Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

[H-O-G]

When are we going to challenge the Roy boArds for war?

 

[Powerman293]

Does Marth move faster when he fox trots then his dash? Because I've tried testing it and it doesn't seem like there's much of a difference.

 

[H-O-G]

And can someone post the link for the part of the boards where I can soar against other Marth players?

 

[Vipermoon]

Does Marth move faster when he fox trots then his dash? Because I've tried testing it and it doesn't seem like there's much of a difference.

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/page-2#post-18647333

A fox trot is simply a dash repeated over and over. A dash transitions into a run. Some characters have a faster dash than run while others have a faster run than dash. Some even have equal dash vs run speeds. This thread in the academy sub-forum in the competitive discussion forum says Marth has a 1.5 initial dash and by the time he's running (16 frames later btw) he's going 1.785. So there you go.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Not sure about the first question, but I do know that a move has to connect in order to register in the queue. So the answer to the second question is a no.

Ok thanks, I was under the impression that you didn't have to actually hit and the move would still go into the queue.

However, I am pretty sure I read somewhere that each Dancing Blade input counted towards the queue. I wish I could remember where I read this...

 

[Gemba Board]

Guys I have a question regarding shields and I don't have my console with me to test. How does the shield breaker value (25) work? And how does it compare to other moves? How much "hp" do shields have?
I'm curious because I've been pondering a setup where we confirm a block using sh db. Wether they block or not, ff nair into jab 1. The latter sequence if connected should be a true combo to setup for jab 1 follow ups. However, sh db into ff nair isn't true and can be blocked. Every opponent I've done this to has adapted to shield nair after sh db. Our setup is blocked, but their shield has now taken a nair and a jab 1.
Now I want to know if an uncharged shield breaker will break a full shield after taking those two attacks. If so, we can bait shields with sh db on hit or whiff. If it doesn't break, how can we adjust to ensure it does break?

 

[Rashyboy05]

Guys I have a question regarding shields and I don't have my console with me to test. How does the shield breaker value (25) work? And how does it compare to other moves? How much "hp" do shields have?
I'm curious because I've been pondering a setup where we confirm a block using sh db. Wether they block or not, ff nair into jab 1. The latter sequence if connected should be a true combo to setup for jab 1 follow ups. However, sh db into ff nair isn't true and can be blocked. Every opponent I've done this to has adapted to shield nair after sh db. Our setup is blocked, but their shield has now taken a nair and a jab 1.
Now I want to know if an uncharged shield breaker will break a full shield after taking those two attacks. If so, we can bait shields with sh db on hit or whiff. If it doesn't break, how can we adjust to ensure it does break?

According to this thread here http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-1-1-1.419235/page-7#post-20270796.
Shield Health is between the numbers 41 and 42.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Is there a major reason why I should choose Marth over Lucina? I know how to handle Marth but against certain characters like Pikachu, Captain Falcon, Zero Suit Samus to name a few, he just doesn't have the edge, Lucina on the other hand, fares better, even if ZSS is a horrible matchup for both Marth/Lucina.

 

[Locuan]

Is there a major reason why I should choose Marth over Lucina? I know how to handle Marth but against certain characters like Pikachu, Captain Falcon, Zero Suit Samus to name a few, he just doesn't have the edge, Lucina on the other hand, fares better, even if ZSS is a horrible matchup for both Marth/Lucina.

It's mainly placebo. I have similar tendencies but anything Lucina can do, Marth can outperform in mostly every situation.

This thread should give you a good idea on their differences:
http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/

 

[Ark of Silence101]

It's mainly placebo. I have similar tendencies but anything Lucina can do Marth can outperform in mostly every situation.

This thread should give you a good idea on their differences:
http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/

I know the differences. What I say is that when play against those characters Marth just doesn't cut it(at least for me).

 

[Locuan]

I know the differences. What I say is that when play against those characters Marth just doesn't cut it(at least for me).

It mainly just comes down to you as a player and your mental state (which are big factors). kj22 can probably tell you why I play Lucina better than Marth and they are basically the same. It's weird, maybe it's just our connections to the character

 

[Ark of Silence101]

It mainly just comes down to you as a player and your mental state (which are big factors). kj22 can probably tell you why I play Lucina better than Marth and they are basically the same. It's weird, maybe it's just our connections to the character

If they were both the same, Lucina wouldn't be seen as just "Training Wheels Marth".

 

[Locuan]

If they were both the same, Lucina wouldn't be seen as just "Training Wheels Marth".

My failure in wording has been spotted. Quickly, abort mission. You are right. It was a blunder on my part. But I'll assume you understood what I was trying to say! Basically, their movement etc etc. is the same (not the properties of their attacks). However, my movement with Lucina is much better than Marth's for some reason.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

My failure in wording has been spotted. Quickly, abort mission. You are right. It was a blunder on my part. But I'll assume you understood what I was trying to say! Basically, their movement etc etc. is the same (not the properties of their attacks). However, my movement with Lucina is much better than Marth's for some reason.

Same goes for me. I fight more fluidly with Lucina because I don't have to worry if I'm gonna hit with the tip and miss the killer blow.

 

[Locuan]

Same goes for me. I fight more fluidly with Lucina because I don't have to worry if I'm gonna hit with the tip and miss the killer blow.

You still should be playing with that mentality though (hitting with the tip of the sword). It's the most efficient way to keep space and be safer-ish against your opponents.

 

[Vipermoon]

You still should be playing with that mentality though (hitting with the tip of the sword). It's the most efficient way to keep space and be safer-ish against your opponents.

What happened to the smash 4 backroom title?

 

[Locuan]

What happened to the smash 4 backroom title?

It's still there. But the Ranking Staff title goes much better with my avatar~

 

[Ark of Silence101]

You still should be playing with that mentality though (hitting with the tip of the sword). It's the most efficient way to keep space and be safer-ish against your opponents.

I know. Still doesn't change the fact my overall performance is better with Lucina than with Marth.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I know. Still doesn't change the fact my overall performance is better with Lucina than with Marth.

I love this, I love how players are all different. See, I am the opposite of you. I perform much better with Marth than Lucina. I do however use Lucina occasionally in the Falcon matchup, and usually in the Pikachu matchup. Maybe it's just a hidden bond/connection to the character that makes me concentrate more when playing Marth. Who knows, but I find it really interesting how players are different like that.

 

[kj22]

I feel like there's less stress on being "perfect" all the time when playing as Lucina, which leads to you subconsciously having different spacing. She also has more shield pushback then Marth's non tippers, which well definitely affect what your opponent does when you hit their shield and what you do when you realize you can actually hit shielding opponents and not cream your pants because it wasn't a tipper. ;o

 

[Bowserboy3]

Which move is better for punishing a shield break with Marth? Tipper Shield Breaker or tipper Fsmash?

Obviously in terms of normal kill moves, it would be impractical to use Shield Breaker over Fsmash due to the fact that tipper Fsmash does double the damage uncharged, and is quicker to come out. But in terms of when the opponent is stunned after a shield break, you have plenty of time to choose between the two. And the fact that tipper Shield Breaker does 1% less at full charge compared to full charge tipper Fsmash leads me to believe that Fsmash would still be the better option. The only reason I could see you wanting to go for Shield Breaker is if you are worried about missing the tip on either move. IIRC, in terms of killing power, fully charged sourspot Shield Breaker will kill earlier than fully charged sourspot Fsmash correct? If this is the case, maybe you should go for Shield Breaker? Of course you could always go for Shield Breaker to avoid staling Fsmash, which will be used to kill more.

It may not really matter. If you get a shield break at around 45%, I suppose it doesn't matter which move you choose, as both would likely kill anyway. Still, i'm interested to know.

 

[Rashyboy05]

Which move is better for punishing a shield break with Marth? Tipper Shield Breaker or tipper Fsmash?

Anything goes since the difference between the two moves in terms of kill power are hardly noticeable if tippered. However, if your opponent 'wobbles' on a shield break like Link or Pikachu then F-Smash may be the better option since there is a chance that tipper Shield Breaker will miss.

 

[Gemba Board]

Which move is better for punishing a shield break with Marth? Tipper Shield Breaker or tipper Fsmash?

Obviously in terms of normal kill moves, it would be impractical to use Shield Breaker over Fsmash due to the fact that tipper Fsmash does double the damage uncharged, and is quicker to come out. But in terms of when the opponent is stunned after a shield break, you have plenty of time to choose between the two. And the fact that tipper Shield Breaker does 1% less at full charge compared to full charge tipper Fsmash leads me to believe that Fsmash would still be the better option. The only reason I could see you wanting to go for Shield Breaker is if you are worried about missing the tip on either move. IIRC, in terms of killing power, fully charged sourspot Shield Breaker will kill earlier than fully charged sourspot Fsmash correct? If this is the case, maybe you should go for Shield Breaker? Of course you could always go for Shield Breaker to avoid staling Fsmash, which will be used to kill more.

It may not really matter. If you get a shield break at around 45%, I suppose it doesn't matter which move you choose, as both would likely kill anyway. Still, i'm interested to know.

Okay, so using the set up I mentioned above, I've been breaking a ton of shields lately. I've been using fsmash and sb both to punish a shield break. Fsmash seems harder to tip and if you sat there charging the whole thing and whiff, the next chance you have to punish must be uncharged. If we're talking in terms of "in the heat of battle" moments, sb is more reliable. It seems to connect on the tip more often. I'm not sure what the hitboxes look like on these two moves but I feel like the tipper range is more lenient than fsmash's. I would opt for sb as the go to punish. Is it optimal? Idk. But both can net you an easy KO, sb just feels easier. Plus you can jump into position and charge in midair for a quicker punish. fsmash can't do that.

 

[Jterr]

Which move is better for punishing a shield break with Marth? Tipper Shield Breaker or tipper Fsmash?

Obviously in terms of normal kill moves, it would be impractical to use Shield Breaker over Fsmash due to the fact that tipper Fsmash does double the damage uncharged, and is quicker to come out. But in terms of when the opponent is stunned after a shield break, you have plenty of time to choose between the two. And the fact that tipper Shield Breaker does 1% less at full charge compared to full charge tipper Fsmash leads me to believe that Fsmash would still be the better option. The only reason I could see you wanting to go for Shield Breaker is if you are worried about missing the tip on either move. IIRC, in terms of killing power, fully charged sourspot Shield Breaker will kill earlier than fully charged sourspot Fsmash correct? If this is the case, maybe you should go for Shield Breaker? Of course you could always go for Shield Breaker to avoid staling Fsmash, which will be used to kill more.

It may not really matter. If you get a shield break at around 45%, I suppose it doesn't matter which move you choose, as both would likely kill anyway. Still, i'm interested to know.

Fully charged shield breaker tipper is one of the strongest moves in the game, and kills earlier than fully charged Tipper F smash I believe. Also, Shieldbreaker has a little more range than F smash.

I love this, I love how players are all different. See, I am the opposite of you. I perform much better with Marth than Lucina. I do however use Lucina occasionally in the Falcon matchup, and usually in the Pikachu matchup. Maybe it's just a hidden bond/connection to the character that makes me concentrate more when playing Marth. Who knows, but I find it really interesting how players are different like that.

Yes I can relate to you. Using Marth is just better for me, and using the original hero of Fire Emblem is just awesome, tipper is awesome, etc. Plus, I've been playing Marth since Melee. Don't get me wrong, Lucina is amazing in her own right, but she was a bit lucky to get in Smash, while Marth has been here since Melee and will never leave. you can use who you prefer according to your play style. Or just who you like better. For me, Marth all the way.

 

[Codaption]

Fully charged fsmash is a little bit stronger than fully charged shield breaker, but shield breaker's tipper spacing is quite a bit more lenient (especially on a wobbling opponent) so it's generally the better punish if you're not quite sure on how to space for tipper fsmash.

 

[Vipermoon]

Shield Breaker is stronger. The extra 20(!) knockback growth vs Fsmash is the reason. Fsmash does at least 25% with 80 base kb and 80 kb growth. SB does 24% with 60 base and 100 growth.

http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-frame-and-hitbox-data-1-0-8.409036/#post-19604153

I was going to explain how this^^ shows the knockback of each move at 0, 50, 100, and 150% proving that Shield Breaker is stronger but this doesn't have charged Fsmash so that wouldn't be fair.

So instead I checked it out myself and just for comparison purposes:

edge of FD: SB kills at 19, Fsmash at 15
center: SB at 38, Fsmash at 39
other side: SB at 50, Fsmash at 53

See what happens? Fsmash is stronger at low percents because of base KB while SB's growth helps it more as percent rises. Especially when you factor in rage, Fsmash is better for low percent shield breaks because rage loves base kb (since it would be modifying more knockback).

But I always use SB because since I use C-stick Attack, there's a small chance that I'll Ftilt by accident while using the A button to Fsmash.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

I have trouble incorporating Marth's up-smash into any battles, when should it be used?

 

[Bowserboy3]

I have trouble incorporating Marth's up-smash into any battles, when should it be used?

Personally, I use Up Smash if I am too far away to punish a laggy move with Foxtrot Cancelled or a Stutter Step Fsmash. Lets say I see a Bowser coming in for a Bowser Bomb half the stage away. I can use this option as a punish option from my run, as I will be too far away to get an Fsmash in for example (of course this will depend on percents, as it will be far more useful at higher percents, when at low percents I could go for a Dancing Blade or a Grab even). I'll also point out that with the right timing, it's possible to stop horizontal recoveries such as Fox Illusion, or even an Extremespeed coming in from the side (assuming that move's late hitbox isn't already out) with this move.

Also, assuming you don't just play For Glory, remember that you can tipper the Usmash through platforms relatively easy, so it's often useful for poking opponents above you. It's also relatively useful as an anti air move, but it's possible to be punished if you miss, so Utilt works in this situation too. I have also gotten a few kills by predicting a jumping ledge getup and using Usmash. On a lot of characters, you can just manage to hit with the tip with the right read and timing.

Other than that, it's not his best move. Personally I think it is better than Dsmash seeing as how weak that is untipped, and is less laggy that said move. Usmash is one of Lucina's better moves, but not for Marth. Still, it isn't a bad move. Just don't think you must incorporate it like other vital moves such as Fair, Nair, Dtilt, Utilt etc. It's not a bad move, but it's not fantastic, so don't worry about not incorporating it all the time.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Hey thanks!

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

(sorry for posting again)
What combos does marth have that don't require throws? as in anything out of his tilts?

 

[Vipermoon]

Yes, Usmash is purely a punish move. You can also use it out of shield (jump-cancelled Usmash).

Keep Dolphin Slash in mind though. If you have to run up to your opponent, think about what you have time to do. DS is frame 5 and Usmash is frame 13 (plus at least 1 frame to cancel jump). You may want to DS instead, especially if you prefer the opponent off-stage (or they are already near the ledge where it will kill earlier than Usmash will).

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Isn't Dolphin Slash invincible, and can you angle it?

 

[Vipermoon]

Isn't Dolphin Slash invincible, and can you angle it?

Yes and yes. From in the air (including while you are using it to break out of jabs and stuff) it is invincible from frames 1-6. From the ground, it is invincible from 4-6.

You can angle it forward or backward/straight up or not angle it (then it will go slightly diagonal).

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Huh, thanks a lot for you help (and i live in michigan also! my new pork city thing is just a mother reference!)

 

[A_Kae]

Dolphin Slash is actually intangible on frames 4-5 and 1-5.

Edit: Sources: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth and http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/144/marth (subactions 279 and 27D)

 

[Jterr]

Dolphin Slash is actually intangible on frames 4-5 and 1-5.

Edit: Sources: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth and http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/144/marth (subactions 279 and 27D)

Really? Makes sense since Dolphin slash is one of the fastest moves in the game on startup.
Great to see another loyal Marth main :D

 

[Nyhte]

(sorry for posting again)
What combos does marth have that don't require throws? as in anything out of his tilts?

From my experience and the combo threads;

Falling up air > up tilt is an awesome combo

fair>ftilt; Sometimes fair topples or knocks down an opponent and you can follow with a f tilt
1st hit of nair combos into other things; ex. 1st hit nair > jab 1 > f smash
SH db1>1st hit nair>jab>fsmash too but is punishable vs. opponents that know about it

do keep in mind DB can be canceled by pressing other buttons like A, so you can DB 1-3 on shield, (or you think the other DB hits will miss) then use another attack like up tilt or down tilt

 

[Vipermoon]

Dolphin Slash is actually intangible on frames 4-5 and 1-5.

Edit: Sources: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth and http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/144/marth (subactions 279 and 27D)

Well okay then. That's what I get for trusting Shaya and not checking.

Jterr I like your location

__________________________

Edit: Did anyone know that if you Jab and hold the A button it automatically does Jab 2? I never noticed that.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Whoa thats a mind**** about the jab

 

[Jterr]

Well okay then. That's what I get for trusting Shaya and not checking.

Jterr I like your location

__________________________

Edit: Did anyone know that if you Jab and hold the A button it automatically does Jab 2? I never noticed that.

Haha thanks Akaneia for the win.
Which of Marth's games have you played? I've only played Shadow Dragon so far, hoping to play New Mystery of The Emblem sometime.