Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

[Vipermoon]

Yes true combos.

In the 100s, the knockback creates enough hitstun and those moves come out fast enough that they eventually combo. Tipper jab 1 puts Marth (for example) into tumble knockback at 122%. Look for things to start comboing after that.

 

[Project_B]

Okay, that should certainly help out with my Marth, and I will try to find out how to get even more confirmed moves out of jab 1 once I can. Thanks for the data!

 

[ElementUser]

How does one win and approach a Marth vs. Fox matchup? It's one of my matchups that I always have a difficult time with simply because Fox can either laser spam camp, or wait for my attack first/dodge through most of my moveset (e.g. rolling through Jab, dash-attack/dash-grab mixups while Fox's speedy attacks are difficult to punish). Plus, Fox is short so aerials have a harder time hitting him while he's grounded.

 

[Langston777]

bring him to smashville and throw him offstage

once you eliminate the fox's attempt to approach like a dumbass (full hop aerials or dash attack) you'll pretty much be on even ground. fox will combo you a lot so keep him out, per usual. also, he'll either struggle to kill you or get nair to upsmash or something. meanwhile you can kill him with dancing blade at the edge of the stage sub 80%; he's very light. edgegaurding him can get finnicky with the ledge snap thing but if you force him to up+B it's 'free' damage. keeping this in mind, try to practice intercepting illusion with fair.

i like to think that shielding is very helpful in this match up. especially at kill% so you don't get random upsmashed (which you can punish on block with kara fsmash i believe.)

 

[Halfminded]

Well I was playing one just a bit earlier, and the laser camp mostly just requires staying patient and getting in slowly. If you're on opposite ends of the stage with ground lasers rolling in, walk to around mid stage is a good start. Granted, you'll have to eat a few lasers to get there, but it's better than rushing in and getting caught by dash attack/grab/jabbed.

I still consider myself pretty mediocre, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

Once you're at mid range they'll most likely cease lasering. If he doesn't, I usually empty hop at middle stage to fake coming in with fair but land where I started. That'll usually coerce them into stopping. Once he does so, from the corner he can: Dash attack, Dash through, Shield, Roll, Jump, or wait. Both dash options can be stuffed with a well timed dtilt at that range. If the Fox shields I like to walk up again and look for a tipper jab on shield. If you hit his shield, look into side B/dtilt pressure or maybe get a grab out. While you're walking up you can usually react to the roll with turnaround ftilt or side B depending on how far from his roll range you are. Fox jumping out of the corner can be challenged with some spaced nairs or fairs. Uair works as well if he full hops over you.


Just to reiterate, I could be spouting nonsense right now and not know it, so hopefully someone more knowledgeable looks over my post.

 

[Shaya]

Marth v Fox match up is kinda a melee mindset. The difference in speed/damage/comboability is actually quite similar too.

You need to be patient and pick the right times for a punish, because our punishes on Fox are insanely good as a lightweight fast faller without disjoints. He shoots lasers, dash attacks us, and it isn't fun; shield is your friend though, although at early percent he gets good follow ups; once a certain point approaches smart use of shield will bring you more opportunities. You also need to know what you can punish and what with optimally; don't try to beat bair on shield because it's silly-safe, don't try to beat up tilt on shield after the first one.
But basically get the right jab, up tilt, up air or fair (or any aerial really) with a sizable amount of rage? You're virtually one-shotting a character like Fox in these conditions (I could envisage fast fall up air reverse up tilt -> fsmash near a ledge being a zero-to-death)

 

[Halfminded]

fast fall up air reverse up tilt -> fsmash

That in itself sounds super dirty and incredibly satisfying

 

[Vipermoon]

Shaya got it right.

My specialty kill moves against Fox are Ftilts, DS edgeguarding, and forward DB at the ledge.

Melee-like juggles that 1.1.0 improved are a great way to get to that early kill percent range Marth wants Fox at.

Uthrow works well against him despite his fall speed but you are doing it wrong if you let him live that long.

Of course Fox is pretty overwhelming at times (many times) but honestly you can say that for virtually any character vs. Fox.

 

[HFlash]

How does one win and approach a Marth vs. Fox matchup? It's one of my matchups that I always have a difficult time with simply because Fox can either laser spam camp, or wait for my attack first/dodge through most of my moveset (e.g. rolling through Jab, dash-attack/dash-grab mixups while Fox's speedy attacks are difficult to punish). Plus, Fox is short so aerials have a harder time hitting him while he's grounded.

Something to add (although not having to do with approaching) is ledge guarding. In tough MUs like this, you HAVE to learn how to ledge guard these characters with strong neutrals and bad recoveries. Try going to practice mode and practice spiking or fair fox's up b, and fsmashing/ ftilting fox's side B. If no mistakes are made, once fox is off the stage and especially if he has no second jump, he should not be getting back on stage.

 

[Halfminded]

I have an inquiry about Pikachu. When looking to stuff Quick-attacks, what move do you use to hit it? I just played one that QA'd a bit too much into me, but I didn't figure out what I should throw at it before I lost.

 

[ElementUser]

I have an inquiry about Pikachu. When looking to stuff Quick-attacks, what move do you use to hit it? I just played one that QA'd a bit too much into me, but I didn't figure out what I should throw at it before I lost.

I think it really depends on his spacing on the Quick Attack because it doesn't have that much delay when it ends. The Kuroganehammer website doesn't have the landing lag frame data on Pikachu, but I would definitely use Dolphin Slash if Pikachu spaces his Quick Attack too close to your character. If not, probably either UTilt or FTilt if Pikachu is still within range of your attacks without moving after his Quick Attack ends.

Your option to punish his Quick Attack would also be largely dependent on your reaction time because sometimes you're simply unsure of where he'll end up & react in time to punish. If he lands too far away you might not be able to punish it.

 

[Langston777]

I have an inquiry about Pikachu. When looking to stuff Quick-attacks, what move do you use to hit it? I just played one that QA'd a bit too much into me, but I didn't figure out what I should throw at it before I lost.

not good for marth because he doesn't have a move that throws out active frames for pikachu to fall right into
something to know about QA is that it stretchs pika's hurtbox horizontally a lot
if he QA's into you and tries to do both hits, you can uair on reaction and hopefully catch the 2nd attack

other than that, upsmash will cover a lot of the directions pikachu can go with it, but you'll have to predict where he'll be.
pivot grabbing can catch him out of it too.
just try shielding it until you get a sense of where he's going with it. it is punishable, but difficult to do because the punish window is small and you have to react to where he lands.

 

[Vipermoon]

Fsmash is probably the most useful against it but I'd usually do nothing and wait (in shield or something).

 

[Halfminded]

The Kuroganehammer website doesn't have the landing lag frame data on Pikachu, but I would definitely use Dolphin Slash if Pikachu spaces his Quick Attack too close to your character. If not, probably either UTilt or FTilt if Pikachu is still within range of your attacks without moving after his Quick Attack ends.

if he QA's into you and tries to do both hits, you can uair on reaction and hopefully catch the 2nd attack

other than that, upsmash will cover a lot of the directions pikachu can go with it, but you'll have to predict where he'll be.
pivot grabbing can catch him out of it too..

I was considering both upB and uSmash as options, though I was running with my tap jump off controls so I had to discard that idea temporarily. I suppose DS OoS under a top platform would be decently safe every once in a while?

Also, I assume the uair would be in the case of an upwards retreating 2nd half of QA?

Fsmash is probably the most useful against it but I'd usually do nothing and wait (in shield or something).

I waited too, but I waited too long


Edit: On the topic of Fsmash, how reliable is getting the hit on the overhead arc from under a platform?
Edit2: Just did a few tests in Training. It seems that I get that stupid sparks animation when you just barely graze their hitbox on a lot of humanoid chars (Lucina/Roy/ZSS/Fox) and Fsmashing at the same distance underneath was hitting inconsistenly, due to the idle animations shifting hitboxes.
Hitting it off a missed tech bounce was pretty easy, though it had a tendency to get the hit that sends backwards.

 

[Vipermoon]

I was considering both upB and uSmash as options, though I was running with my tap jump off controls so I had to discard that idea temporarily. I suppose DS OoS under a top platform would be decently safe every once in a while?

Also, I assume the uair would be in the case of an upwards retreating 2nd half of QA?


I waited too, but I waited too long


Edit: On the topic of Fsmash, how reliable is getting the hit on the overhead arc from under a platform?
Edit2: Just did a few tests in Training. It seems that I get that stupid sparks animation when you just barely graze their hitbox on a lot of humanoid chars (Lucina/Roy/ZSS/Fox) and Fsmashing at the same distance underneath was hitting inconsistenly, due to the idle animations shifting hitboxes.
Hitting it off a missed tech bounce was pretty easy, though it had a tendency to get the hit that sends backwards.

It's pretty unreliable. I wish it matched the animation it would help Marth sooo much on what is already his best stage no doubt.

But the funny thing is it seems that anytime I go to a tournament I get at least one of those. Either off a tech roll read (while their hurtboxes are still low and rolling) or a missed tech which is the easiest. On Lylat though (imo another great Marth stage) if you are on higher ground due to the tilting it's basically guaranteed to hit. I get them more often on Lylat actually.

 

[Halfminded]

It's pretty unreliable. I wish it matched the animation it would help Marth sooo much on what is already his best stage no doubt.

But the funny thing is anytime I go to a tournament I get at least one of those. Either off a tech roll read (while their hurtboxes are still low and rolling) or a missed tech which is the easiest. On Lylat though (imo another great Marth stage) if you are on higher ground due to the tilting it's basically guaranteed to hit. I get them more often on Lylat actually.

I've never been so sad to see mismatched animations before. But I guess in the heat of battle things have a chance of lining up by themselves without any thought. It did seem a lot easier to hit it when I simulated a tech situation rather than having the cpu just stand there.

 

[ElementUser]

Is there any reason to use Marth's Dash Attack at all? I feel that it's extremely situational because it's likely an opponent can land & shield if you're trying to cover landings with it (which is like the only reason I see it good for).

 

[Langston777]

Is there any reason to use Marth's Dash Attack at all? I feel that it's extremely situational because it's likely an opponent can land & shield if you're trying to cover landings with it (which is like the only reason I see it good for).

sometimes i do it when an opponent tries to grab the ledge by falling from above. this can apply to someone recovering with a double jump or retreating to the ledge to escape getting juggled. it reaches further and quicker than most people expect, and tipper sends them straight out so if they already used their second jump they're probably dead.

that's about it.

 

[HFlash]

Is there any reason to use Marth's Dash Attack at all? I feel that it's extremely situational because it's likely an opponent can land & shield if you're trying to cover landings with it (which is like the only reason I see it good for).

The only reason to use it is punish someone when your other punish tools won't reach/come out quick enough. Other wise, it is a pretty unsafe move with a small reward/risk ratio. It was a god awful move to use in brawl because DB was always better option.

 

[Shaya]

Dash attack has a niche that it covers the most amount of horizontal range we can muster in 13 frames and that it's hitbox properly starts low to the ground (unlike jab/ftilt).
Contrast 6 frames of dashing into db1 at 13 frames, dash attack is way more.
As it strikes low better than most of our moveset it's good for grounded follow ups from attacks and catching people near the ledge.
It's decently powerful, similar strength to our back air (it has higher growth and less base), so it kills in those situations.

If they decided to be merciful and buff dash attack (it isn't our most useless move, down smash is by far) in ways of start up or cool down it would actually be kinda really good.

 

[Langston777]

just look at ikes dash attack

imo that move completely changed the marth/ike mu

it's gotta be one of the best dash attacks in the game now, stand alone and utility wise.

 

[Shaya]

I wouldn't think so, but it sure is a standalone solid move in it's own right.

The fast dash attacks will basically always be "the best" though:
He may give a run for his money on the slightly slower ones:

 

[Xelion]

Knockback wise, I think Ike's dash attack is the best, it does have more range and priority than most dash attacks. Only downfall is it comes out on frame 15, and the end lag if you don't hit usually leaves Ike open for a punish.

 

[Project_B]

As far as I know, MK has the best dash attack due to how it can convert into an up air string, either for damage or to finish off with an up B for the KO.

 

[Halfminded]

This isn't specifically Marth related, but it's a tiny question anyways. What was the series of inputs for a pivot grab? I did them all the time before, but it seems I forgot how to do it.

 

[A_Kae]

This isn't specifically Marth related, but it's a tiny question anyways. What was the series of inputs for a pivot grab? I did them all the time before, but it seems I forgot how to do it.

During a dash, press the opposite direction and grab at the same time. If you get a pivot ftilt, you pressed grab too late, if you get a dash grab, you pressed grab too early.

 

[Halfminded]

During a dash, press the opposite direction and grab at the same time. If you get a pivot ftilt, you pressed grab too late, if you get a dash grab, you pressed grab too early.

Strange...For some reason I've been remembering it as a button roll from grab -> opposite direction, yet I've been coming up with ftilts.
At least I wasn't too far off then, it will just need a few minutes of tinkering. Thanks!

 

[Powerman293]

Is doing a dance trot dash grab a better mix up then a pivot grab?

Also, in the Shiek matchup, would Rage Tipper Fsmash really be the only thing Marth has against Sheik?

 

[Shaya]

Disjoints are a pretty good thing to have.
As is invincible fast out of shield options. Our tilts are all very nice in their own right and jab is similar grouping (different niche of stuff but strong at it).
Tipper kill power and up throw KOs...

Otherwise, yep.

 

[Langston777]

dance trotting is more for baiting out an attack or option directly in front of marth, and you can also fair/nair/fsmash/anything out of trot so it's more flexible of a movement option. marth's pivotgrab is really only going to catch rolls.

i don't think fsmash is the only thing marth has against shiek. though it's a pretty rough match up, a well-placed SB or fsmash is just what you need to turn the tide of a match that's not going in your favor. shiek doesn't really have that sort of early-stock threat against marth unless they get a tight BF/usmash read, but even then it's not going to kill as soon as marth's fsmash.

i'm not experienced vs shiek but i think your best bet is to get her in the air and juggle her the best you can. then condition her to shield and punish your aerials on block. then look for ways to implement SB. i don't think shiek can just go balls deep with offense in the neutral vs marth so you're going to want to catch onto their defensive habits

 

[Emblem Lord]

During a dash, press the opposite direction and grab at the same time. If you get a pivot ftilt, you pressed grab too late, if you get a dash grab, you pressed grab too early.

hahahah

NO!!

Grab first THEN turn around.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOB!!!

Love you guys

 

[Ako.]

So I never knew and just found out that there are vulnerability frames on on ledge snaps from watching this video.

Have you guys punished ledge snaps with marth? and with what moves? What do you think are the best moves to punish ledge snaps? Is it possible to punish with a f-smash (thinking of getting early kills by punishing ledge snaps with a tipper f-smash)

 

[SilverForUbers]

So I never knew and just found out that there are vulnerability frames on on ledge snaps from watching this video.

Have you guys punished ledge snaps with marth? and with what moves? What do you think are the best moves to punish ledge snaps? Is it possible to punish with a f-smash (thinking of getting early kills by punishing ledge snaps with a tipper f-smash)

I think fsmash would only work on certain stages, as it seems to punish the snap your attack has to go through the stage.

 

[Vipermoon]

With Fsmash you can only punish the second frame (the 1st is most likely too low for Fsmash) so it's essentially 1 frame of vulnerability. Landing Dair can get the 1st frame due to the sword but Dair lasts 1 frame so it's still 1 frame. On stage Marth isn't too good at this.

I can see run off Bair and DB1 working much better. If they tech Bair you DS them and keep going (like DS, ledge release Fair, continue), after DB1 they don't have to tech and you just DS. Or run off and DS (I already do this to Fox's recovery and some others) back on stage will also expose both frames.

 

[Codaption]

Wait, hold up...there're two vulnerability frames? Based on the sources I'd heard from and the discussions I'd seen, I got the impression there was just one. Was this something that was effected when they nerfed the invincibility of rolls by one frame, or was it always like this?

 

[Fastninjamichael]

I have recently picked up Marth and I have noticed that I'm not bad with him. But the problem is that I'm not exactly sure how to get better with Marth. Any "Tips"? Also I'm putting a random pull down for the fun of it.

 

[Locuan]

@ Fastninjamichael welcome to Smashboards. I moved your post to the Marth Question and Answer Thread. Please use this thread whenever you have questions regarding Marth's gameplay. In terms of improving with Marth, I recommend that you go through all the threads in the Marth Competitive Resource Thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/read-me-marths-competitive-resource-thread.382874/

 

[Vipermoon]

I have recently picked up Marth and I have noticed that I'm not bad with him. But the problem is that I'm not exactly sure how to get better with Marth. Any "Tips"? Also I'm putting a random pull down for the fun of it.

Welcome

 

[Bowserboy3]

I have a question about Marth. Can somebody explain this statement to me? I'm having trouble understanding it. It's from Marth's Smash Wiki page...

"The smaller units of distance compared to Brawl means he has more disjoint relative to his hurtboxes as well more relative as the cast, but it reduces the reach of those attacks overall."

I am kinda confused with most of this statement. Surely having smaller units of distance would mean less disjoint, right? What does this mean, am I getting things mixed up?

 

[Halfminded]

I have a question about Marth. Can somebody explain this statement to me? I'm having trouble understanding it. It's from Marth's Smash Wiki page...

"The smaller units of distance compared to Brawl means he has more disjoint relative to his hurtboxes as well more relative as the cast, but it reduces the reach of those attacks overall."

I am kinda confused with most of this statement. Surely having smaller units of distance would mean less disjoint, right? What does this mean, am I getting things mixed up?

Edit: Looking at the wiki excerpt again, that use of reach is incorrect I think? Should be replaced with "range".

I remember one of Shaya's posts earlier here

Reach = disjoint. People tend to think of range as horizontal or vertical distances, but that's not what I'm trying to say when I can vouch for Marth's moves having more 'reach', the hitboxes in relation to his sword are going further than they do in Brawl, but for all we know Marth could be stepping significantly less forward when he attacks in comparison to other games.

Basically you can think of it like the sword itself is longer than before, but at the same time Marth does not extend his arm/body as much as before, resulting in a move with less range than past iterations.