Legend of Zelda The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword - NO SPOILERS, USE THE SPOILER THREAD PLEASE

[LLDL]

I wonder if Nintendo did a cease production of skyward sword as soon as they found out about this glitch, or if there was a day or weeks period where they just continued to produced glitchy games even with that knowledge

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

About the Glitch:

http://www.siliconera.com/2011/12/15/nintendo-offers-to-fix-broken-skyward-sword-save-files/

Real classy from Ninty. We can probably expect an apology soon enough, too.

 

[Jakandsig]

Ahh Zelda Skyward Sowrd, flopped on Gamespot, has a game breaking glitvh. looks like Zelda took an arrow to the knee.

 

[Jakandsig]

I find it hilarious Nintendo didn't attempt to patch this game breaking glitch, but some folks did it themselves.

Good stuff, Nintendo.

Bethesda has not taught them yet. Everyone knows that when you patch a glitch there must be addditional glitches after the patch.

 

[Jet300]

My brother threw me in the garbage for telling him the spoilers in Skyward sword

 

[Spire]

Why would you do that? I side with your brother.

Edit: Hehe, though I wouldn't have done the same to my brother.

 

[Jet300]

Why would you do that? I side with your brother.

Edit: Hehe, though I wouldn't have done the same to my brother.

Well, my brother is a HUGE zelda nerd. and he told me "do not tell me the ending in Skyward sword." But the only thing i told him that ganon was not in this game. Man he's a real Zelda nerd.

 

[Spire]

Well seeing as how Eiji Aonuma spoiled that Ganon tidbit back in the summer, your brother is just ill-informed. Most internet Zelda nerds I know were well aware of that for months.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Yeah, the lack of Ganondorf was pretty clear to me as well.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I've been thinking about the 3D Zeldas, and one thing that really bugs me about recent Zelda games is the emphasis on Link being a "hero." That's not a bad thing itself, but one of the consequences is that Link has "hero's equipment." This started in Wind Waker; instead of Link's tunic being something he just wore, it became "hero's clothing," and we've had the same pattern since then: Link starts in his civilian attire, then puts on his tunic, and there's no going back. I miss the new tunics that LttP and OoT gave you.

The bigger problem is the sword though. Upgrading the Master Sword in LttP was awesome, and getting the Biggoron Sword in OoT and upgrading the Hero's Sword in MM were fun too. Now though, it's THE MASTER SWORD. THE END. Yeah, you can talk about awakening the sword's power, but in reality, you could replace awakening the sword with collecting three more pendants and get the same effect, just a reason to tramp through more dungeons.

TP remedied this trend somewhat by letting you keep your original sword and giving you the Zora suit, and I was pretty disappointed to see that SS didn't continue that. Instead of red and blue tunics, we got a scale and earrings.

This post could go on for much longer, but the basic problem is that Zelda feels like it's getting trapped in its own mythology. The tunics may seem like a small and (admittedly) nitpicky point, but I see it in the same vein of TP and SS also including a Temple of Time, for reasons that aren't entirely clear other than OoT had one too.

 

[Spire]

I think with Miyamoto's departure from the series as of the 25th anniversary, he really wanted to round out the lore he cared about. We now have a new platform from which the series can evolve from. Aonuma for the first time ever is really in charge now. Zelda is going to enter a new experimental phase methinks.

 

[Luigitoilet]

well, I really just plain don't know what to think of these Miyamoto quotes as it seems every site is translating things differently or misinterpreting them but here's another one

http://gnvr.co.uk/2011/12/13/miyamoto-open-to-working-with-retro-studios-for-zelda/

 

[GwJ]

I'm kinda iffy on Retro making a Zelda game. Here's what I think would happen if Retro made the next Zelda.

-Amazing level design
-Lowered quality of storyline but increased emphasis on lore

So basically, it'd get much better dungeons than we've seen. But it would also have worse lore, but more of it.

 

[theeboredone]

Zelda games had a high quality of story to begin with?

 

[kupo15]

Lore post

Yea I agree. Zelda has changed in a strange way. I also feel like the game makes the side quest and bonus upgrade/items/easter eggs aspects of game a requirement instead of an accomplishment. They program "hidden stuff" in the game but tell you how to do it, get it whatever. A big example is the goddess walls.

-Lowered quality of storyline but increased emphasis on lore

I have been thinking about this emphasis on story in video games a lot recently. I think its a curse and a negative thing to make a game with the main emphasis being about telling a compelling story. Why does everyone care so much about a compelling story? What you do in the game tells the story in itself!

Its no doubt that this gen is the catalyst for games evolving into "interact movies" and Zelda has jumped ship sadly. The problem with focusing on a compelling story is that after you've played the game once, the story becomes less exciting and monotonous because the story has been told. If the game isn't that fun to play because the story took priority and importance, then the replay value and value of the game goes down.

This is probably the main reason why I enjoy replaying older games over and over again. I play them again because of the incredible attention to gameplay, not because I want to see the cutscenes and story told again. I dread the cutscenes in OOT but I play it because its so damn fun!

 

[Jam Stunna]

I honestly think that games are a really bad vehicle for storytelling. Game play and story progression are almost always split up because there really is no good way to integrate them.

And as much as I'd love to see Retro's take on Zelda, I'd be infinitely more interested in them working on a new IP.

 

[Luigitoilet]

There is like zero plot exposition inbetween dungeons 1-6. Am I playing a different Skyward Sword than everyone else? In what way is this game an interactive movie? The cutscenes are still OoT-primitive and this game has way way less of the needless plot dumping than TP, WW and even OoT which had Sheik and the owl constantly spewing themetalk at the player between every dungeon.

The game was so refreshing to me precisely for this reason. The first hour is pretty cinematic, sure, but the biggest bulk of the game is pretty constant and mostly uninterrupted gameplay (with a lot of padding, no doubt about that). In this game, more than any other 3D Zelda I feel that the plot is mostly an accessory to the experience of the game.

 

[ZIO]

I find myself at a sad position. I'd like to play through hero mode, but there's just some texts you cannot skip. If not for that, than I'd be more than happy and possibly enjoying the game, itself.

I'd hack my wii for the text speed codes, but I really don't want to hack it. If I had a spare wii, then yes, but not this one. I've had it since launch.

 

[theeboredone]

It's really not that hard. There are many guides that take you through it via step by step process. Unless you don't wanna hack it for other reasons.

 

[kys]

Yea I agree. Zelda has changed in a strange way. I also feel like the game makes the side quest and bonus upgrade/items/easter eggs aspects of game a requirement instead of an accomplishment. They program "hidden stuff" in the game but tell you how to do it, get it whatever. A big example is the goddess walls.

I have been thinking about this emphasis on story in video games a lot recently. I think its a curse and a negative thing to make a game with the main emphasis being about telling a compelling story. Why does everyone care so much about a compelling story? What you do in the game tells the story in itself!

Its no doubt that this gen is the catalyst for games evolving into "interact movies" and Zelda has jumped ship sadly. The problem with focusing on a compelling story is that after you've played the game once, the story becomes less exciting and monotonous because the story has been told. If the game isn't that fun to play because the story took priority and importance, then the replay value and value of the game goes down.

This is probably the main reason why I enjoy replaying older games over and over again. I play them again because of the incredible attention to gameplay, not because I want to see the cutscenes and story told again. I dread the cutscenes in OOT but I play it because its so damn fun!

^^^This +10000. I've been thinking this for a long time but I couldn't think of the words to coherently put it together.

 

[kupo15]

I honestly think that games are a really bad vehicle for storytelling. Game play and story progression are almost always split up because there really is no good way to integrate them.

I agree

There is like zero plot exposition inbetween dungeons 1-6. Am I playing a different Skyward Sword than everyone else? In what way is this game an interactive movie? The cutscenes are still OoT-primitive and this game has way way less of the needless plot dumping than TP, WW and even OoT which had Sheik and the owl constantly spewing themetalk at the player between every dungeon.

The game was so refreshing to me precisely for this reason. The first hour is pretty cinematic, sure, but the biggest bulk of the game is pretty constant and mostly uninterrupted gameplay (with a lot of padding, no doubt about that). In this game, more than any other 3D Zelda I feel that the plot is mostly an accessory to the experience of the game.

Well then what is your idea of the story telling part of a game? One of the biggest raves about this is game is an increased attention to story telling.

As far as the OOT sheik cutscenes, they really are much different than the ones of SS. Because OOT wasn't nearly as hand holdy as SS is, there was a heavy reliance on the players skill to progress the game. Each sheik cutscene does three things, it teaches you backstory to the land of Hyrule, it allows you to progress by you learning a song, and most importantly it gives you a valuable warp point. Even though the cutscene in itself and learning the song has lost its appeal compared to the first time I played the game, the reward of a warp point gives me a sense of satisfaction even to this day because I earned it, not because I was told exactly how to get there every step of the way by Fi or other NPCs.

So basically, my point is that cutscenes in OOT rewards the player in a big way instead of what SS does which is to show a cutscene for the sake of progression.

The owl on the other hand, yes he is annoying, but you can skip all of his text. Important to replay value and also important if the player doesn't want to be force fed hints like SS does.

I find myself at a sad position. I'd like to play through hero mode, but there's just some texts you cannot skip. If not for that, than I'd be more than happy and possibly enjoying the game, itself.

I'd hack my wii for the text speed codes, but I really don't want to hack it. If I had a spare wii, then yes, but not this one. I've had it since launch.

if you have brawl, you can launch Homebrew without hacking your wii

^^^This +10000. I've been thinking this for a long time but I couldn't think of the words to coherently put it together.

Thanks! :D

 

[Luigitoilet]

I agree

Well then what is your idea of the story telling part of a game?

I don't understand this question.

One of the biggest raves about this is game is an increased attention to story telling.

I don't care. What does that have to do with anything I said? I don't remember advocating or supporting this statement.

As far as the OOT sheik cutscenes, they really are much different than the ones of SS. Because OOT wasn't nearly as hand holdy as SS is, there was a heavy reliance on the players skill to progress the game. Each sheik cutscene does three things, it teaches you backstory to the land of Hyrule, it allows you to progress by you learning a song, and most importantly it gives you a valuable warp point. Even though the cutscene in itself and learning the song has lost its appeal compared to the first time I played the game, the reward of a warp point gives me a sense of satisfaction even to this day because I earned it, not because I was told exactly how to get there every step of the way by Fi or other NPCs.

I'm talking about narrative exposition and the game trying to engage a person as a "reader" or a "viewer", not the game telling you what to do as a "player". SS' insistent and overbearing "player" handholding is certainly a bad thing, but it's not at all what I'm even talking about.

For the bulk of SS, the cutscenes are generally and completely about function rather than supporting the narrative or thematic arc of the game, (i.e. the camera swooping over a new section of land, showing you the layout, or something notable the player can interact with). As Jam said, in practically every video game, the narrative is practically separated from the game. This game isn't an exception, but I find that it's a gigantic improvement over the tons of needless exposition in Twilight Princess. Sure, it took one step forward and then another, different step back...in that now instead of a bunch of characters I don't care about telling me to do mundane plot exposition stuff and constricting the general fun of the game world, Skyward Sword has a couple of characters and a ****load of menus and text notices telling me that "yes, the boss key is used for the boss' door, I just caught a butterfly ISN'T THAT GREAT, NOW YOU HAVE 21 OF THEM. SEE, 20 PLUS 1 IS 21!"

But anyways, I'm diverting from my original point. Outside of Fi and the general constant guidance of the game, I found that Skyward Sword had me enaged in its world with little to no major plot progression for the first 1/3 of the game. At times I had the same whimsy and involvement in the world as I do with a great movie or great book and that was in spite of the constant, but the game accomplished it without removing me as a player for any significant amount of time. Compared to TRUE "interactive movies/animes/mangas/novels" like Heavy Rain, MGS series, Final Fantasy, Planescape, Riven, etcetcetc Skyward Sword is practically arcade-like.

That's why the first 6 dungeons and so are great. When the inevitable cutscene dump came after that, I was not weary and even intently interested because I'd spent so much time "playing" in the gameworld rather than passively taking the narrative presentation of the game in.

 

[theeboredone]

Lol my take after...let's see if I remember this...the third dungeon? After that, I just kept thinking to myself, "Why isn't anything else happening?" Cause Dungeons 4-6 seemed as if...you were just going through the motions and I had to constantly remind myself why I was doing this.

Also, Gamespot's GOTY nominees are pretty funny.

http://www.gamespot.com/best-of-2011-awards/game-of-the-year/index.html?page=1

Definitely not part of the "in" crowd with no Zelda or Uncharted. Though I can say Ghost Trick is definitely a true unique experience that deserves the limelight.

 

[Luigitoilet]

Lol my take after...let's see if I remember this...the third dungeon? After that, I just kept thinking to myself, "Why isn't anything else happening?" Cause Dungeons 4-6 seemed as if...you were just going through the motions and I had to constantly remind myself why I was doing this.

Just going through the motions of what exactly? Of playing the game? You really need some weak plot Mcguffin to continue being engaged in a video game?

 

[theeboredone]

Because I prefer my games to have plots? I don't understand why I have to play 12 hours of the game to get some story out of it. This is why the game gets criticized for its pacing. They bum rush you with so much stuff in the beginning, and then it dies for the longest time. I've said this since day 1, and I'll say it again. Unlike Mario, Zelda has always had potential for great story telling/lore, and they continue to fail me. I'm probably in the minority, but they have yet to make me give a crap about the history of Zelda.

Really, the most immersive experience for me was MM, because everywhere I went, something was changing or people were acting differently. I gave two cents about the NPCs and their woes. What does this game offer to me? This game's pacing is so horrible, I just get cut off from the game. And that's why I feel like I'm going through the motions.

 

[Luigitoilet]

fair enough I guess. I'll never understand "there's too much gameplay going on in this video game, I need some cutscenes" but to each his own.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I agree with theboredone to an extent. It's not so important to me that a game have a plot, but if you're going to have one, then it needs to be delivered properly. You said it yourself, LT, that's there's almost no exposition between dungeons 1-6. The story is dumped in the beginning and the end.

This was a problem for me, not because I expect Zelda to have some epic story (and I still don't see what everyone was raving about story-wise with SS, but that's okay, it's not like I was expecting something great), but because I was never given a compelling reason for some of the ridiculous tasks that had to be completed in this game. Alot of the middle of the game was stuff to push the hour count up, not actually move the game forward.

In any case, I'm at the final boss fight now. I'm going to finish it today and marinate for a while, then write up a review and post it in User Blogs.

 

[etecoon]

I had no problems with the story, my biggest problem with the narrative of the game is that the entire game is basically one long tutorial. fi is constantly telling you what to do even if she's told you the same thing before, other NPCs constantly butt in and make you listen to their explanations, the camera constantly zooms in on things because you'd NEVER have figured it out yourself. it's honestly proving to be a real grind to try and play through this game again because it seems hellbent on spending more time holding my hand than allowing me to play, it's infuriating

 

[Jam Stunna]

Yeah, as much as I want the challenge, there's no way I'm doing Hero Mode.

 

[ZIO]

I'm sucking it up and doing it, lol.

Reached the 2nd dungeon.

Wish there wasn't required texts and that everything could be skipped. Oh well.


I done replayed all the other Zelda game besides Twilight Princess (which i actually plan on doing after playing SS) and I dealt with their ups and downs. I can cope.

 

[Jam Stunna]

LttP is up next for me

 

[Luigitoilet]

Why don't you guys apply those hacks to the game?

I've only played TP once. I will probably replay SS before I ever play TP again.

Actually, I've only ever finished WW once as well but played through the first half of the game many times.

 

[ZIO]

I don't apply hacks because I don't want to hack my only Wii.

If I ever come across a spare one, I'll do it.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Actually, I've only ever finished WW once as well but played through the first half of the game many times.

Same. Why Triforce hunt why

 

[MuraRengan]

fair enough I guess. I'll never understand "there's too much gameplay going on in this video game, I need some cutscenes" but to each his own.

I've never liked your position on storyline in games.

Good games can be like storybooks in their own way, and it's perfectly fine for them to be that way because gaming presents a unique form of storytelling experience that is different from books and movies.

As it stands, gaming can be one dimensional, consisting of solely gameplay, but I'm sure LoZ would never have blossomed if they gave us a game with wireframes fighting enemies and going through dungeons over and over. By itself, the gameplay of LoZ is average, sub-par even. LoZ owes a lot of its success to the two other critical dimensions of the gaming experience: design and story.

Design, being art styles and character models and whatnot, is a given, it will always be there because it is a necessity. The only removable dimension is story. But story, though removable, is the main reason Zelda is as big as it is now. The large portion of Zelda's fanbase plays for the story, because the story is the only thing that refreshes the gameplay. Remove story, and you no longer have Zelda, you no longer have the same game at all.

I can see personally not thinking story is necessary in other games, but I really don't understand how you can enjoy Zelda for anything other than the story first, and the gameplay second.

 

[ZIO]

If they gave me a game with an explorable world and an abundance of thought provoking and artistically interesting dungeons with out of this world items and equipment that I just simply cannot wait to use once I get them WITHOUT any story telling - I would be a very happy man.

Unfortunately, I have yet to find that game.

 

[Luigitoilet]

I've never liked your position on storyline in games.

Good games can be like storybooks in their own way, and it's perfectly fine for them to be that way because gaming presents a unique form of storytelling experience that is different from books and movies.

As it stands, gaming can be one dimensional, consisting of solely gameplay, but I'm sure LoZ would never have blossomed if they gave us a game with wireframes fighting enemies and going through dungeons over and over. By itself, the gameplay of LoZ is average, sub-par even. LoZ owes a lot of its success to the two other critical dimensions of the gaming experience: design and story.

Design, being art styles and character models and whatnot, is a given, it will always be there because it is a necessity. The only removable dimension is story. But story, though removable, is the main reason Zelda is as big as it is now. The large portion of Zelda's fanbase plays for the story, because the story is the only thing that refreshes the gameplay. Remove story, and you no longer have Zelda, you no longer have the same game at all.

I can see personally not thinking story is necessary in other games, but I really don't understand how you can enjoy Zelda for anything other than the story first, and the gameplay second.

Cool. I don't base my personal philosophy on vague conjecture on what I assume most of the fanbase plays the games for. It may be true that most people play Zelda for the story...so what? I don't personally find the story, in itself, to be at all the defining aspect of any of the Zelda games and I shouldn't be talked to as if the presumed opinion of "a large portion of Zelda's fanbase" overrides my own.

Also, Zelda became a massive thing as soon as the first game came out. It was a household name long before A Link to the Past, which is where the series began to incorporate emphasis on the lore of the game world. I would not consider the story to be a major factor in the franchise's recognizability and general success. Hell, the story is nonexistent in the first two games outside of the opening and ending text dumps which amount to something like a whopping 2 paragraphs. Zelda became a huge thing because it encouraged a communicative way of playing. People had this gigantic world to explore, and secrets strewn about all over. My sister drew a map of the game world and her friends would come over with the location of secret caves they had found. As this was the first game of the series, I would definitely put "exploration and adventure" over "story" as the main draw of the series...well, initially, that is.

I'm not exactly sure when I said that all story and narrative should be removed from videogames. I might have said some things that could be misconstrued as such but that's not what I mean. I'm simply advocating a different method of presentation of said story elements, one that moves away from the mimicry of cinema. I don't hate any and all cut scenes, but it's a very big problem in my eyes when passive storytelling tools are emphasized over interactive storytelling tools. For the most part, I really don't think most Nintendo games fall prey to this as bad as other consoles' libraries. I felt that Twilight Princess went overboard with trying to be a more typical next-gen gaming experience but even then, it's nothing compared to games I previously mentioned.

My favorite games- Majora's Mask and Silent Hill 2- are heavily dependent on their narratives and thematic concepts. It's true, if you removed the story from these games we wouldn't really have anything at all. But the thing about these two games is that the narrative is presented uniquely by utilizing the interactivity and the direct engagement with the player.

Roger Ebert has a fairly famous quote regarding his philosophy to cinema. "It's not what a movie is about, it's how it is about what it's about" I agree wholeheartedly and think this extends to all art, including videogames. Majora's Mask is about the futility of omniscience. How is the game about that? Well, you directly explore and interact with the characters of the game. The 3 day cycle allows your avatar to become a demigod-like being. The Bomber's Notebook is the most powerful thematic tool in the game. The character arcs and storylines within the game all unfold as the result of the player doing and seeing things instead of becoming a passive observer. By the end of the game, you know every NPCs routine because you yourself became a part of it. But with all this power, you're still more or less helpless to "save" everyone in one go. Thus, the thematic power of the game (i.e. the "story" or the "moral") absolutely hinges on the fact that the player is an explicit part of the narrative. The game doesn't have to resort to dramatic music and cinematics (although it does do this as well) to have you emotionally involved in the story of the game.

To bring this back to SS and to reiterate something I said earlier, I was quite enamored with the story of the game but not in the small typical sense of "a series of plot points". People seem to think that if there aren't "characters doing things" or "plot exposition" then there is no storytelling happening. That's a big misconception, and it's not only often applied to video games, but films as well. People complain about blockbuster movies having no plot and being just a series of action setpieces. They fail to realize that each action scene, no matter how inane, is a story in itself. It's the same thing with video games. My problem is that in most cases the game itself is telling a different "story" than the presentation of the game is.

I brought up Bioshock earlier because its story is fairly ambitious and high-reaching for a video game...but how would I say Bioshock is about the themes that it presents? It's about it in the sense that you shoot guys and walk along a fun-house path and then occasionally stop to watch the animatronics tell you stuff about Objectivism. Okay, that's a silly metaphor. I'm gettin fried. this has gone on too long hahaha.

 

[Spire]

Everyone should read the above post.

Thank you for sharing, LT.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Good post LT : o

 

[Jam Stunna]

Roger Ebert has a fairly famous quote regarding his philosophy to cinema. "It's not what a movie is about, it's how it is about what it's about" I agree wholeheartedly and think this extends to all art, including videogames. Majora's Mask is about the futility of omniscience. How is the game about that? Well, you directly explore and interact with the characters of the game. The 3 day cycle allows your avatar to become a demigod-like being. The Bomber's Notebook is the most powerful thematic tool in the game. The character arcs and storylines within the game all unfold as the result of the player doing and seeing things instead of becoming a passive observer. By the end of the game, you know every NPCs routine because you yourself became a part of it. But with all this power, you're still more or less helpless to "save" everyone in one go. Thus, the thematic power of the game (i.e. the "story" or the "moral") absolutely hinges on the fact that the player is an explicit part of the narrative. The game doesn't have to resort to dramatic music and cinematics (although it does do this as well) to have you emotionally involved in the story of the game.

This is beautiful.

Also, I can't believe anyone is seriously talking about story in Zelda as if it hasn't always been "Get these three things to get this sword to get these (3/7/8) things to defeat the ultimate evil."