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The GtaN Brawl General discussion thread! -Wait, did the title change?

Mikey7

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
1,417
Location
Mississauga, ON
Its not possible to compare Melee Marth to MK

Melee Marth has weaknesses, as does Melee Fox, and Melee anything

MK? no weaknesses. EVERY MOVE IS SAFE LOL.

To add to this: hitstun in melee allows for, you know, SOME type of quick removal of stocks or quickly turning around a game....in brawl, no hitstun or shield stun means thats to turn around a match you have to score 10+ INDIVIDUAL hits on MK i.e. he has to make 10 mistakes just to get to 100, and thats not even kill percentages. In melee one mistake could mean your whole stock any character vs any character - so theres a chance rofl

Don't compare games. (even though I compared akuma to MK lol)
 

Runawayfire

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
1,649
Location
Toronto
Sorry, but at this point nobody cares about the great swordgard's msn arguments.

Clearly we as a community are pro ban. And sorry Hype, not to disrespect your opinion, but you clearly have the most reason to argue his ban, and clearly have the most to lose. How are we not supposed to feel that you're strongly biased?
 

Toronto Joe

Smash Master
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
4,580
Location
On MSN
Sorry, but at this point nobody cares about the great swordgard's msn arguments.

Clearly we as a community are pro ban. And sorry Hype, not to disrespect your opinion, but you clearly have the most reason to argue his ban, and clearly have the most to lose. How are we not supposed to feel that you're strongly biased?
wtf your the most biased person here lmao you clearly have a bias MK get that **** outta here
 

Anth0ny

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
4,061
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Yeah, Melee has combos. If Brawl had, you know, ANY ****ING HITSTUN AT ALL, and combos were viable, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But w.e. Let's at LEAST temp ban this *****. I want to start playing Snake/GW :)
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
Location
Canada
Sorry, but at this point nobody cares about the great swordgard's msn arguments.

Clearly we as a community are pro ban. And sorry Hype, not to disrespect your opinion, but you clearly have the most reason to argue his ban, and clearly have the most to lose. How are we not supposed to feel that you're strongly biased?

Lol, seriously, shrugging off people who could argue with you.


Proves how definitively biased you guys are not willing to listen to others argument.
 

HolyNightmare

Smash Champion
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
2,204
Location
Slowly dying in the void
Before banning Metaknight, I say we ban double mk first. That **** is the most ******** thing ever. The last tournament showed how boring doubles were, top 3 teams were double mk since I myself had to drop rob just to be able to compete.
 

Cyan_

Smash Lord
Joined
May 31, 2008
Messages
1,208
Yeah, Melee has combos. If Brawl had, you know, ANY ****ING HITSTUN AT ALL, and combos were viable, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But w.e. Let's at LEAST temp ban this *****. I want to start playing Snake/GW :)
you'll have to pay me for me to teach you GW. >=[

ill help you out in Melee though
 

.decoy

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
614
Location
Toronto, ON
quesiton.

if sbr rules mk legal, and we as a community vote to ban him, are we going to stick to our guns or go with the backroom?

ps i didn't vote, and im going with i dont really care.

i think joe's request to ban ic's should be listened to though lol, if were considering voting on banning characters. even more so if were not going to listen to the sbr verdict. and i say that becuse its more than popular opinion that is fuelling our vote right? it is an academic assessment of the integrity of the character. that said, we should consider the broken-ness of ic's despite them not yet having "ruined our scene". to ban something (according to whoever wrote the essay thing):

[1] That aspect of the game must be so different from everything else in the game that it is an alien to the rest of the game.
[2] That aspect of the game must decrease the quality of every aspect of Brawl.

does a 0-death grab do that? i duno. its maybe worth thinking about later though.
 

Runawayfire

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
1,649
Location
Toronto
Its the same old arguement, and the argueing never leads anywhere in the actual world.
There are probably more pages on this board argueing the mk ban than anything else (excluding item ban)
The back and forth argueing with people who refuse to let up is useless. I doubt anyone will be enlightened by your arguements swordgard, they'll just be annoyed as hell.

Clearly the community has had enough with him, and the scene will only begin to die as more and more players get frustrated with MK and pick him up or spend their effort on another fighting game.
 

pastaboy

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
2,231
Location
st catharines, ontario
swordgard seems like your being bias. i know you wont admit it but the only reason why your on the anti ban side is because mk is easy for you, an ic main who can 0-death him if he makes one mistake.
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
Location
Canada
swordgard seems like your being bias. i know you wont admit it but the only reason why your on the anti ban side is because mk is easy for you, an ic main who can 0-death him if he makes one mistake.

LOL, MK is an even matchup at best.


Personally, most other matchups are even easier.


And if hes that easy, id like to see everyone start maining ics, no problem thenm.
 

PND

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
2,754
Location
Back in the 613
Guys, as important as this is, I think you should take a look at the arguments being presented here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243135

By the way, I don't main MK, I rarely play him in friendlies, and I vote legal. UNLESS, however, the SBR bans him. I'm along the line of thinking that if we ban him, and he doesn't get banned, we'll be inadequately prepared to deal with American MKs if we travel across the border. HOWEVER I do support running a couple of MK banned tourneys for evidence sake before we make any final decisions.
 

Runawayfire

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
1,649
Location
Toronto
I'm along the line of thinking that if we ban him, and he doesn't get banned, we'll be inadequately prepared to deal with American MKs if we travel across the border.
What does that even matter when in reality pretty much only the brosemobile and Ally+ Holy ever travel out to the U.S, and we've got tons of MK practice already?
 

PND

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
2,754
Location
Back in the 613
Well, how about the opposite. What about when Michigan / others would travel up to our tournaments? Doesn't seem that likely if we ban MK preemptively. Look at some of the states that have done it already, they're labeled "scrub states" and with the exception of Texas, pretty much nobody travels to those scenes for tournaments anymore.

That being said, attendance is already in decline, and when's the last time US came down? Maybe if we get enough US rep at Havoc we might start seeing things pick up, but placing a preemptive ban might dissuade others from coming across the border.

Plus right now there's a huge stigma attached to banning him preemptively. I personally don't want to be know as "the scrubs up north"

the main point of my post was the link, the rest was jsut to keep it on topic. Little thought went into either of these responses
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
Location
Canada
Well, how about the opposite. What about when Michigan / others would travel up to our tournaments? Doesn't seem that likely if we ban MK preemptively. Look at some of the states that have done it already, they're labeled "scrub states" and with the exception of Texas, pretty much nobody travels to those scenes for tournaments anymore.

That being said, attendance is already in decline, and when's the last time US came down? Maybe if we get enough US rep at Havoc we might start seeing things pick up, but placing a preemptive ban might dissuade others from coming across the border.

Plus right now there's a huge stigma attached to banning him preemptively. I personally don't want to be know as "the scrubs up north"

the main point of my post was the link, the rest was jsut to keep it on topic. Little thought went into either of these responses
Wel make sure to point to everyone when they call you like that that it should be renamed to "Scrubs from the north mid east", this way we dont get the bad reputation as you guys will.


And SBR aint banning MK, its an imposibility, at best 54% will be for it, imo its more gonna be something like 49%.
 

.decoy

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
614
Location
Toronto, ON
i dont think our mk experience should really be questioned...minus is right about us going out of state. people also don't come up that much. but if they entire community wants mk to be legal and we go against it, are we doing so on the basis of academic , unbiased evaluation of the character metaknight and his effect on the competitive game, or just to even out our own scene because we cant cope? the latter seems a little weak. if everyone else can get past it, i think we should to. so i think im going to change my vote from dont care to go with whatever sbr rules. its at least a better majority than we can make.
 

Dogg/Naoki/Suzaku

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
183
3 months is wayyyy too much. Really i would say after havoc this should be implemented. 18-3 (With the three people being mk mains) is pretty much a landslide. Democracy sucks *** u know having an opinion and stuff lololol.

I do not main MK or use him at all <_<
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
The community is so far from being right man.

Seriously, whoever wants MK banned should speak with me directly on smn, il destroy your arguments 1 by 1.

Heck, if people want, i can start refuting 90% of the stuff in here because most of you people are biased because you dont like MK simply because you cant beat him.


Did i mention how bad GTA is gonna be with dealing with MKs in usa once you go there but lack MK experience?
Don't make me laugh - if you want to debate, let's ****ing throw down right here. I will wipe the floor with you.


On a side note, it is an EXCELLENT idea to ban Meta Knight as a community here in Ontario. Let me remind you - Ontario, as a region, is MASSIVE. Look at your closest map of North America...if you guys want to get the ban ball moving, an MK-free Ontario would look really big. It's bigger than Texas, and then some. It practically takes up like, a 13-14 state equivalent, lol.

It's like the gay marriage debate. You see only a few states allowing gays to get married now - but it's only a matter of time that the naysayers will see the light.


I would also like to mention one other thing - democracy. The Smash Back Room is not a panel that we, the people, elect. We did not choose these people. It is an elitist, invite only club that chooses rules rather tyrannically (albeit with honest intentions, don't get me wrong.)

It's clear GTAN wants MK banned. **** the SBR.
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
Location
Canada
Don't make me laugh - if you want to debate, let's ****ing throw down right here. I will wipe the floor with you.


On a side note, it is an EXCELLENT idea to ban Meta Knight as a community here in Ontario. Let me remind you - Ontario, as a region, is MASSIVE. Look at your closest map of North America...if you guys want to get the ban ball moving, an MK-free Ontario would look really big. It's bigger than Texas, and then some. It practically takes up like, a 13-14 state equivalent, lol.

It's like the gay marriage debate. You see only a few states allowing gays to get married now - but it's only a matter of time that the naysayers will see the light.


I would also like to mention one other thing - democracy. The Smash Back Room is not a panel that we, the people, elect. We did not choose these people. It is an elitist, invite only club that chooses rules rather tyrannically (albeit with honest intentions, don't get me wrong.)

It's clear GTAN wants MK banned. **** the SBR.
Alright, then please start why you would want MK banned exactly.

First things first. Dont dare say that silverdoc is only good with ics cause you didnt knew him before and he was new. Get your facts straight, hes a reputable online player.


Either way, im off to sleep. Answer whatever you come up with tommorow.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Furthermore, we need not worry about being known as the scrubs up north. Frankly, the East Coast Canada Brawl Scene (from what I've read and heard) is fairly revered.

Swordgard, why don't you critique some of the posts I've created in this thread already? They're already there and really, I'd rather not re-type this shit.
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
Location
Canada
Furthermore, we need not worry about being known as the scrubs up north. Frankly, the East Coast Canada Brawl Scene (from what I've read and heard) is fairly revered.

Swordgard, why don't you critique some of the posts I've created in this thread already? They're already there and really, I'd rather not re-type this shit.
How far back must i go?
 

Violent-nin

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 29, 2006
Messages
502
Location
Parts Unknown
Very late replies:

@Joe and Cyan

Yes Oddjob was broken, but I'm one of the few GoldenEye players who make that short guy my *****. :laugh:

Then again that's probably because I'm the best GoldenEye player in our region....at least. :)

@Mikey

Well right now I'm more along the lines of whatever SBR decides I'll support.

@AvariceX

Wasn't paying attention till now. Your quitting Ness? Who are you planning to use now, or are you quitting Brawl in general?

@Iliad

I respect you and think your a great Marth player. The way I'm looking at is I expect the best results from myself no matter the odds. I know full well MK has no groundbreaking flaws and how much of a force he can be (half of the reason I refuse to ever main him). Truthfully I don't like to see any character banned unless their completely unbeatable, MK is definitely the best in the game and his easy learning curve has encouraged more people to pick him up therefor improves his meta-game even more.

As for me while I play many games competitively and Brawl is one of them, I really don't take Brawl as serious as the others. Guys like Joe and Yuuki know I'm more carefree when it comes to Brawl hence the maining of Random (partly).


-----

So overall as I thought about it more and more I'm neutral on the ban and will just support whatever the SBR decides or even the community here. While I don't want to see him banned for some reasons, I fully understand why people want him banned so....yeah.

----

If anything we should all quit Brawl and start recreating a GoldenEye 64 competitive scene.....Joe and Cyan you guys have to be in! :laugh:
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
Location
Canada
First things first, if you guys want to ban him cause hes "not fun" or anything of the like, nothing il do will ever convince you to ban him. If you want to ban him, at least make it so for competitive reasons which are logical please.

It's quite possible Meta Knight is bannable. Meta Knight has a definitive lead in tournament placings; his recovery is unprecedented, and he is far and away the best character in Brawl. Let's stop the arguing there because we all agree on that - that should not be the focus here. What we should be looking at is the RISKs of this ban situation - ie, the ramifications of what will follow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zORv8wwiadQ

Watch this video: Specifically, :51-1:15.

Let's factor RISK into two options. 1 - We ban Meta Knight. 2 - We don't.

1. Say we ban Meta Knight - we run the risk of turning off Meta Knight players to the game (of which there are a lot; possibly decimating the Brawl scene) We also run the risk of being too hasty and realizing he's not actually banworthy. (I doubt this would happen -- however, it's important to note that it is in fact possible.)

However, out of those negatives, comes a large positive risk - the risk of revolutionizing Brawl's metagame.

2. Say we don't ban Meta Knight - we run the risk of playing Meta Knight dittos until the day SSB4 comes out, boring players and regional scenes - dominating Brawl's metagame forever.


Which risk would you rather take?
I dont know how to quote from other threads, so dont be surprised if the post number doesnt match.


Either way: Your argument does not work as you cannot ban MK on what he could become. This is because unlike with the other situation, we can afford to wait until it becomes true and actually fix it, thus making the whole risk argument not very useful, especially since i could easily apply the same situation to any best character. Im sure that with that logic, you coulda gotten sheik banned in melee in the starting year.


Now for your risk reward things: Your actual risk for number one go even farther than that. Not only will MKs leave, but if the SBR turns out to leave him unbanned, then less people will actually want to go to your tourneys.

I fail to see how banning metaknight will revolutionnize the metagame in brawl. Metaknight, first of all, is only the worst matchup of 3 characters in the game. If anything, he does not make more than 2 characters unviable in the game. If you want to say he will revolutionnize the m etagame, then you could apply this with D3, because D3 makes way many more characters unviable in the game. That and you do not know if the new metagame will actually be more diversified than the old one.

Another risk arises when you ban MK. You open the door for anyone who has lost to a certain character, make the exact same reasonning as you for risk, then get it banned. Best example here would be ice climbers. Who knows if theyl overcentralize the metagame without MK!(they wont, stop being stupid, MK doesnt make ics unviable). Now by your risk theory, i could very easily get them banned. You cannot ban something for what they MIGHT become, you ban something for what they are. Because or else so much more stuff would be banned and we could always say it could dominate the metagame. And whatever happens IS fixable, unlike banning MK. Once something is banned, that we cannot fix anymore even if we turned out wrong we will never know because we cannot see anymore if the character was really that good. How will we compare with metaknights if they are no longer into the equation?

The worst thing you risk with number 2 is another poll in 6 months if they situation is the same or has degenerated.


I ask of you all to make an informed decision rather than one based on "feelings" or personal hate versus the little puffball.
 

tha_carter

Smash Ace
Joined
May 26, 2008
Messages
737
Lol, so the people that voted against the ban are the top placing MK mains, who make money off the character, and the others are people that hardly come out to see the MK dominance in the first place....

The other 99% of people what him gone. ahahah never would of guessed that.

Pr without MK;

:kirby2:
:diddy:
:popo:
:warioc:
:falco:
:marth::dedede:
:peach:
:gw:
:snake::wolf:
:bowser2:


PR with MK;
:metaknight:
:kirby2:
:metaknight:
:metaknight:
:metaknight:
:warioc:
:metaknight:

:laugh:C'mon, tell me on list doesnt look more interesting than the other.
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
Location
Canada
Lol, so the people that voted against the ban are the top placing MK mains, who make money off the character, and the others are people that hardly come out to see the MK dominance in the first place....

The other 99% of people what him gone. ahahah never would of guessed that.

Pr without MK;

:kirby2:
:diddy:
:popo:
:warioc:
:falco:
:marth::dedede:
:peach:
:gw:
:snake::wolf:
:bowser2:


PR with MK;
:metaknight:
:kirby2:
:metaknight:
:metaknight:
:metaknight:
:warioc:
:metaknight:

:laugh:C'mon, tell me on list doesnt look more interesting than the other.
SO because you guys wont step it up, then we should ban him?

Metaknight only is a problem in your scene because you guys cant get around him and arent doing your homework correctly as to finding ways to beat him.

I am not on your PR and hardly come off to see what your scene looks like, but its clear it isnt the metaknights that are being too good. Its you guys being unable to beat him. Percon does it frequently ina 60-40 matchups, so no johns.


That and your version puts whoever secondary MK as their primary char, which isnt the right way to go. You also only put the top 7 in your list in order to make it look worst. Stop trying to influence the results.
 

tha_carter

Smash Ace
Joined
May 26, 2008
Messages
737
Nobody has MK as a secondary, they just feel guilty about saying MKs their main.

And when i was taking the game seriously, i beat every MK on the PR in tourney except Ace (who destroyed me btw LOL). Including number two on the PR. Using Samus. Lol, clearly its more than 'mk cant be beaten.'
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
Location
Canada
Nobody has MK as a secondary, they just feel guilty about saying MKs their main.

And when i was taking the game seriously, i beat every MK on the PR in tourney except Ace (who destroyed me btw LOL). Including number two on the PR. Using Samus. Lol, clearly its more than 'mk cant be beaten.'
Oh, its only about MK not being beatable.


If the PR is only filled with MKs, its cause you guys cant beat him. If you use the PR as an argument to show MKs dominance, it just shows your lack work being done to beat him.
 

tha_carter

Smash Ace
Joined
May 26, 2008
Messages
737
Youre right, its all our fault.

Has nothing to do with the fact MK is by far the best character or anything.
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
Location
Canada
Youre right, its all our fault.

Has nothing to do with the fact MK is by far the best character or anything.
Yup, it is. MK goes even witha handfull of characters. Simply step it up. Percon is still second, silverdoc still uses way more snake and diddy than MK. I wonder how they got past all the other MKs??? Oh wait, they actually used characters who is not horribly bad vs him and worked on their matchups!!! Ambrose used Ics to counter joes MK for a long time.


Seriously, it IS your fault for not stepping it up. MKs domination is slipping on the rankings. He is the best character, and statistically speaking he has the most chances of getting in the top of the top positions(top 3 only, i dont care about anything after past that in a small scene, at best top 5) because he has no counters. But he also has a handful of even matchups where you can beat him or even 6-4 matchups where hes at advantage but beatable. Being the best by far doesnt mean hes bannable, and the problem will only show up at the top of the metagame, which is not the case for most people on your PR.
 

nickcam

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 24, 2008
Messages
595
People calm down with the step it up. Sonic sucks. Also swordgard ur not part of the GTA so no disrespect but i think we can make this decision on our own. People stop talkign about the US references they're not coming down here cause we dont have enough players anymore. This has obviously happened cause our scene is filled with MK's who make this game not enjoyable
 
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