The GtaN Brawl General discussion thread! -Wait, did the title change?

[.Marik]

Ban MetaKnight. :D

Maybe he'll get banned, but I can re-quote what I said earlier. It's obvious he's broken, and at least in Melee and with other characters in Brawl, you have to be decent to actually win with them. Not so much with MetaKnight. >_>

 

[KC18]

MK should be banned. he has no weaknesses (i don't think weight is even an issue for him cuz of uair momentum cancelling) comes out frame 2 i think, so he lives to moderate percentages in the hands of a skilled player. and as everyone knows he is good on every stage, no bad match-ups etc excpet for snake, and diddy i guess oh and IC only because of broken grabs. he is too fast, no lag, high priority on all of his moves pretty much. and the fact that he has a sword which gives him a ******** amount of range is so stupid.
call me a noob if u like, but shuttle loop is the gayest move in the game, way too fuc.king strong for the angle it hits u on, and not punishable cuz of no lag. MK can never be limited in options cuz he has too many in any situation( noone better deny this cuz it's true lmao).
i dunno those are my thoughts, maybe it's just cuz i main low tier, but i know he won't be banned anyway, too many ppl love exploiting a bad game to make money, obviously he won't be banned.

 

[KingAce]

Ban MetaKnight. :D

Maybe he'll get banned, but I can re-quote what I said earlier. It's obvious he's broken, and at least in Melee and with other characters in Brawl, you have to be decent to actually win with them. Not so much with MetaKnight. >_>

lol so you dont have to be decent to win with mk? dumbest post ive ever seen

 

[Mikey7]

You have to be good, but if you're good with 1 character you're better with MK ; )

 

[lain]

Thing is nin, and with no intentions of sounding belittling, if you were better at the game you would notice the inherent flaws in the system and the fact that MK seems to lack any.

Infact, the ONLY flaw I find in MK is this: He's light.

That's IT. That's a sorry ****ing flaw if it's going to be his only one.

Also, phil, if MK got banned, I would institute the 6grab rule in tourneyplay. It's funny too, because Lain, the best iceys in brawl right now even said "I need that grab to beat MK." he didn't mention any other char, he felt that without infinites MK alone would **** him. If MK gets tourney banned 6 grabs will be more than enough for ICeys. And I would ask Ambrose, Doc, Sauc3, or Jaske to back me up on that.

When I say "I need that grab to beat MK", it means that 1. I'm admitting that MK is OBVIOUSLY the best character in the game and 2. I also need that grab to beat a lot of characters, and in some matchups a grab that = a death doesn't mean enough.

Without being able to kill from the grab, IC's are junk. They have bad EVERYTHING. *****es can't wavedash around anymore, nor use any setup at all to lead into a grab.

 

[Tin Man]

ICs are FAIR PLAY, they aren't even S tier, and if MK was removed from the game, R.O.B. would be higher on the tier list then ics, ics may even go down on tier list cause they lost a matchup to a high tier, and then look at snake who wrecks ics. Chill dude (lol chill ICs )

 

[nickcam]

Lol they won't say ban it, they're all MKs >_>

lol +1000 to this post. 99% of sbr is mk no chance hes getting banned. And sbr is not the determining factor in my eyes its the players in the community and theres an outcry for him to be banned here. There only people im seeing who are defending MK are MK's themselves (Obviously). I have yet to read a post which has given me a single reason to why he shouldnt be banned other then "Sbr says that"

 

[KingAce]

actually nickcam there are a fair amount of people who think that there is no reason for mk to be banned lol
anyways the sbr wont ban it so i guess the community will always have mk banned tournaments, as well as mk legal tournaments. it may cause a split in the community but im sure if there was a tournament and mk wasnt banned the turnout wouldnt be bad still

 

[Toronto Joe]

brawl is a really zany game at time,Mk banned wont influence all the trash aspects of Brawl

and lol at calling me a sellout,i picked up MK cause i was losing to MK and i needed a cp because Fox doesnt have the tools to beat our top Mks, i was using Snake(used to 2nd him when me and cyan did gamebattles),GW,and Mk at the time trying to find the right char, i ended up choosing MK because he allowed for me to play aggressively and rewarded both player patience and aggression(the way i played fox) obviously him being the best character made my decision easier

Guys, our top mks are VERY good, maybe you should start looking into player skill instead of going omgMK, im sick of MK mains getting no credit(especially me) because we use the best char in the game,its so stupid

and yeah Phil hit it right on the head with the ICs thing, with all the upcoming IC players everyone is just going to switch to Snake lmao how does that allow for character diversity?

Mk wont be banned anyways so i guess ill just keep riding his coattails and use the skill i dont have apparently, to win

id go to both Mikeys and Phils tourney because im not just a MK main and i GUARANTEE ill place top 10 in both

 

[Hype]

MK is not THAT good. He is the best character in Brawl and has an easy learning curve. This easy learning curve makes it easy for people to pick him up which gives the illusion of an extremely broken character, but this is not the case. At the highest level of play (national tournaments) there is so much diversity among the top and high tiers in the top 8 (see genesis and Apex results). MetaKight is not too good and he’s not dominating the metagame as a whole. In fact, only 30% of prize money goes out to MK players (shown in the OP of the the new ban poll thread).

The main issues in our region seem to be the fact that everyone is switching to MK and the low turnouts as of late. Like I previously said MK gives the illusion of a broken character at low-mid level of play. This coupled with the fact that we have many good MK’s in our region gives people the impression that if they switch to MK they will start winning. This is almost never the case. This is a problem of the people not a problem of the character.

The low turnouts is a very big problem though. I’m not going to lie, it is possible that this is because of MK, but I don’t want to jump to conclusion. It’s also possible that since we have had a tourney every week since summer began the people can’t/don’t want to make it to all of these tournaments. Different people decide to go to different ones and we get a much smaller turn out at each. Regarding FOiN, that would have had a way better turnout if it wasn’t for Ayaz failing. I think we should wait for Havoc in the Hammer, it’s predicted to have a fantastic turnout (especially if the Americans can make it).I’m excited for it and I know I’m not alone.

Ok seriously, MK is ****ing ******** and this **** is getting out of hand around here.

Anyone who has been to the last few tournaments knows this to be true.

I agree, there does seem to be many MK doing well here compared to most regions.

Everyone else continues to play him while hating him, some hate him so much they pick him up as a testament to hating him.

Who? I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but I can't think of anyone. I personally love MK.

I also just love how everybody who's switched to him/picked up for secondaries has gotten higher tournament results every time, not ONE person placed worse after picking him up.

What about JL? I was under the impression he placed much worse after he switched to MK.

When I look at our PR (and U&Cers), the ONLY person there who has done better after switching to MK is TO Joe. When you look at the other MK's that place well in our region, KingAce and myself have always been MK mains so there's nothing to compare, while Ambrose and Doc have shown to be very successful with other characters anyway. Let’s take a closer look
at Joe's situation. Keep in mind that he was playing a mid-tier before, Fox is 21st on the tier list and isn't tourney-viable. Chances are, he would be placing better with any high tier character (excluding Marth because his hard learning curve and Falco because of all the IC's). He was bound to increase because fox is a bad character compared to all high tier and above. Regarding the other people who have switched to MK, none of them seem to be placing well. It really doesn't matter if they were getting 25th and now are getting 17th.. MK has an easy learning curve so his does very well at mid-low level of play, but this isn’t really effecting the top.

It's true that if you play MK your statistically more likely to place better in tournament. However, this is true with the best character in any game. Just picking up MK does not equal instant top 3. Unfortunately some people in our region don't see that reality and make the switch, but what do they have to show for it? No new MK mains have dramatically increased their tourney placing to the point where they actually might make top 3 (with the exception of Joe which was already explained). Basically, there is no difference between MK and the best character from any game with respect to new mains and their placings.

It's the player not the character.

Infact, some peoples main thing that holds them back is that they have a shred of decency and don't use him.

There is nothing indecent about playing MetaKnight. Remarks like this have no place in a competitive environment.

I also just love the fact that teams play (known for being more fun and varied than singles) has come down to being horribly dominated by ****ing MKs.

This seems to be true, but I don't think double mk is the best team.

"But Minus, if MK is legal and you want to win, its your fault for not picking him up!"

Exactly, so is the logical strategy for everyone to pick up MK?.

How is this any different from the best character in any game? You will always have the greatest statistical advantage from playing the best character in any game.

Is MK as a character truly deserving as a ban? Debatable
Is MK as a character wrecking the fabric of our scene? Yes.

It's not so much MK, it's the people who think MK=free win. It's likely that all these new MK mains won't start winning tourneys. When they realize this what will they do? they might revert back to their mains but I honestly don't know? either way, this is a problem of the people not a problem of the character.

There are only so many good players left around here who haven't switched, and I can assure you they would all get better results if they switched to MK like the rest of you sellouts.

Based on what exactly? They might, they might not.

Don’t say everyone how has switched does better because I already addressed that.

My major props go out to: Percon, Nickcam, Mikey, Niko, Pastaboy and Holy for never selling out and always doing well in this tornado storm.

I agree...sort of, I feel that people are all switching to MK for bad reasons.

It's sad when people do things like plank to win and think its ok.

I think planking should be banned it's a pretty broken tactic, but MK's should stay.

At mikeys 40 man tourney I didn't use mk once and got 4th, I'm capable of dropping mk too, and I'm sure the people who use him know hes gay, but its not like minds will be changed lets not forget mk is beatable.

Doc is a really good player, he can play 5 (maybe more) characters all at very high level. His other characters do just as good as his MK and better in many sitautions.

He shows us it's the player not the character.

While MK is beatable, choosing him and having him in your back pocket only comes with advantages, this is the main problem.

I don’t understand what you mean.

There's times when using MK is not in one's best interest, but I'm entirely sure if that's what you’re saying.

2) easy wins because he has unlimited tools and can counter every character. Yes, you didn't read that wrong.

I respectfully disagree

maybe gtan should have a tourny without metaknight this summer then? You'd get a lot of people going probably, and maybe dedicated metaknight mains will try playing snake or something for a change. maybe if it had a small entrance fee like $5 it would encourage mk mains to try a new character for the tourny.

tbh I doubt it would get a bigger turnout than a regular tourney. I personally wouldn’t like the fact that I would have to play a character that I’m not comfortable with.

I f*cking hate these discussions.

Yes, the evidence is overwhelming that MetaKnight is broken, and is dominant in an already over-centralized metagame.

yet only 30% of the prize money won at tournaments goes to MK players...

But, with the amount of players involved in playing MetaKnight, and the simple "well, play better and don't get *****, learn the matchup" argument, who's actually going to carry out this initiative in large-scale Tournaments?

Ally destroys MKs with Snake, MikeHAZE took M2K to game 5 at Evo with Marth. There were 3 MKs in the top 8 an Genesis, M2K, Tyrant and Dojo. There were 3 people who used MK at Apex in the top 8 and 2 of them used other charcters as well. And FYI Ally won both of these with Snake! There's no problem with MK dominance at large-scale tournaments.

It will be easier if MetaKnight is banned.

You don't ban stuff to make things easier for you. Whatever "it" is.

in Melee the better player usually wins. Not so in Brawl.

Yet many of the top brawl players also had success in melee.

That's exactly how it went down.
Even Ally has sold out to mk in doubles. Think about that, the first person who comes to mind on the anti ban side used mk to beat us.

If he thinks MK will give him a better chance (in singles or doubles) why doesn't he use him at "Important" US tournies vs better opponents (no offense intended, there's just better players in the US).

I don't know exactly about this situation, but I've seen Ally use MK in bracket when he sure as hell didn't need to (I've also seen him use captain falcon). Maybe he didn't need to use MK, he just felt like it. Again I'm not sure about the specifics of the situation so I might be wrong.

None the less he's still arguably the best player (definitely top 2) and this is because of his accomplishments with Snake, not MK.

 

[Hype]

Double Post for character limit. (Edit: LOL, no pun intended)

When snake gets blown up by his own nade, you know it does even more damage to him than to someone else?.

Yeah but when you factor in the weight of Snake, especially vs MK, Snake can take the hit and MK it often closer to kill percent.

not true, especially not against mk. in fact, i avoid using ftilt against mk. although ftilt is strong, it has very VERY punishable lag, and if youre ftilting someone whos shielding, prepare to be grabbed, MK, on the other hand, can nado someone, dsmash someone, shuttle loop, someone, hell he can do anything and instantly escape punishment.

Snake Ftilt is punishable but so are all of MKs moves that you mentioned and you know it. Especially Dsmash, that is so punishable, it's basically a free Ftilt for you which is 1/5 my stock.

I admit yeah thats pretty awesome, butthat takes a ton of snake experience to pull off, MK on the other hand has a much simpler learning curve.

Highest level of play...

MK on the other hand, cant be counterpicked on any stage.

among others:
Snake on halberd
Snake on FD
Diddy on FD
Falco on Halberd
Falco on Jungle Japes
IC's on FD

It's all debatable but these are likely CPs to have the advantage over MK.

I seriously do not want MK banned. I do not main him and I do not second him, but he is not all that hard. The only Mks I have recently played are Hype and KingAce with Amrbrose in doubles. MKs metagame is just more advanced that the whole roster, the only character that is close is Snake. Ally beat the best MK, so I think MK isn't unbeatable.

This.

MK metagame is advanced far beyond the rest of the cast for 2 reasons. firstly M2K places a very effiecient style of play which is easily replicated. This is why he stopped letting people record him for a while because people copy what he does. Secondly, MK has something called a positive feedback relationship with number of people who use him. As MK's metagame advances relative to the cast it give an illusion of him being far better than the rest. This Make more people want to play him, which in turn, advances his metagame faster.

yeah i agree with double mk in teams being sorta broken

tbh I don't think double MK is the best team.

ZSS + G&W
MK + Snake (especially with controller port priority)
MK + G&W

I think these teams are all better. There's other teams that are really good too, but these are definitely better than MK + MK imo.

I see where Holy is coming from though, ROB has no chance vs double MKs.

Ness just does not have the tools at all to deal with an MK playing so gay, and sadly neither do most characters.

Ness doesn't have to tools to deal with a lot of characters. The reality is Ness is not tourney viable. If MK was banned he still wouldn't be tourney viable.

Bottom line is Snake has counters.

We are very early in Brawl's metagame, can anyone honestly say without a doubt that there is no way MK will ever have a counter? I don't want to risk never finding out.

Also, Mikey I totally agree - I drove 4 hours through that god**** snowstorm and it was worth every minute. It's really hard to justify driving so far out now with the turnout we had at Niko's and at the last Pownz. Unfortunately if I stop coming to tourneys then that's also 3 other people from Chatham who will nearly never make it out to these events since I'm the one who drives 80%+ of the time.

Hopefully Havoc in the Hammer will get a good turnout. I think part of the reason that the turnouts haven't been that great lately is because we have a tourney every week and people can't make it to all of them so different people make it to different tournies.

Also, phil, if MK got banned, I would institute the 6grab rule in tourneyplay. It's funny too, because Lain, the best iceys in brawl right now even said "I need that grab to beat MK." he didn't mention any other char, he felt that without infinites MK alone would **** him. If MK gets tourney banned 6 grabs will be more than enough for ICeys. And I would ask Ambrose, Doc, Sauc3, or Jaske to back me up on that.

IC's would be low tier without the infinite and would get ***** by much more than MK. Also other problems come with have the six grab rule.

Edit : O if people didnt know i was speaking to holy and ally the only guy who consistently beats all mk is thinking of picking him up. =(

Isn't Holy trying convince Ally to pick him up for the purpose of the ban? Ally wins everything, he has no other reason to switch his mains.

Ban MetaKnight. :D

Maybe he'll get banned, but I can re-quote what I said earlier. It's obvious he's broken, and at least in Melee and with other characters in Brawl, you have to be decent to actually win with them. Not so much with MetaKnight. >_>

He's not broken and you don't know what your talking about. Who are these bad people who are winning with MK?

"Functional definition for "broken": Character somehow ignores game mechanics, cannot be beaten, or has some random uncontrollable effect. Metaknight does not bend the rules of smash to bypass hit stun, DI, KOs, free movement, or other concepts familiar to smash game play. Tournament results have disproved Metaknight's invincibility, and he can be beaten in the realm of human ability. Every input in Metaknight's control is known to have a predictable outcome, and every attack is known to have a set of unchanging properties. Metaknight does not have the inherently random nature that items do, and he cannot mimic the random nature of some stages, such as Delfino Plaza.

In the realm of Brawl, there are many attributes to take into consideration such as KO power, weight, speed, recovery, range, projectiles, and the ability to chaingrab to name a few. What Metaknight lacks in some of these areas other character’s from the roster more than make up for such as Snake’s powerful up-tilt, his convenient weight, and his amazing projectile game or Falco’s chaingrab, convenient priority moves (rapid A and forward+b), and his penetrating lasers or Ice Climber’s ability to remove a complete stock from any person in the game with a single grab or Pikachu’s similar new, universal chaingrab that ends placing the opponent in killing percent. In a game that holds all these unique and available tactics to exist Metaknight does not contain a single attribute that clearly demolishes the tactics presented above. Rather, Metaknight is equipped with a combination of great attributes that when compared to certain character he stays within bounds while other traits such as infinites, weight, and projectiles are completely absent from his arsenal.

Metaknight is not broken."

MK should be banned. he has no weaknesses (i don't think weight is even an issue for him cuz of uair momentum cancelling) comes out frame 2 i think, so he lives to moderate percentages in the hands of a skilled player. and as everyone knows he is good on every stage, no bad match-ups etc excpet for snake, and diddy i guess oh and IC only because of broken grabs.

In addtion to Snake, Diddy and ICs, MK also has neural match ups with Falco and Wario. On the right stage (FD, Halberd, Jungle japes) that easily switches to MK's disadvanatge.

call me a noob if u like, but shuttle loop is the gayest move in the game, way too fuc.king strong for the angle it hits u on, and not punishable cuz of no lag.

(Aerial) Shuttle loop has wierd properties where it's knockback is really high relative to other moves at a low percent but it's knockback grows really slowly as percent increases. I'm tempted to make a video that explains this better.







This is frustrating for me because even though MK has an easy learning curve it really doesn’t matter once you get to a high level of play. Just like many of you, I have put so much work into my MK to improve it’s ridiculous and it’s not fair to have that all taken away.

Although I have played other games competitively I actually haven’t been in the Smash scene for too long. I was excited to meet all these new people but I have since come to realize that the MK bias in this community is ridiculous. I can hardly believe the amount of times someone has subtly implied that winning with MK is somehow less of a win; It’s not. Don’t get me wrong, I can take a joke, and many people in this community are awesome but sometimes people just act like douche bags.

 

[Deleted member]

This is frustrating for me because even though MK has an easy learning curve it really doesn’t matter once you get to a high level of play. Just like many of you, I have put so much work into my MK to improve it’s ridiculous and it’s not fair to have that all taken away.

Not to further the stigma you mention in the following quote, but yeah -- give me a day or two and my MK would be tournament ready. His game is easy to play, the recovery is mindless, his attacks have stupid priority, hitboxes, etc. The game serves MK on a plate to you. I'm not sure where you're spending time and effort on improving your MK.

I'd also like to point out that MK's "metagame" (you guys abuse that term so much) is only so "advanced" because the character is inherently broken. That means he's easy to use, that means he's going to be picked up by everyone. M2K has nothing to do with MK's "advancement"..the character is miles ahead of every other character BAKED INTO THE GAME

Here's a paradox:

You state that MK's accessibility is irrelevant at the highest level of play. Guess what? The highest level of play (whatever the **** that means in Brawl..who can tornado fastest?) is dominated by MK, save for one player. That means these people get to the top riding on the coattails of MK's gayness. That means you, unfortunately. Meaning it's not exactly skill that's getting them there, it's the accessibility of the character. So yes, it does matter that he's easy to pick up.

Although I have played other games competitively I actually haven’t been in the Smash scene for too long. I was excited to meet all these new people but I have since come to realize that the MK bias in this community is ridiculous. I can hardly believe the amount of times someone has subtly implied that winning with MK is somehow less of a win; It’s not. Don’t get me wrong, I can take a joke, and many people in this community are awesome but sometimes people just act like douche bags.

Sorry to hear that, but when we're trying to decide if we were wrong all along (by allowing such MK domination), don't take it personally.

 

[Cyan_]

Hype, ZSS + G&W isn't the best team in the game.

I know the bucket thing is amazing, but it's far from the best team in the game. trust me, me and joe tried it.

it's pretty awesome though

 

[AvariceX]

There's a bunch of things I need to say here so this is going to get long (not as long as Hype's wtf post above).

First and foremost - STOP USING THE SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT, IT IS COMPLETE TRASH. Using the characters who have been argued most, Snake has numerous characters who go close to even or better with him (D3, Wario, DK, ZSS, Falco, Pika, ROB) and IC's have several characters spread across the entire tier list that do the same (Marth, G&W, Ness, ZSS, Peach, even Jiggs), and this is even without limiting the infinite grabs. MK has one (Snake) - maybe two or three (Wario, Falco). It is not hard to see that one single character will never come close to dominating the way MK does.

I was against the MK ban for a long time, because I agree with a lot of the anti-ban arguments; most notably the skill factor. It did take a better player to win even with MK. However this is consistently becoming less true. If an MK playing against a non-MK knows how to abuse the fact that all of his moves (even his kill moves) come out faster than nearly every other move in the game (even damage racking moves known for being fast) then he will win. If you play campy and 'gay' enough with MK against any non-MK character other than perhaps Snake, you will win. The only other two characters who can challenge this (Wario and Falco) do so by camping, but we all know MK has the tools to get around Falco's camp, and the evolution of MK's metagame has now found that he can actually use Wario's own air-camp strategy against Wario - and be better at it.

Hype you seem to think I'm just trying to make Ness tourney viable with this, but that is so far from the truth. Firstly I have been beating low-mid level MK's with Ness for a long time (I even took a bracket game off of you). It only recently came to my attention due to an MK abusing the "gay" playstyle I outlined above that Ness simply cannot win against it - but I don't care about that. I care about the fact that very few characters can win against that. The more people who hit the realization that I did, the more people will drop their mains who they love playing and pick up MK. We have enough **** MK's as it is. I want a varied tourney scene, that is all. I'm probably not even going to continue playing Ness even if MK gets banned so don't try to pin this on me as some sort of warped character bias. For the record, Ness is and always has been tourney viable; people are only now starting to see it (there's a reason Ness is above G&W and TL in tourney placings right now); however, no character is viable against certain MK strategies.

If an MK player uses conventional Smash strategy then the match will indeed come down to who is the better player or more knowledgeable at the matchup, but the more new findings arise in the MK community the more untouchable he becomes. This is the main problem. While every other character's advancement in the metagame is focused on finding ways to win matchups they have difficulty with, MK's advancement is focused on finding ways to revert characters who find ways to beat him back to being unable to beat him.

The really sad part is that even if we ban MK, it's probably too late. So many people have given up on this game already and probably aren't paying attention to the community anymore to see if we do get rid of MK. Hats off to Niko_K, for being the one person who may have saved our community last year with the MK banned OiN he was going to hold; unfortunately he seems to be the Galileo of our community as we all disagreed with him and convinced him to change his ruleset. Your genius was ahead of your time Niko.

I don't see how justifying MK's advancement in the metagame being due to the players flocking to him could be a good thing. This just means it's going to continue like this, more and more players will flock to MK, his metagame will continue to accelerate while other characters stagnate even further. Someone (I don't recall who) in the ban poll mentioned that he likes the centralization of MK in the metagame because it forces the character boards to evolve their own metagame to be able to compete. In a perfect world where people working harder always equates to more findings this would be true. Unfortunately the truth is that a lot of game-changing discoveries across the entire history of gaming have been made by accident. I would much rather see a large number of players of each character each with a chance to stumble on a great finding, than a few people spending ridiculous amounts of time trying to find something when they don't even know what they're looking for.

A testament to this is the Ness boards; thesage only plays Brawl+ now, ViceGrip stopped posting, FOW never really posted to begin with, and Ref gave up on the game a long time ago - all of our most informed and informative players are gone, all of our metagame information is horribly outdated, and anyone wandering the boards looking for a secondary is going to find a dry unwelcoming wasteland in the Ness boards. Sadly I've looked around the other character boards, and Ness is far from the only character suffering from this. The MK boards on the other hand are a blooming paradise, and no doubt where a lot of these wanderers are going to find themselves.

Now with all that said I do feel there is a possible alternative to banning MK, but most people will dislike it due to their irrational predisposition against "gay" stages. There are 3 stages in this game that MK actually does bad on. One of them is actually too stupid to even try arguing for it's legality (75m). One of them actually used to be a standard counterpick in the early days of Brawl until every stage with walk-offs and walls started getting banned solely because of D3 (Bridge of Eldin). The last one even used to be a counterpick in Melee, but eventually suffered the same fate as Bridge (Onett). D3 is the only thing that really breaks these two stages, and there are 12 characters who don't suffer from his chain-grabs on these stages at all, and two of them are arguably the easiest characters in the game to learn (oh look one is MK). MK can't gimp you on these stages, can't effectively ledge-camp, and suffers due to low ceilings. Obviously there are problems with these stages, but I'm just suggesting if you are adamantly against the MK ban then instead try hosting a tourney where MK is legal but so are these two stages.

 

[KingAce]

haha good **** hype you basically said all that I wanted to say for now....
LOL AVARICE CALLING NIKO A GALILEO? WOWW LMFAO
Ok the whole point of niko putting that mk ban was for more people to come, and notice how like a week before the tourny he changed it back to mk unbanned? He told me himself that was his plan all along so attendance would grow =)

 

[Violent-nin]

As far as tournament attendance goes, who knows if it's all the MK players who scare people from attending.

It could easily just be people are tired of Brawl and picked up a more entertaining fighting game or something else to their liking. Not everyone will play Brawl as long as some people played Melee. Hell I would of probably quit Brawl a long time ago if I wasn't use Random and constantly changing characters. Simply for Brawl and Brawl alone using just one character is simply boring, I never had this problem in Melee or SF4 or SC2, etc.

Edit:

Then again, I'm an all around gamer and look to be competitive in a variety of different games, not just Smash.

 

[Cyan_]

LOL AVARICE CALLING NIKO A GALILEO? WOWW LMFAO

bahahaha

niko *****

 

[nickcam]

People are still using the arguement that ally ***** mk so mk isnt broken. From what i heard at evo M2k beat ally pretty badly. Even if ally killed every mk (which he pretty much does) he is one person, every other region is dominated by an MK. Basically this ban im assuming came about because the metaknight metagame which people are saying is so advanced has evolved to tactics like air planking. Not saying that all MK's do it but it is becoming more common and gets to the point where your not gonna win a game if u play this game to approach. Who wants to sit there and camp all day. **** i dont even go on camping trips their boring as hell.

 

[KingAce]

lol its not just ally ****** mk. look at holy he ***** every mk here and he still continues to **** most of the metaknights here. percon ***** mks with KIRBY. swordgard ***** mks here. docs diddy/snake ***** mks as well. and that is at the highest level of competition in our scene

 

[Hype]

give me a day or two and my MK would be tournament ready. His game is easy to play, the recovery is mindless, his attacks have stupid priority, hitboxes, etc. The game serves MK on a plate to you. I'm not sure where you're spending time and effort on improving your MK.

I highly doubt you would place top 5 after only 2 days of playing MK. I think you underestimate the complexity of playing MK on a high(ish) level.

I'd also like to point out that MK's "metagame" (you guys abuse that term so much) is only so "advanced" because the character is inherently broken. That means he's easy to use, that means he's going to be picked up by everyone. M2K has nothing to do with MK's "advancement"..the character is miles ahead of every other character BAKED INTO THE GAME

Here's a paradox:

You state that MK's accessibility is irrelevant at the highest level of play. Guess what? The highest level of play (whatever the **** that means in Brawl..who can tornado fastest?) is dominated by MK, save for one player. That means these people get to the top riding on the coattails of MK's gayness. That means you, unfortunately. Meaning it's not exactly skill that's getting them there, it's the accessibility of the character. So yes, it does matter that he's easy to pick up.

I agree that his metagame is advanced because MK is the best character. I also agree that is easier learning curve is influincing it as well. I do however believe M2K had a lot to do with his advancement. He popularized so many of the tactics that are seen in MK players today such as: Uair juggle traps, invincible Nairs, Uair chain to tornado 0-death, dimensional cape recovery.

The top level of play is not dominated by MKs. Genesis and Apex the two largest brawl tournaments had only 3 MKs in the top 8 (people who made money). Top MK Players like M2K don't get to the top because of "MK's gayness," he was the best melee player without MK. Of course M2K has skill. There is similar situations for many of the other top MK's as well (DSF). At the Highest level of play it's the player not the charcater.

 

[KingAce]

Wow I just read that a day or two and your MK would be tournament ready? How stupid can a person get.. lol I will put any amount of $$ on the line that my snake (who I only play in friendlies once in a while) will beat your mk at any point in time. That goes out to all the other people who think they can just pick up mk and get top 5.

 

[Mikey7]

haha good **** hype you basically said all that I wanted to say for now....
LOL AVARICE CALLING NIKO A GALILEO? WOWW LMFAO
Ok the whole point of niko putting that mk ban was for more people to come, and notice how like a week before the tourny he changed it back to mk unbanned? He told me himself that was his plan all along so attendance would grow =)

This right here, is my whole argument from here on out.

 

[KingAce]

the funny thing was though, is that at the time not as many people cared. people didnt specifically go out of their way to go to that tournament just because mk was banned. when niko announced mk was unbanned, people didnt really care either lol. its just recently that people have started to complain about mk.

metaknight is completely beatable, and I dont understand how you guys can really argue still about mk being too dominant. look at hypes post 3 mks in top 8 for genesis and apex, both which was not won by an mk. also only 30% of the prize money is won by mk. those statistics look natural for any best character in a game.. lol

 

[Mikey7]

The argument needs to go from top level -> why our tournies have 20 people, that is the real issue

Edit: totally forgot: Dojo vs Dehf and Dojo vs Ninjalink lol, getting beat down, then running to the edge to save himself...MK you're soooo cool

 

[Violent-nin]

I'm pretty sure people just lost interest in Brawl as a whole. With SFIV , BB, and so on out there, most fighting game purist won't bother with competitive smash.

That's just my opinion, but I really don't see MK banning increasing the attendance of our tournaments.

 

[nickcam]

1. Ally - Snake
2. M2K - Meta Knight -
3. Tyrant - Meta Knight
4. Dojo - Meta Knight

Top 4 of genesis. Ally is not human so he doesnt count. I already said that at the last big tourney (Evo) Ally was beaten quite handily by m2k. Top 4 of an over 300 entrants tourney is mk. You cant argue that

 

[Hype]

There's a bunch of things I need to say here so this is going to get long (not as long as Hype's wtf post above).

Haha, I saw this wall of text and I thought "Good lord..."

First and foremost - STOP USING THE SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT, IT IS COMPLETE TRASH. Using the characters who have been argued most, Snake has numerous characters who go close to even or better with him (D3, Wario, DK, ZSS, Falco, Pika, ROB) and IC's have several characters spread across the entire tier list that do the same (Marth, G&W, Ness, ZSS, Peach, even Jiggs), and this is even without limiting the infinite grabs. MK has one (Snake) - maybe two or three (Wario, Falco). It is not hard to see that one single character will never come close to dominating the way MK does.

When I listed the characters that go even (or 45:55) with MK (Snake, Falco, Wario, Diddy, ICs) it was not my opinion. It was the directly from the match up thread where these ratios were thoroughly debated by knowledge players in the community. I even opted not to say Kirby even though the MK boards say it is 55:45.

also I just like to mention again MK takes an average of ~30% of the pot. I wouldn't say MK is dominating Brawl.

If you play campy and 'gay' enough with MK against any non-MK character other than perhaps Snake, you will win. The only other two characters who can challenge this (Wario and Falco) do so by camping, but we all know MK has the tools to get around Falco's camp, and the evolution of MK's metagame has now found that he can actually use Wario's own air-camp strategy against Wario - and be better at it.

First of all you cannot air camp Wario lol. His Uair is not something you want to mess with and also if he has a fart charged you definitely don't want to be above him. There's actually a lot of characters that you can't air camp, pretty much anyone with a good projectile game with a few exceptions. Falco can be air camped to some extent but it's stage dependant, BF is the only neutral I can see this working on.

I'm not talking about planking just to stall, that should be banned.

Hype you seem to think I'm just trying to make Ness tourney viable with this, but that is so far from the truth. Firstly I have been beating low-mid level MK's with Ness for a long time (I even took a bracket game off of you). It only recently came to my attention due to an MK abusing the "gay" playstyle I outlined above that Ness simply cannot win against it - but I don't care about that. I care about the fact that very few characters can win against that. The more people who hit the realization that I did, the more people will drop their mains who they love playing and pick up MK. We have enough **** MK's as it is. I want a varied tourney scene, that is all. I'm probably not even going to continue playing Ness even if MK gets banned so don't try to pin this on me as some sort of warped character bias. For the record, Ness is and always has been tourney viable; people are only now starting to see it (there's a reason Ness is above G&W and TL in tourney placings right now); however, no character is viable against certain MK strategies..

My mistake I misunderstood.

I disagree about that last statement though. The Match up ratios are determined under the assumption that both players have competent knowledge of the match up (i.e. both players are playing in a way to maximize their chance of winning). Yet we still have even match ups vs MK. Even if MK knows the match up and is playing how he should it can still be an even fight against a handful of characters (like 5).

This is the main problem. While every other character's advancement in the metagame is focused on finding ways to win matchups they have difficulty with, MK's advancement is focused on finding ways to revert characters who find ways to beat him back to being unable to beat him.

That's not a problem. That is just characters' metagames trying to advance by focusing on thier hardest match ups (which may or may not be MK). All characters are trying to improve in all their match ups. How is this a problem?

Galileo stuff

lol, Even though I don't agree it was well said.

I don't see how justifying MK's advancement in the metagame being due to the players flocking to him could be a good thing. This just means it's going to continue like this, more and more players will flock to MK, his metagame will continue to accelerate while other characters stagnate even further.

Its not exactly a good thing, its just explains why he seems so much better than the rest of the cast. In theory the metagame should be increasing logarithmically. In other words, we will get to a point where there's almost no more startegies and AT's to find with MK and all chacraters should get closers.

A testament to this is the Ness boards; thesage only plays Brawl+ now, ViceGrip stopped posting, FOW never really posted to begin with, and Ref gave up on the game a long time ago - all of our most informed and informative players are gone, all of our metagame information is horribly outdated, and anyone wandering the boards looking for a secondary is going to find a dry unwelcoming wasteland in the Ness boards. Sadly I've looked around the other character boards, and Ness is far from the only character suffering from this. The MK boards on the other hand are a blooming paradise, and no doubt where a lot of these wanderers are going to find themselves.

The MK boards work hard by sharing ideas and tactics. Why should they be penalized for thier hard work by banning Metakight.

 

[AvariceX]

Mikey is exactly right. Top level isn't the issue here. The issue is low-intermediate level players being discouraged by a metagame saturated with MK. Phil - the more noobs we have the more money you will win .

 

[Mikey7]

I'm not talking about planking just to stall, that should be banned.

This + IDC.

We have a character who HAS THE TOOLS to sit there and never get hit the whole match...yet we ban the tactic? Wtf kind of community is this, the character basically breaks the game and oh yeah just ban that 1 tactic, lets ignore the fact that this character can be untouchable.

MK is very ST Akuma-like lol. I hate to bring this up because I don't like to compare sf and smash...but here are two issues OUT OF MANY
1) invincibility on wakeup (teleporting out) -> planking, IDC
2) trading on jump in (even trading with shoryuken) -> transcendent priority.

Not to mention HE ***** OUR SMASH SCENE

 

[Hype]

Hype, ZSS + G&W isn't the best team in the game.

I know the bucket thing is amazing, but it's far from the best team in the game. trust me, me and joe tried it.

it's pretty awesome though

Maybe you're right. G&W + ZSS doesn't seem to be doing anything special on a national level, but that might just be cuz no one plays them in in singles so they're not confident enough to use them in doubles.

1. Ally - Snake
2. M2K - Meta Knight -
3. Tyrant - Meta Knight
4. Dojo - Meta Knight

Top 4 of genesis. Ally is not human so he doesnt count. I already said that at the last big tourney (Evo) Ally was beaten quite handily by m2k. Top 4 of an over 300 entrants tourney is mk. You cant argue that

The way that's persented is with bias because the number of people listed was made from an MK bad point of view (I know u didn't do this on purpose it was copy/pasted from the poll thread).

Seriously what is the signifigance of top 4? I Guarantee if an MK got 5th they would have shown top 5. Or if an MK didn't get 4th they would have shown top 3. I personally chose to show top 8 becuase it was all the people that got money. It looks a hell of a lot less in favour of the ban.

1. Ally - Snake - $2,336
2. M2K - Meta Knight - $1,460
3. Tyrant - Meta Knight - $876
4. Dojo - Meta Knight - $584
5. ADHD - Diddy Kong - $233
6. DEHF - Falco - $175
7. Fiction - Wario - $118
8. SK92 - Falco - $59

 

[Hype]

Mikey is exactly right. Top level isn't the issue here. The issue is low-intermediate level players being discouraged by a metagame saturated with MK. Phil - the more noobs we have the more money you will win .

Not to mention HE ***** OUR SMASH SCENE

I agree that this is a problem but I'm not convinced it was completely because of MK.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that it's MK's fault, I'm just not convinced that it is. I Personally think the noobs just don't want to go to a tourney every week, it's too much for them.

 

[Cyan_]

Maybe you're right. G&W + ZSS doesn't seem to be doing anything special on a national level, but that might just be cuz no one plays them in in singles so they're not confident enough to use them in doubles.

I think Hylian said that ZSS is a good partner for G&W, but he tried it and doesn't like it as much as MK as a partner or something like that.

gimmicky stuff like that don't make the best team

 

[Mikey7]

Ambrose + Kingace beat Ally + Holy lol, if that doesnt show that double MK is the best team then NOTHING will

 

[Hype]

I think Hylian said that ZSS is a good partner for G&W, but he tried it and doesn't like it as much as MK as a partner or something like that.

gimmicky stuff like that don't make the best team

Fair enough.

Omnigay is still too pro though .

 

[Hype]

Ambrose + Kingace beat Ally + Holy lol, if that doesnt show that double MK is the best team then NOTHING will

Lol ROB Can't do anything vs double MK. Holy's a beast though.


EDIT: Off topic: I have the most amazing video that im gonna upload tonight.

 

[The_Fool]

I really don't think these arguments are going to change anybodys opinion on the subject.
The bottom line is, Hype and Ace dont want mk banned, and everyone else either wants him banned or doesnt care (amirite?).
I don't think I really need to explain myself any further.

 

[pastaboy]

hype you used to main marth right? what happened with that huh

 

[Hype]

I think the debate is important.

Informed democracy > democracy

Edit:

hype you used to main marth right? what happened with that huh

You're right. I went to a tournament back in Nov with him. He wasn't right for me.

 

[The_Fool]

Well the democracy makes the descision after the debate, but the mk debate has been going on for a year now.
When do you think the community will finally be informed on mk?
The mk stalling needs to stop.

 

[FatalX]

lol the coming tournies would be T10, Havoc, and SNES for me

whens T10? lol T9 was my first tourney

also im very curious, IC players usually get beaten by mk due to air planking or just mk being gay. if mk is going to get banned in GTAN, why the **** are infinites still allowed for the ICs. lol your gonna see doc and ambrose starting to win a **** load of tournaments and then you guys are gonna ***** about the IC infinites lmao.

Diddy, GW, and Snake can work well against ICs also

ANYWAY yo forreal just wait for the vote to end and well see this ****.
as much as I want MK banned, the decision is made by the people who run this community.
And it just so happens the people who run this community happen to use MK.

so lolnobansrry

btw, the way the votes work is weird, it isnt if the Pro Ban reaches 66%. One vote will be added for the side that reaches majority and an additional vote for every 2.5% past 50%. So right now, if Pro Ban is at 55% and Anti Ban is at 45%, Pro Ban has 3 votes and Anti Ban has 0. But those are only the votes of the community.

The SBR's votes are what count, and add up to the total votes of the community, so really this vote off doesnt mean much ****