The First Party general support thread

[fogbadge]

A next developer probably wouldn't be able to handle a DKC platformer like that, no you're right. And indeed the timing isn't great either with Retro doing Metroid, and having to start from scratch even. But we don't have to get platformer games only. I'd love to have a few spin off titles, and maybe even a remake of say, the original Donkey Kong Country (which is also of course a platformer) or a total new 3D game with overworld exploration and beat em up elements? Maybe a small spin off from DKC Returns platforming, staring only Diddy and Dixie with traditional Rare styled tag teaming? Something on the eShop like specific Kong only levels, or Rambi or mine cart levels alone?

donkey kong 64 2?

 

[Arthur97]

A next developer probably wouldn't be able to handle a DKC platformer like that, no you're right. And indeed the timing isn't great either with Retro doing Metroid, and having to start from scratch even. But we don't have to get platformer games only. I'd love to have a few spin off titles, and maybe even a remake of say, the original Donkey Kong Country (which is also of course a platformer) or a total new 3D game with overworld exploration and beat em up elements? Maybe a small spin off from DKC Returns platforming, staring only Diddy and Dixie with traditional Rare styled tag teaming? Something on the eShop like specific Kong only levels, or Rambi or mine cart levels alone?

Would a 3D one really be a spinoff? Either way, a 3D game would still not be easy to do right as history has shown. It's probably harder. However, with recent developments, that might be a case where DK should finally be done by Nintendo themselves again. Problem is, I don't know how the main Nintendo devs are divided up. They certainly have more resources than Retro, but they're also more likely to focus on other IPs.

As for more traditional spin offs go, they already tried that to...well, whatever you call that.

 

[Quillion]

Would a 3D one really be a spinoff? Either way, a 3D game would still not be easy to do right as history has shown. It's probably harder. However, with recent developments, that might be a case where DK should finally be done by Nintendo themselves again. Problem is, I don't know how the main Nintendo devs are divided up. They certainly have more resources than Retro, but they're also more likely to focus on other IPs.

As for more traditional spin offs go, they already tried that to...well, whatever you call that.

DK is traditionally an outsourced franchise from DKC on, so I highly doubt any of the EPD teams will be able to take anything more than a supervisory role.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I made a Top 10 for this once:

Spoiler: Warning: Large Images, but High Quality ;)

View attachment 243430
1. PIRANHA PLANT

View attachment 243431
2. IMPA

View attachment 243432
3. WALUIGI

View attachment 243433
4. DIXIE KONG

View attachment 243434
5. BANDANA WADDLE DEE

View attachment 243435
6. TOAD

View attachment 243436
7. ISAAC

View attachment 243437
8. SPRING MAN

View attachment 243438
9. KRYSTAL
(If anyone can make this image transparent, I'll kiss you!)
View attachment 243439
10. PAPER MARIO

????
I'm confused, are these your Top 10 most wanted 1st Parties?
Because the Plant is already playable in the game, why are you putting it in a list of your requested characters?

 

[Ben Holt]

????
I'm confused, are these your Top 10 most wanted 1st Parties?
Because the Plant is already playable in the game, why are you putting it in a list of your requested characters?

It's a Firsy Party DLC wishlist.
Since Piranha Plant is already DLC, he is included by default.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

It's a Firsy Party DLC wishlist.
Since Piranha Plant is already DLC, he is included by default.

It still seems a little strange to me to include a character that's already DLC as part of a wishlist. It's not like Plant's part of a Fighter's Pass, everything is individual DLC anyway.

I mean it's your wishlist and you can do what you want with it, it just confuses me a little. I like most of the characters on there though, and there isn't anyone that I would be explicitly against, although I would make some additions in my own. (Ex: I think Toad would have a Toadette alt and Spring Man would have a Ribbon Girl alt.)

 

[Ben Holt]

It still seems a little strange to me to include a character that's already DLC as part of a wishlist. It's not like Plant's part of a Fighter's Pass, everything is individual DLC anyway.

I mean it's your wishlist and you can do what you want with it, it just confuses me a little. I like most of the characters on there though, and there isn't anyone that I would be explicitly against, although I would make some additions in my own. (Ex: I think Toad would have a Toadette alt and Spring Man would have a Ribbon Girl alt.)

I prefer Echoes to alts, but yes. I would absolutely want those characters whether they be alts or Echoes.

Personally, I think MANY characters deserve Echoes.
- Ms. Pac-Man
- Proto Man
- Dry Bowser
- Zack Fair
- Jeanne
- Funky Kong
- Octoling
- Louie
- Gooigi
- Shadow
- Raichu
- Zoroark (Lucario without Aura Mechanic. Replace Side B with Wolf's Side B)
- Dragonite (Smash 4 Zard)
- Ninten
- Black Shadow (Melee Ganondorf)
Crash Bandicoot (We all know he's coming) - Coco Bandicoot
I haven't played 3 Houses yet, but I'm sure Byleth could be an echo of someone.

One could argue that that's too many character slots, but I'm fine with 100, 200, or 500 characters.
And if it still bothers people, Echo Fighters can have their unique slots disabled.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I prefer Echoes to alts, but yes. I would absolutely want those characters whether they be alts or Echoes.

Personally, I think MANY characters deserve Echoes.
- Ms. Pac-Man
- Proto Man
- Dry Bowser
- Zack Fair
- Jeanne
- Funky Kong
- Octoling
- Louie
- Gooigi
- Shadow
- Raichu
- Zoroark (Lucario without Aura Mechanic. Replace Side B with Wolf's Side B)
- Dragonite (Smash 4 Zard)
- Ninten
- Black Shadow (Melee Ganondorf)
Crash Bandicoot (We all know he's coming) - Coco Bandicoot
I haven't played 3 Houses yet, but I'm sure Byleth could be an echo of someone.

One could argue that that's too many character slots, but I'm fine with 100, 200, or 500 characters.
And if it still bothers people, Echo Fighters can have their unique slots disabled.

You Missed
- Hilda
- Birdo
- Medusa
- Dark Meta Knight


Also if characters can have multiple echos
- Viridi
- Roll
- Jody Summer

 

[Ben Holt]

You Missed
- Hilda
- Impa

Hilda would be ok, but Impa being reduced to an Echo would be an insult, hence why she's on my DLC wishlist.

 

[Zinith]

An echo conversation? With me in the general vicinity? YOU FOOLS!!!

 

[AceAttorney9000]

My signature right now basically has all the First Party characters I'd want to see.

If we're talking Echo Fighters, here's my choices...

• 2ε. Funky Kong
• 11ε. Jody Summer
• 17ε. Twili Midna
• 35ε. Flygon
• 36ε. Dixie Kong
• 68ε. Digby

 

[fogbadge]

I prefer Echoes to alts, but yes. I would absolutely want those characters whether they be alts or Echoes.

Personally, I think MANY characters deserve Echoes.
- Ms. Pac-Man
- Proto Man
- Dry Bowser
- Zack Fair
- Jeanne
- Funky Kong
- Octoling
- Louie
- Gooigi
- Shadow
- Raichu
- Zoroark (Lucario without Aura Mechanic. Replace Side B with Wolf's Side B)
- Dragonite (Smash 4 Zard)
- Ninten
- Black Shadow (Melee Ganondorf)
Crash Bandicoot (We all know he's coming) - Coco Bandicoot
I haven't played 3 Houses yet, but I'm sure Byleth could be an echo of someone.

One could argue that that's too many character slots, but I'm fine with 100, 200, or 500 characters.
And if it still bothers people, Echo Fighters can have their unique slots disabled.

zoroark would really work as a lucario echo, their body types and abilities are too different

You Missed
- Hilda
- Birdo
- Medusa
- Dark Meta Knight


Also if characters can have multiple echos
- Viridi
- Roll
- Jody Summer

i dont think birdo would work as an echo either

 

[Sebas22]

Birdo makes for a good echo. The only things you need to change are:
- Instead of tongue, she absorbs like Kirby does.
- Instead of expelling eggs from the.... backside corporeal area, she spits them from the mouth.
- UpB eggs are solid. They deal more damage and bounce. Capable of hitting opponents after initial impact. Slower than Yoshi's eggs.

 

[NintenRob]

Your lists are pathetic, have at thee

-Shadow Mario (they do have the model already
-Funky Kong
-Ravio
-
-Yarn Yoshi
-Prince Fluff
-James McCloud
- I'll give it to Pachirusu, probably fits the body the closest of Pikachu clones
-Gooigi
-Paula (or Ninten)
-Black Shadow
-Clefairy
-
-Dry Bowser
-Baby Bros
-Impa
-Hilda
-Dr Luigi
-Plusle/Minum
-Leon
-
-Kafei
-Demise
-Mega Mewtwo X
-
-Mrs Game and watch?
-Dark Meta Knight
-
-Gandrayda
-Wario Man
-Liquid (or MGS2 Raiden)
-Black Knight
-Piplup (or Wartortle)
-Grottle (or Bulbasaur)
- Flygon (or a Mega Charizard)
-Dixie Kong
- Kumatora or Claus
-Shadow
-Bonkers
-
-Zeraora
-Virtual Boy
-Tetra
-Panther
-Tom Nook
-Proto Man
-Ring Fit Adventurer
-Pauline and Mini Mario?
-Doc Louis?
-Sceptile
-Medusa
- Ms
-Tharja (or Morgan)
-Alvis or Malos, take your pick
-Give him his colours and maybe throw Boom Boom in with Koopalings
-Poochy and mini stork?
-
-Zack Fair
-Garon
-Jeanne
-Octolings
-Omega Ridley?
-
-Frederick
-KK Slider
-Don't Care, just go with Rawk Hawk
-Deku Baba
-Sakumi or whatever her name is? Or just cut him
-first game Hero
- Tooty with a Pink Breegull??? Or a washing machine
Terry-Girl Terry

 

[Mamboo07]

Here are my Echo Fighter choices:
Funky Kong =
Boshi =
Shadow Kirby =
Raichu =
Googi =
Black Shadow =
Dry Bowser =
Impa =
Hilda =
Galacta Knight =
Justin Bailey =
Big Boss =
Black Knight =
Mecha Sonic = (Sonic & Knuckles)
King D-Mind =
Louie =
Zeraora =
Bass =
Glass Joe =
Medusa =
Jeanne =

 

[BowserKing]

A few more echoes would not hurt

Black Shadow for
Dark Bowser for
Dark Meta Knight for
Dixie Kong for
Shadow for (my main 3rd party echo)
Tom Nook for
Medusa for
Octoling for
Lord Fredrick for

And 3 more bonuses (for some of my supported first parties)

Shadow Lugia for Lugia

Ribbon-Girl for Spring-Man

Felix for Issac

I was hoping things will go back to the main topic, but at least first parties are still being discussed here

 

[fogbadge]

Birdo makes for a good echo. The only things you need to change are:
- Instead of tongue, she absorbs like Kirby does.
- Instead of expelling eggs from the.... backside corporeal area, she spits them from the mouth.
- UpB eggs are solid. They deal more damage and bounce. Capable of hitting opponents after initial impact. Slower than Yoshi's eggs.

surely birdo would spit eggs rather than inhale

Your lists are pathetic, have at thee

-Shadow Mario (they do have the model already
-Funky Kong
-Ravio
-
-Yarn Yoshi
-Prince Fluff
-James McCloud
- I'll give it to Pachirusu, probably fits the body the closest of Pikachu clones
-Gooigi
-Paula (or Ninten)
-Black Shadow
-Clefairy
-
-Dry Bowser
-Baby Bros
-Impa
-Hilda
-Dr Luigi
-Plusle/Minum
-Leon
-
-Kafei
-Demise
-Mega Mewtwo X
-
-Mrs Game and watch?
-Dark Meta Knight
-
-Gandrayda
-Wario Man
-Liquid (or MGS2 Raiden)
-Black Knight
-Piplup (or Wartortle)
-Grottle (or Bulbasaur)
- Flygon (or a Mega Charizard)
-Dixie Kong
- Kumatora or Claus
-Shadow
-Bonkers
-
-Zeraora
-Virtual Boy
-Tetra
-Panther
-Tom Nook
-Proto Man
-Ring Fit Adventurer
-Pauline and Mini Mario?
-Doc Louis?
-Sceptile
-Medusa
- Ms
-Tharja (or Morgan)
-Alvis or Malos, take your pick
-Give him his colours and maybe throw Boom Boom in with Koopalings
-Poochy and mini stork?
-
-Zack Fair
-Garon
-Jeanne
-Octolings
-Omega Ridley?
-
-Frederick
-KK Slider
-Don't Care, just go with Rawk Hawk
-Deku Baba
-Sakumi or whatever her name is? Or just cut him
-first game Hero
- Tooty with a Pink Breegull??? Or a washing machine
Terry-Girl Terry

prince fluff would make sense as an echo for yarn kirby not the one we got

 

[Sebas22]

Reminder that Dark Meta Knight and Galacta Knight are already alt colors for .
Morpho Knight echo, now we're talking.

surely birdo would spit eggs rather than inhale

Of course. I meant Birdo inhales the opponent and then spits them as eggs, for the Neutral B. She also spits them in her Up B. I don't think she uses her tongue in any game.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Your lists are pathetic, have at thee

-Shadow Mario (they do have the model already
-Funky Kong
-Ravio
-
-Yarn Yoshi
-Prince Fluff
-James McCloud
- I'll give it to Pachirusu, probably fits the body the closest of Pikachu clones
-Gooigi
-Paula (or Ninten)
-Black Shadow
-Clefairy
-
-Dry Bowser
-Baby Bros
-Impa
-Hilda
-Dr Luigi
-Plusle/Minum
-Leon
-
-Kafei
-Demise
-Mega Mewtwo X
-
-Mrs Game and watch?
-Dark Meta Knight
-
-Gandrayda
-Wario Man
-Liquid (or MGS2 Raiden)
-Black Knight
-Piplup (or Wartortle)
-Grottle (or Bulbasaur)
- Flygon (or a Mega Charizard)
-Dixie Kong
- Kumatora or Claus
-Shadow
-Bonkers
-
-Zeraora
-Virtual Boy
-Tetra
-Panther
-Tom Nook
-Proto Man
-Ring Fit Adventurer
-Pauline and Mini Mario?
-Doc Louis?
-Sceptile
-Medusa
- Ms
-Tharja (or Morgan)
-Alvis or Malos, take your pick
-Give him his colours and maybe throw Boom Boom in with Koopalings
-Poochy and mini stork?
-
-Zack Fair
-Garon
-Jeanne
-Octolings
-Omega Ridley?
-
-Frederick
-KK Slider
-Don't Care, just go with Rawk Hawk
-Deku Baba
-Sakumi or whatever her name is? Or just cut him
-first game Hero
- Tooty with a Pink Breegull??? Or a washing machine
Terry-Girl Terry

Meh, more echos are fun and all and there certainly are some strange omissions, but I don’t think we need one for every character in the game (clearly shown by how much stretching you had to do for most of them).

Balance is always key, having way too many echos would take away from possible Unique Fighters and no one wants that.

 

[fogbadge]

Reminder that Dark Meta Knight and Galacta Knight are already alt colors for .
Morpho Knight echo, now we're talking.


Of course. I meant Birdo inhales the opponent and then spits them as eggs, for the Neutral B. She also spits them in her Up B. I don't think she uses her tongue in any game.

has there been a game where birdo could inhale before?

 

[Mushroomguy12]

has there been a game where birdo could inhale before?

She could inhale Popple in Superstar Saga as one of her attacks and spit out eggs containing what she just inhaled afterwards, a la Yoshi.


At the 2:35 mark.

Here's the same attack in the 3DS Remake, at the 4:10 mark.

As an aside note, I think this should be Birdo's theme if she ever enters Smash, just like how Waluigi Pinball is associated with Waluigi.

Spoiler

 

[Arthur97]

So, what about stages? I don't see much here about what stages you would want to also come with them.

Personally, for a DK rep, I think it would be interesting if they could incorporate a mine level even if I'm not a fan of mine cart levels. For Funky, maybe something from DK 64.

For my Dark Meta Knight idea, simply the hub area for Amazing Mirror could work maybe with doors that temporarily take the fight to a different zone appearing from time to time.

For Bandanna Dee, I could see maybe a tour of the Dreamland worlds from Returns to Dreamland.

Rex, however, I have trouble thinking up one as a flying tour level would be kind of weird given the natures of two of the titans.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

So, what about stages? I don't see much here about what stages you would want to also come with them.

Personally, for a DK rep, I think it would be interesting if they could incorporate a mine level even if I'm not a fan of mine cart levels. For Funky, maybe something from DK 64.

For my Dark Meta Knight idea, simply the hub area for Amazing Mirror could work maybe with doors that temporarily take the fight to a different zone appearing from time to time.

For Bandanna Dee, I could see maybe a tour of the Dreamland worlds from Returns to Dreamland.

Rex, however, I have trouble thinking up one as a flying tour level would be kind of weird given the natures of two of the titans.

Dixie Kong could have a Tropical Freeze stage. Imagine a DK stage that isn't a Jungle, the possibilities are endless. I think they could do a nice ice level from that game.

 

[Perkilator]

So, just a thought; if a GBA Smash game was released in, say, 2004, what would your 20-man roster be? Mine:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6. /
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13. Blaziken
14.
15.
16.
17. Lyn
18. DeMille
19. Balloon Fighter
20. Mach Rider

 

[UserKev]

So, just a thought; if a GBA Smash game was released in, say, 2004, what would your 20-man roster be?

Aside from characters already in the game, original 12:
Ridley
Lyn
King K. Rool
Daisy
Wario
Dixie Kong
Isaac
Skull Kid

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Huh, I just found out about this thread today. I need to pay more attention. Here to express my support for Bandana Dee.

So, just a thought; if a GBA Smash game was released in, say, 2004, what would your 20-man roster be?/QUOTE]

Interesting topic.
I'll go with:

 

[fogbadge]

She could inhale Popple in Superstar Saga as one of her attacks and spit out eggs containing what she just inhaled afterwards, a la Yoshi.


At the 2:35 mark.

Here's the same attack in the 3DS Remake, at the 4:10 mark.

As an aside note, I think this should be Birdo's theme if she ever enters Smash, just like how Waluigi Pinball is associated with Waluigi.

Spoiler

i thought thats where it was

 

[Quillion]

I still think the only echo that's absolutely needed is TP/OoT Link for Link. ALBW echoes won't fly.

 

[Wigglerman]

I still think the only echo that's absolutely needed is TP/OoT Link for Link. ALBW echoes won't fly.

I still argue Dixie needs to be in before more Link add ons. Even if they couldn't make her a fully unique fighter they can easily make her 'semi clone' status with Diddy by adjusting a few moves/properties to make her work. I feel she has earned it more than more Links, honestly. And would round out the DK roster well

 

[fogbadge]

I still think the only echo that's absolutely needed is TP/OoT Link for Link. ALBW echoes won't fly.

bit odd for some whos repeatedly said they hate tp

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

If I'm gonna be entirely honest, I'm not exactly on board with echoes. Don't get me wrong, it's a better label than clones, but I don't think they were a necessary reason to add 8 more costumes for a few similar characters. Individually, they probably don't negate a unique character, but with how many echoes we got in Ultimate I could easily argue we'd have at least one more unique character more than halfway finished in the span of Ultimate's release if they weren't in. Of course, it would make the newcomer selection shallow... as if it wasn't already, but whatever. Maybe I just don't care enough for what they did to justify echoes in Ultimate.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

I'd rather not see Echo Fighters who are basically just "alternate version of their base character". If Zelda is getting an Echo Fighter, it shouldn't be Twilight Princess Zelda, Toon Zelda, or Ocarina of Time Zelda... it should be a different character entirely like Twili Midna. Because isn't that partially of the purpose of Echo Fighters, to get characters like Chrom, Ken, and Daisy into the game who otherwise couldn't be in due to time constraints?

I wouldn't mind seeing stuff like Dry Bowser, Armored Mewtwo, and the Twilight Princess Zelda designs, but they should just be alternate costumes, not their own separate characters.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Here's my Echo Fighter wishlist y'all:

/Boshi
/Medusa
/Metal Sonic
/Funky Kong
/Dry Bowser
/Demise
/Galacta Knight
/Black Shadow
/Impa
/Big Boss
/Proto Man
/Ms. Pac-Man
/Ninten
/Black Knight (Assist Trophy promotion)
/Hilda

 

[Zero Suit Violet]

I'd rather not see Echo Fighters who are basically just "alternate version of their base character". If Zelda is getting an Echo Fighter, it shouldn't be Twilight Princess Zelda, Toon Zelda, or Ocarina of Time Zelda... it should be a different character entirely like Twili Midna. Because isn't that partially of the purpose of Echo Fighters, to get characters like Chrom, Ken, and Daisy into the game who otherwise couldn't be in due to time constraints?

I wouldn't mind seeing stuff like Dry Bowser, Armored Mewtwo, and the Twilight Princess Zelda designs, but they should just be alternate costumes, not their own separate characters.

I saw that proposal of Twili Midna as a Zelda echo and ... It just doesn't work at all ?
Firstly in proportion, ALBTW Zelda is smaller than TP Zelda, that was smaller than Link, who was smaller than Twili Midna, so her proportion would be widely different, and it's what got Isabelle labelled as a unique in the first place, proportions
Then, in term of attacks, it's just .. Wrong, putting the spells of the 3 Goddesses that banished the Twili to the Princess of their people is just wrong on ... Many levels, plus Phantom Summon would have made no sense, and if you put a different summon, you put a unique attack, so at this point just make her unique

Hilda would be one echo that would work perfectly with ALBTW Zelda though

 

[AceAttorney9000]

I saw that proposal of Twili Midna as a Zelda echo and ... It just doesn't work at all ?
Firstly in proportion, ALBTW Zelda is smaller than TP Zelda, that was smaller than Link, who was smaller than Twili Midna, so her proportion would be widely different, and it's what got Isabelle labelled as a unique in the first place, proportions
Then, in term of attacks, it's just .. Wrong, putting the spells of the 3 Goddesses that banished the Twili to the Princess of their people is just wrong on ... Many levels, plus Phantom Summon would have made no sense, and if you put a different summon, you put a unique attack, so at this point just make her unique

I don't see how they couldn't alter the attack animations and names to make them at least seem different, if still very much based on Zelda's. Plus, we already have Chrom, an Echo Fighter of Roy with a completely different Up Special move (which is admittedly based on Ike's, but even then it's still a little different).

 

[Zero Suit Violet]

I don't see how they couldn't alter the attack animations and names to make them at least seem different, if still very much based on Zelda's. Plus, we already have Chrom, an Echo Fighter of Roy with a completely different Up Special move (which is admittedly based on Ike's, but even then it's still a little different).

Because the goal of an echo is to be a low effort character ... Midna cannot be that due to
1: The proportion not fitting
2: The attacks not fitting, even if you change the looks of them, and no one have other moves she could borrow that would suit her magic

So as such, she would ask more effort than an echo, and at this point, well, just make her unique, not like Midna is a character that can solely gets in because echo, so in her case it's kinda dumb to push an ill fitted cloned character, when she have so much uniqueness to show, will just give another Ganondorf issue, where no one is happy because, it asked more effort to make, but it's still a piss poor representation of the character on many levels

 

[Geno Boost]

Random question would having Ninten as an echo for Ness would make sense?
Ninten came before ness so wouldn’t Ness be the echo?
Personally I prefer Ninten not being an echo and have his own play style just like Lucas

 

[Arthur97]

Echoes tend to be disrespectful to the echo to me. Especially since Sakurai is so dead set on not fully revamping a fighter.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Random question would having Ninten as an echo for Ness would make sense?
Ninten came before ness so wouldn’t Ness be the echo?
Personally I prefer Ninten not being an echo and have his own play style just like Lucas

I don't think there's any rule saying an echo has to debut after the original fighter, it's just something that happens to apply to the echos we have now. Ness is already an exception anyway because Earthbound is the only 1st Party series not to have the protagonist of its 1st installment be playable (the other 3 are all 3rd Parties (Final Fantasy, Persona, Dragon Quest), and all 4 series are RPGs). And in technical terms, Ninten technically debuted after Ness internationally in an official context. Even going strictly by Virtual Console releases, discounting the American SNES release, this is still the case for PAL territories as well.

 

[Door Key Pig]

Plus there was the statement from Sakurai that "it's hard to tell who's echoing who" with Simon and Richter as Simon took moves from Richter.