The First Party general support thread

[Dalek_Kolt]

A dumb idea I had was putting in Samurai Goroh as a Ganondorf echo (since they're both big guys with swords) and Black Shadow as a Captain Falcon Echo.
If not Echoes, at least clones/semiclones.

 

[Arthur97]

Isn't Samurai Goroh in every F Zero released? He isn't a one off at least. He'd be a legit newcomer pick. He fits the antagonistic role as Captain Falcon's rivalry and would have a potentially original moveset. I feel like Black Shadow is a overly discussed and gimmicky pick.

Black Shadow is the main villain of the series. He would be a logical next step. Also, how is he gimmicky? Honestly, F-Zero isn't brimming with much fighter potential. Even Samurai seems to have a hard time being anything that would stand out. At least by porting over Ganondorf's moveset, it allows for a super popular villain to get proper treatment.

 

[Wigglerman]

Black Shadow is the main villain of the series. He would be a logical next step. Also, how is he gimmicky? Honestly, F-Zero isn't brimming with much fighter potential. Even Samurai seems to have a hard time being anything that would stand out. At least by porting over Ganondorf's moveset, it allows for a super popular villain to get proper treatment.

But is that proper treatment? Giving F-Zero the Fire Emblem treatment by making everyone practically the same? I don't think that's 'proper' or even fitting. We all already agree for the most part that Ganon and Falcon sharing a move set isn't faithful or even proper. If B Shadow were to make it in, him just being a pallet swap would be the laziest thing if what you're looking for is a proper addition. That is why he'd be 'gimmickey'. He'd offer nothing of any real value and would be a paid addition (unless he came in a future installment as a base roster addition). I'm at a point now where I'd much rather they not bother adding the character if they can't do something unique with them. In Ganon's case they at least updated his Smashes so he isn't just 'slow C. Falcon' anymore.

 

[UserKev]

Black Shadow is the main villain of the series. He would be a logical next step. Also, how is he gimmicky? Honestly, F-Zero isn't brimming with much fighter potential. Even Samurai seems to have a hard time being anything that would stand out. At least by porting over Ganondorf's moveset, it allows for a super popular villain to get proper treatment.

I feel like Samurai Goroh is oddly more deserving. Black Shadow is the main villain of F Zero but that's it, really. He's just there as a villain while Samurai Goroh has a clear bigger purpose. Samurai Goroh has more to offer and exciting while B Shadow just screams "echo" If B Shadow does get in, its because by default, he's a villain. There's nothing else to the character.

 

[Sebas22]

If Black Shadow is so problematic, then add Deathborn. He is a stronger villain, is half-man and half-robot, one of his main abilities is warping/teleporting through space (so he can't just be a simple clone of Ganondorf or C. Falcon) and the most important, he's not a spirit. The only thing against him is that he's not as memorable as Black Shadow.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

I'm gonna be honest, the main reason why I want Samurai Goroh is he's the only character in the Melee intro that isn't playable yet. Besides the Runaway Five and the entirety of Gen 2.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Both Black Shadow and Samurai Goroh are great characters that have different moveset potentials and F-Zero imo warrants two uniques and an Echo.

 

[fogbadge]

He would be a logical next step.

there have been a number of next logical steps whove been skipped over

 

[Arthur97]

People's odd attachment to Black Shadow is why I proposed making Blood Falcon the clone. It wouldn't take as much effort to essentially make him Melee Ganondorf, and that frees up both Ganondorf and Black Shadow for unique movesets. Good luck figuring out what Black Shadow's would be. I mean, really Captain Falcon's moveset mostly isn't even his own. It's hold overs from the original concept.

there have been a number of next logical steps whove been skipped over

I said a logical step, not the logical step. Really, I want this more for Ganondorf's sake than F-Zero. F-Zero being a racer doesn't leave you with a whole lot of potential here. That, and it's almost dead status, I can see why it hasn't gotten a new fighter. I mean, Captain Falcon's meme power is likely the main if not only thing that even keeps the franchise relevant.

 

[Quillion]

Screw making Ganondorf more "faithful". He was more fun to play when he didn't have that stupid sword. I would've much preferred that they buffed the elbow and kicks. That was one of the biggest pandering betrayals just to satisfy a vocal minority.

Seriously, how would you feel if they bring in Dry Bowser to take up Bowser's Melee/Brawl animations?

 

[PhantomShab]

Screw making Ganondorf more "faithful".

Yeah right along with this opinion.

 

[Lenidem]

Yeah right along with this opinion.

I disagree. I still don't have the feeling to play as Ganondorf, especially since they changed his voice (I wonder why).

 

[PhantomShab]

I disagree. I still don't have the feeling to play as Ganondorf, especially since they changed his voice (I wonder why).

I was disagreeing too.

 

[Arthur97]

Wait, what's wrong with his voice? Isn't it the same guy just rerecorded?

 

[Calamitas]

Screw making Ganondorf more "faithful". He was more fun to play when he didn't have that stupid sword. I would've much preferred that they buffed the elbow and kicks. That was one of the biggest pandering betrayals just to satisfy a vocal minority.

Seriously, how would you feel if they bring in Dry Bowser to take up Bowser's Melee/Brawl animations?

"Vocal minority"? Pretty sure you're the one in the vocal minority there, pal.

 

[fogbadge]

"Vocal minority"? Pretty sure you're the one in the vocal minority there, pal.

they always assumes their opinions are the popular ones

 

[Wigglerman]

Screw making Ganondorf more "faithful". He was more fun to play when he didn't have that stupid sword. I would've much preferred that they buffed the elbow and kicks. That was one of the biggest pandering betrayals just to satisfy a vocal minority.

Seriously, how would you feel if they bring in Dry Bowser to take up Bowser's Melee/Brawl animations?

What does your second 'point' have to do with anything? Why would anyone WANT Bowser's old and tired animations brought back when he looks and plays like Bowser? Who'd want that silly 'fart propulsion' run animation back? Yikes.

Making Ganon faithful has been a massive demand for a long, long time. While it'd 'screw' with Smash continuity, it's not unprecedented for characters to get tools that hail from prior games. Look at Kirby, Mario, Yoshi, DK, and so on. They've all had changes over the years to continue to make them distinct yet play similarly. Ganon, however, with a change like giving him his sword, allows him to still play fundamentally the same but also make him more distinct than just being 'Beefy Falcon'. I still say they should have remade his kit from scratch but I think it's rough to do now since his move set is so ingrained in the series by this point. I'm still happy with the sword change and it keeps his core game play intact while still being more faithful than before.

He just needs some sort of magic use now. Maybe next game.

 

[Sysreq]

Who'd want that silly 'fart propulsion' run animation back? Yikes.

Oh god, I had forgotten about that lol That **** was dumb.

 

[Wigglerman]

Oh god, I had forgotten about that lol That **** was dumb.

We were so young, so naive.

 

[TheYungLink]

I interpreted Bowser's old run animation as "make a fast initial movement, then slide along the ground with your claws," with Bowser turning around being Bowser using those same claws to spin himself around.

Edit: it makes sense if we consider that Sakurai probably envisioned Bowser first as "a turtle monster, emphasis on turtle" and while turtles are actually faster than most people realize (look up videos of turtles running), most people still think of turtles as beings that can barely move (and to be fair, when turtles do run, it takes a LOT out of them, which is why it's so rare for them).

 

[PhantomShab]

The old Bowser is a perfect example of Sakurai's own interpretations of characters making them look absolutely stupid and laughable. Like his headcanon of Ganondorf in Brawl was a slow and tired old man even though in Twilight Princess he would come sprinting at you full speed to clash swords. At least now he no longer runs like he **** himself even if he's still slow.

Mario and Luigi got it pretty bad too tbh. Starting with Brawl and onward, Mario has become more and more like a generic angry shoto while Luigi became a complete random humor weirdo. The man really needs to keep his headcanon in his head where it belongs.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

The man really needs to keep his headcanon in his head where it belongs.

I feel like I could have a field day with this quote. Without even necessarily pointing to Kirby.

 

[Arthur97]

Hey, at least Mario lightens up a little in his taunts (even if they got rid of the growing one, how could they?). Luigi, well, let's say that his Brawl render is my favorite as it isn't ridiculously goofy. It actually looks pretty cool.

So, then, what is the least accurate portrayal in Smash? Lucina's pretty bad as they somehow seem to get, well, most of her wrong.

 

[Quillion]

What does your second 'point' have to do with anything? Why would anyone WANT Bowser's old and tired animations brought back when he looks and plays like Bowser? Who'd want that silly 'fart propulsion' run animation back? Yikes.

Okay, maybe I can live without the goofy old run. But I much prefer Bowser as a monster in Smash. It's a fighting game; it's a good time for Bowser to let his wild side out.

Making Ganon faithful has been a massive demand for a long, long time. While it'd 'screw' with Smash continuity, it's not unprecedented for characters to get tools that hail from prior games. Look at Kirby, Mario, Yoshi, DK, and so on. They've all had changes over the years to continue to make them distinct yet play similarly.

And yet no one likes it when FLUDD was tacked on to Mario. Updating characters just makes them dated at best and less fun to play in most cases. Yes, I can tolerate or appreciate some "canon" changes like DK getting his roll or Wario moving his Shoulder Bash to F-Smash, but replacing Ganon's meaty elbow with a big generic sword, Mario losing Tornado as a special to FLUDD, or Bowser losing his monstrous headbutt were all examples of taking something awesome and replacing them with something less great.

Ganon, however, with a change like giving him his sword, allows him to still play fundamentally the same but also make him more distinct than just being 'Beefy Falcon'. I still say they should have remade his kit from scratch but I think it's rough to do now since his move set is so ingrained in the series by this point. I'm still happy with the sword change and it keeps his core game play intact while still being more faithful than before.

He just needs some sort of magic use now. Maybe next game.

But Ganondorf was so cool when he was using his magic for close strikes and forgoing weapons. He was showing off that he has no need to be a coward and be at a distance when he had such brute strength! Now with his sword, that arrogance is now undermined.

And really, I use this argument all the time, but people APPLAUDED Zelda not moving her Light Arrow to being a regular move after losing it as a Final Smash. I swear, people who want characters to be "more canon" are just hypocrites most of the time.

 

[PhantomShab]

But Ganondorf was so cool when he was using his magic for close strikes and forgoing weapons. He was showing off that he has no need to be a coward and be at a distance when he had such brute strength! Now with his sword, that arrogance is now undermined.

I never thought one of gaming's most iconic villains running around with a phoned in clone moveset looked cool. Looked lame as all hell to me. Hope they get rid of the rest of his cloned moves next game.

And really, I use this argument all the time, but people APPLAUDED Zelda not moving her Light Arrow to being a regular move after losing it as a Final Smash. I swear, people who want characters to be "more canon" are just hypocrites most of the time.

Yeah and you suddenly got real quiet months ago when I explained why Zelda needed to take a few creative liberties with her moveset and how it STILL ending up making more sense for her than Ganon's moveset does for him.

 

[Ben Holt]

I never thought one of gaming's most iconic villains running around with a phoned in clone moveset looked cool. Looked lame as all hell to me. Hope they get rid of the rest of his cloned moves next game.


Yeah and you suddenly got real quiet months ago when I explained why Zelda needed to take a few creative liberties with her moveset and how it STILL ending up making more sense for her than Ganon's moveset does for him.

I thought of some cosmetic changes and small moveset changes to make Ganondorf more canon.
His forward tilt (currently just a mean kick) could be a trident thrust with the same hitbox and frame data.
His jab could be the same except also summoning the energy tennis ball from OOT (I forgot the name, but you all know what I'm talking about.)
His down Smash could be the trident as well, just a cosmetic change.
His Up Smash is the only move I'd totally change. It could be a super long range upward trident thrust. Most similar to Palutena's Up Smash.

Beyond that, I suggest bringing back custom moves to give Ganondorf more canon options such as levitation and using his trident as a boomerang.

If you couldn't tell, I think Ganondorf needs his trident. It's by far his most iconic weapon.

Also, while on the topic of Ganondorf, please give him costumes for Pig Ganon, Twilight Princess Ganondorf, and Phantom Ganondorf.

 

[Guynamednelson]

His jab could be the same except also summoning the energy tennis ball from OOT

I'd actually make that his neutral B. Yeah, no more Warlock Punch humiliation, but at least you still got his up tilt.

 

[Ben Holt]

I'd actually make that his neutral B. Yeah, no more Warlock Punch humiliation, but at least you still got his up tilt.

I feel the Warlock Punch is too iconic to Smash at this point. At least his jab already has the hand blast animation.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Made some images for some characters I want to see added in along with their counterparts.

 

[Lenidem]

I was disagreeing too.

Oops! Sorry I got it wrong, English is not my first language.

 

[fogbadge]

The old Bowser is a perfect example of Sakurai's own interpretations of characters making them look absolutely stupid and laughable. Like his headcanon of Ganondorf in Brawl was a slow and tired old man even though in Twilight Princess he would come sprinting at you full speed to clash swords. At least now he no longer runs like he **** himself even if he's still slow.

Mario and Luigi got it pretty bad too tbh. Starting with Brawl and onward, Mario has become more and more like a generic angry shoto while Luigi became a complete random humor weirdo. The man really needs to keep his headcanon in his head where it belongs.

it would be nice for mario to be more upbeat, luigi not to be treated so badly, bowser, donkey and diddy to have their proper voices, bowser as a wild animal just doesnt feel right

 

[Quillion]

Yeah and you suddenly got real quiet months ago when I explained why Zelda needed to take a few creative liberties with her moveset and how it STILL ending up making more sense for her than Ganon's moveset does for him.

I was tired of that discussion at the time. My point still stands that people appreciate Zelda not having an iconic move while people still apply a double standard to Ganondorf.

And Ganondorf's brawling was a creative way of portraying his power and arrogance. Remember the ground punch from OoT, his kick in WW, and his kick and elbow strike in TP? It's a far more generalized moveset for Ganondorf than even Mario's dated moveset.

it would be nice for mario to be more upbeat, luigi not to be treated so badly, bowser, donkey and diddy to have their proper voices, bowser as a wild animal just doesnt feel right

Maybe the voices can be fixed, but no way. I much prefer the grittier portrayals in Smash. I especially want Bowser to go back to his Melee/Brawl animations.

 

[Lenidem]

My point still stands that people appreciate Zelda not having an iconic move while people still apply a double standard to Ganondorf.

I don't know who this people are. You're the only one talking about them and I never met one. Besides, Zelda already have canonic moves, and she is often sealing Ganon, actively (in Ocarina or in Breath of the Wild) or passively (in A Link to the Past), so that doesn't come out of nowhere. All in all, that's a totally different case.

 

[Hollywoodrok12]

I just realized it's been a whole year since the November 1st direct, meaning that it's been a year since pretty much all of our favorite first parties were deconfirmed between Sprits, Assist Trophies and Mii Outfits. Which character's deconfirmation was the worst of them for you guys?

 

[UserKev]

Mario and Luigi got it pretty bad too tbh. Starting with Brawl and onward, Mario has become more and more like a generic angry shoto while Luigi became a complete random humor weirdo. The man really needs to keep his headcanon in his head where it belongs.

Finally someone else mention it. Luigi is completely ruined in Smash when he could easily be simply handled. The real Luigi is in Mario Kart, Smash 64 and Mario Party.

 

[Lenidem]

I just realized it's been a whole year since the November 1st direct, meaning that it's been a year since pretty much all of our favorite first parties were deconfirmed between Sprits, Assist Trophies and Mii Outfits. Which character's deconfirmation was the worst of them for you guys?

Skull Kid. I think there is no need for explanations.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

I just realized it's been a whole year since the November 1st direct, meaning that it's been a year since pretty much all of our favorite first parties were deconfirmed between Sprits, Assist Trophies and Mii Outfits. Which character's deconfirmation was the worst of them for you guys?

My most-wanted characters I had no expectations for, but seeing Ken and Incineroar being confirmed as the final characters and the Assist Trophy section felt like a trainwreck in slow motion for Isaac fans to me.

 

[Arthur97]

I never thought one of gaming's most iconic villains running around with a phoned in clone moveset looked cool. Looked lame as all hell to me. Hope they get rid of the rest of his cloned moves next game.

I doubt it since Sakurai is overly concerned with keeping even cloned movesets. Hence why it needs a home so Ganondorf can get the respect he deserves.

it would be nice for mario to be more upbeat, luigi not to be treated so badly, bowser, donkey and diddy to have their proper voices, bowser as a wild animal just doesnt feel right

To be fair, DK did have more realistic noises in DKC.

I just realized it's been a whole year since the November 1st direct, meaning that it's been a year since pretty much all of our favorite first parties were deconfirmed between Sprits, Assist Trophies and Mii Outfits. Which character's deconfirmation was the worst of them for you guys?

Rex probably because of how they did it. It's all the worse now that I've actually played the game.

Finally someone else mention it. Luigi is completely ruined in Smash when he could easily be simply handled. The real Luigi is in Mario Kart, Smash 64 and Mario Party.

It has unfortunately seemed to bleed through a little into actual Mario games. Notably Mario and Luigi (though I don't know when the first one came out). I don't really like how much influence Smash has on other games when it should be the other way around.

My most-wanted characters I had no expectations for, but seeing Ken and Incineroar being confirmed as the final characters and the Assist Trophy section felt like a trainwreck in slow motion for Isaac fans to me.

That was a pretty lackuster final (non-DLC) trailer, plus, they dumped on Little Mac. At least Plant saved it.

 

[UserKev]

I just realized it's been a whole year since the November 1st direct, meaning that it's been a year since pretty much all of our favorite first parties were deconfirmed between Sprits, Assist Trophies and Mii Outfits. Which character's deconfirmation was the worst of them for you guys?

Mimikyu de-confirmed to assist trucked me the hardest since its the most recent character I put the most investment in. I liked almost everything about it. Won't be seeing it as a relevant contender again.

 

[PhantomShab]

I was tired of that discussion at the time. My point still stands that people appreciate Zelda not having an iconic move while people still apply a double standard to Ganondorf.

Nobody was celebrating Zelda losing her Light Arrows and I doubt you can actually show me anyone who was.

And Ganondorf's brawling was a creative way of portraying his power and arrogance. Remember the ground punch from OoT, his kick in WW, and his kick and elbow strike in TP? It's a far more generalized moveset for Ganondorf than even Mario's dated moveset.

Yes I remember those tiny millisecond long instances of him not fighting you with a blade or magic spells. Why don't we change Zelda's moveset into throwing books at people since that would be a creative way of portraying her wisdom, which is apparently good enough for you.

I just realized it's been a whole year since the November 1st direct, meaning that it's been a year since pretty much all of our favorite first parties were deconfirmed between Sprits, Assist Trophies and Mii Outfits. Which character's deconfirmation was the worst of them for you guys?

Bomberman and Skull Kid.

I doubt it since Sakurai is overly concerned with keeping even cloned movesets. Hence why it needs a home so Ganondorf can get the respect he deserves.

Oh I know it'll never really happen as long as Sakurai is making Smash Bros.

It has unfortunately seemed to bleed through a little into actual Mario games. Notably Mario and Luigi (though I don't know when the first one came out). I don't really like how much influence Smash has on other games when it should be the other way around.

Reminder that Smash caused a fire Piranha Plant to be added to the latest Mario Tennis because Nintendo confused ironic memeing for genuine support.