The First Party general support thread

[Door Key Pig]

Sakurai is a Fatal Fury fan. Terry is more a personal pick than a logical one.

*That Nintendo made as far as we know

Is he? I don't even know. Either way, I still blame that for how much love SF gets. Especially compared to Sonic which I really think should be the king of the third parties.

Is SF bigger than Sonic in Japan tho?

 

[Arcadenik]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Anyone see this today? Hopefully, it means good things for these IPs...

So the Assist Trophies might be getting new games or remakes for the Switch... they need all the support they can get before Smash 6 (it’s time to make move on from Ultimate already).

Same with Meowth and Toad... they seem to be getting more love in the games than before... and they really need all of our support.

 

[GoodGrief741]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Anyone see this today? Hopefully, it means good things for these IPs...

Wait, what's this coming from? Translated from where? If this is an official statement this is ducking massive!

 

[Guynamednelson]

it’s time to make move on from Ultimate already

No. It'll be longer than the wait for Brawl after Melee or 4 after Brawl, and I believe one the reasons post-pass DLC is a thing is because they couldn't plan this pass around any sort of disconfirmation complaints, unlike 4 which was a lot less pre-planned, hence them acknowledging Mewtwo complaints and Corrin not being too new.

 

[Wigglerman]

So the Assist Trophies might be getting new games or remakes for the Switch... they need all the support they can get before Smash 6 (it’s time to make move on from Ultimate already).

Same with Meowth and Toad... they seem to be getting more love in the games than before... and they really need all of our support.

If this is actually true, sign me up for Fossil Fighters. I never got a chance to play the sequels before though I loved the first one. Plus I just love 'monster collector/battle' games and one that revolves around fricken Dinosaurs is just A-OK in my book.

 

[fogbadge]

lets not get ahead of ourselves, theres a difference between wanting to bring and actually bringing

 

[GoodGrief741]

Looked into it, the translation appears to be for a comment on the article rather than the article itself. So this is as good as me listing franchises I want revived sadly.

Sorry to say that this is anything but official.

 

[BirthNote]

Banjo and Kazooie didn't get in because of Microsoft, they got in in spite of Microsoft (Just because they cooperated doesn't mean they didn't make things more difficult than they would have been otherwise).

Where's your source for this?

 

[Arthur97]

*That Nintendo made as far as we know

Is SF bigger than Sonic in Japan tho?

Sonic is just bigger overall. Besides, it was Japan that voted on Brawl's second third party, was it not?

Where's your source for this?

Uh, I don't really need a source for it having been easier had Nintendo bought Rare which them not buying them is why Microsoft was able to do so. That would have meant no need for licensing agreements since they would've owned the company. With the exception of maybe Pokemon, it's going to be easier working in house than having to work with outside forces. Even if those forces are very agreeable, because you still have to pay those forces to use them.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Sonic is just bigger overall. Besides, it was Japan that voted on Brawl's second third party, was it not?

Uh, I don't really need a source for it having been easier had Nintendo bought Rare which them not buying them is why Microsoft was able to do so. That would have meant no need for licensing agreements since they would've owned the company. With the exception of maybe Pokemon, it's going to be easier working in house than having to work with outside forces. Even if those forces are very agreeable, because you still have to pay those forces to use them.

If Microsoft wasn't an obstacle - and they weren't - then Banjo-Kazooie didn't get in "despite" them.

 

[BirthNote]

Sonic is just bigger overall. Besides, it was Japan that voted on Brawl's second third party, was it not?

Uh, I don't really need a source for it having been easier had Nintendo bought Rare which them not buying them is why Microsoft was able to do so. That would have meant no need for licensing agreements since they would've owned the company. With the exception of maybe Pokemon, it's going to be easier working in house than having to work with outside forces. Even if those forces are very agreeable, because you still have to pay those forces to use them.

It sounds like you've got your own narrative going, but you're not backing it up with anything. You do really need a source when reality and supporting evidence (Spencer saying twice that he's fine with B-K in Smash) are directly against what you're saying.

If Microsoft didn't give the OK, then no amount of fan outcry would've gotten B-K in the game. It doesn't hurt either party to say no in this case, the people who would've bought Ultimate have already bought the game before this announcement. They certainly cooperated and it makes no sense to come up with headcanons. Please back up your statements with actual sources.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

I think the novelty has already worn off. In Brawl and base Smash 4, they were special. Something truly hype, and they saved it for the best of the best (sans Snake). Now, we have Terry and Bayonetta. If they're concerned first parties just won't sell or can't generate the hype. Well, for one, Ridley and K. Rool were some of they hypest newcomers, and two, Terry is not very hype. That's just how it is. He's no Sonic or Mega Man. He's no Ryu or Cloud. He's probably not even a Joker. He may even be lower than Bayonetta who's not an icon.

The main reason Terry got in wasn't just because because he was popular or sellable, though. He got in because of his legacy, and by proxy SNK's legacy, with fighting games.

Back in the 90's when arcade games were still common, SNK was right up there with Capcom in revolutionizing the fighting game genre. Most of the fighting game mechanics you see in modern games (dodging, side-stepping, super meters, team-based gameplay) originated in Fatal Fury, Samurai Shodown, The King of Fighters, or another of SNK's fighting games. You may have seen that one interview where Sakurai credits one of the King of Fighters games as an inspiration for Smash Bros. (specifically an instance where he beat a less experienced opponent multiple times in The King of Fighters '95, which got him thinking about making a more accessible fighting game).

Of course, if you still want to bring hype into this... mind explaining these?

Spoiler: Spoilered for post length and language

Whenever I see certain posts like yours in this thread, I sometimes wonder if people use the topic as an excuse to bash third parties. I know that's likely not the case... but if you want to see more first parties characters in Smash Ultimate (I do too), explaining why shouldn't require bashing third parties by implying (or as I've seen on other sites, outright saying) that they're somehow not popular or important.

 

[GoodGrief741]

The main reason Terry got in wasn't just because because he was popular or sellable, though. He got in because of his legacy, and by proxy SNK's legacy, with fighting games.

Back in the 90's when arcade games were still common, SNK was right up there with Capcom in revolutionizing the fighting game genre. Most of the fighting game mechanics you see in modern games (dodging, side-stepping, super meters, team-based gameplay) originated in Fatal Fury, Samurai Shodown, The King of Fighters, or another of SNK's fighting games. You may have seen that one interview where Sakurai credits one of the King of Fighters games as an inspiration for Smash Bros. (specifically an instance where he beat a less experienced opponent multiple times in The King of Fighters '95, which got him thinking about making a more accessible fighting game).

Of course, if you still want to bring hype into this... mind explaining these?

Spoiler: Spoilered for post length and language

Whenever I see certain posts like yours in this thread, I sometimes wonder if people use the topic as an excuse to bash third parties. I know that's likely not the case... but if you want to see more first parties characters in Smash Ultimate (I do too), explaining why shouldn't require bashing third parties by implying (or as I've seen on other sites, outright saying) that they're somehow not popular or important.

I think the point was that there's nothing inherent about the third parties we're getting that makes them more hype than first parties we're getting or ones we could be getting. Because that's the argument frequently used to put down first party characters.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The main reason Terry got in wasn't just because because he was popular or sellable, though. He got in because of his legacy, and by proxy SNK's legacy, with fighting games.

Back in the 90's when arcade games were still common, SNK was right up there with Capcom in revolutionizing the fighting game genre. Most of the fighting game mechanics you see in modern games (dodging, side-stepping, super meters, team-based gameplay) originated in Fatal Fury, Samurai Shodown, The King of Fighters, or another of SNK's fighting games. You may have seen that one interview where Sakurai credits one of the King of Fighters games as an inspiration for Smash Bros. (specifically an instance where he beat a less experienced opponent multiple times in The King of Fighters '95, which got him thinking about making a more accessible fighting game).

Of course, if you still want to bring hype into this... mind explaining these?

Spoiler: Spoilered for post length and language

Whenever I see certain posts like yours in this thread, I sometimes wonder if people use the topic as an excuse to bash third parties. I know that's likely not the case... but if you want to see more first parties characters in Smash Ultimate (I do too), explaining why shouldn't require bashing third parties by implying (or as I've seen on other sites, outright saying) that they're somehow not popular or important.

It's not that SNK isn't important, but rather that the same people gatekeeping "Smash bubble" picks for not being ultra-mainstream enough should be concerned that the second fighting game to get a Smash fighter isn't Mortal Kombat or Tekken, and that on the same day it was revealed that Undertale, a game that's a lot more recognizable in the 2010s, would only be getting a costume and one song.

 

[Arthur97]

If Microsoft wasn't an obstacle - and they weren't - then Banjo-Kazooie didn't get in "despite" them.

They got in eventually. They may not have opposed it, quite the opposite, but the hassle of a licensing agreement is in and of itself more of an obstacle than first parties face. No matter how gung ho both parties are, that's still something lawyers and stuff have to look over and approve which takes time and money. And let's not kid ourselves that had things gone the other way and Nintendo bought them instead, that it would have taken so long to get them. I mean, unless Sakurai is just that weird which I won't rule out.

 

[GoodGrief741]

They got in eventually. They may not have opposed it, quite the opposite, but the hassle of a licensing agreement is in and of itself more of an obstacle than first parties face. No matter how gung ho both parties are, that's still something lawyers and stuff have to look over and approve which takes time and money. And let's not kid ourselves that had things gone the other way and Nintendo bought them instead, that it would have taken so long to get them. I mean, unless Sakurai is just that weird which I won't rule out.

That's still a terrible use of the word despite. It's no more an obstacle than any other licensing agreement.

 

[UserKev]

Can we go back to actually discussing first party characters? A 4th Kirby rep will most likely feel a completion gap to Sakurai, either Bandana Dee or Adeleine. My personal pick is Adeleine for sheer uniqueness but I empathize with Bandana Dee supporters. Earthbound seems to also be getting its 3rd and final rep, materialistically Pokey. A new Yoshi is possible with strong fan demand and Pikmin will get a newcomer next Smash.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

I fully expect future DLC down the road to bring us more first party characters... but with a caveat: the term "first party" doesn't just include the popular characters like Bandana Dee, Elma, Rex, Edelgard, or a Gen-8 Pokemon. It also technically includes characters and series like Mach Rider, the Excitebiker, Bubbles from Clu Clu Land, Style Savvy, the fighters from Pro Wrestling on NES, Urban Champion, the Balloon Fighter, Ayumi Tachibana from Detective Club, the Cheer Club from Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan / Elite Beat Agents, etc.

What I'm basically saying is that if more first party character show up as DLC, it's likely that at least one or two of them will more obscure "retro" picks like the Ice Climbers, as well as just generally obscure "left field" characters like Wii Fit Trainer. I personally wouldn't mind that, but what about you guys?

 

[GoodGrief741]

I fully expect future DLC down the road to bring us more first party characters... but with a caveat: the term "first party" doesn't just include the popular characters like Bandana Dee, Elma, Rex, Edelgard, or a Gen-8 Pokemon. It also technically includes characters and series like Mach Rider, the Excitebiker, Bubbles from Clu Clu Land, Style Savvy, the fighters from Pro Wrestling on NES, Urban Champion, the Balloon Fighter, Ayumi Tachibana from Detective Club, the Cheer Club from Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan / Elite Beat Agents, etc.

What I'm basically saying is that if more first party character show up as DLC, it's likely that at least one or two of them will more obscure "retro" picks like the Ice Climbers, as well as just generally obscure "left field" characters like Wii Fit Trainer. I personally wouldn't mind that, but what about you guys?

I don't expect that, but I'd be delighted.

 

[Kold Pizza]

I get that Nintendo wants to be buddy-buddy and patch things up with other companies, but the third party pandering has be halted or at least slowed down.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee Nintendo, the fans that give you so much love from their hearts as well as their wallets need to be heard.

Some first party franchises are overdue for more representation. The Legend of Zelda hasn’t had a newcomer since Melee because it’s been the same three Triforce characters (Yes, I don’t really count the different versions of Link or Zelda’s alter ego, Sheik). The DK franchise needs to get Dixie in this game, it would be the first time ever that the DK franchise got multiple newcomers in a Smash Bros. game. As for the Kirby franchise; Kirby, Meta Knight, and King Dedede are so fun to use in Smash, and getting Bandana Dee would make it the first time ever a spear wielder got into Smash. There’s plenty of other first party characters that come in mind such as 9-Volt or Captain Toad, etc.

 

[Arthur97]

I fully expect future DLC down the road to bring us more first party characters... but with a caveat: the term "first party" doesn't just include the popular characters like Bandana Dee, Elma, Rex, Edelgard, or a Gen-8 Pokemon. It also technically includes characters and series like Mach Rider, the Excitebiker, Bubbles from Clu Clu Land, Style Savvy, the fighters from Pro Wrestling on NES, Urban Champion, the Balloon Fighter, Ayumi Tachibana from Detective Club, the Cheer Club from Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan / Elite Beat Agents, etc.

What I'm basically saying is that if more first party character show up as DLC, it's likely that at least one or two of them will more obscure "retro" picks like the Ice Climbers, as well as just generally obscure "left field" characters like Wii Fit Trainer. I personally wouldn't mind that, but what about you guys?

While this game is missing a retro rep, I kind of doubt they'll pull one in DLC given their mentality. Going off their patterns, they just don't seem to want, or don't think first parties will sell well. Even though just about anything would probably sell as Smash DLC.

 

[fogbadge]

Can we go back to actually discussing first party characters? A 4th Kirby rep will most likely feel a completion gap to Sakurai, either Bandana Dee or Adeleine. My personal pick is Adeleine for sheer uniqueness but I empathize with Bandana Dee supporters. Earthbound seems to also be getting its 3rd and final rep, materialistically Pokey. A new Yoshi is possible with strong fan demand and Pikmin will get a newcomer next Smash.

materialistically?

 

[Mamboo07]

Can we go back to actually discussing first party characters? A 4th Kirby rep will most likely feel a completion gap to Sakurai, either Bandana Dee or Adeleine. My personal pick is Adeleine for sheer uniqueness but I empathize with Bandana Dee supporters. Earthbound seems to also be getting its 3rd and final rep, materialistically Pokey. A new Yoshi is possible with strong fan demand and Pikmin will get a newcomer next Smash.

Poochy would be my choice for a 2nd Yoshi rep.
For Pikmin, I'm going with the Titan Dweevil itself, Bandana Dee is my most wanted Kirby rep with Shake King from Wario Land.

 

[Sebas22]

Can we go back to actually discussing first party characters? A 4th Kirby rep will most likely feel a completion gap to Sakurai, either Bandana Dee or Adeleine. My personal pick is Adeleine for sheer uniqueness but I empathize with Bandana Dee supporters. Earthbound seems to also be getting its 3rd and final rep, materialistically Pokey. A new Yoshi is possible with strong fan demand and Pikmin will get a newcomer next Smash.

This would be great. By the way, does Shy Guy counts as a Yoshi character?

 

[Zinith]

This would be great. By the way, does Shy Guy counts as a Yoshi character?

It can, depending on what moveset you'd use

 

[UserKev]

This would be great. By the way, does Shy Guy counts as a Yoshi character?

Literally. The Shy Guys are mostly at home in Yoshi Island. Mario already has an enemy rep, PP.

 

[Oddball]

By the way, does Shy Guy counts as a Yoshi character?

Shy Guys are as much a Yoshi character as Yoshi is a Yoshi character.

They're both from Mario and typically when you think of them you think of the Mario series, but they're featured pretty heavily in Yoshi.

 

[Kold Pizza]

Shy Guy would be really nice! I’d like to see another Yoshi character getting a chance to shine! Imagine the match-ups, Shy Guy vs Piranha Plant.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Poochy would be my choice for a 2nd Yoshi rep.
For Pikmin, I'm going with the Titan Dweevil itself, Bandana Dee is my most wanted Kirby rep with Shake King from Wario Land.

When I first read this, I thought you were calling Bandana Dee a Titan Dweevil.

 

[fogbadge]

yeah shy guy would be awesome to fight as

 

[Arthur97]

We already got one Mario grunt. Let's not overdo it.

 

[Calamitas]

We already got one Mario grunt. Let's not overdo it.

Gotta agree there. Adding another Mario mook - even if they're more commonly associated with a Mario sub-series - really feels like the kinda "scraping the bottom of the barrel" that people who are generally against first-party newcomers love to bring up.

 

[Mamboo07]

When I first read this, I thought you were calling Bandana Dee a Titan Dweevil.

Whoops silly old me.
Here's my wanted first party fighters:
1. Bandanna Dee
2. Poochy
3. Shake King
4. Corviknight (and Zacian too!)
5. Titan Dweevil

 

[fogbadge]

well our first party line up is growing if these leaked pokemon are real

 

[Zinith]

Gotta agree there. Adding another Mario mook - even if they're more commonly associated with a Mario sub-series - really feels like the kinda "scraping the bottom of the barrel" that people who are generally against first-party newcomers love to bring up.

Trust me, there was a lot more demand for Shy Guy than there was Piranha Plant, and it's not because of the sub-series separation.

 

[Arthur97]

I would be really disapointed if our first party DLC was another Pokemon. It's already ridiculously represented and got a newcomer.

Trust me, there was a lot more demand for Shy Guy than there was Piranha Plant, and it's not because of the sub-series separation.

Fact still remains that we've gotten a Mario grunt. A second one in the same game would be pushing it.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I would be really disapointed if our first party DLC was another Pokemon. It's already ridiculously represented and got a newcomer.

But it didn't get a good newcomer.

Also, if you want to talk about ridiculous representation, look at Capcom vs. SNK 2 AKA Street Fighter vs. SNK. At least you can make a ton of distinct Nintendo teams in Smash that don't have any Pokemon.

 

[UserKev]

Completely disagree. Shy Guy has way to much moveset potential and is a beloved icon, it'd totally complete the Mario enemy captcha in Smash.

If you start adding Goombas and Koopas, than its ridiculous.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

But it didn't get a good newcomer.

Also, if you want to talk about ridiculous representation, look at Capcom vs. SNK 2 AKA Street Fighter vs. SNK. At least you can make a ton of distinct Nintendo teams in Smash that don't have any Pokemon.

And lots of series didn't get newcomers at all. Some of them not for multiple games. Some series still don't have one fighter, and others are still missing essential characters.

And at the end of the day, Pokemon still had a net gain of 4 characters from Smash 4 to Ultimate. That's more than generous enough.

Completely disagree. Shy Guy has way to much moveset potential and is a beloved icon, it'd totally complete the Mario enemy captcha in Smash.

If you start adding Goombas and Koopas, than its ridiculous.

Mario is also pretty well fed already in terms of representation, and there are still more essential characters like Toad and Waluigi missing from its ranks.
I think we can pass on more generic enemies.

 

[Quillion]

And lots of series didn't get newcomers at all. Some of them not for multiple games. Some series still don't have one fighter, and others are still missing essential characters.

Not every Nintendo series should have a character in Smash. We're pretty covered when it comes to the biggest retro and one-shot IPs.