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If you don't like Banjo, that's absolutely fine. But saying "Bubsy is more relevant than Banjo-Kazooie.".....
Did Ice Climbers and Mr. Game & Watch ruin it? They started the retro trend and joined together.
I personally don't understand how retros 'ruin' anything. If anything I've always felt they had priority over newer properties but I guess that's just me, so I don't get the annoyance with retros.
I wouldn't say they had priority. At least not, the retro category which isn't just old characters, it's old characters from series that stopped having games, or in R.O.B.'s case was discontinued (though he had a MKDS appearance), and are typically NES or earlier. In this sense, Mario and DK don't qualify as "retro" as they (and their series) have continued up to the modern day. Pit is an odd case where he was retro when he debuted in Brawl, but was no longer retro by 4.
Right, I understand. That's what I understood when meaning 'retro'. However, I stand by my statement. iconic characters of old, even if they don't have a current series of games going, doesn't mean they shouldn't be disqualified or glossed over so passively. I mean, christ, look at Richter or Simon. Castlevania may have had games over the years but Simon and Richter are classic characters even if they haven't always been the focus of the series. Duck Hunt hasn't had a game...well...since NES, but the character is easily identifiable as Nintendo, which is why I feel Retros are always a decent option. Smash is about the history of gaming...not just CURRENT gaming. And ignoring the games that pretty much made the NES as successful as it was is silly IMO. There should be a good blend of new and old.
It shouldn't disqualify them, no, but we have relatively few of them.
If anything, the only reason why he wasn't in Brawl was that he had yet to be associated with the clown car, which helps him stick out.
Guess I didn't realize. I mean, you definitely shouldn't add more than 2 literal retros per game at least.
That's a really arbitrary way to see it. I'd argue both Spring Man right now and Bowser Jr. during the Brawl era were very much proven characters. Next year we'll be as far from Arms release as we were from Splatoon's when Inkling was included.
A pretty key difference between Arms and Splatoon is that Splatoon got a sequel. Arms' fate is still unknown. Not to mention, Splatoon has enjoyed good popularity, Arms, while I don't think it bombed, was not on the same level.
Rob and Pit in Brawl. Heck, even Wario is a retro by the standards. So...they are fiends for adding so much classic!?
Woah, woah, woah, how on Earth is Wario retro?Rob and Pit in Brawl. Heck, even Wario is a retro by the standards. So...they are fiends for adding so much classic!?
Bad taste is bad taste, as they say.
Bowser Jr. was in only one mainline Mario game when Brawl was in development and didn't really have anything to set him apart from being "small fast Bowser". That's hardly enough longevity to be represented in Smash.
Considering Wario's age (since introduction) and appearance originally on a Game Boy original title? He's pretty 'retro' by definition. Sure he had some spin offs but really only resided in spin-offs until getting his 'own' games again in Wario Ware.
Zant did about as much as a villain around that time and had one game to his name as well, and no one wanted him.
Literally no one calls a character "retro" if their series has been continued past their generation.
Literally someone does because I do. Literally. I do not consider Pac-man a modern character despite having games in this era. Because he isn't a product of 2019. He's originally a product of the 80's. So his new GAMES aren't retro but the character himself? Yes.
But people did already want Junior, which should give you a hint that characters don't need to wait a full console generation for people to realize their staying power.
I don't really see why characters need to "prove" themselves simply by having time pass (that doesn't prove anything) and I don't think Sakurai abides by that either considering the Rex situation. Where we got a costume for him as a literal apology for not being able to include him in the base game.
Yeah, both Spring Man and Rex became two of the most popular character wants less than a year after their debuts, and they're still holding strong even after their perceived disconfirmations. Why wait until the next console to include them when they've already proved themselves?
Then you aren't defining them the same way most people here probably are. Old does not equal retro when it comes to Smash. By your logic, most of the roster is "retro." The thing is, the retro reps are usually specifically representing something old, not an ongoing franchise.
The fact that "apology" came when discussing DLC (which they apparently hadn't done much of even Joker by that point) miffs me. Given how they seem to be doing it, they easily could have added Rex in later.
That'd be because people defining 'Retro' here are doing so arbitrarily. They're just making up a definition for this one situation, which is silly. And yeah, one could argue by my definition that the majority of the cast is 'retro' and I fail to see how it's incorrect. I simply think claiming a character as 'not retro' simply because a game was made recently is flawed logic. But whatever floats this communities boat, I suppose. Spose Retro can be added to the list of meaningless terms that people use to justify or disqualify additions to the roster along with 'Deserve', 'Relevant', etc.
Not true. He was the main antagonist of the very first NSMB which came out in 2006 and secondary antagonist in Mario Galaxy in 2007. NSMB was in development back in 2004, and so was Galaxy. Brawl started development near the end of 2005 despite being announced 4 months prior.
Retro is used to describe a particular set of fighters, and most people when they refer to retro fighters, are using this or a similar definition. It's not a disqualifier as retro fighters are often added, but you need to realize the "lingo" even if you don't like it. Surely you can see the disconnect between fighters that are old and ones that are "retro." Do you mean to tell me there is nothing a bit different about the likes of the Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt? They are generally exceptions, not the rule.
I understand wanting characters to prove they have staying power to be included, but Joker is no concern in that regard. Persona 5 sold amazingly worldwide, is very acclaimed and very quickly became a classic in the RPG genre. Plus Joker became incredibly iconic - Atlus played their cards just right and really struck the iron while it was hot, giving him tons of exposure. I'd argue that Joker is the most iconic JRPG protagonist since Cloud, and that's no small feat. That won't die out whenever Persona 6 onwards come out. If anything, they'll have to live up to the standard set by P5 and Joker.
Also adding onto this, Bayonetta was far from iconic when she got in, especially compared to Sonic, Mega Man, Ryu, Snake and Pac-Man. She's not low-quality but she definitely wasn't a phenomenon.
I have issues saying anyone is iconic so soon. Especially given how rapidly things change these days. Joker has not proven himself. If he sticks around after his series moves on to the point Cloud has, then we can talk. Right now, you are speaking like it is a certainty when you can't possibly know for sure. Iconic is perhaps thrown around too loosely.
Bayo's a weird case. Yeah, she wasn't an icon when she got in, and the notion that she won the ballot is very suspect, but she's basically a honorary Nintendo character, so I can accept her getting in on that basis.
I do feel very certain about it, the writing's on the wall of you ask me.
Annually might be pushing it, but this extreme slow rate of releasing games isn't doing anything great either. I mean, DKC sells extremely well despite how less frequent we get a new game compared to the other big Nintendo titles. I wouldn't mind at all if they release new Donkey Kong games at the same rate as Zelda games honestly.
You ever heard of a little thing called "spoiler tags"? Because holy hell these are huge cluttering images.
Regarding Bayo and her genre, it's a weird case. Dante is the face and pioneer of hack n slash games but up til recently Kratos was a huge part of the genre. The original God of War games were hugely inspired by Devil May Cry and reached heights that Bayonetta simply did not, but I'm not saying her games aren't good or inferior. Kratos was a brand unto himself and one of the faces of Sony; there were times when Kratos was the first thing that came to mind with Hack n Slashers and started eclipsing DMC, but with GoW4 there's been a genre shift. Thanks to the success and changes of that game and the overall history of those 3 franchises, I'd rank Devil May Cry as 1st Place, God of War as 2nd, and Bayonetta as 3rd. DMC got challenged by GoW and nearly usurped, but now that GoW has departed that leaves Bayo to take up the spot. Overall it's DMC, GoW, Bayo but the current rank is DMC, Bayo. GoW is in a different field.
Part of the problem is probably also Retro as they are currently tied up with Prime 4. Given how well they managed to bring DKC back, I'm not sure if another team handling it would be as good. Returns is probably one the best modern series revivals, but not everyone could pull that off.
A next developer probably wouldn't be able to handle a DKC platformer like that, no you're right. And indeed the timing isn't great either with Retro doing Metroid, and having to start from scratch even. But we don't have to get platformer games only. I'd love to have a few spin off titles, and maybe even a remake of say, the original Donkey Kong Country (which is also of course a platformer) or a total new 3D game with overworld exploration and beat em up elements? Maybe a small spin off from DKC Returns platforming, staring only Diddy and Dixie with traditional Rare styled tag teaming? Something on the eShop like specific Kong only levels, or Rambi or mine cart levels alone?
