The DK Match Up Thread.

[Darknid]

You can't shieldgrab if he dash attacks right after the banana throw unless maybe if you powershield it. And the Diddy always hit me with his dash attack if I tried to grab him... and if you wait till it ends he might be behind you or hit you out of your shield (or he just grabs you). Retreating is impossible if you catch the banana unless you jump away and catch it in the air.

Just wait for the DA to end and grab him. It takes experience but you will get the hang of shieldgrabbing that attack. You only shieldgrab immediately if he's right next to you after the glide toss, otherwise you wait for the follow up. Retreating isn't possible if you tapped A to grab his naner out of mid-air but you can also just throw it down right after that.

As long as you have your second jump or are near the edge, yes... but if there are bananas on the ground and a Diddy chasing you it isn't that good =/ unless there are platforms to land.

Idk why you're having trouble with Diddy's juggling, since it sucks.

It's not that easy. Diddy can play it really safe and glide toss with backwards sliding. What happens next? You avoided the 1st banana and he takes the second one and brings himself in a better position and everything repeats...

What happens next? Well, he loses a banana and now only has one, and thus he cannot do that again. You want him to do that.

You just said "Wario is faster than Luigi".

he is.

If you full jump he can. If you sh you risk getting hit by bananas...

If he has a banana in his hand you probably won't be bairing anyway, so that doesn't really matter.

You don't control it if you catch a banana, because DKs banana game sucks. Diddy can easily take every banana back to his control. Bair won't stop every peanut unless you're so near that Diddy has to stop or he gets hit. Diddy won't die at 50 % if he plays careful. He just has to avoid fsmash and the punch which is easy if you play it safe and have it in your mind.

lol dude, players have banana games, not characters. You're just not that good with them. Besides, you can just throw it up or down. Why would you be far away? Avoiding fsmash and punch is easy if your opponent sucks..otherwise, no.

 

[Luigi player]

Just wait for the DA to end and grab him. It takes experience but you will get the hang of shieldgrabbing that attack. You only shieldgrab immediately if he's right next to you after the glide toss, otherwise you wait for the follow up. Retreating isn't possible if you tapped A to grab his naner out of mid-air but you can also just throw it down right after that.

Why shouldn't retreating work if you jump? You can always move around even if you grab an item.

What happens next? Well, he loses a banana and now only has one, and thus he cannot do that again. You want him to do that.

Yeah but one banana still gives Diddy so many options.

he is.

Lol, here we go again...

If he has a banana in his hand you probably won't be bairing anyway, so that doesn't really matter.

Why wouldn't you bair? Diddy can jump and throw it at you. Bair protects you. But it doesn't really matter anyway if you bair or not while moving away...

lol dude, players have banana games, not characters. You're just not that good with them. Besides, you can just throw it up or down. Why would you be far away? Avoiding fsmash and punch is easy if your opponent sucks..otherwise, no.

I main Diddy and my banana game is really good with most characters. Just not with DK, because he can't do anything with them. His glide toss is useless and his item toss is REALLY slow. It is easily shieldgrabben and most attacks hit you before you even throw the banana. It also makes banana follow ups impossible. If you just throw the banana away it won't help much, because Diddy can easily get it back.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

both of you shut up, you're theory crafting about stuff that doesn't matter and it's making this thread suck

now that we have the grumpiness out of the way

DK can gimp, ko early, rack up damage (diddy lacks a combo breaker), and live a very long time, but has problems landing while diddy has bananas out

Diddy can combo heavily and control the stage with bananas, but has problems getting kos and priority problems for every move that isn't "banana"

however, bananas are a royal pain in the *** (as are most *****-shaped objects), so I think diddy has a slight edge

55-45, it is very winnable, but you usually need a gimp to do it, which you can't rely on

Recommended counterpicks are: Brinstar, Japes, Lylat and RC

Ban FD no matter what

Now can we PLEASE move on to snake

oh, also, the wario/luigi/olimar matchup numbers are wrong, wario is a disadvantage, luigi's an advantage and oli is neutral, but I'll get to that later

EDIT: Priority matchup coverings: Snake, Falco, DDD (0-100 gg), Marth, Pikachu, ZSS, Gdubs

oh and I guess you guys need to learn how to beat toon link, cause honestly I find it a pretty easy matchup, but he can come later

 

[Darknid]

Tink ain't hard.

Idk how you could have too much trouble with that kid.

 

[daisho]

I agree 100% with bigfoots list. Bigfoot, can you do a writeup for wario so we know why its our disadvantage? I'll do one for kirby today or tomorrow.

 

[Donkey Bong]

Tink ain't hard.

Idk how you could have too much trouble with that kid.

i cant get around his projectile spam to bair/nair combos/dair spike combos. and everyone here knows as well as i do that once DK gets spiked at >50%, its GG for that stock.

 

[Darknid]

i cant get around his projectile spam to bair/nair combos/dair spike combos. and everyone here knows as well as i do that once DK gets spiked at >50%, its GG for that stock.

You shouldn't be getting spiked by TL. Air dodge it and he dies. If he is bomboing you can still air dodge it. His projectile spam is easy to get around, once you get to your range he's really screwed because he can't outrun you, he can't safely chuck projectiles, he can't deal with your range(even zair loses to your bair and ftilt..) and he can't close that small gap very easily.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Wario 40-60

Wario is an odd *******. He is one of the few characters that does not have problems koing you around 110-120 due to his uair and fsmash (the fart is easy to upb brake, but technically worth a mention). he can also chain grab you to 105, eat (literally) your shield, spotdodges, air dodges and rolls, and live past the majority of the cast.

Sounds REALLY bad right? well, sort of. You have the advantage of guaranteeing you punch out of a grab release for a free 30-25% (or death after about 70%), as well as your fsmash (free 20%), Usmash (death after 86%), and dsmash (death around 110 or so). you also have a large range advantage, as the stubby little guy tends to lose when attacks collide.

Now, hitting him seems a lot harder than it actually is at first. he's going to float around and try to bait your attacks so that he can punish, don't fall for it. when he gets into the air, keep your back turned away from him and wait, don't let him get directly above you, if he tries to come down on you, utilt him, if he looks like he's trying to get directly above you, jump straight up (maybe away but NEVER towards him) and wall with bairs. it makes a good wall for him and forces him to give up the air camping. If you run out of stage, run under him when he's at the height of his second jump.

on the ground he's going to want a grab, this makes it easier to grab him, however you have to be extremely careful or you'll wind up taking 105%, other than grab on the ground he doesn't have much (fsmash is more of a punish), and will likely SH aerials and the bite, utilt or high angled ftilt work best when he does this, preferably utilt.

The object of the game is to wall him off and not let him get in, but that can be very hard when you face a good wario. fortunately there are like two good warios, the rest of them you should be able to wall easily.

40-60 against good warios (both), 60-40 against the bad ones (note, they'll try to grab like no other if they can do the cg. serious falco syndrome with these people)

 

[Donkey Bong]

so which of DK's aerials, if any, beat out dair? and i'm pretty sure the only thing that wins against bite is downb right?

i think something important about this matchup is not being as agressive as normal, i think all we DK players like rushing in to the fray and beating the bejezus out of opponents because of DK's awesome power, but like bigfoot said, its more about making him come to you or you'll get punished.

 

[Darknid]

so which of DK's aerials, if any, beat out dair? and i'm pretty sure the only thing that wins against bite is downb right?

i think something important about this matchup is not being as agressive as normal, i think all we DK players like rushing in to the fray and beating the bejezus out of opponents because of DK's awesome power, but like bigfoot said, its more about making him come to you or you'll get punished.

huh? uair beats dair, but you shouldn't challenge it, you should be staying to the side of him with your back turned walling bairs. Also, pivot grab beats bite and also gets you a free smash/punch.

 

[daisho]

Kirby

Kirby can be extremely annoying but once you know how to fight him it should be an easy matchup.

Kirby has grab combos on you. If you get grabbed at 0 percent there is a good chance you will take about 40%. At higher percents Kirby does not have any real followups but his throws are damaging so you always have to watch out. At low percents kirbys will sometimes try to chaingrab you with d throw. Once you can, you should jump away to escape. Other ways he will combo you are F throw U air Regrab D throw Up tilt. That one is annoying and is usually their best option. I think you can get away from the up tilt at then end. If they do D throw to up tilt as the first throw you can escape.

Getting you to 50 percent is really not the hard part for kirby. His small grab range does complicate things but he can get a grab. And he will be trying extremely hard to do so. You should watch for this and punish. Down B and walk away f smash as well as RMH...S should all work well. Just keep him at bay with your tilts so he is not in position to get a grab.

Kirbys ground game is nothing to be afraid of. The only moves that are slightly annoying are F smash and u tilt. U tilt will combo you at low percents and F smash will kill you early if you DI poorly. Noob kirbys will spam f smash. Good ones will save it for certain situations such as when you are landing or when you are near the edge so you will get pushed off after shielding it.

Kirbys aerial game is annoying but still nothing we can't handle. His main move in the air is his Bair. Our bair trades his with it. We beat out everything else with bair. His nair autocancels and his up air is good at comboing. Most kirbys will protect their landing with Dairs. If you shield it (it has a landing hit, watch out) then you can shield grab him. Dair will destroy your recovery every time. It is worth recovering high with lag to avoid the Dair. More importantly make sure if you get hit by his f smash you DI properly so you are not in a position where he can spike you. Other than that his Air hammer can send you at a bad angle if the second hit hits you.

Watch out for kirbycides when they apply... when they are at high percents and you are at low ones. Also he can take your punch which is annoying but yours has more range.

F tilt D tilt Bair and U tilt are all very important in this matchup. Down B at low percents to avoid grabs. Punch will also destroy kirby. Make sure you are always spacing well and kirby will never be able to get in. Also. Unless gimped you will not die for a while and he will die early.

I know i missed some stuff.., if anything doesn't make sense i will reword it.

 

[Darknid]

Kirby has 0 grab combos on DK. Learn DI.

 

[Ragnar0k]

I'm pretty sure fthrow uair at 0 is guaranteed but we can sdi the uair to break the combo, maybe even headbutt an unsuspecting kirby trying to regrab too.

 

[daisho]

I don't think its guaranteed actually but it works well enough.

 

[Darknid]

It doesn't combo into another grab though.

I think the uair actually is guaranteed, but nothing is after that. My bad.

You won't take 40% though. You deal just as much damage to him with dthrow > ftilt(or downB, even more)

 

[daisho]

It doesn't combo into another grab though.

I think the uair actually is guaranteed, but nothing is after that. My bad.

You won't take 40% though. You deal just as much damage to him with dthrow > ftilt(or downB, even more)

You might... you have time to react before the second grab but you have to roll or spotdodge which he can punish. You have to land and you dont have much time. If you know its coming you can probably get out of the way.

And of course he could keep chasing you and have a pretty big combo.

 

[Darknid]

You might... you have time to react before the second grab but you have to roll or spotdodge which he can punish. You have to land and you dont have much time. If you know its coming you can probably get out of the way.

And of course he could keep chasing you and have a pretty big combo.

No, DI away and jump, combo over.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

he can read your DI and combo after dthrow at low% too, but it really doesn't matter, let them try to get the grab, you usually do more to them then the grab combo does

so which of DK's aerials, if any, beat out dair? and i'm pretty sure the only thing that wins against bite is downb right?

i think something important about this matchup is not being as agressive as normal, i think all we DK players like rushing in to the fray and beating the bejezus out of opponents because of DK's awesome power, but like bigfoot said, its more about making him come to you or you'll get punished.

technically fair and dair, but that's impractical. if he's not above you, bair wins, just don't let him get above you

also, utilt can beat the bite if they're dropping it, but not on the ground

 

[Big O]

I don't think he can bite you from any angle during your up b. Even if he comes on top of you you still beat it with grounded up b.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

anyway, we got kirby and wario out of the way

on to snake, and I'll let other people talk (cough jmex cough) cause I'm personally terrible at this matchup

 

[Stannum]

if its a bad snake spamming boost Usmash down B beats it every time. dtoss>both jumps>dair will catch him sometimes which is always nice. always spike him if you can. roll over his dsmash mines to detonate them safely if you dont think you can hit him into it. if you both get hit by the same grenade explosion 100 times out of 101 the snake will try to uair you. jump out of the way and hit him in his lag. if you can, SDI his full hop nair so you end up behind him for a free grab. watch out if he dthrows you at high percent because hes likely to utilt right after for the kill, so be quick (and unpredictable). in fact, watch you spacing especially carefully when at high percents because his utlit has the range of thunder mixed with falco's lazers... its easy to get caught in if you arent careful.

this is all the obvious stuff i can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Darknid]

Just a few points about this matchup.

1. Don't use your tilts at low %s. A good Snake can just F tilt you right after you hit him even on a spaced F tilt. Wait until about 30-40%, then your tilts will come in handy.

2. F-tilt outranges him, you can use it as a quick spacer. Your main ground move will be downB here. There is nothing he can do to directly punish a spaced downB safely. Remember to only hit one at a time, don't keep pounding.

3. Gimping Snake won't be easy. They can just jump and up B high so that you can't spike them. However, cargo D throw off the stage will get you a free bair and that can kill since it's right at the edge of the screen. Cargo D throw then meet him up high with a bair.

4. THE REJECTION COMBO(any other name ideas? toss em in). Try this. Grab, Cargo to the edge and Cargo D throw, then immediately jump up high and hit him with a fully charged giant punch. This will kill at ridiculously low %s(right next to the blast zone) and it almost always works the first time because snakes will always recover as fast as they can and as high as they can to avoid your spikes. TRY TO DO THIS MOVE because when you do, the Snake must adjust his recovery tactics, which means you can get a spike when he tries to trick you. Use this to scare him into a gimp and also to kill.

5. Your main killer will be giant punch. You can also used a fully charged giant punch to eat through grenades(for some reason DK has superarmor against grenades throughout the entire move). If Snake pulls a nade, you can hit him with the punch and he will take damage from the punch and the nade.

6. AVOID THAT UTILT. Very hard to avoid, but DK can do it with proper spacing. CHANCES ARE you will mess up and die, so don't feel bad. I find a good way to avoid the utilt is actually to get in close and shieldgrab him, anything to keep him in the air. If you do get hit, the correct DI is towards him and down a little.

 

[ook]

Some snakes like to fair after you cargo dtoss them (don't try to spike those ones), or sometimes just jump back to the stage and airdodge.

so charge a smash if they do that



Aerial side-b is pretty useful in this matchup too (snake likes to grab/do stuff OoS), as long as you're not at utilt %.





down-b/grab a lot

 

[NatP]

Ok, I fought some snakes on my tourney, 2 to be exact, and all they did vs me was camp. So if a snake tries to camp, here's what you should do (or atleast what I did). When they're dropping their nades and throwing them. holding on to them and then throwing, rolling and leaving them behind, etc etc; try to approach them cautiously and try to wait for an opening. You gotta wait for them to mess up just one bit so you can punish with a grab. I myself just threw every nade he dropped and shielded every other he tossed. It worked for me.

 

[Jmex]

anyway, we got kirby and wario out of the way

on to snake, and I'll let other people talk (cough jmex cough) cause I'm personally terrible at this matchup

Looks like everyone already did a nice job.

 

[Cyphus]

i went to oklahoma's Oh Snap tournament. i probably had the worst bracket i've ever had in my 8+ years of competitive smash. regardless...i did my part in crew battles:
i took out UltimateRazor's 3 stocks, losing 1 (he SD'd once). After the tournament we played a buncha friendlies and it was relatively even (i could be wrong, i think i won 3 outta 5, but w/e it was friendlies) Some things he could improve on in the matchup to maybe put it back slightly in his favor, but overall, DK = Snake. DownB really is DK's saving grace move vs Snake, until they learn how to punish it on block ( albiet difficult- still nobody does).

 

[Donkey Bong]

cyphus are you talking about this years oh snap, when was it?

pertaining to the thread: dont get grabbed.

aw spit son, wrong matchup

 

[Ragnar0k]

Here are some walls of text I made before about some matchups. I haven't reread through them so it might not be up to date but they're only a few months old.

Snake:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7478019&postcount=98

Diddy:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7477506&postcount=1440

And Olimar just because I'm already digging through my old posts.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7477682&postcount=315

Hope those help. Let me know if there's anything in them that isn't right anymore.

 

[NatP]

One question on the wario matchup. The grab release you are mentioning is the regular grab release correct? And if yes, is the cargo grab release different for wario?

Also, what's the DK TL matchup?

 

[ook]

Yeah, you can't cargo release Wario into anything. Wario only gets screwed by his air release

 

[crifer]

diddy: I played against luigi player and the only chance you have is getting a early gimp, upB is a good idea...

wario: sucks. last week I fought the first time a good wario. It´s really hard against a good wario, air camping can only be rivaled by retreating bair walls. Actually I feel stupid about this, but how do I grab realease them and punch them? simply stay on the same place where I stand and fire the punch out, or walk or jump towards him? hyphen usmash?

 

[Ripple]

if you have a punch and they are above 50% and you grab them just continue to mash B. B doesn't do anything when you have someone in a grab so as soon as they pop out it buffers a punch. if you don't have a punch then hyphen up smash always

 

[itsthebigfoot]

One question on the wario matchup. The grab release you are mentioning is the regular grab release correct? And if yes, is the cargo grab release different for wario?

Also, what's the DK TL matchup?

its the air release from a normal grab, the cargo forces a ground release and we can't do anything out of that

I do well against toon link, some dks have problems though. just walk + shield + ftilt through the camp and remember that he can't land ko moves so long as you have a punch just out of fear

 

[NatP]

I'm sorry for being a noob, but why should a TL be scared of smashing when we have a full punch? I really don't know much about the TL matchup, other than the fact that he's really campy. @.@

 

[tocador]

Punch = super armor, and it out-ranges his smashes.

So he is always afraid of throwing them and getting punched. I really have a easy time with TL's, what BF said, shield + walk + ftilt is a guarantee camp-breaker.

WoB can work well too as you cancel his projectiles.

Agaisnt TL i think its fairly easy, because he cant kill you for ****, and you can get like, 80% kills with punches or uairs.

 

[Darknid]

one thing about TL that people don't realize is unlike practically every character in the game, his anti-air is atrocious. If you bait a shieldgrab it's a free F smash and that's his only good option against your spaced bairs.

 

[Darknid]

What happened here?

 

[Ripple]

idk I think we just skipped over snake to TL. I don't remember.

 

[daisho]

Move snake and toon link to the writeups needed and lets move on.

I say we start on falco

 

[Jmex]

^ This!!!!