The Death of Competitive Gaming -- The Average Gamer?

[SwastikaPyle]

starcraft itself was designed to appeal to the average gamer. Most competitive markets happen by accident, don't they? Melee sure as hell did.

Also I'm loling at the pathetic justifications for saying L-cancelling is needed. If anything, L-cancelling is responsible for melee not reaching it's potential popularity. Everyone hates practicing it. It takes ton of practice and timing and muscle memory. People don't want to play the game after they find out how many extra buttons they have to press all the time (not to mention how many of them have multiple functions). Yeah it might make you feel better to be part of some 'pro' clique that is above the norm but they are 100% unnecessary. Fastfalling and shorthopping, yes, l-cancelling has no downside though. There's no 'upside or downside' about choosing to l-cancel, everyone would do it every single time if they could. It's just an extra button that you have to press to make every move a little faster, instead of a built-in function to the game.

 

[EPsilon933]

L-canceling arguements

I'm surprised everyone's so hardcore about this discussion.

 

[CRASHiC]

doesn't anything that increases APM naturally create a higher skill cap/more depth

You are mistaking technial for depth. Its not. Shaq-fu has an incredbily high skill level, requiring 100 percent percision on all its inputs. Yet, the game has no depth. Depth lies in your options, not the buttons you press. The more options you are provided, the more valid choices, the more depth the game has.

 

[Fletch]

starcraft itself was designed to appeal to the average gamer. Most competitive markets happen by accident, don't they? Melee sure as hell did.

Also I'm loling at the pathetic justifications for saying L-cancelling is needed. If anything, L-cancelling is responsible for melee not reaching it's potential popularity. Everyone hates practicing it. It takes ton of practice and timing and muscle memory. People don't want to play the game after they find out how many extra buttons they have to press all the time (not to mention how many of them have multiple functions). Yeah it might make you feel better to be part of some 'pro' clique that is above the norm but they are 100% unnecessary. Fastfalling and shorthopping, yes, l-cancelling has no downside though. There's no 'upside or downside' about choosing to l-cancel, everyone would do it every single time if they could. It's just an extra button that you have to press to make every move a little faster, instead of a built-in function to the game.

Even though it's always advantageous to do so doesn't mean it's always possible. And especially because it's harder to do in some situations, it becomes a mindgame / setup in itself. Like if I see a Fox player sh nair me, I'll dash out -> sh out of the way and they'll about 75% miss the L cancel because they timed an L cancel assuming they'd hit me. They missed the L cancel because they misread the spacing, not because their fingers are too slow. And so I'll then punish with a dair shine -> combo. That knowledge alone has actually won me many games and I can refer to many videos on that LOL.

Point is, if there were no L cancels and everything canceled automatically, there's nothing stopping players from being all out aggressive, all the time. It makes sure that players actually have some commitment to their attack and they better know what they / their opponent is doing, otherwise they'll get punished.

Also, I still don't hit every l-cancel, but love that the game has it, so don't say not everyone loves it.

You are mistaking technial for depth. Its not. Shaq-fu has an incredbily high skill level, requiring 100 percent percision on all its inputs. Yet, the game has no depth. Depth lies in your options, not the buttons you press. The more options you are provided, the more valid choices, the more depth the game has.

I actually own this game (unfortunately), and I can kind of attest to that. Time to start a competitive Shaq-Fu community I guess.

 

[AlcyoNite]

my arguments about game design+ pinkreaperr's arguments about hurdles to noobs + Zhu's and Lovage's arguments in defense of the depth provided by l-cancelling = /Thread

 

[CRASHiC]

Nah, you're still wrong.

I'm a trust David Sirlin over some teenage wheeaboo anyday.

 

[AlcyoNite]

Nah, you're still wrong.

I'm a trust David Sirlin over some teenage wheeaboo anyday.

i mean

if u had read what i said

i enlisted sirlin as an ally


...

and im definitely in college bro,

*points at ur avatar*

 

[CRASHiC]

Then you are misusing Sirlin, because Sirlin wants every game to be easy as pie.

 

[Kanelol]

To sum up the last 15 pages:

Let's make the game easier without removing depth

 

[CRASHiC]

Kanel, depth has nothing to do with how technically difficult something is, that's merely a byproduct of increasing depth. Guilty Gear XX: Accent Core is easily amongst the most difficult games of all time, but they didn't set out to achieve this. They were simply trying to increase depth by giving each player a wide array of options. Technical difficulty is unrelated to depth, though will come as an unintended byproduct of good depth.

 

[ZOM~B]

It doesn't matter if he learns how to storm properly or not. Storm's effectiveness is pitiful now after the AOE nerf and MMM balls are the least of P's troubles now anyways with reaper harrass builds completely shutting down P's attempts at any kind of early game opening. Think about it, P's attempts to counter bio-balls forces them to go an extremely diverse army thats more micro intensive to counter a T that just A-moves all day.

But yea its still in beta so...

psi storm is a little bit weak at the moment but it WILL 1 shot marines twice over effectively making the ball vulnerable to just 1 void ray (though to be honest upgraded colossi is much more effective, ground army + void ray is really the way to go, all the T's are complaining about void ray. I just do early stalk, 3 gate, void ray, if the game goes on longer I'll get speedlots) but uhh, early stalk completely shuts down reaper harass.

I would also like to point out the strength of the terran push in SC1. Breaking a terran push was hella hard, and took a lot more work from the P player than the T player. (talking mech build here) Definitely doable, but not easy.

Besides everyone knows 6pool is the best strat anyway

 

[Masmasher@]

L cancel ing is sort of dumb if your going to do it every time anyway also it adds pointless inconsistency. for example in tekken 6 jins EWGF is +5 on block. in situations when you use it you expect the same result everytime when you use it why should you press a button after the imput to get the same desired effect.

on the other hand i can see a argument for l cancelling being needed if you think about it in the terms of the person thats being ATTACKED not the attacker. Think about it...if you are trying to cancel a attack then sometimes the person might want to counter up your attack/ l cancel by putting a angle to their shield to mess up your timing and put you at a disadvantage. so in order to counter that you have to switch up the timing for you l cancel.


Also i usually dont cosign posts but...

mmm what do you know about shield pressuring / comboing? Basically, messing up shield pressure means you get punished, hard, especially because it's Melee, and especially because it's Falco. You make it sound like shield pressure is unbeatable but if it really was, why don't you see technical spacies lock down their opponent every match with just dair, l cancel, shine? There are falling speed / aerial timing / landing mixups, hitstun / punish differences, etc etc that really make a noticeable difference and that he takes into account and knows better than everyone else. Please don't over simplify Mango's pressure when you clearly don't know anything about it, and when I've spent so much time / thought trying to beat / mimic it and still fail at both >_>

**** get ****ing *****
the resolve in this
****!

 

[KAOSTAR]

Who turns off items in Mario Kart? That sounds like one of the least fun things ever.

My major complaint for MKWii is the ******** item scaling. Blue shells would be bearable if you could actually get a star or mushroom while in first place.

Item scaling is there for a reason. The items are designed to give you what you need in that position.

While in first place you need to slow down the opponents behind you. Single shells and bananas and ?boxes are perfect for that.

Altho that can be looked at as questionable in comp play. So simply turn the items off and let the best driver win. aka ME.

Who turns off items in Smash Bros? That sounds like one of the least fun things ever.

Seriously though, some people play Smash "purely for fun" and view tournament play in Smash Bros. as "non-fun". If I were to play Mario Kart competitively, I'd appreciate being able to play without stupid overpowered items.
In MKWii you can actually set items to "basic", which means only the most basic items like bananas, red and green shells etc. can be obtained, which sounds ideal for competitive MK.

I have fun playing competitvely. I was under the impression that basic turned the items box number down. Maybe thats a standard setting.

Either way, MKwii isnt as good. The driving isnt as technical. DD is wayyyy better.

Nintendo is intentionally dumbing down every game they get their hands on.

 

[Masmasher@]

Item scaling is there for a reason. The items are designed to give you what you need in that position.

While in first place you need to slow down the opponents behind you. Single shells and bananas and ?boxes are perfect for that.

Altho that can be looked at as questionable in comp play. So simply turn the items off and let the best driver win. aka ME.

I have fun playing competitvely. I was under the impression that basic turned the items box number down. Maybe thats a standard setting.

Either way, MKwii isnt as good. The driving isnt as technical. DD is wayyyy better.

Nintendo is intentionally dumbing down every game they get their hands on.

Yeah but in MKWII its terrible.
whos gonna run into a banana lol plus fake items have lost their use ofbeing able to block attacks and the alternate color makes it so that only a complete idiot would run into one of them
first place should give you mushrooms to help counteract the amount of blue shells that are going to be after you(its possible to avoid them). hell in MKWII you basically want to be in second place and turtle your opponents till the home stretch you dont want to be in first lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I could argue that lcanceling adds depth because if you lcancel but are hit instead, you will miss your tech. Thus you must be predictive and precise with your controls. With auto lcanceling nobody would ever have an excuse to miss a tech or have a method to force the opponent to miss one.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I could argue that lcanceling adds depth because if you lcancel but are hit instead, you will miss your tech. Thus you must be predictive and precise with your controls. With auto lcanceling nobody would ever have an excuse to miss a tech or have a method to force the opponent to miss one.

Several ppl already did lol.

You still dont have an excuse to miss a tech other than being ill disciplined. If you have control of your fingers you can press L/R lightly and you never activate your tech cycle. Or you can use Z and never have that problem.

I still miss techs tho, I hit L/R hella hard.

Yeah but in MKWII its terrible.
whos gonna run into a banana lol plus fake items have lost their use ofbeing able to block attacks and the alternate color makes it so that only a complete idiot would run into one of them
first place should give you mushrooms to help counteract the amount of blue shells that are going to be after you(its possible to avoid them). hell in MKWII you basically want to be in second place and turtle your opponents till the home stretch you dont want to be in first lol.

Oh lol. I didnt kno they made it worse. So thats pretty much the intentional difficulty scaling back. Im starting to hate Nintendo. I hope the next system ***** >_< or Im thru wit them

Also the wii wheel ****ing sucks.

 

[Masmasher@]

Several ppl already did lol.

You still dont have an excuse to miss a tech other than being ill disciplined. If you have control of your fingers you can press L/R lightly and you never activate your tech cycle. Or you can use Z and never have that problem.

I agree with the being ill disciplined part but on the other hand i can see a argument for l cancelling being needed if you think about it in the terms of the person thats being ATTACKED not the attacker. Think about it...if you are trying to cancel a attack then sometimes the person might want to counter up your attack/ l cancel by putting a angle to their shield to mess up your timing and put you at a disadvantage. so in order to counter that you have to switch up the timing for you l cancel.

I still cant l cancel consistenly lmao

 

[Dart]

if you don't play starcraft then don't try to make assumptions about things you don't understand. I swear there are so many misconceptions in this thread flying around about micro/macro/straregy/etc mechanics when i doubt many of you understand how any of these concepts relate to each other in starcraft.

Don't try to compare sc to melee and make the most ridiculous assumptions such as comparing micro and macro mechanics to anything in melee. Your not even comparing apples and oranges at this point.

u madddddddd?

 

[Eggm]

I think you're making the mistake of associating "easier" with "clunkier", controls can be made to be easy enough to do what you want, while giving the option to give tighter controls when necessary.

That's part of what good controls are.

I'm not confusing them at all. Brawl simply has much clunkier controls than melee does. For example : That whole buffer window that makes your character turn around when you land if you tried to DI a certain way during your jump. That's just clunky and unnecessary only intended to make it easier to move as fast as possible. Also not being able to jump off the ledge soon as you grab like in the 1st 2 games. That gives off a feeling of clunkiness and non responsiveness IMO, again only intended to make the game easier. When I'm playing a game I don't want to watch my character be stuck there for a set amount of time just cause I grabbed the ledge. Feels unnatural. I only played the game for about 10 hours total like over a year ago now so I can't remember much else, but those particular things felt very clunky and annoying and just non intuitive when I was trying to enjoy the game. One cool thing I noticed is dashing at full speed from a stop or after you did something was much easier which is a welcome change. In melee you have to really slam the stick especially once it gets a little old, but in brawl dashing seemed much more sensitive on the stick that's a good thing, but that's unfortunately like the only improvement in the games controls.

Also, on a side note why does everyone think it'd be better if all technical stuff were easier? That takes away the whole point of being competitive in the game in the first place. Why would I want to put my time into something that's super easy to be proficient at? At that point its ALL mental that's boring. All strategy's have equal risk cause none are harder than others to pull off technically. Keeping your cool during high stakes matches is much easier and that whole portion of player skill is diminished if not gone. Why not just play chess? If ALL you want is a mental battle then why even play a video game?

If brawl ended up with every single of the same options as in melee, but everything was super easy to the point of almost automatic it wouldn't be nearly as fun to watch people pull off good strategies or combos. In fact they wouldn't even be pulling them off. I dunno.

 

[AlcyoNite]

Why not just play chess? If ALL you want is a mental battle then why even play a video game?

If brawl ended up with every single of the same options as in melee, but everything was super easy to the point of almost automatic it wouldn't be nearly as fun to watch people pull off good strategies or combos. In fact they wouldn't even be pulling them off. I dunno.

QFE

And I would even expand the bolded words to include all sports in general.

Edit: Notice how every experienced player whose commented in this thread has supported this notion

 

[Eggm]

QFE

And I would even expand the bolded words to include all sports in general.

Edit: Notice how every experienced player whose commented in this thread has supported this notion

Yeah take basketball for example. Shooting is just tech skill. Theres no strategy. 100% of the time you want to make the basketball land inside the basket and score points. Strategically theres no reason not to, just like your l-canceling arguments. I guess we should have some type of magnet in the nets/balls that make you always make it if you shoot kinda close. That way its all about the strategy and team aspect of position and passing it down the court. -_-

Point is : its way more exciting the way it is than if you put the magnets in.

Edit : The only reason to do this would be so more people could enjoy being good at it. But like I said in my post before this. Then would what would be the point in getting good at it in the first place?

Edit 2 : Hmm maybe I should invent that type of basketball court/basketball. In general it seems like people just want stuff to be easier this generation of kids. I could make a killing. It could become more popular than regular basketball with non competitive people. I can then put my millions into melee... hmm...

 

[mastermoo420]

I skipped a lot of pages of this topic, but I saw one post that kinda summed out the whole debate: You guys don't have a set definition on "competitive." Or on "depth," either. People are being too vague.

Given that competitive means the number of people who play the game in a serious manner, Brawl is an obviously more competitive game because of the casual players and the MLG exposure. Competitive in this term refers to the fact that you're competing against other people and an overall bigger community.

Given that competitive means the difficulty of playing the game, Melee is an obviously more competitive game. Sure, Brawl's got spacing, timing, and mindgames or whatever, but it's undeniable that Melee has more techskill involved. Spacing, timing, and mindgames are EQUALLY IMPORTANT IN BOTH GAMES. The thing is that because Melee has techskill thrown in, maintaining focus on all the aspects of the game remains a harder challenge. Plus, Melee's undeniably faster; it's going to be harder to play. Competitive in this sense refers to the competition involved between simply the two people playing at a given moment.

As for depth, Melee and Brawl have initially the same amount of depth. You hit people and knock them out into the blast lines.

Looking deeper in, Melee, in my unbiased opinion (even though I Melee, I'm trying to stay unbiased), has more depth. Why? Because there's a whole bunch of things that have been discovered (techskill, namely) and are to be discovered. Given this, however, Brawl would have a greater potential depth in this sense as there are things still to be discovered, and it hasn't been long since it's been out.

As for L-canceling and other tech skill, they aren't, as stated before by some, entry-level obstacles. I have a friend who plays a myriad of characters well simply because he's played the game for a LONG time and has looked as each characters' moveset and gotten used to combo-ing. You don't HAVE to have techskill, but the gap can be greater between those who have it and those who don't.

Also, L-canceling is not a worthless movement. Are you telling me that EVERYBODY can flawlessly L-cancel (especially in the case of moves such as Fox's d-air) every aerial? Only then can you call L-canceling arbitrary.

This is just my two cents.

 

[Massive]

I agree with the being ill disciplined part but on the other hand i can see a argument for l cancelling being needed if you think about it in the terms of the person thats being ATTACKED not the attacker. Think about it...if you are trying to cancel a attack then sometimes the person might want to counter up your attack/ l cancel by putting a angle to their shield to mess up your timing and put you at a disadvantage. so in order to counter that you have to switch up the timing for you l cancel.

I still cant l cancel consistenly lmao

It's not always ill discipline.
You can change your shield position in exciting and terrifying ways to change the timing required to L-cancel.
There are the 16 year olds who still have those insane child reflexes that let them hit it based on the ground contact animation, but luckily they won't be 16 forever.

Additionally, why is this even being argued? It's already established that Brawl has a lower entry level than Melee; at this point people are standing on the shoulders of giants shouting down how wrong they are.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I agree with the being ill disciplined part but on the other hand i can see a argument for l cancelling being needed if you think about it in the terms of the person thats being ATTACKED not the attacker. Think about it...if you are trying to cancel a attack then sometimes the person might want to counter up your attack/ l cancel by putting a angle to their shield to mess up your timing and put you at a disadvantage. so in order to counter that you have to switch up the timing for you l cancel.

I still cant l cancel consistenly lmao

I agree that L canceling in needed. I just was saying that one part about the teching, just throwin out some knowledge.

Yeah take basketball for example. Shooting is just tech skill. Theres no strategy. 100% of the time you want to make the basketball land inside the basket and score points. Strategically theres no reason not to, just like your l-canceling arguments. I guess we should have some type of magnet in the nets/balls that make you always make it if you shoot kinda close. That way its all about the strategy and team aspect of position and passing it down the court. -_-

Point is : its way more exciting the way it is than if you put the magnets in.

Edit : The only reason to do this would be so more people could enjoy being good at it. But like I said in my post before this. Then would what would be the point in getting good at it in the first place?

Edit 2 : Hmm maybe I should invent that type of basketball court/basketball. In general it seems like people just want stuff to be easier this generation of kids. I could make a killing. It could become more popular than regular basketball with non competitive people. I can then put my millions into melee... hmm...

LMAO I literally came up with this same argument last night, but was too tired to post it. Why would you want to miss lol.

So lets just take the shooting out. If you make it to this line you get 2 points lmao.

 

[Masmasher@]

It's not always ill discipline.
You can change your shield position in exciting and terrifying ways to change the timing required to L-cancel.
There are the 16 year olds who still have those insane child reflexes that let them hit it based on the ground contact animation, but luckily they won't be 16 forever.

Additionally, why is this even being argued? It's already established that Brawl has a lower entry level than Melee; at this point people are standing on the shoulders of giants shouting down how wrong they are.

lol we just said the same thing. but someone made a point in saying l canceling useless complexity earlier in the thread. (im looking at it from both sides)

 

[Kanelol]

Eggm best poster '010

 

[ranmaru]

I'm not confusing them at all. Brawl simply has much clunkier controls than melee does. For example : That whole buffer window that makes your character turn around when you land if you tried to DI a certain way during your jump. That's just clunky and unnecessary only intended to make it easier to move as fast as possible. Also not being able to jump off the ledge soon as you grab like in the 1st 2 games. That gives off a feeling of clunkiness and non responsiveness IMO, again only intended to make the game easier. When I'm playing a game I don't want to watch my character be stuck there for a set amount of time just cause I grabbed the ledge. Feels unnatural. I only played the game for about 10 hours total like over a year ago now so I can't remember much else, but those particular things felt very clunky and annoying and just non intuitive when I was trying to enjoy the game. One cool thing I noticed is dashing at full speed from a stop or after you did something was much easier which is a welcome change. In melee you have to really slam the stick especially once it gets a little old, but in brawl dashing seemed much more sensitive on the stick that's a good thing, but that's unfortunately like the only improvement in the games controls.

Also, on a side note why does everyone think it'd be better if all technical stuff were easier? That takes away the whole point of being competitive in the game in the first place. Why would I want to put my time into something that's super easy to be proficient at? At that point its ALL mental that's boring. All strategy's have equal risk cause none are harder than others to pull off technically. Keeping your cool during high stakes matches is much easier and that whole portion of player skill is diminished if not gone. Why not just play chess? If ALL you want is a mental battle then why even play a video game?

If brawl ended up with every single of the same options as in melee, but everything was super easy to the point of almost automatic it wouldn't be nearly as fun to watch people pull off good strategies or combos. In fact they wouldn't even be pulling them off. I dunno.

Wow I forgot about that. I remember playing against a friend, and he was recovering... I was trying to get back on stage, but it was harder to do that than in melee. I edge hog him and he would start to whine. I didn't mean to, lol. But yeah.

But yeah. I have a gamecube, but I'm good at brawl. I practice melee of course. (good enough for competition, nope) but I can SEE the challenges in melee... when I lose I see people at a MUCH higher level than me, which means I have much more to learn.

 

[Fletch]

Yeah take basketball for example. Shooting is just tech skill. Theres no strategy. 100% of the time you want to make the basketball land inside the basket and score points. Strategically theres no reason not to, just like your l-canceling arguments. I guess we should have some type of magnet in the nets/balls that make you always make it if you shoot kinda close. That way its all about the strategy and team aspect of position and passing it down the court. -_-

Point is : its way more exciting the way it is than if you put the magnets in.

Edit : The only reason to do this would be so more people could enjoy being good at it. But like I said in my post before this. Then would what would be the point in getting good at it in the first place?

Edit 2 : Hmm maybe I should invent that type of basketball court/basketball. In general it seems like people just want stuff to be easier this generation of kids. I could make a killing. It could become more popular than regular basketball with non competitive people. I can then put my millions into melee... hmm...

I'm gonna be the Lebron of Magnetball, just try and stop me.

 

[rathy Aro]

Because people that enjoy arbitrary skill tests in and of themselves are a tiny minority of overall game players, yet at the same time, a lot of people enjoy being able to perform arbitrary skill tests as a way to seperate themselves from the "noobies". Of course, the reality is that if a game has depth, win ratio and understanding of complex strategic objectives should be enough.


Regardless, if you're one of the people that enjoys trying to constantly click a button in a 6 frame window, there are certainly games that cater to that, so a fairer critique would be making it that way on purpose is counter to the strategy of increasing market share.

I don't think that's true. Gunz has to large a following and too long a lifespan for for me to believe that. Same with melee which is full of arbitrary skill tests. Why would so many people praise SilentWolf and m2k for their amazing tech skill if they didn't think it was somehow an important skill. Also I don't think people enjoy these skill tests just because it seperates them from noobs, but because they find the action itself fun. One might choose chess or a card game if they wanted a purely strategical game with no skill barriers.

Thinking about it, I guess I don't completely disagree with you. Its hard to say, instead I'll just say what my ideal control scheme would be: each button covers a basic option you have, but you can do more advanced things by using the buttons in combination. Also the faster your fingers are the faster your character will be. (This takes a cue from GunZ, which kinda has arbitrary skill tests, but not really since the advanced techniques often sacrifice accuracy for speed).

Also, I don't think arbitrary skill tests hurt market share. Look at brawl. When ICs grab you cging is ALWAYS the best option (don't give me that multiple types of cgs crap). Do noobs care about this or even know this when they go to buy the game? No.

Also, basketball arguement is pretty legit.

 

[AlcyoNite]

Yeah take basketball for example. Shooting is just tech skill. Theres no strategy. 100% of the time you want to make the basketball land inside the basket and score points. Strategically theres no reason not to, just like your l-canceling arguments. I guess we should have some type of magnet in the nets/balls that make you always make it if you shoot kinda close. That way its all about the strategy and team aspect of position and passing it down the court. -_-

Point is : its way more exciting the way it is than if you put the magnets in.

Edit : The only reason to do this would be so more people could enjoy being good at it. But like I said in my post before this. Then would what would be the point in getting good at it in the first place?

Edit 2 : Hmm maybe I should invent that type of basketball court/basketball. In general it seems like people just want stuff to be easier this generation of kids. I could make a killing. It could become more popular than regular basketball with non competitive people. I can then put my millions into melee... hmm...

Oh my god why didnt you post this 1000 pages ago

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm not confusing them at all. Brawl simply has much clunkier controls than melee does. For example : That whole buffer window that makes your character turn around when you land if you tried to DI a certain way during your jump. That's just clunky and unnecessary only intended to make it easier to move as fast as possible. Also not being able to jump off the ledge soon as you grab like in the 1st 2 games. That gives off a feeling of clunkiness and non responsiveness IMO, again only intended to make the game easier. When I'm playing a game I don't want to watch my character be stuck there for a set amount of time just cause I grabbed the ledge. Feels unnatural. I only played the game for about 10 hours total like over a year ago now so I can't remember much else, but those particular things felt very clunky and annoying and just non intuitive when I was trying to enjoy the game. One cool thing I noticed is dashing at full speed from a stop or after you did something was much easier which is a welcome change. In melee you have to really slam the stick especially once it gets a little old, but in brawl dashing seemed much more sensitive on the stick that's a good thing, but that's unfortunately like the only improvement in the games controls.

I'm not saying that Brawl is good, but if anything, a small buffer window IS nice, and probably the biggest advantage is it can make things that previously weren't humanly possible to do constantly possible.


Honestly though, I'm a fan of variable buffer, that way you don't have to sacrifice ease of use for smooth controls, and it's things like this that are little ways that you can ease transition without making the top level suffer.

Also, on a side note why does everyone think it'd be better if all technical stuff were easier? That takes away the whole point of being competitive in the game in the first place. Why would I want to put my time into something that's super easy to be proficient at? At that point its ALL mental that's boring. All strategy's have equal risk cause none are harder than others to pull off technically. Keeping your cool during high stakes matches is much easier and that whole portion of player skill is diminished if not gone. Why not just play chess? If ALL you want is a mental battle then why even play a video game?

Lol, that's just it, it's NOT super easy to be proficient at, even with all the technical skills themselves being easy, there's just so much depth in the game, being technically proficient is not gonna make you able to space better or understand the finer points of fox's shield pressure game.

Easy access to the depth just means you can make a lot more mistakes to new players, you've still got a massive mountain to climb, it just takes away one aspect which doesn't add much to the game.

Keeping cool? That's more playing into your tactical game, muscle memory still kicks in, it's how you react mentally that changes.


Honestly, the difference between this and chess is different mental attributes tested and obviously the pacing.

If brawl ended up with every single of the same options as in melee, but everything was super easy to the point of almost automatic it wouldn't be nearly as fun to watch people pull off good strategies or combos. In fact they wouldn't even be pulling them off. I dunno.

Understand, there's a difference between "technical ease" and automatic, because the reality is, most "combos" aren't guaranteed and depend on DI reading, I wouldn't give that up because that would removal depth.

So, you're right, it wouldn't, cause that would neuter the game to make it easier on people, and that I don't want.

 

[Kanelol]

Lol, that's just it, it's NOT super easy to be proficient at, even with all the technical skills themselves being easy, there's just so much depth in the game, being technically proficient is not gonna make you able to space better or understand the finer points of fox's shield pressure game.

you don't need to understand the finer points of Fox's shield pressure game if shield pressuring is technically easy

 

[adumbrodeus]

you don't need to understand the finer points of Fox's shield pressure game if shield pressuring is technically easy

Making performing something technically easy is not the same as making people understand how to use it properly.

If they don't understand it, shield DI ->grab, which depending on the character grabbing is a stock loss.

 

[JPOBS]

Yeah take basketball for example. Shooting is just tech skill. Theres no strategy. 100% of the time you want to make the basketball land inside the basket and score points. Strategically theres no reason not to, just like your l-canceling arguments. I guess we should have some type of magnet in the nets/balls that make you always make it if you shoot kinda close. That way its all about the strategy and team aspect of position and passing it down the court. -_-

Point is : its way more exciting the way it is than if you put the magnets in.

Edit : The only reason to do this would be so more people could enjoy being good at it. But like I said in my post before this. Then would what would be the point in getting good at it in the first place?

Edit 2 : Hmm maybe I should invent that type of basketball court/basketball. In general it seems like people just want stuff to be easier this generation of kids. I could make a killing. It could become more popular than regular basketball with non competitive people. I can then put my millions into melee... hmm...

This post ***** the balls off of this thread

 

[Pink Reaper]

itt: eggm uses strawman, ******* consider it to be intelligent posting.

 

[Kanelol]

yeah eggm is the only one using strawman

 

[Masmasher@]

Im just saying...
my post makes a good point lol

 

[KAOSTAR]

adumbbrodeus ur trippin.

The war is over comeback to the north

 

[giuocob]

itt: eggm uses strawman, ******* consider it to be intelligent posting.

Where's the strawman in that argument? There are lots of people in this thread saying that good competitive games shouldn't rely on advanced technical skill like L-Cancelling. The basketball metaphor responds perfectly to that.

Also, I just took a class in presentational speaking; apparently the politically correct term is 'strawperson'.

 

[CRASHiC]

Except it doesn't because its not a fighting game.

Even more, its not something that should be easier at all. L canceling is just landing, nothing more. There is no reason that LANDING ON THE GROUND should be a chore.