The Death of Competitive Gaming -- The Average Gamer?

[AlcyoNite]

The point that is continually being missed is that EVERYONE l-cancels ALL THE TIME. There are times that you should full hop instead of short hop, there are times when you should dash instead of wavedashing, but there is never a time that you shouldn't l-cancel an aerial (barring ICG's example, but I'm not a Pikachu expert lol).

Since l-canceling is non-optional anyway, why not just build it into the engine? Does it actually prove anything to do something that is required? L-canceling only separates non-tournament players from tournament players. No one that's actually putting down money on this game doesn't know how to l-cancel.

boo-hoo, my falcon combos require an extra input

it just so happens that it is better to cancel ur aerials and the learn the timings for them on shields, upon impact, without impact, and for different aerials

its also the case that it is always better to l-cancel than not l-cancel

just like its always better to space your aerials

and to not full jump with fox when ur trying to short hop

FACT: No one L-Cancels all of the time like they think they do. Actually, you would be surprised at how many people miss the timing for fox's full-jumped nair

We've also all seen pros miss the timing for Falcon's dair, especially if they thought they were gonna hit and then whiffed.

Its technically demanding sometimes and sometimes it isnt; not a big deal

Melee is an amazing game and I wouldn't change a bit of it

 

[Kanelol]

but if you can remove technical barriers WITHOUT DECREASING THE DEPTH

You can't.

Unrelated note, Lovage. Eat your cheetos with chop sticks, and you never have to deal with finger dust again.

 

[Jam Stunna]

This is like talking to a brick wall

 

[Kanelol]

This is like talking to a brick wall

We can at least say we kept the conversation on topic instead of letting it degrade into a melee/brawl flame fest

I think, I haven't read this entire thread :<

 

[Jam Stunna]

We can at least say we kept the conversation on topic instead of letting it degrade into a melee/brawl flame fest

I think, I haven't read this entire thread :<

You're right, we should at least feel good about that.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You can't.

Auto-l canceling.

Customized control schemes, giving wavedashing it's own input (but allow it to be performed manually). There are a number of other possibilities, but those immediately came to mind.

We can at least say we kept the conversation on topic instead of letting it degrade into a melee/brawl flame fest

Where's the melee vs brawl here?


Both me and Pink Reaper are primarily melee players.

 

[Kanelol]

Auto-l canceling.

/10

 

[Lovage]

as zoo brought up before, there are lots of things you can do to mess up your opponent's l cancel which gives you a HUGE advantage. making l cancels automatic would remove this layer of depth from the game.

i know this isnt the point of the argument but since everyone is using l canceling as the main example i figured i would bring this up

 

[Kanelol]

doesn't anything that increases APM naturally create a higher skill cap/more depth

 

[Pink Reaper]

Guitar Hero, deepest game ever.

 

[Kanelol]

A) Guitar hero doesn't have that many APM
B) You know what I meant you sly dog you

 

[Pink Reaper]

You're right, i did know what you meant, that's why i was making fun of you.

Through The Fire And Flames: 3722 notes, 7 minutes 20 seconds. Just at the most basic level thats an apm of 507

 

[KAOSTAR]

How can you guys actually believe you dont take away depth when you remove L canceling from melee?

Its cleary a skill, that can be messed up.

L canceling is 2nd nature, but they are missed. Do not believe that everyone hits l cancels 100% of the time, and if they do. Thats ok. Everyone doesnt. Why take away something that that person worked hard to achieve just to put other ppl on his level.

Thats basically what brawl was created for. Take out adv techniques and remove alot of the depth of smash.

If I spend years learning how to SDI and then a patch updated melee and it simply allowed inputs to be done by holding a direction, thats one more thing that just got taken out of the game. and it lowered the depth. Id be pissed. now ppl who just picked up the game can DI almost as well as me, because everybody DIs, lets just make it easier.

L canceling requires you to be in control of what you are doin, you cannot just mash buttons and shield pressure as you could without l canceling.

 

[Kanelol]

I'm tapping out on this one, Pink Reaper got me with the Dragonforce thing. Can anyone direct me to a good competitive GH forum? Guess it's time to dig out the xbox.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Oh trust me, you're not skilled enough to play in Guitar Hero tournaments.

 

[Kanelol]

Do they have a really ****ty GH sequel I could be good at regardless of skill level

 

[Pink Reaper]

Yes, GH5

10thatgame****ingsucks

 

[Kanelol]

I stopped playing after 3, tried 4 at a few parties.. It just didn't have the same plastic-y shredding thing going, yknow

 

[Pink Reaper]

I like 4 if only cus i like some of the songs in it and the user content is pretty ****(Mario Bros/FF/Zelda/Megaman, people have made it all)

5 is legitimately terrible. They didnt add ANY difficult songs with the exception of Scatterbrain(not even that hard) and they made the window for what actually counts friggin huge. It's legitimately possible to just spam all the buttons during a solo and still expect to hit a large % of the notes

 

[KAOSTAR]

I also stopped at 3. 4 would prob be as far as Id go.

I have yet to play 5.

Gh 2 was pretty good lol, if they had kept the same mechanics and added **** to it, without making it easier, and then compensating my adding more notes. It would be more than just a party game.

 

[Kanelol]

that's what i did anyway, i might have to go get 5

 

[Pink Reaper]

Btw KAOSTAR you're arguing the wrong thing. Even if no one L-cancels 100% of the time, they still try. Its still a "Do it or else" tech. That's not depth, that's needless complexity. Yes, forcing a missed L-cancel adds depth, but that doesnt really proves the point, the tech is so mandatory that you have to make strategies to make people NOT do it.

And taking out L-canceling =\= taking out Wavedashing and other advanced techs. Doing that was ****ing ******** since things like Dash Dancing and Wavedashing opened up a HUGE amount of options. L-canceling opened no options that wouldnt have been there with auto L-canceling anyways. That's the real issue here, superfluous tech skill vs useful tech skill. L-Canceling really is a superfluous technique. There is no Risk/Reward to it because the "Risk" of failing is exactly the same as not doing it anyways so you should always 100% be attempting to do it.

 

[Kanelol]

Maybe it's just about hitting buttons really fast

i mean, if it's not, maybe we should all just gb2Pong

 

[Pink Reaper]

I love hitting buttons fast, that's why I play Melee and Guitar Hero.

 

[darkgirku]

Umm.

How would Auto-Lcanceling even work? If the game tried to input an L cancel for you every time you get close to the ground with an aerial, wouldn't you be forced to always miss a tech if you get hit after the auto input but before landing?

Unless that time frame limit to teching was also removed... thereby making that the actual problem?
Or auto L-canceling could mean simply reducing the lag for all aerials? I wouldn't even be able to classify that as "auto-Lcanceling", rather, making everything less laggy.

[I know they've done some sort of auto lcancel in some brawl+ versions or whatever... but i dont know anything about that.]

Like it has been said, the technically optional L cancel gives you the actual control of exactly when and why you wanna do something. You need experience to know when to l cancel (hitting, hitting sheild, hitting nothing) and when not to L cancel (after an autocancel, because if you tried to "lcancel" that, you would unwillingly put up your shield and shield release, leaving you vulnerable.)

 

[pockyD]

Umm.

How would Auto-Lcanceling even work? If the game tried to input an L cancel for you every time you get close to the ground with an aerial, wouldn't you be forced to always miss a tech if you get hit after the auto input but before landing?

Unless that time frame limit to teching was also removed... thereby making that the actual problem?

???

reduce landing lag of all aerial moves by 50%

done

how is that confusing?

Or auto L-canceling could mean simply reducing the lag for all aerials? I wouldn't even be able to classify that as "auto-Lcanceling", rather, making everything less laggy.

oh, so you did think of it... why'd you make the post then?

 

[darkgirku]

I guess I kinda wanted to know what everyone was defining auto-lcanceling as. :/

That "solution" just didn't come to me by the name "auto-lcanceling", but okay. lol

 

[KAOSTAR]

Also, just for the record you can eliminate your teching problem by lightly pressing L/R or using Z to l cancel.

for me its just a bit harder to press it lightly because I have to exert some level of control, I still need to be fast, yet I have to slow down the impact.

Btw KAOSTAR you're arguing the wrong thing. Even if no one L-cancels 100% of the time, they still try. Its still a "Do it or else" tech. That's not depth, that's needless complexity. Yes, forcing a missed L-cancel adds depth, but that doesnt really proves the point, the tech is so mandatory that you have to make strategies to make people NOT do it.

And taking out L-canceling =\= taking out Wavedashing and other advanced techs. Doing that was ****ing ******** since things like Dash Dancing and Wavedashing opened up a HUGE amount of options. L-canceling opened no options that wouldnt have been there with auto L-canceling anyways. That's the real issue here, superfluous tech skill vs useful tech skill. L-Canceling really is a superfluous technique. There is no Risk/Reward to it because the "Risk" of failing is exactly the same as not doing it anyways so you should always 100% be attempting to do it.

Well the way I look at it, is that its a necessary inhibitor. In mario Kart double dash, you power slide and hit the opposite way to activate a boost for when you release. Why not just auto boost?

The closer you attack to the ground, the more of a frame advantage you would have, the closer you attack the least amount of time you have 2 L cancel. That was the risk reward I was speaking of.

You dont open up options that you couldnt do on your own, but they are limited to more skilled players. Fox would be easier to space with, combo with, shield pressure with, to a level that it would change the game as we know it.

It keeps people from just beasting with spacies.

Ppl try to L cancel 100% of the time, but the fact that they dont, in some ways separates ppl into groups. You will get punished for missing an L cancel. We all know how to shffl, but there are still those times that something unexpected happens. You wont get punished for trying to L cancel when you ledge cancel, or get a shield input when you auto cancel. Maybe you full hop instead of sh, normally you might **** up, but not with auto L canceling. Its just a knowhow that is best left in the game.

Alot of ppl enjoy complexities that separate ppl along a larger learning curve.

Its a basic fundamental part of the game that requires practice. There is nothing wrong with a game require some practice. It requires a level of consistency that takes some sort of dedication to do. I might understand if it was just unnecessarily difficult that it may effect gameplay.

 

[Pink Reaper]

They have auto boost. It was put in MKWii. Didnt really change much.

 

[KAOSTAR]

They have auto boost. It was put in MKWii. Didnt really change much.

Lol, I disagree, its not nearly as good of a game. You also boosted on a timed interval, it didnt allow you to push boosting to its limits. really slow with auto boost and dumb.

There was a difficulty that came with boosting. You cant just do it as fast as you can because you may **** up.

You had to worry about steering as well. Why not take out boosting and just make the cars go faster but the tracks bigger to compensate and that way my little brother wont fall off rainbow road everytime.

This was the second title I almost cried about when they moved it to the wii. brawl was the first.

I was just a bit disappointed with mario galaxy, I didnt dislike TP but I jus wished it was harder, but that would have been number 4.

 

[jugfingers]

???

reduce landing lag of all aerial moves by 50%

why not 90%?

 

[Pink Reaper]

The game isnt as good for reasons completely separate from the addition of automatic mini-turbo. Still fun though.

 

[Stev]

Lol, I disagree, its not nearly as good of a game. You also boosted on a timed interval, it didnt allow you to push boosting to its limits. really slow with auto boost and dumb.

There was a difficulty that came with boosting. You cant just do it as fast as you can because you may **** up.

You had to worry about steering as well. Why not take out boosting and just make the cars go faster but the tracks bigger to compensate and that way my little brother wont fall off rainbow road everytime.

I wouldn't say that's due to the autoboost but more because of how items appear. It doesn't seperate people with better driving skills. I drove perfectly once and at the very end got hit by 2 blue shells and a red shell and went from dominating to 5th.

 

[Pink Reaper]

you managed to keep up to 5th place after 2 blue shells and a red?

**** you. I'd be in dead last after that.

 

[KAOSTAR]

That happens in all the mario karts. that was just the fun factor of the game, that was the casual appeal really.

But the driving is what pissed me off. ****ing jumps and flips and wheelies and ****. and AUTO BOOST.

pretty bad game imo, I cant play another one if its not as good as DD.


But you can turn the items off in DD for a pure competitve race. In MKWiii, even then Id be mad

 

[ZOM~B]

I've played it. I'm rank1 in my gold division. I micro less in SC2 than i do in WC3. I play protoss, but terran simply has to do this: Sit in their base making marines and marauders. Scan the enemy semi frequently to check their build and make sure they didn't expand. Wait for them to attack. If they dont attack, expand. Eventually when you hit 200/200 you attack cause you're bored and can't press "A" and "D" to make units anymore.

For a battle all they have to do is this: Select all units, press A, click towards the enemy

1.) game is still in beta, balance issues pending
2.) learn to use psi storm, it is 100% necessary against terran marine push, void rays are key against marauders. It's a tough timing for protoss, if you can't deal with it, it's over.

 

[Jam Stunna]

But you can turn the items off in DD for a pure competitve race. In MKWiii, even then Id be mad

Who turns off items in Mario Kart? That sounds like one of the least fun things ever.

My major complaint for MKWii is the ******** item scaling. Blue shells would be bearable if you could actually get a star or mushroom while in first place.

 

[Jonas]

Who turns off items in Smash Bros? That sounds like one of the least fun things ever.

Seriously though, some people play Smash "purely for fun" and view tournament play in Smash Bros. as "non-fun". If I were to play Mario Kart competitively, I'd appreciate being able to play without stupid overpowered items.
In MKWii you can actually set items to "basic", which means only the most basic items like bananas, red and green shells etc. can be obtained, which sounds ideal for competitive MK.

 

[Brightside6382]

1.) game is still in beta, balance issues pending
2.) learn to use psi storm, it is 100% necessary against terran marine push, void rays are key against marauders. It's a tough timing for protoss, if you can't deal with it, it's over.

It doesn't matter if he learns how to storm properly or not. Storm's effectiveness is pitiful now after the AOE nerf and MMM balls are the least of P's troubles now anyways with reaper harrass builds completely shutting down P's attempts at any kind of early game opening. Think about it, P's attempts to counter bio-balls forces them to go an extremely diverse army thats more micro intensive to counter a T that just A-moves all day.

But yea its still in beta so...

 

[AlcyoNite]

i think the problem with the GH analogy is that GH is pretty much only a test of timely button hitting; melee is not a game about L-cancelling - that's just one of the things that's importanct mind you minimally important considering how many other things are more rimportant and how second nature it usually is.

That is how it adds to the depth. Not because it requires more button mashing, but because it adds the extra dimension of tech skill that you need to think about (and ideally get to the point where you never have to think about it, but everyone messes it up here and there).

That's what makes competitive fighters deeper: Micro-managing tech to contribute most efficiently and effectively to your macro.

This is like talking to a brick wall

your post that i was responding to was built on the sole premise that "everyone L-cancels all of the time," while

i along with many others here have stated (including the Berserker himself) that NO one L-cancels all of the time and some (including myself earlier) have argued that it actually adds depth rather than unnecessarily complicates the game

I dont see how i'm a brick wall if Im attacking your logic directly

edit again: i seem to make my points clearer in a convo setting; aim? lol