The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[vato_break]

i've played edreese's yoshi a few times. i can't really add too much input but, from what i know, it is sometimes hard for yoshi to get momentum back once mario has a rhythm going and fireballs can really hinder some of yoshi's options. Also regular cape does not stop all eggs but, reverse cape will reflect all eggs.

 

[Metatitan]

Hey Hades, I second pikachu too, and I know for sure I'd beat you with him. Does that mean I'm good evidence for learning the pikachu matchup? No because I'm new with him and hes not my main.

 

[hadesblade]

Hey Hades, I second pikachu too, and I know for sure I'd beat you with him. Does that mean I'm good evidence for learning the pikachu matchup? No because I'm new with him and hes not my main.

lol? Your pika is sooo bad. Wobbles actually uses mario. Thats like saying friendlies with bwett's yoshi wouldn't be good for learning yoshi MU.

And gtfo you don't use mario or yoshi. <3

 

[A2ZOMG]

I regret to say that I have no videos of myself against any Yoshi players, and I do not know of any other miscellaneous footage these players may have. I have actual experience, which does include tournament matches.

However, if you were curious about Mario's Hyphen Smash, I did in fact record this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF1-X1Gqgas#t=1m10s

Yoshi doesn't outlive Mario. Up-smashes kill at the same percents, but Mario's honestly is more viable in general since he can Up-smash out of shield after forcing an approach or in general taking advantage of Yoshi's fail applications of KO moves. Mario's D-smash isn't powerful, but it still kills earlier, and it's actually a pretty safe move for the most part. Mario's F-smash is much easier to land than its frame data suggests, due to the fact it is the 5th or so longest ranged F-smash in the entire game (and btw, Ike's stutter step does nothing.) and it definitely kills earlier. The fact that this move is allowed to punish virtually every move in this game makes it an extremely useful KO move, and it's the best of all leanback based F-smashes by far in terms of power and utility options.

Mario's air game is better. Less lag/commitment on aerials, more combo options, more pressure options, existent block strings. Mario can actually create openings and force mistakes when he approaches. Yoshi? Not so much.

I have no reason to argue this matchup any further and restate the data I have already presented. All I can say at this point is that you really are overhyping Yoshi's strengths, and not recognizing superior tools and strategies.

 

[Inferno3044]

It seems that a good majority of people are calling this 60:40 Mario. We have discussed this enough and I think we should end it at that.

 

[Shahryar2010]

Sheik next anyone?

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I'll agree for the Mario mainers to discuss Sheik.

My Opinion for this MU: 50/50 Even - 55/45 Mario

Sheik is fast and versatile w/ her moves. Her needles is decent but our fireballs is better and we can cape it. Mario and Sheik somewhat shares the same strength but Mario got the better smashes. It's takes Sheik so long to kill us b/c we can last up to 150% and we kill Sheik just like that b/c Mario is little bit more powerful and got more weight. Sheik is a fast-faller like Fox, we can lock her into up-tilt @ low percentages and start to juggle her. Her best moves to make us to lose a stock is up-smash when it's sweetspotted, her sexy DACUS and I'm guessing the other one is possibly Vanish. She can F-tilt us @ low percentages but not as much as we can up-tilt her. Vanish is somewhat not good if we edgeguard, cape, or FLUDD it. Side B is better than Vanish. Best stages to fight her on is Battlefield, Smashville?, Frigate Opheon, Lylat Cruise?, & Brinstar?.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sheik is really even overall...she does better racking damage and camping to some degree, although you land kills a little more easily in general.

 

[Javon89]

50/50 cause Shiek and Mario look very matched up as opposed to Melee because of Mario's new tools. I wonder what input the Sheikahs are gonna say.

 

[A2ZOMG]

After you do your juggle to mid percents, this matchup is about baiting people into the Jab confirmed grab and spaced fastfalled aerial for the most part, and then baiting into the kill move. Whichever player does this better wins basically.

 

[Inferno3044]

Sheik has some pretty nasty things. She has amazing movement speed, a good DACUS, annoying as hell ftilt, and other shenanigans. You really can't reflect needles because more will just come if you cape it and you can't PS it because there's multiple. Her chain I think can ledgeguard and can swat fireballs, making it not easy to fireball camp. You don't wanna get into an ftilt lock. It's really annoying and can easily be ended with Utilt for some good damage.

For Mario, fireballs are very good for mid range spacing and are spammable unlike Sheik's needles. Sheik has no answer to our bair and zoning with it is good until you get momentum. Edgeguarding Sheik is definitely possible, but if you see her try to recover get away. She has invincibility frames during her recovery. FIHL works pretty well against her and is a good set up for a kill move like Fsmash which is beastly.

I know I didn't say things for both characters but I know that. I guess it's pretty even. It's a pretty momentum based MU. Also I can't find a Sheik MU thread. Where should I post this.

 

[Famous]

Sheiks DACUS is like extremely obvious though...Most of her kill moves are somewhat obvious. Mario lives alot longer in this match since you really only have to worry about two kill moves: Uair and DACUS. You can survive a Bair past 180%+ with well DI. I DI upwards due to her horizontal KB on her Bair.

If you block a Dacus you can DSmash Sheik before she can react. You can also UPB and Nair out of her Ftilt lock...

Matchup in general isn't that difficult, I'd be more worried about Zelda due to her killing potential...Some players rack damage with Sheik then kills with Zelda...This is something to be worried about against someone who plays both characters well...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sheik has some pretty nasty things. She has amazing movement speed, a good DACUS, annoying as hell ftilt, and other shenanigans. You really can't reflect needles because more will just come if you cape it and you can't PS it because there's multiple. Her chain I think can ledgeguard and can swat fireballs, making it not easy to fireball camp. You don't wanna get into an ftilt lock. It's really annoying and can easily be ended with Utilt for some good damage.

Her movement speed is the most annoying thing in this matchup. On a moveset basis, she's entirely handleable.

Her F-tilt is annoying, but remember you do have a solid U-tilt juggle on her, not to mention properly timed N-airs/Up-Bs can break it. Her chain is easy to work around, just fireball camp it.

Famous basically nailed the other nuances of this matchup.

I've played this matchup a LOT. There are at least two pro Sheik users in my area, so I've gotten a lot of experience in how the matchup goes. It's a lot of baiting into SHFFed aerials and Jab confirmed grabs, since those are the safest ways of racking up damage past mid percents. If possible, you want to focus on gimps more than kills, although Mario can score the KO more easily if he needs to.

 

[JUDGE]

thi MU is pretty even
while sheik can combo mario faster, mario has the better kill options
all i have to say is don't do the mistake and airdodge her upair^^
she can bair you right after you airdogde ends
just capestall when you see it comin'
abuse you fireballs and don't get ftilt=> anything
bair spacing works good^^
may the one with the better skill win^^

 

[Inferno3044]

I'd be more worried about Zelda due to her killing potential

Really? I think Zelda far easier. I played someone a couple weeks ago who used Sheik and when he got to his last stock as Sheik, he switched to Zelda (I was at ~80%). I actually caught up because he switched to Zelda. To me, Sheik is much more of a threat than Zelda because Sheik can get some momentum on you while Zelda can't do that well.

 

[zeldspazz]

Hmm not much of a Sheiker myself, my Zelda is far better, but dont underestimate needles

In reponse to the switching to Zelda:

Zeldas is a really good option in this matchup at ~90-100%
Simply because she doesnt do too bad against Mario (you guys decided on 55-45 Mario adv. right?) and she just has to wait for an opening to get a kill move in (its not too hard she has too many and outranges Mario -.-) Its key that her kill moves are fresh too, because where Fsmash or Usmash usually wouldnt kill they will now.

Im not gonna debate going all Sheik though, not too knowledgeable in that aspect. They are simply better played together in a lot of matchups, minus like MK, Snake, Olimar, and GaW (Zelda's **** matchups). So if you were gonna put a ratio on Sheik/Zelda used together, Id put it slightly her than solo Sheik. I wanna see what solo Sheikers have to say though

@Inferno: Im guessing your opponent was probably worse at Zelda than Sheik or didnt know the matchup too well. Its not surprising, most Sheik mains dont put much effort into Zelda besides being character specific like IC, which is sad considering they compliment each other so well.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Uhh, Sheik and Zelda is alter-egos, Zelda is somewhat easier to take down due to poor recovery and she can get juggle. Sheik is just a complete different match-up from Zelda. Zeldaspazz, u're right about Zelda being a good option for the match-up around us Mario @ around @ 90-100%. Zelda is all about being so defensive and plays patiently on Mario and wait for the right time to use her moves against Mario. Sheik is just aggressive and makes the match-up challenging. If we put a ratio of Zelda/Sheik, the match-up is slightly in our favor. 52/48 Mario since I figure out the ratio, Sheik would do better to fight us off due to little bit of f-tilt locking and other faster moves and Zelda just only got power to take us down.

 

[zeldspazz]

Uhh, Sheik and Zelda is alter-egos, Zelda is somewhat easier to take down due to poor recovery and she can get juggle. Sheik is just a complete different match-up from Zelda. Zeldaspazz, u're right about Zelda being a good option for the match-up around us Mario @ around @ 90-100%. Zelda is all about being so defensive and plays patiently on Mario and wait for the right time to use her moves against Mario. Sheik is just aggressive and makes the match-up challenging. If we put a ratio of Zelda/Sheik, the match-up is slightly in our favor. 52/48 Mario since I figure out the ratio, Sheik would do better to fight us off due to little bit of f-tilt locking and other faster moves and Zelda just only got power to take us down.

You're not getting what Im saying.

You're not suppose to average the ratios, which Im guessing you are doing, because thats completely illogical. That Zelda ratio is for when Zelda is playing the entire match by herself. Its a completely different discussion and different matchup when played together in the same match. One reason you guys are saying is that Sheik has worse kill options. Well, switching to Zelda when all of her kills moves are fresh and youve got a little harder time staying alive because 1 Fsmash tip can kill you or something like that. Zelda just helped Sheik with this matchup. Now, whether youre going to agree with me or not is up to you guys, but this is my thought process. Youre not going to avoid getting hit for very long since even the Zelda matchup isnt far in Mario's advantage at all.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I somewhat agree w/ you, I know that we can't avoid everything when Zelda does her smashes, she's too good that and yeah we gonna have a harder time to deal w/ it but that's the only way that Zelda can help Sheik, it's just her power (smashes) and her side tilt.

 

[zeldspazz]

Only way to help = still a way to help, making it better when used together
Also Zelda's ftilt probably wont be doing a whole lot, I hate that move. But anyway, lets not spam about Zelda anymore, this is the Sheik discussion afterall!

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Sure, no problem, I'll say Mario vs Sheik is 50/50 cuz some of the Mario mainers is agreeing w/ it.

 

[Matador]

This is a pretty even matchup. I'll settle for 50:50 or slight advantage in either direction.

One of the more fun matchups in the game.

 

[hippiedude92]

if your going matador up here... then you know i gotta break all plans and make sure l go to Nj just to play you matador D:

edit : YOU FGT MATADOR FOR POSTING IN WRONG THREAD

edit : i think its 5:5 dont get ftilt'd

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I would say it's a little in Sheik's favor. (55-45)

If anything, you guys need to ask Monk about this MU. Me and him team and have played this MU to death.

Yes, once Sheik gets momentum going, it's a loose freight train. Fireballs will be the best bet against DACUS as long as the Sheik is unpredictable. What was said though about Dsmash after shielding DACUS is true though. Needles can rack damage pretty efficiently; although you guys have cape, Sheik should only throw at opportune moments. FLUDD doesn't really hinder recovery at all. As far as Sheik gimping, she is still good at it lol. Mario is definitely good offstage though so Sheik has to be careful. Anyway, that's my little blurb, go ahead and summon Monk.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

FLUDD kinda hinders does her Up-B, it's not that hard to do. Sheik's Vanish ain't that good and plus we Mario's gotta edgeguard just in time to stop you guys from recovering w/ Side-B. I don't see 55/45 Sheik. Like Famous said, this match-up is not that difficult.

 

[Veggi]

Scary, are you available to go to the Play and Trade on Dale Mabry sometime this week?

Not that it has any weight on the matchup, but play for experience or lulz.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Man, Mario is getting a lot of 50/50 matchups in Brawl lol.

 

[Javon89]

I know that how seriously balanced he is. I swear I think he's the most balanced character in smash history.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Mario is the balanced character in Smash. Btw, are we done discussing Sheik and calling it 50/50 or no?

 

[JUDGE]

yeah i would agree with 50/50
don't get hit by her ftilt(leads to everything), always be ready to dodge/shield her DAC when you are on great distance,don't get hit offstage by fair(even if it's not as strong as it was in melee)
****ing abuse your fireballs!!! stay on midrange, bair!!!!, don't dodge her upair (capestall)
uptill lock!!
and be ready to fludd her recovery when shes not sweetspotting the edge

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

So that's it, are we done w/ Sheik and call it 50/50?

 

[Diddyknight]

lol you said that twice Gerald xD It prabably is >_>

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

lol I wanna move on. Everyone seems to know the matchup anyways

 

[Matador]

We knew it before we decided to go at it again...lol

But meh, can't fault Inferno for being thorough.

 

[Inferno3044]

We knew it before we decided to go at it again...lol

But meh, can't fault Inferno for being thorough.

I wasn't here for most of the originial MU discussions.

Only two characters left: C. Falcon and Ganondorf. We almost there.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Ok which one CF or Ganon?

 

[Shahryar2010]

I say CF because its better if we save the lowest tier character for last.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf is worse than Captain Falcon though.

As a Ganon user, I can tell you this. So we must save him for last.

 

[Inferno3044]

Ganondorf is worse than Captain Falcon though.

As a Ganon user, I can tell you this. So we must save him for last.

Lol. you use Ganon

 

[Matt07]

Ganon's higher then Mario on Ankoku's Character's Ranking thread...

.