The Brawl Community is immune to logic

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Link to original post: [drupal=3791]The Brawl Community is immune to logic[/drupal]



Quote:
Originally Posted by JoWiiCIDE
If logic was reality, BPC would be king. >_> In his mind, anything illogical is wrong.

Speaking ironically about my posts. The sad part, of course, is that people are siding with him on this.

This is all during fallout of the new "BBR tournament standard", which is not BBR-endorsed at all, and which I am fairly angry about for various reasons (and consider to be a great idea with horrid execution). And while this is just one of the more prominent cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by etecoon
there's nothing to be gained from me arguing in a more persuasive manner because most people agree with me anyway, I don't have to convince anyone of anything when almost no one would claim FD's lack of hazards is more of a problem than brinstars proliferation of them

Wait. Hang on a second. Guys, bear with me.

I just logically proved something... And they will all disagree with me for no good reason and/or ignore that logic.


WHAT?

WHATWHATWHAT?????

Do they have any idea how stupid that would make you look if you weren't in the majority? Do they even understand how backwards that thought process is? "It's logically sound, but I don't agree with it therefore it's wrong" is not sensible in the slightest! It's exactly the kind of illogical, misinformed crap that is ruining every part of life, from education (religious fanatics enforcing creationism) to politics (the modern republicans/tea partyers who believe that Obama is a socialist and that the ground zero mosque has to be stopped and will ignore any and all reason for... well... anything they disagree with, no matter how illogical they are) to smash (idiots who don't understand what they're talking about; at least in terms of the skills that are needed for ruleset development; crafting rulesets which make NO SENSE).

I'm getting really depressed by the community. This idea that game experience should triumph over EVERYTHING ELSE is ridiculous, because personal experience and anecdotes can (and usually DO) lead to false results. I mean, if you take a new player, he'll ***** about FD's ledges. Take a tournament player, he'll ***** about how he lost because of random stage element X. And yet you logically show him why banning the stage because of his failure is wrong, and he'll tell you that YOU'RE the scrub. Ask for reasoning as to why one stage ban is better than two in a semiliberal ruleset (for why 2 is better, see here) and you'll get a ragtag collection of Appeal to Authority ("Why have one ban? Because Xyro/Alyx/AZ/Tantalus/Havok decided there would be one ban."), Appeal to Tradition ("An arbitrary choice that was proven to be successful in various, national-sized tournaments? Who the hell cares, it works."), and Appeal to the Majority ("because Pound 5, Genesis 2, Whobo 3, MLG (if there is still MLG *crosses fingers*), and Apex all use one ban"). Keep in mind that that last quote comes from AlphaZealot, who is supposed to be one of the most responsible members of the community!

Ugh. This community... Speaking logically to Smashers about why their ruleset is flawed is like speaking logically to born-again tea partiers about why prohibiting a mosque at ground zero goes against the most important cornerstones of this country-even if you make a lot of sense, they aren't going to give two ****s. At best, two ****s on your head.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I stopped caring about debates about rulesets a looong time ago.

If you enjoy doing it though (which you do), by all means, continue and just deal with dumb people and point this out to them.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

You're part of the Brawl community? I thought you were just part of the SWF community.

 

[ChKn]

Someone sounds salty.

Just accept that some-to-most of the people here don't buy in to what you're selling.

 

[BSP]

Someone sounds salty.

Just accept that some-to-most of the people here act like scrubs.

There we go

 

[LordoftheMorning]

I think you just now displayed an irrational amount of prejudice by lumping all your least favorite people into a group and trying to compare it to the brawl community. "Republican" "creationist" "born-again" "tea-partiers" "who think the ground zero mosque must be stopped". That's a lot of factions that have to coincide, and anyone from a single one of these parties would be indignant. I haven't checked the stats, but I sincerely doubt that all tea-partiers, or perhaps even a significant amount of them, are even creationist, republican, born-again, and against the ground zero mosque in the first place. I hope that you know something about each of these parties you're denouncing, otherwise you would be a complete fool to make a claim like that. You've now turned everyone who may sympathize with any of those groups off to your actual point, hurting the effectiveness of your argument. Perhaps you're assuming that none of those people would have half a brain to understand your point anyways? (such an assumption would be, by the way, a fallacy of hasty generalization).

Of course I do realize it was an example, but it was a downright horrible example that I felt the need to comment on. I can definitely agree that many of the policies the smash community uses don't stand on logical ground.

However, now let's say I was too irritated to see past the rather arrogant and indelicate way you made your point. If I that were the case, I would end up disagreeing with you even though you made sense. Why? Not because your argument is flawed, but because you have caused me to resent or distrust you. If logic doesn't give you your answer, psychology will.

 

[SuSa]

We play a game that, when I punch you - then punch you again.

You get hit further the 2nd time I punched you, in the same exact manner.

That isn't logical.

Thus we don't need logic.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Thus we don't need a ruleset.

Nor a forum.

tbh imo i gues

 

[Melomaniacal]

You're part of the Brawl community? I thought you were just part of the SWF community.

I like this post.

 

[Life]

@LOTM (nice username btw), while I concur, he's in Europe. I dunno what the media is like over there, but if it's anything like America's...

Other than that--keep shoutin' it from the rooftops BPC.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It's an unfortunate reality that most people don't really care about logic or reasoning. My experience in life up to this point teaches me the following.

The intelligent way to think is this:

1. Gather information about the world around you.
2. Analyze that information objectively.
3. Use that information in unison with the totality of your knowledge and a coherent philosophy to develop an outlook designed around objective facts and your own subjective, but rational and well founded, concept of "good".

Most people, on the other hand, think more like this:

1. Immediately form an opinion for emotional reasons and subconscious reasons that they cannot articulate.
2. Search for reasons to justify what they chose to believe before any analysis.
3. Get angry and/or offended if challenged on their beliefs. Only engage in civil discussion with people who either agree with them or at the very least concede ridiculous things that are effectively conceding the entire argument.

I do my best to promote the first style of thinking; promoting intelligent thought is what I consider important in my life above all else. The evidence just suggests that it's very hard for most people to operate like that. Just look at social phenomina like peer pressure or fear of change; there is absolutely zero logical reason to want to do something because others do it or not to want to do something because it's different from what it done now, but it's a very common thing. A simple understanding of chemistry, physics, and the natural selection algorithm explains it quite well and also in a way explains why, as frustrating as it is, it is actually less bad than it has ever been at any previous point in history, but I begin to digress. In any case, you have to understand that your argumentative style is basically completely uninformed by this, and that's why you are such a polarizing figure.

The thing is that a lack of concern for logic and objective fact and a dislike of being challenged is pervasive in human culture at large far beyond the smash community. My inspection of other competitive communities tells me that essentially all of them are the same, and the "health" of the community largely grows from the game itself. Smash has a lot of factors that complicate making rule sets and thus rule sets become an alienating factor as what many people intuitively believe and what is the strongest logical position are simply not in harmony. It really could be worse; have you looked at the Pokemon community any time in the past couple years? For that matter, competitive video games are far ahead of things like physical sports as well; we aren't burdened by massive rule books that practically dictate strategy, subjective referees, and ridiculous prohibitions about things like "sportsmanship" or "character" that restrict players. Heck, we even have open tournament formats so anyone can enter. Our community still does, by and large, allow skilled players to win whoever they are and celebrate them winning no matter how they win instead of crafting the rules to make the games play how they want. The fact that most of the community is pushing to use terrible stage lists and seems to like a few really dumb little rules that don't change the game too much but do hurt it is fairly minor in comparison to how bad it could be.

There's really not much to be done. You have to know some people argue for things to be done differently at various steps, but at the end you have to stop and think "This really does have some big problems and was formulated in a really bad way, but it could be a lot worse". I mean, personally as a player, I don't really find the game's current trends in rule sets nearly as fun since those rules really hurt Mr. Game & Watch a lot and really the more interactive stages are the most fun part of Brawl (actually Smash in general!), but it's not just about me and my preferences do I don't have too many sour grapes. It leads to me being less involved as a player than I would be otherwise, but again, I don't have sour grapes. Your alternative is basically finding something else you like more. Personally I'm really looking forward to Marvel vs Capcom 3; I'll have to play it first to know for sure, but it looks really fun (Dormammu is like Norfair in character form, and Arthur looks Mr. Game & Watch level awesome) and would be a game with common sense rules which could be a stress reliever to focus on. I can also focus on single player games or my various projects that are more about design than play for me personally (like Balanced Brawl!). You, too, have these options; do what you will.

 

[masterdrenin]

At the very least, the brawl community and its posters provide some modicum of entertainment.

 

[Lord Chair]

ITT: Someone finally learning that people are really stupid. Life lessons like those are life-changing, and I wager TEH CADET has some difficulty integrating his new-found insight in his general way of thinking.

Good going, young apprentice, you're one step further in understanding how the world works. Just don't get worked up over it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

<stuff>

O.O

Whoa, sorry...

Someone sounds salty.

Just accept that some-to-most of the people here don't buy in to what you're selling.

It's not that they won't buy into what I'm selling. It's that they won't act like they had brains!!! Read the quotes in the OP. That's the kind of bull**** I'm bemoaning. And AA sums it up well.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

if the Brawl Community was logical they wouldn't be playing Brawl

so then there wouldn't be a community

paradox much?

 

[Lord Chair]

if the Brawl Community was logical they wouldn't be playing Brawl

so then there wouldn't be a community

paradox much?

I think you're just switching the cause with the consequence, I'm not sure if paradox would be the right term, I wager it's a specific sort of fallacy I can't quite put my finger on. May be wrong at that though.

 

[RATED]

 

[highfive]

Nope Nope Nope. Your all wrong. This thread is illogical. In fact, your all trolls.

~ The Brawl Community

 

[Fuelbi]

this is why I stopped playing Bawrl

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Budget Player Cadet, While what you say holds merit and makes scene, people who do not like admitting they where wrong will just ignore what you are saying even if you are 100% right. I, myself, will be honest in saying I have no clue how to deal with such people. However I will, and I mean the following as a joke, recommend that you try to communicate with them in a different format perhaps one which they can not ignore like the following... http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=4550153 or something like that.

 

[Lore]

This is why I never post in any Brawl debate.

Nice read.

 

[Luxor]

"Republican" "creationist" "born-again" "tea-partiers" "who think the ground zero mosque must be stopped"

The sad thing is I'm almost half of these lol.

 

[Teran]

Oh and before someone starts to attack Luxor for having a viewpoint in life, think about it.

I'm here to kill you if you try.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

nah having a controversial viewpoint is fine as long as you can provide valid reasoning for how and why you came to the conclusions that shape your viewpoint when challenged

give us some credit teran

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

"Republican" "creationist" "born-again" "tea-partiers" "who think the ground zero mosque must be stopped"

The sad thing is I'm almost half of these lol.

Please be the half that isn't completely logically awful (hint: the logically awful ones are "creationist" and "against the mosque")...

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

You can be a logical creationist.

I really don't appreciate your unfair generalizations. To think that you're a smash "debater"...

hmmm

makes me reconsider joining

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

502 Gateway Error or Awesome double post

you be the judge

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Please be the half that isn't completely logically awful (hint: the logically awful ones are "creationist" and "against the mosque")...

Now you're being just plain old offensive. If in your mind it isn't logical, that's fine. I can list a number of things about evolution that are completely and utterly illogical, but you don't see me going around calling those who believe the theory of evolution stupid now, do you? Particularly not when trying to discuss something completely unrelated like, oh, I don't know...Brawl maybe? There is a thing called "tact" you might wanna look into.

You want people to respect you at all? Can the insults completely. Even then, it will probably take a long time before most people on this site will even give you the time of day. If you truly want people to listen to you, if you truly want to make a difference in the smash community, you will learn to keep your arguments civil and when to simply keep your mouth shut. If you just want to make noise, or just argue even when you don't have fully developed arguments, you will continue to insult people and give half-baked examples until you're shut down by the banhammer. It's that simple.

 

[RATED]

inb4adhominem

BPC: you just care too much about stuff, play the game, get good at it and ignore people... also who no one cares about the opinion of someone that can't win or do something good.

 

[Lore]

inb4adhominem

BPC: also who no one cares about the opinion of someone that can't win or do something good.

Then let's go fire all of the football referees! They probably can't play as well as the players.

Having a lot of Smash knowledge is not the same or even related to playing well.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Now you're being just plain old offensive. If in your mind it isn't logical, that's fine. I can list a number of things about evolution that are completely and utterly illogical, but you don't see me going around calling those who believe the theory of evolution stupid now, do you? Particularly not when trying to discuss something completely unrelated like, oh, I don't know...Brawl maybe? There is a thing called "tact" you might wanna look into.

Let's just run down the basics...
-Creationism, more specifically young earth creationism is a religious creation, based in the entirely religious belief that the earth was created by god 6000 years ago.
-All geological/scientific discoveries over the last hundred years or so show that, at least on a scientific level, the concept of the earth being only 6000 years old, or anything short of several billion, is ridiculous.
-Creationists, or at least the sort I am intending to offend (honestly, if you belong to this group, I just don't give a **** any more-you can all burn in your own self-created hell) are the ones who are trying to push a purely religious idea (not even a theory, thank you very much) with no backing facts whatsoever in the science classes of a secularized nation, in itself a breach with the 1st amendment.

I don't care if I'm offending creationists. Creationists who can keep their opinions to themselves are fine in my books, but the moment they go public with that belief, the exact same kind of belief that would keep us in the dark ages by denying scientific advancement in favor of religious demagoguery, they are open to my criticism and scorn.

Now regarding the ground zero mosque, this thread basically says all there is to say about it. Those who would support political action against it are either bigoted and stupid, or manipulative and evil.

I don't know why we went into this, but whatever.

You want people to respect you at all? Can the insults completely. Even then, it will probably take a long time before most people on this site will even give you the time of day. If you truly want people to listen to you, if you truly want to make a difference in the smash community, you will learn to keep your arguments civil and when to simply keep your mouth shut. If you just want to make noise, or just argue even when you don't have fully developed arguments, you will continue to insult people and give half-baked examples until you're shut down by the banhammer. It's that simple.

I've been doing pretty well on the insult front. Honestly, if you can't slander the stereotypes which are famous for being stereotypically stupid to make a comparison... what the hell?

And I've been trying to keep it civil. Nobody has been listening.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You're not being civil. You are offending people. The moment you are offending people, you are no longer being civil. Heck, in that last post there you managed to decide everyone should scorn me because I want to "stay in the dark ages" or some crap like that (ignoring the fact that I'm taking mostly science courses, love physics, planning to go to med-school, ect and oh BTW science itself suggests that there was intelligent design involved with the creation of earth and the universe

Spoiler

(please note the lack of me saying "creationism" and just "intelligent design", which can range from basically any religion to aliens for all I care)

, it's just that many prefer to not look at it that way because it would upset what science has established. Hey, isn't that kinda like that whole dark age thing you were referring to?) while telling me to go burn in a fire, and called me a bigot/stupid/manipulative/evil. And you wonder why people don't care at all about what you say?

Why did we go into this? You started it. You made the list. You are the one insulting for no real reason. You're the one that started ranting about creationists and Republicans randomly. You've got nobody to blame but yourself for the amount of ridicule you receive. Heck, right now you just made a huge ad howhatyamacallit argument more or less (or at least the footwork for one), which is something you're always telling others to stop using.

Smarten up already man. I'm fairly sure you just managed to kill off what little support you had managed to keep during your various insulting rant topics. Not only does it seriously undermine any argument you try to make, you makes you look like a huge hypocrite. You aren't going to win any arguments like that, even if somehow managed to magically steal all of Einstein's and Tesla's knowledge and logical thinking abilities. Instead you'll probably end up with a banhammer to the face.

 

[professor mgw]

I don't care if I'm offending creationists. Creationists who can keep their opinions to themselves are fine in my books, but the moment they go public with that belief, the exact same kind of belief that would keep us in the dark ages by denying scientific advancement in favor of religious demagoguery, they are open to my criticism and scorn.

I hope you get run over by a bus, thrown into a lake, sat on by queen latifah, smacked with a million sacks, fall off a airplane, and live the rest of life miserable.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

good to see a smash debater show respect to the opposing side

now I see why nobody likes you. nobody at mcleod liked you either iirc

Honestly, there are creationists who have well thought-out beliefs backed up with the philosophies of generations of metaphysicists. I may not agree with their beliefs, as atheists also have much evidence, but I at least show respect where due. You, on the other hand, are a disgrace to anything resembling a proper "debater" and am very disappointed to see that the Debate Hall allowed you in.

Also, you killed your thread. This thread is going to be locked pretty soon.

 

[professor mgw]

You, on the other hand, are a disgrace to anything resembling a proper "debater" and am very disappointed to see that the Debate Hall allowed you in.

Exactly. Wish a mod would lock this.

 

[highfive]

Exactly. Wish a mod would lock this.

You know what's your problem mgw? I'm too handsome.

 

[Lythium]

highfive, you deserve a high five!

In all seriousness, I don't really know why you felt the need to air your dirty laundry here, BPC. And you're kinda offensive.

No offense.

 

[Rappster]

Bpc: I have the utmost respect for you. You, pierce7d, alphaZealot, and amphoros are the reason why i ever read the brawl forums at all.
I appreciate your use of solid logic and your lack of assumptions, but I believe your approach is flawed.

First, being abrasive and correct will not win supporters (for the most part). If I opened this post by talking about how your use of “born-again tea partiers” as an example of irrational thought was an insensitive ****move, i’m sure you would be much less inclined to read the rest of this post.

Second, in a democracy, logic will NEVER change the status quo. People who are incapable of correctly using logic are also probably incapable of recognizing good logic. If you want to effect a change, go to people with influence (BR and TOs) and convince them of your points. The masses will follow.

Third, I’d like to challenge your basic premise. If I understand you correctly, you are generally anti-ban for anything that is not proven – beyond reasonable doubt – to be broken or degenerate for a significant portion of all matchups. This is because you believe that gameplay should be simultaneously equitable, but also as diverse as possible. For the sake of argument discussion, perhaps a simpler ruleset is better because if more players understand a ruleset, then the tournament as a whole will run more quickly and with fewer complaints. If diversity must be sacrificed for efficiency, then so be it (to a degree).

Regardless our differences, I appreciate your efforts to make this forum a more intelligent place. Best of luck!

p.s. As a born-again Christian, libertarian and proponent of intelligent design, i would request that you pick other groups to demonize as illogical emotion-led.

 

[El Nino]

Everyone, calm down.

This being User's Blogs, people are allowed to express their opinions here, even political opinions, even opinions on other political organizations they don't agree with. My only problem here is that this thread has gone way off course from the intended topic and people are getting really emotional. Discussion on controversial topics is allowed, passionate responses to gross injustices (or whatever) is allowed, but personal attacks are not. And I am saying that to everyone in this thread. If you're going to attack something, attack a person's position or argument; don't direct insults at a person.

"That's a stupid argument" is fine.

"You're stupid for believing in that argument" is not okay.

 

[Teran]

give us some credit teran

*Reads following posts*

LOLOLOLOLOL

This is why I don't, indeed, give you guys any sort of credit.