The Big PSA List thread *updated 02/16/10*

[.Fade]

I feel like this has been addressed so many times already, but I can't seem to find it.

How do you make external graphic effects disappear at the end of the animation?

 

[[TSON]]

Found out something I think you all would find quite useful.

0E060100 is not "multiply blah blah momentum blah". It is DISABLE GRAVITY AND CONSERVE MOMENTUM.

So, Kinetic Module Generic (0E) is this:

0E01- Momentum Add
0E02- Momentum Reset
0E03- Vertical Momentum Reset
0E04- Horizontal Gravity Off/Set Momentum (?)
0E05- Horizontal Gravity On
0E06- Vertical Gravity Off
0E07- Vertical Gravity On
0E08- Momentum Set
0E09- Not Documented

I'm not seeing a pattern here.

 

[Shaya]

Hello,

I consider myself to have reasonable expertise and knowledge of Marth in Brawl, and I recently thought I'd tap into the PSA things to confirm thoughts, make guides, etc etc,
and had a few questions:

1. There is a hitlag modifier on a hitbox, how is the hitlag worked out for the move based on that value? (Similarly is there a known formula for shieldstun of a move based on the damage?)

2. Data irregularities:
a. Neutral Air: I know for fact that Marth's neutral air when the hitbox/animation comes back around the front (i.e. approximately frame 19) the tipper hit (not sure about non) has a LARGE increase of power. The difference is killing MK with no DI centre stage at 110% to around 85%. The PSA data shows no signs of this.
From notes I made a few billion years ago, the MPH terminal velocity at 300% on G&W was:
Marth: Forward Smash Tipper (15651mph)
Marth: Nair Tipper [sweet] (13951)
Marth: Bair Tipper (13677)
Marth: Nair Tipper [normal] (12650)
(extras for reference)
Where is this in his PSA file?

b. Up Smash. In the PSA file the maximum damage one hit can do is 17. I -know- through training mode that there is a hitbox that does 21% damage solely (through training mode stating only '1 hit'), and this hit also had cinematic hit lag. Where do I find things like this?

c. Trying to go through logically (linear path) through Marth's dancing blade, I couldn't find where each hit has cool down or not. Does anyone know where things like that would be?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Put simply, it doesn't matter how sure you are that PSA is wrong; it's either right or you have the wrong .pac. As for dancing blade, don't take my word for it, but I think that the action 114 calls a subroutine says to change action E/0 (so into fall or neutral, basically) when the animation ends. So basically the animation speed itself.

 

[[TSON]]

1. Not quite sure on the Brawl formula, so I'll wait for a coder to answer that.

2a. Terminal velocities are a calculation between the knockback and knockback growth. If you see an increase of growth on the new offensive collision that is spawned on frame 19ish, that would be it.

b: PSA's damage values are in hexadecimal. So 17 is 23. Chances are that a hitbox before that one is the 21% one.

c. Allow Interrupt is the IASA and where the Bit is set on dancing blade is when it can be interrupted into the next hit. The ending frame of the animation is not documented in PSA, so you'd have to refer to BrawlBox if you did not already have that information.

 

[Shaya]

I believe I got the full pac files off the same topic that was an introductory tutorial. Downloaded through meowmix's "folder" on media fire or something?

TheSilenceOfNoOne:

2a. There is no new offensive collision though. That's the thing...

b. I know it's in hexadecimal, don't worry. Yeah there's a 17 (11) damage hit. But in Brawl you can experience a 21 (15) damage hit that has cinematic hit lag. As none of the hits of upsmash in the pac I have cinematic hit lag (i.e. the second hitlag modifier is 60000 instead of 0), i'm quite confused. The confirmation of a hit doing 21% individually is in training mode, and at least such a hit that produces cinematic hit lag has also been confirmed (through the debug/pause code).

c. Okay so I'd have to go through brawlbox for it, thanks.

 

[shanus]

I believe I got the full pac files off the same topic that was an introductory tutorial. Downloaded through meowmix's "folder" on media fire or something?

TheSilenceOfNoOne:

2a. There is no new offensive collision though. That's the thing...

b. I know it's in hexadecimal, don't worry. Yeah there's a 17 (11) damage hit. But in Brawl you can experience a 21 (15) damage hit that has cinematic hit lag. As none of the hits of upsmash in the pac I have cinematic hit lag (i.e. the second hitlag modifier is 60000 instead of 0), i'm quite confused. The confirmation of a hit doing 21% individually is in training mode, and at least such a hit that produces cinematic hit lag has also been confirmed (through the debug/pause code).

c. Okay so I'd have to go through brawlbox for it, thanks.

you can have multiple hitboxes which actually stack damage in freak occasions. I know this was observed when GoG and leaf attempted to modify marth;s upsmash in making roy, they got weird additive effects between hitboxes. This is probably the case you are seeing. (I've only seen this happen on a few hitboxes in the game)


Regarding his nair, is there a difference of damage present during the timing of nair? Remember damage is intrinsically tied to KBG so even if it looks to be equivalent in power, it will be higher.

 

[[TSON]]

The very first sweetspot hitbox that is spawned has 1.5x hitlag. That would probably be the one you are referring to (The top hitbox).

As for the 21 damage, I have reason to strongly believe that due to the way that the training mode combo counter works, it does not pick up the 4% sourspot as part of the combo. That is the only logical way, and it's too convenient to be a coincidence that 4+17=21.

EDIT: ninja'd

 

[Shaya]

No it is still 12 damage.
And most vBrawl marth mains are well aware of how amazing Marth's nair is punishing spot dodges is because of the extra power it gains as the attack goes on. It's similar to Doc's nair in melee. And I don't believe theres damage stacking involved in it either.

Interesting about the up smash. The thing about this cinematic hit is that it has drastically reduced knockback base or growth (I'd say growth). I've hit people with it when a normal up smash would kill and it has had knockback angle similar to Toon Link's down smash at 0%. Oh and the difference of hitlag on this "one hit" than other hits are notable too. Ignoring the idea that damage may get stacked together, and hitlag may as well, but how does that make the move have cinematic hitlag or drastically different terminal velocity?

What I'm out to suggest though is that I believe there are extra areas of data that pertain to some of Marth's moves that aren't in the "base" animation listings.

 

[shanus]

No it is still 12 damage.
And most vBrawl marth mains are well aware of how amazing Marth's nair is punishing spot dodges is because of the extra power it gains as the attack goes on. It's similar to Doc's nair in melee. And I don't believe theres damage stacking involved in it either.

Interesting about the up smash. The thing about this cinematic hit is that it has drastically reduced knockback base or growth (I'd say growth). I've hit people with it when a normal up smash would kill and it has had knockback angle similar to Toon Link's down smash at 0%. Oh and the difference of hitlag on this "one hit" than other hits are notable too. Ignoring the idea that damage may get stacked together, and hitlag may as well, but how does that make the move have cinematic hitlag or drastically different terminal velocity?

What I'm out to suggest though is that I believe there are extra areas of data that pertain to some of Marth's moves that aren't in the "base" animation listings.

Thats because its probably stacking with the 4% damage hit, which might be listed as a later bone, and knock is getting overwritten by the KBG and damage of that hit.

Easy way to test is see if a 4 damage move with identical trajectory and KBG and BKB behaves similarly at identical percent

 

[shanus]

I just found some time to take a quick look at the codes, and its fairly obvious that upsmash does involve stacking. If you notice, 2 frames after the sweetspot (21) damage hit is out, they use 06030100 to delete the 4 damage hitboxes from the attack following the logical output of the attack.

Regarding nair and its various "launch speeds," I don't thikn its a solid measure whatsoever. What your probably observing is an effect of the bone movement over the course of the move. What's happening is the hitbox is the same, but the relative trajectory is not. As the blade becomes more angled, you might be in fact getting a lower launch angle giving the effect of higher peak launch due to less effects of gravity and giving the effect of more power.

I observed a similar phenomenon when altering pikachu's uair to have his reverse tail spike during his uair. If you set it to a traditional spike value, it actually hits upwards in a large range of motion during the rotation giving obvious variable launch speeds.

 

[Shaya]

So you're saying that moves that hit at specific angles produce different launch speeds based on the character's weight/gravity attributes?

As in a floaty character in this 'reverse spike' situation would go further than a non floaty character?
That in itself is quite amazing if it were to be correct.



And I could definitely see how Up Smash would have that effect of stacking damage to produce a 21% pure hit, only question is why that becomes cinematic DI. Coding clause maybe?

 

[shanus]

So you're saying that moves that hit at specific angles produce different launch speeds based on the character's weight/gravity attributes?

As in a floaty character in this 'reverse spike' situation would go further than a non floaty character?
That in itself is quite amazing if it were to be correct.



And I could definitely see how Up Smash would have that effect of stacking damage to produce a 21% pure hit, only question is why that becomes cinematic DI. Coding clause maybe?

Yes to the first stament. It's easiest to adjust this yourself and observe the angles say with a characters downthrow. You'll see for example, if you load up Pit in B+, then downthrow B+ falcon as compared with kirby and notice tremendous difference in the launch angles and most likely peak launch speed. Alter it again by a few degrees and you'll see again a large difference. This minor shift of angle is likely the cause of the observed strength in nair.

The 4 damage hitboxes have a 0 hitlag multiplier, it's probably tied into their unique flags. I suggest altering the flags on the 4 damage hitboxes and see if it does in fact modify the cinematic hitlag (which i believe will be the case).

 

[Shaya]

"cause of the observed strength in nair"

Don't get me wrong, there isn't just an observed strength, but as I noted a significant numerical increase in launch speed (end game stats).

It's weird though, that considering at least the animation of nair when it comes back around only has a slight angle difference. And as the difference in power is so significant...

 

[shanus]

"cause of the observed strength in nair"

Don't get me wrong, there isn't just an observed strength, but as I noted a significant numerical increase in launch speed (end game stats).

It's weird though, that considering at least the animation of nair when it comes back around only has a slight angle difference. And as the difference in power is so significant...

Yeah, but measure the difference say in B+ on falcon vs kirby. The disparity should be significant for launch speeds (large gravity and weight difference). Yet another reason why launch speed is an inaccurate form of measurement and should not be used as a questionable hidden data set of PSA.

 

[leafgreen386]

Looks like I need to update this thread again.

But for now...

Hello,

I consider myself to have reasonable expertise and knowledge of Marth in Brawl, and I recently thought I'd tap into the PSA things to confirm thoughts, make guides, etc etc,
and had a few questions:

1. There is a hitlag modifier on a hitbox, how is the hitlag worked out for the move based on that value? (Similarly is there a known formula for shieldstun of a move based on the damage?)

You'll have to ask magus how hitlag is calculated. I don't actually know. He had a great chart for it, though. Alternatively, you could just compare known advantages with what they should be using the shieldstun formula, with the difference being the result of the hitlag for that particular value. Most of marth's moves have their hitlag set to either 0.7, 1.25, or 1.5, so it shouldn't be too much extra work.

For shieldstun, the formula for vbrawl should be floor(damage/3) + 1. That was extrapolated from the formula found for brawl+, so it might not be correct, but... I'm pretty sure it's right. And if you're not familiar with it, the "floor" notation means to round down (for example, 4.0, 4.1, and 4.9 all become 4.0).

2. Data irregularities:
a. Neutral Air: I know for fact that Marth's neutral air when the hitbox/animation comes back around the front (i.e. approximately frame 19) the tipper hit (not sure about non) has a LARGE increase of power. The difference is killing MK with no DI centre stage at 110% to around 85%. The PSA data shows no signs of this.
From notes I made a few billion years ago, the MPH terminal velocity at 300% on G&W was:
Marth: Forward Smash Tipper (15651mph)
Marth: Nair Tipper [sweet] (13951)
Marth: Bair Tipper (13677)
Marth: Nair Tipper [normal] (12650)
(extras for reference)
Where is this in his PSA file?

It doesn't appear to exist. I think shanus has it right with it being based on the animation, though. When marth swings his sword back, the sword is at an angle above the horizontal, but when he swings it forward, it's below the horizontal. It might make sense for this to affect the angle of launch, but I don't get how it could affect the launch power of the move, which is something entirely separate. I think what might actually be happening is that the game considers the distance a bone has traveled from one frame to the next when calculating launch power, giving more power on frames that have traveled a greater distance. I have no idea how this would be applied, though. It doesn't really make much sense, either, but it's all we have for the time being.

I know for a fact that fighting gravity is not a reason for different launch speeds. I've tested launch speeds before under varying conditions and found that launch speeds are completely independent of gravity. As in... they remain exactly the same regardless of what gravity is acting on a character. This makes sense if you think about it; "launch speed" is a value that represents knockback before it's resolved into horizontal and vertical components, which is before the game would have considered gravity when calculating your position. Even if the changing position of a bone can create different angles of launch, the different angles themselves would not be what causes the change in power; it would have to be another related mechanic that does that.

b. Up Smash. In the PSA file the maximum damage one hit can do is 17. I -know- through training mode that there is a hitbox that does 21% damage solely (through training mode stating only '1 hit'), and this hit also had cinematic hit lag. Where do I find things like this?

If you'll notice, the IDs for the first three hitboxes are very unusual. Instead of being labeled 0, 1, and 2, they're instead labeled 100, 101, and 102, whereas the two 4% hitboxes are labeled normally, as 3 and 4. I think this is what allows hitboxes to combine, and is why there are both 21% and 18% hitboxes; it's a result of a 10X hitbox combining with a 00X hitbox. I don't know the exact mechanics for combining, but this seems to be the cause of it, at least.

 

[shanus]

My bad on the launch speed, it makes sense given the fact that your peak launch speed would be before gravity actually factors. However, did you test launch speed in relation to trajectory for identical powered moves? Just want to know.

 

[leafgreen386]

Yeah. And it's very weird. Moves with higher launch angles have a higher launch speed. According to Colin, characters with higher falling acceleration are affected more by this bonus, as if they were trying to compensate for gravity or something. Notably, since this ends up being a value that is added to the launch speed, the stronger a move is, the less affected it is by the angle (percentage-wise). Additionally, it appears this change in launch speed due to the angle is only applied after the tumble threshold (2500 launch speed in vbrawl, less in brawl+). Moves that launch below the horizontal actually have a negative value for this.

Some old data:

In vbrawl, using bowser's utilt vs another human controlled 0% bowser as the test subject:

vbrawl utilt: 100 degree angle, 2846 launch speed
test utilt: 50 degree angle (otherwise identical), 2797 launch speed
difference: 49 launch speed

Same thing, but against a 300% bowser:

vbrawl utilt: 100 degree angle, 11555 launch speed
test utilt: 50 degree angle, 11504 launch speed
difference: 51 launch speed

I don't know why the difference between the launch speeds is 2 points higher on the 300% test (technically 312%) than the 0% test (technically 12%), but it should be fairly clear that the differences are derived solely through the angle, rather than as a modifier to the rest of the knockback. This is why the huge differences seen in marth's nair cannot possibly be due to a difference in the launch angle; not only would the difference in angle be small, but no difference in angle can cause a variance of over one thousand.

Oh, and I just realized that I made a mistake in my last post. There's no way you could use the hitlag modifier data without knowing the original hitlag formula, due to hitlag being directly based on damage dealt. You're just gonna have to ask magus for the formula.

 

[Shaya]

So there's general agreement that there are connections between current bone angles and the angles a move sends you to determine launch speed...
Which is quite an amazing thing and I'd say is COMPLETELY UNKNOWN to the majority of just about everybody. This could actually be what defines "sweet spots" in some of brawl's moves naturally.

It would make some sense though, because for weird reasons, I found that when I travelled to the United States playing against others that Marth's fsmash was killing people untippered at a lot lower percents than I would normally consider because they'd always be hitting them firmly above Marth's head as the norm...

So yeah the difference in Marth's nair is EXTREME in comparison to Bowser's utilt.
I have two theories:

1. There are unknown flags/parameters that effect launch speed based on angle of hit (i.e. default would be like what 1%? while Marth's nair may have something like 20%?)
2. Code specific 'something' elsewhere...

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

How to make grabs that don't normally grab airborne opponents grab airborne opponents

Parameter 7 of a "catch collision", change it from 1 to 3.
Fixes Toon Link's catch collisions so that they can grab people in the air (e.g. off a stage, instead of having the grab hitbox fall through them).

1 = can only grab opponents on land
2 = can only grab airborne opponents (untested assumption)
3 = can grab opponents on land OR in air

 

[[TSON]]

^Amazing.

10win

 

[camelot]

Nice, so you could even make Melee-esque ranged grabs. Can only grab people on the ground with the ranged grab, but can grab from air or ground if they're close to you. (That's how it worked, right?)

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

Nice, so you could even make Melee-esque ranged grabs. Can only grab people on the ground with the ranged grab, but can grab from air or ground if they're close to you. (That's how it worked, right?)

That's how it already was in brawl

I made it so you can grab people from the air with the ranged grab.

 

[leafgreen386]

First update of the new year!

I see some nice progress has been made. I don't know how I missed AA's updated txts last time, when they were posted such a short time after Eldiran's.

So yeah the difference in Marth's nair is EXTREME in comparison to Bowser's utilt.
I have two theories:

1. There are unknown flags/parameters that effect launch speed based on angle of hit (i.e. default would be like what 1%? while Marth's nair may have something like 20%?)
2. Code specific 'something' elsewhere...

You might have been a little confused about the way I presented the data. The bowser utilt test was done by hitting with the same part of the hitbox all four times, just at different percents and with different angles for the hitbox. The bone was in approximately the same position each time, though (I can only say "approximately" since it seems likely that that's where the difference of 2 launch speed comes from). This proves that angle of launch does not cause a percentage variance at all, but it doesn't prove that angle of hit won't do that, and it especially doesn't prove that distance traveled between frames won't affect power.

I can devise a test of my bone movement theory fairly easily, so I'll prob do that sometime today and get back to you on that.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Hellooo...I have a small request

In Peachs Sub Routine 15E08 is the line 'If Compare: RA-Basic[2] <= -1'. What happens if you alter the number -1 to say 0 or 1 or 5238698641? I'm just wondering what happens if you alter the number whether it alters what she pulls up. If you've the spare time, could someone alter the number and see what happens ingame? I would do it myself but I haven't hacked my Wii or have any of the hacked stuff...my Wii is shared and my family won't let me :/

Many thanks in advance if anyone would be willing to have a look

 

[JoeGrandma]

I think that maybe the reason that Marth's nair is a lot stronger after a while is that, as his nair progresses, his sword bone rotates more and more (obviously), and the hitbox on the tip rotates as well.

For the same reason that the very VERY beginning of Marth and Ike's fsmashes hit you backwards, I think that the beginning of Marth's nair hits you with a bit of direction in the x-axis, y-axis, and z-axis.

Of course, you can't move in the z-axis, so that movement is not counted when calculating final knockback.

Near the end of the nair, his sword is pretty straight, so the knockback is more in the directions that count than the direction that doesn't. So it looks like more, both stat-wise and perception-wise.

Of course, this is just a hypothesis.

 

[DelxDoom]

BTW If you go into training mode
And use Marth's usmash
And get 21 damage

You'll see that there are two hits.
one does 17, one does 4

just sayin lol

 

[Shaya]

Delx,

I said this already,
but it is possible for the 21% hit to show up in training mode as 1 hit.

But I'm very happy with the theory that any two hitboxes that hit someone at the exact same frame will constitute as 'one hit'.

 

[[TSON]]

But that is not true, Shaya. Only SPECIFIC hitboxes with IDs of 100X will stack with regular hitboxes if they hit on the same frame. Otherwise, the latest hitbox that was spawned will be the only one that hits.

 

[camelot]

Made a small discovery with the event that determines if you can grab a ledge or not.

Event 0C090100, value of 0 = can't grab ledge, 1 = can only grab ledge if you're facing it, 2 = can grab ledge any time

 

[shanus]

Oh wow, thats awesome camelot. I always wondered why they would use 1 or 2.

Does anyone know what 0E0B0100 does? It's in bowsers upB which for the longest time I have been trying to give more control over, and I can't seem to figure out exactly what it does.

 

[ChuteTheMessenger]

Links to Amazing Ampharos' lists are broken, anyone have a mirror?

 

[[TSON]]

I'll look into 0E0B. But define "more control"?

 

[DelxDoom]

But that is not true, Shaya. Only SPECIFIC hitboxes with IDs of 100X will stack with regular hitboxes if they hit on the same frame. Otherwise, the latest hitbox that was spawned will be the only one that hits.

First few hitboxes of Marth's usmash do have ID's in the 100's... so I guess that's what you're getting at?

After taking a look at 0E0B, I am highly confused, haha.
Boolean and a Value of 1.
o.O

 

[[TSON]]

Yes.

Also WTF, why do does Ness/Lucas's PK Flash/Freeze have Enable/Disable Ledgegrab with no parameters (////)

 

[JoeGrandma]

I think If: 1F detects whether you are holding an item or not.

Not certain, though.

 

[Eldiran]

I think If: 1F detects whether you are holding an item or not.

Not certain, though.

I asked Dant, and he confirmed that.

I wonder if it can be given parameters to check which item is held...

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

I have been trying to give more control over

Have you tried using joystick inputs with add/subtract momentum?

Joy forwards (direction your character is facing)
If Compare: IC basic 243 < IC basic 77

Joy backwards (direction your character is NOT facing)
If Compare: IC basic 244 < IC basic 77

Joy UP
If Compare: IC basic 250 < IC basic 114

Joy DOWN
If Compare: IC basic 252 < IC basic 114

 

[shanus]

Have you tried using joystick inputs with add/subtract momentum?

Joy forwards (direction your character is facing)
If Compare: IC basic 243 < IC basic 77

Joy backwards (direction your character is NOT facing)
If Compare: IC basic 244 < IC basic 77

Joy UP
If Compare: IC basic 250 < IC basic 114

Joy DOWN
If Compare: IC basic 252 < IC basic 114

I didn't reengineer the momentum, no. I was attempting to learn how the game controls horizontal DI.

If I wanted to do that method, the best method would be:


Set Loop Infinite:
Set RA-Float XYZ = IC-Basic [1011] (243)
Set Momentum = 0;
Add momentum command: Horizontal = RA-Float XYZ, Vertical = 0;
Synch Timer: 1 Frame;
Loop Rest;
Execute Loop

 

[shanus]

Herein describes my future plans for getting zairs to work on walls. Eldiran, I might call on you here, and I think you'd like it anyway since you'd probably want it for Zero.

Anyways, documentation:

Method 1: Link's arrows can stick to any walls.
Examining his data for his arrows yields the following situation:
Change Subaction - Fly
Change Action(2) - ID=0x2, Requirement=Hit Wall
!Animation Command-00! 0D000200 - 0x4, @215C8
!Collision-01! 06010200 - 0x0, RA-Basic[0]

So, as expected, articles detect walls. Step 1 will to be editting his hookshot to detect a wall collision.

From there, in action 0x2 for his arrow:
Action 0x2
@216F0
Stick,
-----------|START|--------------------------
!Character Specific-0A! 0C0A0000
!Ground-0B! 080B0100 - 0xFF
Edge Sticky - 0x5
Change Subaction - Stick
!Animation Command-00! 0D000200 - 0x4, @21688
Synchronous Timer - Frames=1.00x
Terminate Collisions
----------------------------|END|-----------

So here is the juicy part. this tells an article how to stick to a wall. So what do we do with this?

use this exact same data, but make it use the subaction for the hookshot when it grabs the edge.

Now the hard part, we need to edit fighter.pac to make tethers not automatically go for edges AND how to make tethers behave 100% correctly on the walls. This part is the hairy part because I am not sure if the action for 7F is targeting the article, or the character for the parameter check.

However, in action 7F:
Instead of Change Action=80, Req=Unknown 271A; we can attempt to try req 0C. I doubt this will work, but it might be possible. Otherwise, we can attempt to set a bit for when the hookshot touches a wall and see if that works.

Additionally, we wall want to Nop; the Additional req: Bit is Set: Ra-Bit16

In action 82, we will want to add the following:
020A0100 0-11;
020A0100 0-A;
020A0100 0-12