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The Best Players.

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Nihonjin

Striving 4 Perfection
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Thought you were done with discussing the coaching thing in this thread
Didn't know you had some more bad perfect analogies to make.
Fixed.

I can't help but say something when people try to defend cheating.

Comparing Smash (american smash at least) to tests, chess, whats next, golf? Sports/activities that are and have been established in quiet environment where the competitors/test takers are meant to think and calculate every aspect of the choices they make is not a good analogy.
You completely missed my point. Obviously I wasn't comparing environments but rather that exams and competitions are meant to measure the players ability. Accepting help kind of defeats the purpose.

Btw, drivers exams aren't quiet nor do you have a lot of time to calculate "every aspect" of the choices you have to make.

But by your logic, If you forget what a stop sign means, just ask your examiner, right? I mean, it's not cheating because you already knew it anyway, you just forgot about it when it really mattered.


[Edit]

Dammit, how did I end up in this ******* debate again? For the love of my sweet free time lets drop it now. Actually, you do what you like but I'm done.
 

trahhSTEEZY

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Superwavedash: you're dumb and you should feel dumb.
i'm not supporting either side, but posts like this and the one below it are;

Stupid
Pointless
Annoying
Messages

it has no real value and only contributes to drama/negativity.

On topic, i get where you're going with the analogies amsah, but they really aren't fair comparisons. The only thing you could really relate this situation to is other video games that are more main stream with extremely legit rules.

Using driving, chess, or any other non video game examples just don't fit. Driving, exams, those kinda things involve laws and regulations, a bit stronger subject than video games. You don't have 50 guys screaming with hype behind you during a driving test, or exam. And in chess, I could see it being unfair to have coaching there, since someone could literally tell you where to go on the board and win the game for you. Someone in smash can't just throw his skill in words into the game.
 

Druggedfox

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I can't quite remember, but I saw either raynex or unknown post something about how one time he was playing against someone and this guy was telling raynex/unknown's opponent which way raynex/unknown was going to tech. Sounds like telling him the right moves to me.
 

trahhSTEEZY

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I can't quite remember, but I saw either raynex or unknown post something about how one time he was playing against someone and this guy was telling raynex/unknown's opponent which way raynex/unknown was going to tech. Sounds like telling him the right moves to me.
Oh cmon, that's such a specific situation which is actually pretty stupid, your saying the guy would get hits on them making them tech, and as theyre about to tech, the friend says whatever way and he follows up? that's pretty impressive and far fetched :X

like, that's the only 'somewhat' possible way to cheat with coaching in this game, techs, and that's only because your opponent's friend can read you like a book
 

Druggedfox

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I never said that's the sort of coaching I expect to happen. I was simply pointing out that "someone can literally point out where to go on the board and beat you". It's not quite to that degree, but I'm quite sure I've read a post from one of the two players saying exactly that.

What I just said above isn't the thing that's most wrong with coaching, I was just pointing out that in certain situations, it is possible.

This argument is dumb anyway, but there's not much more to say it seems.

I'll ask this:

So, who does everyone think the new generation of smashers are going to be? Either when the best ones nowadays retire, or maybe the new smashers will straight up take over their spots? Who are the kids with potential? =D
 

strawhats

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First off, I want to say that the way I look at Melee, the higher/more consistent you place, the more respect I have for your opinion/belief. If any of the top 10 players in the world tell me something, I'm much more likely to believe them than people below them skill wise, although of course I'm open to anything anyone has to say.

That being said, I'm far from the level that I want to be in regards to my skill, so although I feel I have a pretty good idea that I know what I'm talking about, I could be absolutely, completely wrong. Here goes haha.

1. Mango- This is just undisputed. Every time Mango touches his controller, people are amazed and inspired. His playstyle is the perfect combination of art (The when where and why's behind his decisions/executions) and science (Perfected technique behind his executions). He is constantly pushing the game to its highest levels that we can imagine at this point, with multiple characters. He has by far the best, most consistent tournament record out of any Melee player in history. Not to mention, it's the longest, and that's key.

If anyone wants a sliver of hope of going down in Melee history as the best player ever, they're going to have to win every tournament they enter with no to little signs of anyone coming close...for 3 years or longer. If 2012 rolls around and there's a new pro who looks to be better than Mango was (Is, if he's still playing) he's going to have to still be undisputedly the best by 2015-2016 at this point to go down as the best ever.

He's set a high bar for any aspiring "best" players, but at the same time I think we'd have it no other way. Ken set a high bar, but M2K topped it. M2K set a high bar, but Mango crushed it, and as such we were all amazed. If anyone ever does become better than Mango, it's going to be another repeat of awe and amazement, which I sincerely look forward to.

2. Hungrybox- Ah, admittedly, I don't watch that many of his vids. I should, I really should. I feel it should be unanimous that Hbox is the second best player in the world. Extremely consistent placings over everyone else below him, only losing to M2K semi-recently, and considering their tournament history together, that's impressive.

What impresses me so much about Hbox aside from his consistency and his inspiring attitude towards the game, is his rise to the top. I barely knew about him, only because of his videos vs Raynex from a georgia tournament I believe it was, a while ago. Hbox lost, and now he's the 2nd best player in the world. That's very impressive.

I watched his most recent matches vs PeePee and it seems he's gotten even better. Amazing, and his attitude towards the game is just amazing as well, rarely (if ever) bragging, setting up funds for players that people want to see play, dealing with the initial hating on his playstyle, almost never (again, if ever) johning, and travelling all over the place for tournaments. Haha, good job man if you read this.

3. Armada- Yeah, I think most people still don't want to believe it. I almost don't, but it would be unfair to deny the third place "Best Player in the World" spot to Armada. I don't think he's lost in Europe in years, he's never placed below top 5 here in America which is astounding.

Armada has a very murderous intent when he plays. He never skips a beat, and his punish game with Peach is so good it almost doesn't even make sense. If there were no videos of him losing, you'd look at him play and swear Peach has nearly no weaknesses, he covers them up so well and pushes her advantages so well that it makes me feel bad about playing Marth/Sheik/Fox, because I don't punish with them as hard as Armada does with Peach. (Yet, haha.)

It's too hard to say if Armada will become the best player in the world. I think he still has the motivation, but he's lost to Jiggs here time after time in America, and also Amsah's Sheik. I think this begs the question: Will Armada ever switch off Peach in order to hit his true potential? Or his his potential only realized because of the compatibility between him and his character? Questions I wish I had the answers to.

4-5. Amsah & M2K- Yeah, they're tied. It's too hard to tell who's better, and I almost want to put them both above Armada, but again that's unfair to Armada, who has proven to be better on so many occasions. I've watched both of these players play (youtube vids) so much I can almost watch their matches in my head haha.

M2K- M2K definitely has a better punish game than Amsah. That's not to say Amsah's weak when it comes to combos or edgeguards. No, not at all. But, you have to give this aspect of Smash to M2K. Just watch his matches, he gets tighter edgeguards and combos to death more than Amsah.

However, and I've only just begun to see him in this way, M2K does lack in the area of "yomi" or the ability to "read your opponent's mind." It's very hard to see, because he covers it up very well with his punishes, speed, and immense knowledge of the game and "situations." Also in addition to that, when I say "lacking" I mean in comparison to the other top 5 players. Watching M2K **** everyone else, it's clear that he out predicts them heavily, most of the time with exceptions here and there.

With the other top elite pros though, I think they have an edge in this department.

Another thing about M2K as well that most people, including me almost don't realize, is that he covers up his lack of prediction/toe to toe game through character strengths and weaknesses. An example would be him vs Kage. He rolls backwards so much because he knows Ganon really can't do much about it. It's smart, very smart, abusing his opponent's weaknesses. But, there's no prediction/mindgames there really, so when he has to play other players like Mango, Armada Hbox, it's harder for him to win.

That being said, M2K has created his own style of play which to this day is absolutely incredible to watch, and it almost pains me to put him at the #4 spot, because when you watch him play it almost feels like he should be 2.

Amsah- Hah, wow. What an awesome player, and for some reason still underrated. It's clear that Amsah is top 5. Not just clear, but crystal. I think the only reason people dispute this is because he lost to Lucky. Lucky's no joke at all, but I'm confident Amsah is better, and it shows...Placing 3rd at Pound 4 only to Mango and Hbox. Running through many of our top players. That's amazing.

Amsah's definitely has the edge on M2K in terms of prediction and overall "intelligence" I feel, although again it's hard to tell sometimes due to the above analysis.

Amsah plays heavily on prediction, and what's interesting is that it works well enough to the point where he is #4 in the world. (At least imo) That's also why he drops more edgeguards than M2K, because instead of covering options he's in your head, predicting where you're going to go and opting to cover that option as opposed to many.

The result is very unorthodox, unpredictable successes for Amsah. An example of this would be him vs Zhu on FoD, where Zhu was Foxfiring and Amsah ran away from it to sweetspot Bair it. It's like, how did he know? If Zhu did something safe like up b to the ledge, he'd have been safe.

But at the highest levels of play, I notice that knowledge of the game matters less, as well as what's generic and what's not. Why? Because all the top players know everything, they've been through every situation.

At this point, it's your mind vs your opponent's mind, and that's why Amsah succeeds at even the highest levels. He is a master of this dynamic, possibly "the master" aside from Mango. This is also why I feel Amsah out of any other top 5 player has the best chance of taking down Mango. Amsah plays that prediction/mind to mind game so well, and that's where it's at at that highest level. There's no "I'm just gonna practice tech skill," or, "How can I cover the most options in this situation?" That's what you need to beat everyone below the elite group of top 5 players.

Anyways, there is a disadvantage to Amsah's style of play. I feel he risks consistency. He is consistent don't get me wrong, very very consistent. But, compared to Armada and Mango and Hbox and even M2K to an extent, he's slightly less. His loss to Lucky is an example, and I don't think M2K would ever lose to lucky, obviously unless Lucky becomes insaneee (which I heard he is when he's playing his best). By trying to predict so much, you are vulnerable to losing to people you "shouldn't", and I put that in quotes because if you lose you deserve to unless it's like your controller or something, but you know what I mean when I say it.

Those are the best 5 at this point, I'm convinced. I think they represent the most elite group of Smashers ever in Melee history. Similar to Azen, Ken, M2K, KDJ, PC, but at this point in the metagame they have all pushed their characters and mental limits farther. I also think it's at this level of play where, in order to break into this group along with the above 5, there's a bit of a mystery as to what it is that is required to be this good.

When striving to improve, different people at different skill levels all analyze other players and try to figure out everything they can.

When trying to sort out the differences between the top 5 and everyone else, we can only make speculations about what separates them. We can try to analyze it, and perhaps we could break it down as scientifically as possible. I think though, that there's more to it. I don't think it's something that you can just really just "figure out." It's something abstract, or perhaps a combination of abstract concepts. Hah, who knows. It's fun for me to think about though.

6. PeePee- PeePee's too good. He's too consistent, has developed a unique and efficient style of play which is remarkable considering how many other Falcos there are out there. Just the fact that he was able to get to the level he's at currently without falling into the trap of trying to look like another top Falco is amazing.

His punish game is good enough I feel. When I say good enough, I mean there's other things he can and should be working on to try to be the next legend. And, he's doing it. I think PeePee is the unanimous choice for the next player to break into that "legend" category, and to many people, the choice for the next world's best player. Everyone sees it in him, and I see it too. It's clear, he has it in him.

Haha, I'm trying to think of something to say, but I can't think of anything atm. PeePee's next test will be Pound 5. He can win it all, and I genuinely believe that when I say it. But will he rise to that level is the question...And if not, when will it be? Hmmmm....

7. Axe- Axe is stupidly good. Pikachu/Falco, what an awesome combination, and a combination that's hard to counter as well. I don't feel like breaking down his intelligent/technically perfect playstyle, but there is one thing that I saw in Axe from the short time I played/chilled with him: His love for the game, and his near obsession. Yes, I use that word. Axe doesn't need to motivate himself to practice, I think he's just obsessed with being perfect, something I can relate to fully, although, he's much closer than I am to reaching that, haha. Idk, I could sit here and just talk about how **** he is all day, but I think the most significant thing is that he's never stopped improving, and he shows no signs of slowing down.

I saw Forward post that he thinks he's going to become the next best Falco. Rivalry between PeePee and Axe? Haha, I wouldn't be surprised to see those guys in the Grand Finals of a major tourney within the next few months-a year.

Below this is where it starts to get fuzzy for me, and even putting Axe up there is slightly fuzzy only due to the fact that we haven't seen him OOS enough.

Jman, Wobbles, Zhu, Lucky, SS all come to mind when thinking about who to put next. And even then, it's still fuzzy cuz there's other great players like Raynex, Tope, Shiz (Poor guy's starting to fall behind...Makes me so sad.) Lucien has gotten really good, Hax $ is ridiculous when he's playing his best, just gotta work on consistency, and so many others that I can't even think of.

But, the goal was to just break down the top and i did it so I'm done now haha. Once again and I stress this, I could be very wrong on everything.
can i just say how amazingly insightful and refreshing this post was...good **** JesiahTEG
 

HugS™

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Merkuri, MMA allows it, and they yell very specific advice mid fight.

The physical limitations of a ring vs a smash set up don't make a difference. The coaching is still the same, a player is being told what to do and reminded of what he is capable of.
 

JBM falcon08

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being capable of doing something is great, but your not an intelligent player if you can't remember your situations or realize what you NEED to do.

Its like a take home test or a test with a cheat sheet, when you have study materials everythings easy.

Coaching = less pressure on the player.
 

CloneHat

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There's a lot wrong with Smash spectating in general, like people being two inches away from your ear and screaming "Stack it up!"

Coaching is but another distraction to the players.
 

Iron Dragon

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Guys, I hate to make myself sound like a mod or some **** but if this thread is going to get off topic and just become about coaching....why not just make a separate thread in Melee Discussion about coaching and if it should be allowed or not, etc?
 

Teczer0

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If you're going to do it I'd rather see it in tournament discussions.

It applies as much to brawl as it does to melee.

But regardless, don't start an entire new discussion in here.

Try tourney discussion or melee disc at least.
 

Iron Dragon

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If you're going to do it I'd rather see it in tournament discussions.

It applies as much to brawl as it does to melee.

But regardless, don't start an entire new discussion in here.

Try tourney discussion or melee disc at least.
*glare*.....Why do you have to be so......
 

KirbyKaze

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To the coaching bit, since that's the only part of this topic that has interested me at all thus far:

It was Unknown vs Pest or something. Bam was watching the match. Bam and Pest are from the same region. So Bam was telling Pest in French which direction Unknown was going to tech. To my understanding, Pest had not really been hitting these apparently obvious techs until Bam told him explicitly which way he was going to go. Which was funny.

It was an interesting situation.

That one is interesting because there's a language barrier working against Unknown (since he doesn't know French beyond "Omelette au fromage". And even then he usually gets it wrong by saying "Omelette du fromage"*). He can't really discern what direction Bam is telling Pest without either picking out the word changes when Bam tells him (difficult, considering Bam could theoretically counter this unintentionally just by wording his sentences differently) or reading his mind (arguably more difficult, since Bam has Magneto's helmet).

Normally when coaching arises, the coached-against player can at least hear some of what the coach is saying, understand it, and adjust. But that one presents an interesting case where that sort of thing really isn't possible.

I've heard Cactuar openly state that at least one set between M2K and Chu was largely decided by him telling M2K how to beat Chu. Or at least I think it was Chu. You'd probably have to ask Cactuar since it was posted in the backroom and I'm not part of it anymore...

*I am aware it is from Dexter's lab. **** off.
 

Iron Dragon

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Micheal jordan was coached and he was the best....nuff said
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLL is this seriously your argument? gtfo out of here with that. wow. and especially for posting here even though THERE'S A THREAD FOR THAT DISCUSSION NOW.

Back to the topic though people: WHO DO YOU THINK ARE THE TOP 7(or 8) in the world?

I'm going to act like a mod because these kinds of topics ALWAYS wind up off-topic. So keep it ON-TOPIC PEOPLE. Discussions go well with stuff like this when people keep on-topic. We CAN be civilized. Seriously.
 

Wobbles

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PB&J: funny.

Seriously though, coaching mid-match is ****ing stupid. One of the main skills tested during a match is adaptation and pattern recognition. Figuring out how to beat your opponent and then executing it is the essence of play. Having somebody do half the work for you defeats the purpose. It turns it from a 1v1 into a 2v1.

"Get your own coach lol." That sure is great for the guy playing against the guy who's friends with Mango. Now it's 2v2 (or more depending on how many friends you brought with you) where the skill of your coach can be a determining factor. Why even call it singles at that point?

In between rounds I'm fine with as long as the coach just keeps his mouth shut during the actual round. The player still has to execute and there's still room for adaptation and knowledge testing. Having somebody say things like, "recover high, he's trying to bait you to go low," can completely transform a situation. **** coaching.
 

Pi

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LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLL is this seriously your argument? gtfo out of here with that. wow. and especially for posting here even though THERE'S A THREAD FOR THAT DISCUSSION NOW.

Back to the topic though people: WHO DO YOU THINK ARE THE TOP 7(or 8) in the world?

I'm going to act like a mod because these kinds of topics ALWAYS wind up off-topic. So keep it that way. Discussions go well with stuff like this when people keep on-topic :)
funny part is it's people like you who end up becoming mods.

PB&J: funny.

Seriously though, coaching mid-match is ****ing stupid. One of the main skills tested during a match is adaptation and pattern recognition. Figuring out how to beat your opponent and then executing it is the essence of play. Having somebody do half the work for you defeats the purpose. It turns it from a 1v1 into a 2v1.

"Get your own coach lol." That sure is great for the guy playing against the guy who's friends with Mango. Now it's 2v2 (or more depending on how many friends you brought with you) where the skill of your coach can be a determining factor. Why even call it singles at that point?

In between rounds I'm fine with as long as the coach just keeps his mouth shut during the actual round. The player still has to execute and there's still room for adaptation and knowledge testing. Having somebody say things like, "recover high, he's trying to bait you to go low," can completely transform a situation. **** coaching.
u mad cause all your coach would be saying to you is 'grab him then wobble him'
 

Beat!

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No, I was just wondering why you had to say that stuff in your last post. It's not like they were valid arguments. My statement had nothing to do with the thread you posted it in.
 

Pi

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No, I was just wondering why you had to say that stuff in your last post. It's not like they were valid arguments. My statement had nothing to do with the thread you posted it in.
They were not valid arguments, nor did I run out, I moved to the other thread.
 

forward

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I would like coaching to be allowed in tournaments. From a spectators P.O.V. it would make the matches more entertaining because we'd see players adapting to strategies quicker and mixing up their play at what could be the highest level possible. I think that by banning coaching we are limiting the potential of this game.

Having a better coach may be an advantage but I don't think that any sort of testing has been done to say who the best coaches are or what makes the best coaches the best. Cactuar is not the best singles player but he is good and his coaching was good enough to help M2K win. I don't think anyone can say for certain that between two players who play 1v1 and one of them wins consistently over the other that that person would be a better coach than the other.

Coaching, as far as I know, has never been given a fair chance in tournament. It's unwise to ban something that has never been tested or used in a legitimate fashion. All items and counter-pick stages that are banned were tested under tournament play and it was afterwards that it was decided unsuitable for tournaments. There is no reason that coaching should not be given the same chance.

It would also be fun to explore the skill and depth required to be a good coach. It is a fair assumption to say that some coaches would be better than others and to become a better coach one must invest time and effort into improving in that area. The essence of competition is to push humans to their maximum potential, by banning coaching our potential is limited and is thus counter-productive to the spirit of competition.
 

Iron Dragon

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I would like coaching to be allowed in tournaments. From a spectators P.O.V. it would make the matches more entertaining because we'd see players adapting to strategies quicker and mixing up their play at what could be the highest level possible. I think that by banning coaching we are limiting the potential of this game.

Having a better coach may be an advantage but I don't think that any sort of testing has been done to say who the best coaches are or what makes the best coaches the best. Cactuar is not the best singles player but he is good and his coaching was good enough to help M2K win. I don't think anyone can say for certain that between two players who play 1v1 and one of them wins consistently over the other that that person would be a better coach than the other.

Coaching, as far as I know, has never been given a fair chance in tournament. It's unwise to ban something that has never been tested or used in a legitimate fashion. All items and counter-pick stages that are banned were tested under tournament play and it was afterwards that it was decided unsuitable for tournaments. There is no reason that coaching should not be given the same chance.

It would also be fun to explore the skill and depth required to be a good coach. It is a fair assumption to say that some coaches would be better than others and to become a better coach one must invest time and effort into improving in that area. The essence of competition is to push humans to their maximum potential, by banning coaching our potential is limited and is thus counter-productive to the spirit of competition.
Don't post this here now :p

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=291203
 
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