The B.C. Brawl Power Ranking [Updated Ranking! Winter 2012-2013 Season (MK Legal)]

[Grimice]

I'm in no way saying its easy, but the past PR's have had some mistakes made, I was even told by some panelists they didnt like how it was done. All i was asking is where those mistakes changed and would the new PR have those changes implimented. As to the "I know i havent been to the last pheonix" i was addressing that i dont know how the past tourney's went, who placed what, and not all the islander, Excluding myself since i did retire for a period of time, could not make it to some tourneys. Even tho they are old, there was no tourneys during the summer, and the community was shut down for a while so peoples past achievments shouldnt be shut out. If you only look at recient achievements there will be flaws for example. If you have 10 tourneys and only use the two most recent tourneys, your data for the PR would not be completly accurate, maybe someone did fairly well for 3 tourneys but the past two they slipped up and didn't perform aswell... or they missed one. That was all i was asking.

 

[~Firefly~]

I'm in no way saying its easy, but the past PR's have had some mistakes made, I was even told by some panelists they didnt like how it was done. All i was asking is where those mistakes changed and would the new PR have those changes implimented. As to the "I know i havent been to the last pheonix" i was addressing that i dont know how the past tourney's went, who placed what, and not all the islander, Excluding myself since i did retire for a period of time, could not make it to some tourneys. Even tho they are old, there was no tourneys during the summer, and the community was shut down for a while so peoples past achievments shouldnt be shut out. If you only look at recient achievements there will be flaws for example. If you have 10 tourneys and only use the two most recent tourneys, your data for the PR would not be completly accurate, maybe someone did fairly well for 3 tourneys but the past two they slipped up and didn't perform aswell... or they missed one. That was all i was asking.

If there have been mistakes made on previous lists, I want to fix them...but I am not convinced that there is anything specific that was handled poorly. The only suggestions I've seen so far have either involved making the lists more subjective (such as the MM issue, which I explained a few posts above), are not actually true (such as claims that people get inflated positions when they get easy brackets, which is false), or are completely non-specific (i.e. "make it less bad next time"). The latter especially bugs me simply because it doesn't help at all; it doesn't even really encourage discussion about the methods we use. >.>

I agree that having more data > having less data, but we have to draw the line somewhere. Why should we use placements from tournaments that happened more than half a year ago to consider the placements for the current PR? 7 months is a long time; some people stop attending tournaments while others join the community; some people hit plateaus, while others improve dramatically. The list of today's tournament threats is not the same as the list of people to watch for back in April, and the point of updating the PR in the first place is to keep it current with what the recent results tell us. If a player can't perform at a high level (relative to BC's community at least, LOL) now, they should not be recognized as such just because they were good 7 months ago.

 

[SKidd]

om nom nom nom

 

[Grimice]

If there have been mistakes made on previous lists, I want to fix them...but I am not convinced that there is anything specific that was handled poorly. The only suggestions I've seen so far have either involved making the lists more subjective (such as the MM issue, which I explained a few posts above), are not actually true (such as claims that people get inflated positions when they get easy brackets, which is false), or are completely non-specific (i.e. "make it less bad next time"). The latter especially bugs me simply because it doesn't help at all; it doesn't even really encourage discussion about the methods we use. >.>

I agree that having more data > having less data, but we have to draw the line somewhere. Why should we use placements from tournaments that happened more than half a year ago to consider the placements for the current PR? 7 months is a long time; some people stop attending tournaments while others join the community; some people hit plateaus, while others improve dramatically. The list of today's tournament threats is not the same as the list of people to watch for back in April, and the point of updating the PR in the first place is to keep it current with what the recent results tell us. If a player can't perform at a high level (relative to BC's community at least, LOL) now, they should not be recognized as such just because they were good 7 months ago.

You make some good points, and dont think I'm saying you guy's do a terrible job, you guys have done very well, and I'm glad you will listen and try to improve things and take advice. What most PR's do in the states is they take the last 10 tournaments, i know we dont have that many tourney's yet but thats just how some of the states do it that i talked to, like michigan, NJ/NY for some examples, and i think thats a good system, you get enough data, and recent enough you can judge improvment and talent over a decent amount of time, and enough tournies. Also just from what I heard, excuses shouldn't be allowed, like breez being drunk at a tourney, a tourney should be considered a tourney and if someone performs poorly because of there own actions, it should be taken into the data. its your choice to do something at a tourney, and your choice how well you perform and if you have a bad day there shouldnt be allowed "mulligans" for lack of a better term.

 

[bundtcake]

I'm in no way saying its easy, but the past PR's have had some mistakes made, I was even told by some panelists they didnt like how it was done. All i was asking is where those mistakes changed and would the new PR have those changes implimented. As to the "I know i havent been to the last pheonix" i was addressing that i dont know how the past tourney's went, who placed what, and not all the islander, Excluding myself since i did retire for a period of time, could not make it to some tourneys. Even tho they are old, there was no tourneys during the summer, and the community was shut down for a while so peoples past achievments shouldnt be shut out. If you only look at recient achievements there will be flaws for example. If you have 10 tourneys and only use the two most recent tourneys, your data for the PR would not be completly accurate, maybe someone did fairly well for 3 tourneys but the past two they slipped up and didn't perform aswell... or they missed one. That was all i was asking.

I was even told by some panelists they didnt like how it was done.

some panelists

read: blue yoshi

Who hasn't really given us any nice constructive criticism yet, and also didn't really complain too much about it until quite a while after it was already made. :<

Everyone keeps saying "let's just get the mistakes fixed this time" but like Jake said we're not really aware of said mistakes that need to be fixed, only a few things have been pointed out and we've refuted them all so far.

You make some good points, and dont think I'm saying you guy's do a terrible job, you guys have done very well, and I'm glad you will listen and try to improve things and take advice. What most PR's do in the states is they take the last 10 tournaments, i know we dont have that many tourney's yet but thats just how some of the states do it that i talked to, like michigan, NJ/NY for some examples, and i think thats a good system, you get enough data, and recent enough you can judge improvment and talent over a decent amount of time, and enough tournies. Also just from what I heard, excuses shouldn't be allowed, like breez being drunk at a tourney, a tourney should be considered a tourney and if someone performs poorly because of there own actions, it should be taken into the data. its your choice to do something at a tourney, and your choice how well you perform and if you have a bad day there shouldnt be allowed "mulligans" for lack of a better term.

Keeping track of 10 tournaments is way too much, sorry, especially for a community that's developing as fast as we are. :<

And Breez getting 9th at a tourney that he was drunk for is being taken into consideration. That's pretty much all I can say because we're still in the process of debating exactly where he'd be placed, so there's not really any way I can say how much it affects his ranking since I don't know that yet either. <_<

 

[~Firefly~]

The thing about communities like NY/NJ ranking off the last 10 tournaments is that they pretty much have tournaments every weekend. 10 tournaments for them is probably around 3 months, but for us, it's about a year. That's the key difference.

I also agree 100% with what you said about all performances mattering equally even if people have excuses for doing poorly. I think that trying to compensate for things like that puts us on a fast track to making biased decisions, and it's more fair to everybody if we just look at the wins/losses and avoid looking too much into why each set happened the way it did. Getting everybody on the same page on this issue is one of the things that's been delaying the update; we want to make sure all our panelists are okay with the list before it's released.

 

[Sion]

Looks like some good stuff is going on in this thread. Haven't read through a lot of the text, though I've read through some of it.

A couple obvious things I want to note here:

1. Bias shouldn't be much of an issue. There are several panelists for a reason, so you guys shouldn't really worry about it too much.
2. It's good of you guys to just look at the wins/losses. Just be sure to be smart about it (I'm sure you guys are, though). Also, I hope you guys are noting who lost to who and who won against who.
3. For a small, but rising community like this, I'd scope out the last several tournaments, maybe around 2-4, and update accordingly. Keeping track of anymore makes it too statistical and really defeats the purpose of panelists IMO. This is just a general suggestion though. I don't really know how you guys actually go about updating this.
4. Plain and simple, the PR is an ego list. **** drama, and **** trash talk. Have an argument about why you should be higher than someone? Win next time.
5. Don't even worry about delays with updates. Updates will happen eventually. At times our Melee PR has walked into walls without updates because we can't come up with a solid, agreeable list.

#4 is a bit blunt, but that's how i really feel tbh.

I'm pretty sure I left some stuff out, but whatever. I'm kinda tired anyways.
Anyways, keep up the good work, guys.

 

[Grimice]

I hope my posts haven't brought bad intention in or anger, just offering ideas, and yes the way i started this convo wasn't the right way to go about it and I'll admit that, things look good guy's and like Sion said some good **** going on in this thread and this community.

looking forward to seeing ya'll at P5 =D

 

[Captain L]

are we going to get a cool PR image and a good write-up for each person and why they were placed where?

 

[_GrapE_]

Is this to your liking, Landon?

 

[Captain L]

Couldn't have asked for more.
I laughed for about a minute.

 

[SKidd]

Landon's PR image is cuter than him.

 

[bundtcake]

oh hey there

 

[~Firefly~]

Looks like some good stuff is going on in this thread. Haven't read through a lot of the text, though I've read through some of it.

A couple obvious things I want to note here:

1. Bias shouldn't be much of an issue. There are several panelists for a reason, so you guys shouldn't really worry about it too much.

That's the hope. We've run into some problems this time though, caused by a problem area of the PR involving almost the entire panel...

2. It's good of you guys to just look at the wins/losses. Just be sure to be smart about it (I'm sure you guys are, though). Also, I hope you guys are noting who lost to who and who won against who.

I think your last sentence there is kind of a given, TBH. =P Looking at who beat who and who lost to who is synonymous to the concept of looking at wins/losses IMO.

3. For a small, but rising community like this, I'd scope out the last several tournaments, maybe around 2-4, and update accordingly. Keeping track of anymore makes it too statistical and really defeats the purpose of panelists IMO. This is just a general suggestion though. I don't really know how you guys actually go about updating this.

Agreed. In short, we look at the brackets, look for players with good wins, and compare their wins/losses/overall consistency with each other to get a good idea of where they belong. If a group of players is really close together, we take a closer look at their wins and losses and try and make a decision based off that.

4. Plain and simple, the PR is an ego list. **** drama, and **** trash talk. Have an argument about why you should be higher than someone? Win next time.

Yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

5. Don't even worry about delays with updates. Updates will happen eventually. At times our Melee PR has walked into walls without updates because we can't come up with a solid, agreeable list.

I hope the rest of the community sees it like this, because this is going pretty slowly. :x

#4 is a bit blunt, but that's how i really feel tbh.

I'm pretty sure I left some stuff out, but whatever. I'm kinda tired anyways.
Anyways, keep up the good work, guys.

Responses in Orange. Thanks for the input. =]

are we going to get a cool PR image and a good write-up for each person and why they were placed where?

Brian has something good in the works for the image. I think you'll like it. =3 *lolninja* And yes, we will try and get a good write-up going when the list does finally go up...which may be after the next monthly, at this rate. -.-

Is this to your liking, Landon?

XD

 

[Sion]

I'll synonymous your face, Jake

jk lool

I meant something a bit different, but I'm too lazy to explain it right now.

That's the hope. We've run into some problems this time though, caused by a problem area of the PR involving almost the entire panel...

Yeah, that's a tough one. Hopefully Blue Yoshi (since he's on the lower end of the PR ) can give you guys some useful insight on the problem. Sometimes getting opinions from outside sources help too, like the lower end of the PR. I don't know how much you guys lurk the forums, though =\

 

[Karupin]

Is this to your liking, Landon?

you sir win at life
i cant stop laughing

hahaha

 

[Captain L]

Yeah, that's a tough one. Hopefully Blue Yoshi (since he's on the lower end of the PR ) can give you guys some useful insight on the problem. Sometimes getting opinions from outside sources help too, like the lower end of the PR. I don't know how much you guys lurk the forums, though =\

Judging by Blue Yoshi's two most recent tournament results, he's right in that problem area.

 

[Tin Man]

Still waiting >_<

 

[Captain L]

Tin man is still waiting.

 

[SKidd]

Yes, bump.



We gotta get it together.


No more "After next tourney!" ****, that was 2 tourneys ago.

Clouderz moves down, Firefly moves up, Bundtcake moves up (to 1st), and a few other things.

 

[Captain L]

That was harsh skidd.
I was just making a statement.

Also, people coming to phoenix 5 who don't know us might want to have an accurate PR.

 

[Blunted_object10]

Skidd for president!

 

[~Firefly~]

As much as I hate how long this has been delayed, I'm not that worried about it right at this moment. lolchristmas

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Yeah, although for the past month minus the last week there were "dumbish" johnz, at the moment, Christmas Johnz are taking place. Once we pass through Christmas and get bored of playing with our toy Tonka Trucks we got for Christmas, hopefully we'll get together and finish this.

 

[breez]

I'm pretty sure we actually finished the PR discussion last night. Should be up soon!

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Yeah, we finally finished it. Everyone finally all sat down at the same time, and we all got it done.

 

[~Firefly~]

Finally updated! Check it out. =3 We'll have an image to go with that in a few days.

 

[Sion]

first

grats bundt

 

[~Firefly~]

six hundred twenty eighth

grats bundt

Fixed for accuracy.

 

[bundtcake]

We'll have an image to go with that in a few days.

*possibly* in a few days.

first

grats bundt

tx dude <3


and yaaaay new pr, let's all watch it get crushed to tiny theoretical pieces at the next tourney!

 

[Asa]

robert almost got +9

 

[SKidd]

I plan to money match a few of you.


Defender, Karupin, few others

 

[Captain L]

i did gud


Nice work Brian

 

[breez]

Yay for the new PR!

Hope to own some souls and change it up a bit after next tourny

 

[SKidd]

i did gud


Nice work Brian

I want to speak to you




get on msn or something

 

[Karupin]

I plan to money match a few of you.


Defender, Karupin, few others

good, i need d3 practice
Just kidding, or am I?

I don't feel I should be that low but I am looking forward to proving it in the next tourneys to come.
I can't wait for the PR image though :D

EDIT: skidd, your avatar pic is Misaki from Kaicho wa Maid-sama! isnt it?

 

[Blue Yoshi]

first

grats bundt

six hundred twenty eighth

grats bundt

Fixed for accuracy.

Technically, his post is the six hundred twenty seventh response to the OP. The person who legitimately says "FIRST!" is the first person to respond, but actually has post number two. So you are both wrong!!!

Re-fixed for true accuracy.

robert almost got +9

I know... however, if I get 1st in the next PR, then I would have gotten +8, then +9 as of the last update, and an 8 to 9 combo is LEGENDARY!!! (freeze to 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999)

Anyways, I'm happy we finally finished it... and can't wait for it to be completely destroyed Phoenix 5

 

[Karupin]

Technically, his post is the six hundred twenty seventh response to the OP. The person who legitimately says "FIRST!" is the first person to respond, but actually has post number two. So you are both wrong!!!

Re-fixed for true accuracy.



I know... however, if I get 1st in the next PR, then I would have gotten +8, then +9 as of the last update, and an 8 to 9 combo is LEGENDARY!!! (freeze to 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999)

Anyways, I'm happy we finally finished it... and can't wait for it to be completely destroyed Phoenix 5

if you get first you can drop down to 10 and get your solo 9 there ;D

 

[Blue Yoshi]

if you get first you can drop down to 10 and get your solo 9 there ;D

But that's 9 the wrong way... as if someone hit me with the 9

 

[Karupin]

But that's 9 the wrong way... as if someone hit me with the 9

Good, that way you'll learn and maybe stop 9ing your teammate in doubles ;D