mood4food77
Smash Hero
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thank you big rick
now watch as i get flamed
now watch as i get flamed
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The 2006-2008 Tier list
- Thread starter Mic_128
- Start date
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BigRick
Smash Master
Well I don't see what there could be to flame about this list.
There's a few placements within specific tiers that I personally don't agree with, like ICs over Falcon/Peach and Ness under G&W. But other than that, the list is pretty solid.
More tiers can only add more precision to a list, and show how even some characters are... plenty of other games have tier lists with like 6-7 tiers, and some of them use grades (A+, A, B) or numbers (1, 2, 3) instead of terms like top, high and middle to rank their tiers.
There's a few placements within specific tiers that I personally don't agree with, like ICs over Falcon/Peach and Ness under G&W. But other than that, the list is pretty solid.
More tiers can only add more precision to a list, and show how even some characters are... plenty of other games have tier lists with like 6-7 tiers, and some of them use grades (A+, A, B) or numbers (1, 2, 3) instead of terms like top, high and middle to rank their tiers.
mood4food77
Smash Hero
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ICs have have 3 bad match-ups and are considered to be counterpicks against falco and sheik, falcon and peach get beat by sheik, falcon gets beat by peach
they've also (as i feel lately) done better than falcon and peach in tournaments, as well as falcon doing better than peach
g&w does so much better against the top characters than ness does
they've also (as i feel lately) done better than falcon and peach in tournaments, as well as falcon doing better than peach
g&w does so much better against the top characters than ness does
I just thought i would point out the bad matchups for the top 4:
Fox: Falco(a 60-40 in falco favor) and Marth (a 55-45 in Marths favor)
Marth: Sheik(a 60-40 in sheik favor) and Falcon(a 55-45 in falcons favor)
Falco: Peach(a 60-40 in peachs favor)
Sheik: Ic(a 60-40 in Ics favor) Falco( a 55-45 in Falcos favor)
Thats about 100% correct if the players are at the some skill!
Redragon
Fox: Falco(a 60-40 in falco favor) and Marth (a 55-45 in Marths favor)
Marth: Sheik(a 60-40 in sheik favor) and Falcon(a 55-45 in falcons favor)
Falco: Peach(a 60-40 in peachs favor)
Sheik: Ic(a 60-40 in Ics favor) Falco( a 55-45 in Falcos favor)
Thats about 100% correct if the players are at the some skill!
Redragon
BigRick
Smash Master
One thing about ICs is that I don't know about the lesser IC players, since they're less played than the other characters... I only hear about those that do very well (Chu, Wobbles) and fairly well (Trail, Meep).
You might be right then cause if the IC player pool is much more smaller than other characters' player pool... then great individual performances should account for more than usual
Hmm I don't agree with stuff in there... like Marth and Fox should be even and Fox is a lil bit better against Marth than Falco.
You don't even point out that Fox is a bad matchup for Sheik, worse than Falco IMO.
Thing about Falco is that his dominance has been reduced slightly because ppl are much more accustomed to SHL now. Many players learned to powershield and found other ways around it. His approach is still the best but it's not godlike anymore.
Hmm I don't agree with stuff in there... like Marth and Fox should be even and Fox is a lil bit better against Marth than Falco.
Nope, tis common knowledge that Marth has a slight advantage against Fox....
All Fox's weakness's can be used by Marth(Chaingrab, combos, edge guards, range, etc...
You don't even point out that Fox is a bad matchup for Sheik, worse than Falco IMO.
Its not worse, but i did forget!!! My bad! I will edit it maybe...
Thing about Falco is that his dominance has been reduced slightly because ppl are much more accustomed to SHL now. Many players learned to powershield and found other ways around it. His approach is still the best but it's not godlike anymore.
This is true, but he is still top 4 in the game!
Redragon
Nope, tis common knowledge that Marth has a slight advantage against Fox....
All Fox's weakness's can be used by Marth(Chaingrab, combos, edge guards, range, etc...
You don't even point out that Fox is a bad matchup for Sheik, worse than Falco IMO.
Its not worse, but i did forget!!! My bad! I will edit it maybe...
Thing about Falco is that his dominance has been reduced slightly because ppl are much more accustomed to SHL now. Many players learned to powershield and found other ways around it. His approach is still the best but it's not godlike anymore.
This is true, but he is still top 4 in the game!
Redragon
BigRick
Smash Master
okay, you say that Falco is in the top 4... but we never said otherwise
on Marth/Fox: it's simply a two-way **** matchup... Marth has crazy range, but it's not a huge problem for Fox/Falcon cause of their speed + aerial mobility
Funny thing is that you say Falcon > Marth but not Fox > Marth... that's like contradicting yourself. Both Falcon and Fox can combo Marth into kill moves and both of them can be CG/gimped/gayed/etc. Falcon is heavier than Fox and has a lil bit more combo ability but Fox can gimp Marth plus he can laser spam camp.
and If you wanna argue about specific character matchups, then you should do it in the matchup chart thread instead
Micheloxx
Smash Ace
sint the same list as the last year?
I, t0mmy, agree with REDRAGON.
Incidentally, why would someone say there are 4 Bowser/Pichu/Kirby pros? There are ZERO Pichu pros. Me, KDJ, and Chu are as close as you can get. I don't play much outside my own region so I don't participate in pro circuits, Chu doesn't really play Pichu, and KDJ plays him in low-tier. But just including all those people, where's this mysterious fourth pro? NGCXX? He lives in Europe, he can't attend pro league here in america.
As for Kirby, ask t1mmy about that, but I don't know any pros who use Kirby either.
Ask Gimpy or Arash about Bowser pros.
As for who's got a better matchup, me and my brother are having a big Kirby vs Pichu matchup Money Match for $100 at the end of the month. May the best worst character win.
BOTTOM TIER
Mewtwo
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
mood4food77
Smash Hero
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look at the top 4 compared to teh bottom 4
bowser does the best out of the bottom 4 agaisnt both falco and fos
kirby does the best against sheik and marth
pichu does better against fox, falco, and marth than mewtwo does but doesn't do as good as bowser or kirby do
bowser does the best out of the bottom 4 agaisnt both falco and fos
kirby does the best against sheik and marth
pichu does better against fox, falco, and marth than mewtwo does but doesn't do as good as bowser or kirby do
BigRick
Smash Master
I don't really care about bottom tier, cause all these chars suck.
But I'll just say that KrazyKirbyKid came very close to top4 at EvoSouth.
I think he got 5 or 6th using Kirby.
Videos of his performance were supposed to be released, but they got burned by the Tier Nazis.
But I'll just say that KrazyKirbyKid came very close to top4 at EvoSouth.
I think he got 5 or 6th using Kirby.
Videos of his performance were supposed to be released, but they got burned by the Tier Nazis.
C 3
Smash Ace
IMO, you can't make a proper tier list in SSBM because the top 4 or 5 characters are BROKEN. They make almost any opponent look bad. I'm sure a lot of us have had experiences where we have faced terrible players, but they're character compansates for their lack of skill. The tier does depend on the tournament results, but when people jump on the broken character wagon and abuse their character's moves, of course the tournament results will more or less be the same every time. There are tons of players that main characters outside of the broken list that are amazing (Isai, Ka Master, Wes/Hugs, etc.) but once you put most of them against people who abuse the broken characters, all of a sudden these guys don't look so good anymore.
The top 4 or 5 characters should have their own broken tier, and then start the tier list after that.
Better yet, I know this will be impossible, but IMO they should be banned or used in their own seperate tournaments. In Street FIgter 3 or Capcom vs. SNK 2, certain characters are banned because they're clearly broken. In Street Fighter, Gill is banned from tournaments for the obvious reason..... he's too good. Shin Akuma, Blood Iori, Evil Ryu, etc. are banned in Capcom vs. SNK 2 for the same. Yet, we are all aware that the top 4 or 5 are broken, YET WE STILL ALLOW THEM. I find that to be a bit ridiculous.
The top 4 or 5 characters should have their own broken tier, and then start the tier list after that.
Better yet, I know this will be impossible, but IMO they should be banned or used in their own seperate tournaments. In Street FIgter 3 or Capcom vs. SNK 2, certain characters are banned because they're clearly broken. In Street Fighter, Gill is banned from tournaments for the obvious reason..... he's too good. Shin Akuma, Blood Iori, Evil Ryu, etc. are banned in Capcom vs. SNK 2 for the same. Yet, we are all aware that the top 4 or 5 are broken, YET WE STILL ALLOW THEM. I find that to be a bit ridiculous.
BigRick
Smash Master
baheffron
Smash Apprentice
I think Marth should DEFINITElY be moved above Sheik, and maybe even above the space animals... I don't see why he isn't the best character, with perfect spacing he is practically invincible.
And even though fox/falco can just get passed his range b/c of their speed, Marth can just chainthrow/ up tilt combo to fsmash until they are dead.
I also agree that ICs should be higher, just look at Chu Dat .... in just about any of his matches.
And even though fox/falco can just get passed his range b/c of their speed, Marth can just chainthrow/ up tilt combo to fsmash until they are dead.
I also agree that ICs should be higher, just look at Chu Dat .... in just about any of his matches.
Jabroni
Smash Cadet
I dont believe in tiers.
Falco&Victory
Smash Champion
Lol at Jabroni.
As a Falco player I may be bias, but I believe he is right where he deserves to be. In tournies he generally places higher than Marths or Sheiks. He requires more skill to use than either Sheik or Marth at a high level, and has the game's best approach. Yes, Marth has a great edge-guard, but I find that it's really easy to edge-tech his f-smash and his dtilit really isn't strong enough to KO anyone.
The fact that Falco is higher than Sheik or Marth doesn't mean he is a lot better, it just means that he usually does better in tournaments.
As a Falco player I may be bias, but I believe he is right where he deserves to be. In tournies he generally places higher than Marths or Sheiks. He requires more skill to use than either Sheik or Marth at a high level, and has the game's best approach. Yes, Marth has a great edge-guard, but I find that it's really easy to edge-tech his f-smash and his dtilit really isn't strong enough to KO anyone.
The fact that Falco is higher than Sheik or Marth doesn't mean he is a lot better, it just means that he usually does better in tournaments.
C 3
Smash Ace
Akuma is NOT banned in SF3 tournaments, or Capcom vs. SNK 2 tournaments. B. Iori and E.ryu are both playable in Capcom vs. SNK. I also believe that I, along with others, including pros, feel that those top characters are broken, or just generally overpowered.
BigRick
Smash Master
I said that Akuma is banned from ST... not SF3
ST is Super street fighter II turbo
And I said ORIGINAL version of CVS2... which means the arcade version.
To baheffron and Falco/Victory: did you guys read our discussion?
ST is Super street fighter II turbo
And I said ORIGINAL version of CVS2... which means the arcade version.
To baheffron and Falco/Victory: did you guys read our discussion?
DarkKnight077
Smash Lord
People play SF Hyper version than they do Turbo. =P Hyper fighting has only one broken character and that's Bison. **** cheap ***...
Anyways Kirby sucks IMO, seriously he has very little KO power and somewhat ugh combos. Skill usually doesn't matter in Tiers, it's really who wins and kind of who actually gets up on top. I mean Fox really doesn't have many counters and neither does Falco. Peach and Falcon do. Marth is really debatable. However the bottom 4 well they suck against the top and high tier. Probably..not Pichu (Is not a Pichu player) however when new smashers see the tier list they usually pick the high and the top because they think they are the best.
Anyways Kirby sucks IMO, seriously he has very little KO power and somewhat ugh combos. Skill usually doesn't matter in Tiers, it's really who wins and kind of who actually gets up on top. I mean Fox really doesn't have many counters and neither does Falco. Peach and Falcon do. Marth is really debatable. However the bottom 4 well they suck against the top and high tier. Probably..not Pichu (Is not a Pichu player) however when new smashers see the tier list they usually pick the high and the top because they think they are the best.
BigRick
Smash Master
Hmm Hyper Street Fighter II: Anniversary Edition and Street Fighter II: Hyper Fighting are two different games.
CE Bison is indeed top tier in HSF2... but he's not dead broken. ST Barlog maintains his top tier status... probably ST Dhalsim also.
Back on topic, I don't really understand what you're trying to say with the second part of your post... sry
DarkKnight077
Smash Lord
Time to simplify.
Top 4: Really don't have a lot counters. And beat the crud of almost everyone else.
Bottom 4: Have a lot of counters, really don't do well against others.
Top 4: Really don't have a lot counters. And beat the crud of almost everyone else.
Bottom 4: Have a lot of counters, really don't do well against others.
Binx
Smash Master
I think that this tier list is pretty accurate, especially since its based off of cold hard tournament results and who can really argue with that? But as far as character strength alone goes I would say that the tier list would look like this.
Marth
Shiek
Fox
Falco
Ice Climbers
Peach
Falcon
Samus
Doc
DK
Puff
Mario
Link
Ganon
Luigi
Ness followed by the rest of the low tier
Marth and Shiek tied for 1st they are both fairly difficult to combo, neither have many bad matchups. Fox and Falco are both amazing but their fast faller status makes them incredibly easy to combo into rediculous percents, both have a fairly predictable recovery and are easily gimped below the stage. Climbers have few bad match ups and are very under rated.
Marth
Shiek
Fox
Falco
Ice Climbers
Peach
Falcon
Samus
Doc
DK
Puff
Mario
Link
Ganon
Luigi
Ness followed by the rest of the low tier
Marth and Shiek tied for 1st they are both fairly difficult to combo, neither have many bad matchups. Fox and Falco are both amazing but their fast faller status makes them incredibly easy to combo into rediculous percents, both have a fairly predictable recovery and are easily gimped below the stage. Climbers have few bad match ups and are very under rated.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^Marth is actually very easy to combo simply because he doesn't go very far when you hit him at lower percents. Fox can combo him, Falco combos him like it's his job, Shiek combos him, Captain Falcon is why they fired Falco, Dr. Mario can chain uairs, Ganon gets a free kill out of a grab and can chain uairs for a while, Mario can chain uairs like there's no tommorow, do I need to go on?
I also recently found out that the light shield edgehog doesn't only depend on fall speed. In fact, that's the least important part of it. It mostly depends on the size of your shield and the range at which you can grab the ledge. Zelda can do the light shield edgehog just as well as fox. Jigglypuff does it better than Captain Falcon (free rest?). That makes edgeguarding Marth significantly easier for a lot of characters. His recovery is almost as predictable as the fast fallers' recoveries and he can be gimped almost as easily. Simply grab the ledge for invincibility frames, drop of and bair him.
Fox and Falco also don't have bad matchups so in that respect they're in the same situation as Marth and Shiek
I also recently found out that the light shield edgehog doesn't only depend on fall speed. In fact, that's the least important part of it. It mostly depends on the size of your shield and the range at which you can grab the ledge. Zelda can do the light shield edgehog just as well as fox. Jigglypuff does it better than Captain Falcon (free rest?). That makes edgeguarding Marth significantly easier for a lot of characters. His recovery is almost as predictable as the fast fallers' recoveries and he can be gimped almost as easily. Simply grab the ledge for invincibility frames, drop of and bair him.
Fox and Falco also don't have bad matchups so in that respect they're in the same situation as Marth and Shiek
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Marth can combo all of those characters far worse then they can combo him. Marth can get out of alot of combos that space animals can't just because DI is more effective with him because of his weight and how floaty he is. At lower percents, yes he is easy to combo, but he won't really get in to many combos that knock his percentage way up there except when he fights Falco. But Marth can do the same to him or worse.
CF is the only character that can 0-death Marth.
Overall Marth is pretty much tied as second best comboer in the game with Fox.
Falco is number 1 at comboing.
Also Old school Marth is 4th on the list.
New school Marth is second. ^_^
CF is the only character that can 0-death Marth.
Overall Marth is pretty much tied as second best comboer in the game with Fox.
Falco is number 1 at comboing.
Also Old school Marth is 4th on the list.
New school Marth is second. ^_^
Pat/Pro
Smash Ace
I think that the only reason that marth does so well against fox is because of the neutral stages. I have never had a problem beating any marths from the top to the bottom in terms of skill on pokemon stadium or even dreamland. But levels like battlefield, finald if they are proficient at chaingrabbing, yoshis story, etc make it very difficult for fox. Alot of the times whether or not I am going to win a set depends on what we random for the first match. I think the top of the tier list is more like this:
Fox
Shiek
Marth
Falco
Peach
Fox
Shiek
Marth
Falco
Peach
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^ I like his tier list.
Can't argue with Emblem Lord, Marth combos people to death a lot. I just didn't feel comfortable with Marth being above Fox.
Can't argue with Emblem Lord, Marth combos people to death a lot. I just didn't feel comfortable with Marth being above Fox.
Binx
Smash Master
The problem I have with fox is that alot of his really good matchups are only good matchups if you are amazingly technical, because he falls so fast one mistake can get you killed and he really doesnt have anything to escape bad situations with. I think one of the main reasons that Shiek is so high up is that not only is she great, but she is insanely easy to control and use even for novice level players, and her combos are fairly easy to keep going regardless of DI. Fox's combos are fast and difficult to continue against proper DI.
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
But these tiers apply to that level of play, the novices you speak off don't win the tourneys, or beat good players!
But I think the list is perfect, I also think this will be the last one, it might have one maybe 2 changes, but I think the characters' metagame is not going to change much, and fox can only get better as people get more technical...
Falco belongs in second IMO, because the SHL and the shine are just broken, even if you can powersheild them most of the time (Wes) they are still an hindrance and give you a great method of assualt...
But I think the list is perfect, I also think this will be the last one, it might have one maybe 2 changes, but I think the characters' metagame is not going to change much, and fox can only get better as people get more technical...
Falco belongs in second IMO, because the SHL and the shine are just broken, even if you can powersheild them most of the time (Wes) they are still an hindrance and give you a great method of assualt...
mood4food77
Smash Hero
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somebody told me me that top tier might look like this
Sheik
peach
fox
falco
marth
i looked at him like he was crazy
so with taking all of you stuff in review i think it might look like this now (i'm not doing tier stuff, just ordering them) (seperating into 2 groups, high tier and low tier)
high tier
sheik
fox
peach
falco
marth
ICs
falcon
samus
ganon
doc
mario
jiggs
DK
luigi
link
low tier
y. link
roy
pika
g&w
yoshi
ness
zelda
bowser
kirby
pichu
mewtwo
Sheik
peach
fox
falco
marth
i looked at him like he was crazy
so with taking all of you stuff in review i think it might look like this now (i'm not doing tier stuff, just ordering them) (seperating into 2 groups, high tier and low tier)
high tier
sheik
fox
peach
falco
marth
ICs
falcon
samus
ganon
doc
mario
jiggs
DK
luigi
link
low tier
y. link
roy
pika
g&w
yoshi
ness
zelda
bowser
kirby
pichu
mewtwo
mood4food77
Smash Hero
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marth will never be top 3, he gets ***** by fox on FD, falcon and ganon are also fairly decent counterpicks to him, now becoming better counterpicks than sheik, he does **** anyone below him as hard as the other characters above him do either
Emblem Lord
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Ganon doesn't counter Marth. Marth has no counter picks.
WTF?
lol. Smashboards knows nothing of new school Marth. You guys need to play M2K or Cactuar to understand that there really are two completely seperate metagames for Marth.
WTF?
lol. Smashboards knows nothing of new school Marth. You guys need to play M2K or Cactuar to understand that there really are two completely seperate metagames for Marth.
mood4food77
Smash Hero
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marth has a harder time starting combo's than ganon does
also, marth's throw combo's are all tech chases which also aren't the easiest thing to do, ganon's just **** marth
i said he's a counterpick, doesn't always mean he counters, he has an advantage
marth is countered by falcon, sheik has the advantage as well as fox, he only has the advantage on falco and peach
also, marth's throw combo's are all tech chases which also aren't the easiest thing to do, ganon's just **** marth
i said he's a counterpick, doesn't always mean he counters, he has an advantage
marth is countered by falcon, sheik has the advantage as well as fox, he only has the advantage on falco and peach
Emblem Lord
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R U SEREUS?!
Rofl. And Marth and CF basically counter each other. They each have to play off each other's weaknesses a great deal to win. But the fact that they counter each other makes the fight very close. I'll give CF slight advantage.
Ganon doesn't **** Marth. Marth can death combo him and outrange him and outprioritize him. How is he a counter? They go even.
I like how you said Shiek only has advantage while Ganon is a counterpick. lol. Shiek is the closest thing to a true Marth counter and even she doesn't really counter him.
Marth and Fox go even. This is pretty much a fact at this point. I don't think anyone can really dispute this. They can own each other pretty hard. Actually Marth might have slight advantage because Marth can get out of most of Foxes combos and other crap, but Fox can have a hard time getting past the range and can't get out of Marth's combos at all.
Did you just say Marth ONLY has advantage on Falco and Peach?
Only 2 characters?
RLY?
Rofl. And Marth and CF basically counter each other. They each have to play off each other's weaknesses a great deal to win. But the fact that they counter each other makes the fight very close. I'll give CF slight advantage.
Ganon doesn't **** Marth. Marth can death combo him and outrange him and outprioritize him. How is he a counter? They go even.
I like how you said Shiek only has advantage while Ganon is a counterpick. lol. Shiek is the closest thing to a true Marth counter and even she doesn't really counter him.
Marth and Fox go even. This is pretty much a fact at this point. I don't think anyone can really dispute this. They can own each other pretty hard. Actually Marth might have slight advantage because Marth can get out of most of Foxes combos and other crap, but Fox can have a hard time getting past the range and can't get out of Marth's combos at all.
Did you just say Marth ONLY has advantage on Falco and Peach?
Only 2 characters?
RLY?
mood4food77
Smash Hero
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i meant he had an advantage on 2 characters that matter, alright then he has the advantage on 6 characters that matter, compare that to the rest of the other characters who have the advantage on everyone below them except for sheik on ICs and peach on falcon (i think)
i was just at a tournament, mostly semi-pro, on the verge of becoming pro, sheik doesn't counter marth anymore
falcon counters marth more tahn sheik does, same with ganon
how can marth space against someone who has the same amount of reach and more priority than him, fair can't really combo until mid %s, ganon's bair ***** marth
fox has an easier time getting out of marth's combo's than marth has getting out of fox's combo's, on FD, fox *****, the otehr stages, they're even, i think YS and mute city, marth has hte advantage
i was just at a tournament, mostly semi-pro, on the verge of becoming pro, sheik doesn't counter marth anymore
falcon counters marth more tahn sheik does, same with ganon
how can marth space against someone who has the same amount of reach and more priority than him, fair can't really combo until mid %s, ganon's bair ***** marth
fox has an easier time getting out of marth's combo's than marth has getting out of fox's combo's, on FD, fox *****, the otehr stages, they're even, i think YS and mute city, marth has hte advantage
Dreadlord Santa
Smash Journeyman
I thought Chaingrabbing made the Marth/Fox matchup in FD more even? I'd much rather play a Fox on FD than a Falco, and that's with my horrendously limited amount of experience against Fox.
mood4food77
Smash Hero
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fox can shine combo the living hell outta marth on FD, it's weird but i hear a lot of fox's love to fight marth on FD
probably cause utilt is not much of a threat on FD as there are no platforms
probably cause utilt is not much of a threat on FD as there are no platforms
mood4food77
Smash Hero
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it's hard, but marth's 3 worst match-ups (sheik, falcon, ganon) have hard time against the top 3 characters (sheik is even with sheik, fox and falco have the advantage on sheik, sheik, fox, falco have the advantage on falcon/ganon), they also have no low tiers within reach of being even like marth (marth vs. link, marth vs. y. link, marth vs. yoshi), even with peach (peach vs. link, peach vs. y. link)
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