The 2006-2008 Tier list

[5150]

But your a great Shiek, and you know the game better than I do, so I'll take your word for it.

lol who told u that?

I still don't like how tiers have to do with popularity.

its not about popularity. it never was.

It is based off tourney results.
If more Foxes win tournies, that means he is higher tier.
And, as logic dictates, if there are more Foxes playing, a higher ratio of Foxes will win (even IF he weren't the best character in the game, that would be true).
If a thousand people all started using Mario and won tourneys, that means Mario would move up. But only BECAUSE people started using and winning with him, not because he magically got better.

There. Popularity affects the tiers.

>_>' Honestly, ManaLord and 5150. 'gg 2 u' and 'no' don't prove anything except you can't reason well enough to think of a, eh, reasonable response.

no its not based on popularity, popularity is based off of it. if you cant see that then you dont have the capacity to talk about tiers.

 

[Sensai]

5150, by definition, tiers are based on popularity. No, it's not like middle-school popularity where the most popular are placed at the top. But it IS easier for a popular character who's played a lot at the tournament level to get farther in the tiers.

And, like you said, it works the other way, also. If Fox is God tier, you'll have plenty of people who will play him due to that simple fact. But if no one had played Fox to begin with, we wouldn't very well know that he's up there, would we?

 

[5150]

5150, by definition, tiers are based on popularity. No, it's not like middle-school popularity where the most popular are placed at the top. But it IS easier for a popular character who's played a lot at the tournament level to get farther in the tiers.

And, like you said, it works the other way, also. If Fox is God tier, you'll have plenty of people who will play him due to that simple fact. But if no one had played Fox to begin with, we wouldn't very well know that he's up there, would we?

by definition, it's not. lol, what definition are you looking at?

popularity is the dependent variable.

you know who's really popular but not high on the tier list? samus. i see a ****-load of people using her but she doesnt move up ever. why is that? because tiers are based on overall potential + overall tournament placings.

 

[Aesir]

I'm way to lazy to get a funny picture so I'm just gonna tell the people whothink the tier list is a popularity contest, to stop posting.

 

[Sinz]

here you go.

btw, 5150 is right. so seriously.

 

[KevinM]

Here you go Aesir

For those of you who say Tiers are a popularity contest

And though i can't believe i say this.. to the people who disagree with 5150 at this point

you receive

Edit: **** IT SINZ

 

[DarkKnight077]

5150 is full of win. Even Kevin says so and so do I. So 5150 wins this thread.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

This is a ****ty thread. Go play smash, and pick a character you can win with. Tiers just get people pissed off, and they don't mean jack.

OMG MARTH MOVED BELOW FALCO SO NOW I HAVE TO PLAY FALCO BECAUSE MARTH ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH ANYMORE.

stfu n00bs and play the game. the player matters more than the character.

i'm only talking in this thread b/c i'm extremely bored. I hope no one here is taking any of this seriously or you have no life.

 

[The Hypnotist]

I've watched your videos 5150, and you seem good, and my friend who's really good (to me at least) says your "good" which means your great.

Also explain this, if it does have to do with potential then why isn't Marth in the top 2. The best player in the world plays as Marth, even if he's an extreme it proves Marth is the best thus having the most potential. Period.

 

[5150]

This is a ****ty thread. Go play smash, and pick a character you can win with. Tiers just get people pissed off, and they don't mean jack.

OMG MARTH MOVED BELOW FALCO SO NOW I HAVE TO PLAY FALCO BECAUSE MARTH ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH ANYMORE.

stfu n00bs and play the game. the player matters more than the character.

i'm only talking in this thread b/c i'm extremely bored. I hope no one here is taking any of this seriously or you have no life.

gb2 ur basement

I've watched your videos 5150, and you seem good, and my friend who's really good (to me at least) says your "good" which means your great.

Also explain this, if it does have to do with potential then why isn't Marth in the top 2. The best player in the world plays as Marth, even if he's an extreme it proves Marth is the best thus having the most potential. Period.

because it doesnt prove marth is the best. it proves hes the best with marth. the fact that mew2king and ken play marth is irrelevent because they are bad data points. ive already explained this. its like saying cfalcon should be where he is cuz of how good isai does (or did). that's wrong, it's just that isai is too good at the game. one or two players does not = the metagame.

also, what vids? i dont really have any vids out lol. and who is ur friend. i want to know these things.

 

[The Hypnotist]

But if Ken played as Pichu he would not win as frequently as he does with Marth, it has to do with the character. Are you saying if Ken played as Mario he'd still be the best, or if he played with fox he'd be better?

 

[5150]

But if Ken played as Pichu he would not win as frequently as he does with Marth, it has to do with the character. Are you saying if Ken played as Mario he'd still be the best, or if he played with fox he'd be better?

no. its just ken's best character (but im not sure anymore seeing as ken said hes gonna use fox for oc3). i keep having to say this because you dont seem to read it.

players like ken, isai, m2k, kdj, azen, etc etc etc don't determine the tier list. what they do is unlock new strategies for characters. then, the rest of the players use those new strategies with their respective characters.

its the OVERALL success of a character that determines how high they are on the tier list not how successful one player is with them. that would be stupid to make a tier list based on top players only because each top player has certain faults and certain strengths. for example, drephen is probably the best shiek main in the country (arguably), but he has the most ridiculously simple style. you can't place shiek on the tier list based off of one player's style.

it makes more sense to do a tier list based on overall potential + overall tourney record because it compensates for players' styles.

ill go back to my analogy with isai. you can't place falcon on the tier list based on isai, because he's just too good.

 

[KevinM]

This is a ****ty thread. Go play smash, and pick a character you can win with. Tiers just get people pissed off, and they don't mean jack.

OMG MARTH MOVED BELOW FALCO SO NOW I HAVE TO PLAY FALCO BECAUSE MARTH ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH ANYMORE.

stfu n00bs and play the game. the player matters more than the character.

i'm only talking in this thread b/c i'm extremely bored. I hope no one here is taking any of this seriously or you have no life.

Translation- I haven't listened to anything within this discussion and would like nothing more then to start an argument and raise my post count..

 

[BigRick]

It is based off tourney results.
If more Foxes win tournies, that means he is higher tier.
And, as logic dictates, if there are more Foxes playing, a higher ratio of Foxes will win (even IF he weren't the best character in the game, that would be true).
If a thousand people all started using Mario and won tourneys, that means Mario would move up. But only BECAUSE people started using and winning with him, not because he magically got better.

There. Popularity affects the tiers.

ROFL

What's up with that's crap reasoning... is this the Million Mario March???
Ken and M2K by themselves would probably **** a thousand marios so Fox and Marth would still remain above on the tier list.

>_>' Honestly, ManaLord and 5150. 'gg 2 u' and 'no' don't prove anything except you can't reason well enough to think of a, eh, reasonable response.

lol expect crappy answers for crappy arguments

 

[SCOTU]

Smooth one's kinda on the right track, but the thousand mario players winning would be offset w/ a thousand mario players losing. and just becase more ppl play fox doesn't make him higher on the tier list because statistically more ppl would win w/ fox. many would also loses w/ fox, so it balances some.

Oh, and BigRick, i still think that is an awesome sig.

 

[spike9407]

Smooth one's kinda on the right track, but the thousand mario players winning would be offset w/ a thousand mario players losing. and just becase more ppl play fox doesn't make him higher on the tier list because statistically more ppl would win w/ fox. many would also loses w/ fox, so it balances some.

Oh, and BigRick, i still think that is an awesome sig.

No it doesn't even out because there is no results saying 30 Foxes lost at so and so tournament. There could however be results saying 6/8 of the top 8 were Foxes through most of the tournament. Tiers and popularity go hand in hand. Let's say SSBM just came out. 50% of the competitive community, in a certain area, have used Captain Falcon as much or more than any other character and consider him their main. About 10% of the people, in the competitive community that also live in that area, that used Captain Falcon got really good with him in the first month. There are many videos of him destroying different characters so some competitive smashers in that area that were starting to get decent with Fox changed to him. 5 percent more of the competitive smashers in that area are maining him. 55% main him at the time. 11% of that area are really good with him by the second month and a MLG tourney is held. It's a 400 person one. 180 are Captain Falcons. There are 90 people that are a character in the current bottom tier, low tier, or middle teir excluding Captain Falcon. 130 are Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach, or Sheik. 8 percent of that area that was really good with him were there. So that makes 6.4% percent of the people there really good Captain Falcons. Captain Falcon has a 45% chance of winning. 10 of the really good Captain Falcons make top 24. They get 1st and 2nd. Fox in 3rd, Shiek 4th, and Marth 5th. Then the tier list would be Captain Falcon as first for probably a good long time until the diehard Fox fans make a breakthrough and a lot of there potential is unlocked. Oh whats that? The top player uses Fox. And a very good player uses him? Well he can still be 2nd on the list.

 

[REDRAGON]

Tell me why this theory is wrong:
Ken, M2K, and Azen use Marth to his full potential and IF you have the skill to master him then he is #1...
Fox's full potential is not as good, getting his full potential beats a Marth player that has not mastered Marth, but if the Marth fully masters him, then Marth pwns...

Redragon

 

[darE::to::Dream]

Didn't KDJ's Sheik beat M2K's Marth? Does that mean Sheik is #0, kind of like Isai in the power rankings?

 

[REDRAGON]

Didn't KDJ's Sheik beat M2K's Marth? Does that mean Sheik is #0, kind of like Isai in the power rankings?

That was a lil while back and M2k would pwn in rematch.
Trust me


Redragon

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think it shows that Marth's peak is easier to hit then Foxes or Falcos. A space animal at their peak would be unstoppable. But Marth is less technical but is till a threat. So it's a bit easiar to become beastly with him and become a "perfect" Marth then it is to become a "perfect" Fox or Falco.

Do you really think Marth is superior to Spacies with thier combos and thier shines? That one move, shine is just so godly in so many ways. A perfect space animal with perfect shines would be unbeatable.

Perfect Marth is more easily obtained so that's why the most elite use him. Because it's so hard to hit the full potential of spacies.

 

[darE::to::Dream]

I said M2K, not Ken. Which happened a little less than two months ago.

Ken hasn't been to a major tournament in a little while and probably won't show up again until OC3. I wonder if he'll shake up the brackets again when he reappears....

 

[spike9407]

Tell me why this theory is wrong:
Ken, M2K, and Azen use Marth to his full potential and IF you have the skill to master him then he is #1...
Fox's full potential is not as good, getting his full potential beats a Marth player that has not mastered Marth, but if the Marth fully masters him, then Marth pwns...

Redragon

Fox's peak is way harder to reach and way better if reached then they are unstoppable. Shining alone is quite dangerous if mastered due to the fact they can't get back if you're shine is good enough.

 

[REDRAGON]

I think it shows that Marth's peak is easier to hit then Foxes or Falcos. A space animal at their peak would be unstoppable. But Marth is less technical but is till a threat. So it's a bit easiar to become beastly with him and become a "perfect" Marth then it is to become a "perfect" Fox or Falco.

Do you really think Marth is superior to Spacies with thier combos and thier shines? That one move, shine is just so godly in so many ways. A perfect space animal with perfect shines would be unbeatable.

Perfect Marth is more easily obtained so that's why the most elite use him. Because it's so hard to hit the full potential of spacies.

Fox's peak is way harder to reach and way better if reached then they are unstoppable. Shining alone is quite dangerous if mastered due to the fact they can't get back if you're shine is good enough.

Thats what my friend said, heres how i reply:
I can easily agree for Marth because i have PROOF:
Ken, Azen, M2k pwn with Marth and they win most the tourneys they go to because they have mastered Marth.
You are basing you agreement off of an idea, an idea that has not been proven. All you can say is "Oh IF you mastered him you would pwn"
Prove it!

I said M2K, not Ken. Which happened a little less than two months ago.

Ken hasn't been to a major tournament in a little while and probably won't show up again until OC3. I wonder if he'll shake up the brackets again when he reappears....

I said M2K too
Ken went to a small tourney that i went too a few weeks ago and it still playing, not as much but still going.

 

[darE::to::Dream]

I said M2K too

Last edited by REDRAGON : Today at 09:35 PM.
My post: Today 08:54 PM

Thank you, but you can't change the past without people noticing.

Prove it!

Prove Marth is the best by picking up Marth and winning some major tournaments with him. Or, stop making unreasonable demands.

 

[REDRAGON]

Last edited by REDRAGON : Today at 09:35 PM.
My post: Today 08:54 PM

Thank you, but you can't change the past without people noticing.


Prove Marth is the best by picking up Marth and winning some major tournaments with him. Or, stop making unreasonable demands.

Yeah that was a joke...............whatever lol

YOU my friend are making unreasonable demands. I never said i was the best. lol
Marth has won TONS of tourneys(Maybe even like 90% if the people who have mastered him are there)
You are saying: Fox is the best but no one has mastered him.
How bout YOU start making some reasonable demands???


Redragon

 

[darE::to::Dream]

I never said Fox was the best. Do read back a little and notice I did not say that at all. To ask people to give proof, when from my memory all you've done was ignore it and say something like "character 1 >>>>>>>> character 2 so someone give me proof otherwise!!!" seems a bit unappealing to me. To take that one step further and ask for evidence more compelling than Ken, Azen, and Mew2king, and you've got a "Well, prove to me that God doesn't exist!" argument.

Out of curiosity, didn't Ken and Mew2king both play Fox?

 

[REDRAGON]

I never said Fox was the best. Do read back a little and notice I did not say that at all. To ask people to give proof, when from my memory all you've done was ignore it and say something like "character 1 >>>>>>>> character 2 so someone give me proof otherwise!!!" seems a bit unappealing to me. To take that one step further and ask for evidence more compelling than Ken, Azen, and Mew2king, and you've got a "Well, prove to me that God doesn't exist!" argument.

Out of curiosity, didn't Ken and Mew2king both play Fox?

Do you think Fox is the best? Yes or no
I have proof for my agreement because all those pros pwn with Marth. Who pwns with Fox at a consistent rate and wins many tourneys?
Ken plays Fox a lil, against certain matchup and certain stages he will
M2K did and does but i think he plays Marth more now, and he is doing better with Marth(i think)

 

[darE::to::Dream]

The theoretically "perfect Fox" can only be seen in SDM's No Mercy, Adventure, and Perfect Control series, but it's pretty telling of how strong perfect gets.

My post was simply a counter-argument to your definition of the best - that Sheik still has an advantage on Marth, and is still pretty heavily played.

 

[Aesir]

marth and sheik are amazing when played with pros, why they have loads of experience backing them up they're easer to play. Not as technically straining as fox and falco.

However Fox and Falco, essentially are the better characters, why? you can essentially learn falco tech and be a moderately smart player and bingo you're competitive. Its not the fact that marth and sheik are better, its the fact that they're easier to play, then fox/falco where as fox and falco require **** loads of tech.

edit: this post is meant to shut everyone up, probably not but I'm bored and need to do something.

 

[BigRick]

Fox/Falco are too good.

Screw the name Melee, let's call this game ''Star Fox: The Fighters'' instead.

 

[Adi]

Your sig would be dissapointed in you.

 

[majoras.]

Do you think Fox is the best? Yes or no
I have proof for my agreement because all those pros pwn with Marth. Who pwns with Fox at a consistent rate and wins many tourneys?
Ken plays Fox a lil, against certain matchup and certain stages he will
M2K did and does but i think he plays Marth more now, and he is doing better with Marth(i think)

Fox is not the best, but he is better than marth

 

[SCOTU]

who wins major tourneys w/ fox?
Here's the top 12 players on the last smash panel power rankings.
1. Ken 1 ▬ Marth
2. Chu Dat 2 ▬ Ice Climbers
3. Mew2King 6 ▲ 4 Fox
4. PC Chris 3 ▼ 1 Falco, Fox
5. Azen 5 ▬ Marth, various
6. KoreanDJ 7 ▲ 1 Fox, Sheik
7. Isai 4 ▼ 3 Sheik, Captain Falcon, Fox
8. Chillindude 8 ▬ Fox
9. Dope 10 ▲ 1 Falco
10. Vidjogamer 13 ▲ 3 Peach
11. KM 12 ▲ 1 Falco, Fox, Marth
12. Tink 11 ▼ 1 Fox, Falco

Note that Ken's fox is arguably just as good as his marth.
so you have:
Ken, M2K, PC, Azen, KDJ, Isai, Chillin, Dope (i've been told he 2nds fox), KM, Tink.

That's 10/ top 12. only 4 Marths (Ken, M2K, Azen, KM) There, proof. are you frikin happy?

 

[The Hypnotist]

It's not a popularity contest. It's who's the best, and FTR Ken's Marth is the best. Period. With your logic Ice Climbers should be before Peach because there is only one Peach in the top 12 and only one IC, and the IC is better.

 

[TGM]

Marth is 4th for a reason. fox/falco are flat out better than he is. faster, move combos, and they have a shine.

 

[Aesir]

I don't exactly think shine is sole reason, but yeah for the most part you're right. >___>

 

[BigRick]

Your sig would be dissapointed in you.

What? Fox/Falco might be too good... but Falcon is godlike!

 

[TGM]

I don't exactly think shine is sole reason, but yeah for the most part you're right. >___>

shine isnt the sole reason but its a VERY IMPORTANT PART. think, if they didnt have the shine that would mean many combos would not be avalible to bust out.

 

[Aesir]

^ Hence why you listed combos, that would include shine. But who cares? >_>

 

[Wilhelmsan]

Fox without shine would still be high tier with upthrow->upair and his nair/bair tandem.

oh and upsmash...that move is so bloody good.