Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012

[Fortress | Sveet]

PP still says that Mango is the best in the world until armada can repeat the results.


edit- hax said mango could have easily won if he just decided to play "gay" or w/e you wanna call it.

 

[JPOBS]

Saying there's no argument doesn't make it true. There absolutely is an argument.

Picking the 5 tourneys that Armada attended, huh? PP hadn't yet gone super saiyan at some of those. Mango didn't try at all of those. Armada has yet to beat a healthy PP (this smacks of johns, I'll admit, but come on; PP is the last person who'd make untrue excuses).

Thats not an argument for why PP is better than Armada.

"PP hadn't gone super sayian yet, and when he did, he won one tournament"
So yea, like I said, theres no argument for PP beng better than armada. Aramda and PP have both won exactly one tournament (which armada attended). That was my whole point. But a lot of people act like PP is a bonafide better player than armada and it just makes me facepalm.

I don't really care about mango trying or not. We can't assume he would have won if he had tried, so there no point even considering it. He tried at G2 and lost so whatever.

It's all baloney. There is no clear best player in the world at this moment.

Fine, I can agree with this.

If you want to say that Genesis 2 makes armada better than PP, I'd like to remind you once again that by your logic, Taj is better than PP too. After all, he's been placing well in tourneys longer, and he beat him at Genesis 2.

This isn't by my logic. Aramada placed 1st, 2nd, or 4th at 5 of the largest tournamentd ever. My logic appeals to how other people also placed at those tournaments. If you really want to use "my logic", then clearly taj isn't even close. Don't make things up just because it suits your agenda.

Once again: shut it until Apex. There's absolutely no reason to say that any one of the top three is conclusively the best.

But apex will just be "one" tournament. Lets say PP wins, why would he then be considered the best after having just lost G2?

People always do this. "Wait until the next big tournament to decide"..
then the next big tournament happens, and theres always some BS reason why the winner hasn't "proved himself" yet because of some johns. (mango didnt try, so and so was sick, so and so lost his controller)
And then we have to wait until the next tourny. I don't see how suddenly winning Apex shuld count more than winning any of the others. When the next big tourny gets anounced, people will be like "oh just wait until ____"

 

[Sinji]

Armada has yet to beat a healthy PP

What?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt9i8QjAeCc

 

[Acryte]

If anything we should say Armada is clearly better than PP so that PP has even more motivation come Apex

 

[Strife]

I think the top 3 being Mango, Dr PP and Armada is too close to decide a clear winner. Unless Armada wins Apex again(if he doesn't almost certainly PP or Mango will) then it'll still be impossible to gauge a best ''player''. Historically simply in terms of performance Armada has remained the most consistent, I suppose since Rom3 PP has been just as consistent if not more consistent than Armada, but 7th is pretty bad for someone competing for the ''world's best'' title, and sick or not I don't think Armada or Mango would lose to a player of Shroomed's caliber(even as beast as Shroomed has become).

As for Mango playing more Gay at G2, he got that far playing his crazy aggressive style and it worked for him all weekend. If he had played gayed he may have done better or may have done much worse, it's a non-sensical cowardice argument to say Mango is better and should have played more gay. We'll see what happens at Apex I guess.

 

[Bones0]

First big tournament after Apex, M2K will start ****** everyone because he won't be focused on Brawl. Quote me.

C'mon M2K. You have to get ANGRY.
YOU HAVE TO GET MEAN!!!

 

[Strong Badam]

I really want M2K to focus seriously on Melee and take back the title of Melee Champion. I know he can do it.

 

[Divinokage]

He did just double eliminate Mango.

 

[Strong Badam]

what a monster man

 

[Battlecow]

Thats not an argument for why PP is better than Armada.

"PP hadn't gone super sayian yet, and when he did, he won one tournament"
So yea, like I said, theres no argument for PP beng better than armada. Aramda and PP have both won exactly one tournament (which armada attended). That was my whole point. But a lot of people act like PP is a bonafide better player than armada and it just makes me facepalm.

I was quite clear. I'm not saying PP is a bonafide better player, I'm saying it's too close to call with any degree of certainty or objectivity.

I don't really care about mango trying or not. We can't assume he would have won if he had tried, so there no point even considering it. He tried at G2 and lost so whatever.

I agree. If he doesn't want to try ever, we assume he's not any better than his placings.

This isn't by my logic. Aramada placed 1st, 2nd, or 4th at 5 of the largest tournamentd ever. My logic appeals to how other people also placed at those tournaments. If you really want to use "my logic", then clearly taj isn't even close. Don't make things up just because it suits your agenda.

The "major" tournaments that Armada did better than PP in (prior to G2) were ones where we didn't have modern PP. Likewise, Taj outplaced PP for years because PP hadn't started playing yet. It's the same thing. I'm not making anything up.

But apex will just be "one" tournament. Lets say PP wins, why would he then be considered the best after having just lost G2?

No. To be the best, he'd have to convincingly win maybe three in a row. After that, the rhetoric of fans and players alike would almost certainly change to "X needs to get better so that he can beat Y." Ken was the undisputed best back in the day because he won nearly every tourney (he dropped one or two, but we never called Isai the best). m2k was kind of the undisputed best for a while, because he won almost everything. Mango was definitely the undisputed best for a while, because he won almost everything. When PP/Mango/Armada starts winning almost everything, we'll have a clear best.

People always do this. "Wait until the next big tournament to decide"..
then the next big tournament happens, and theres always some BS reason why the winner hasn't "proved himself" yet because of some johns. (mango didnt try, so and so was sick, so and so lost his controller)
And then we have to wait until the next tourny. I don't see how suddenly winning Apex shuld count more than winning any of the others. When the next big tourny gets anounced, people will be like "oh just wait until ____"

No. If a player shows himself to be dominant, we'll all fall in line. There might be a few mango fanboys left, but should armada win Apex with both PP and mango in attendance and with PP johnless (honestly I can't imagine PP getting that unlucky again, and if mango decides to play pichu or whatever while snorting coke or talk about how his love of the crowd made him lose, **** him) I and most others will definitely cede him the "results wise clearly best player in the world" thing. That's not to say I won't believe in PP's ability to take him next time, but he'll definitely have the crown.

 

[Metal Reeper]

first big tournament after apex, m2k will start ****** everyone because he won't be focused on brawl. Quote me.

C'mon m2k. You have to get angry.
you have to get mean!!!

thats the only way you can play!

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

like everyone been saying its unclear who is the best, but clear who the top 3 r. So since we cant decided who number 1 is i feel we should think about it as one would think about the superbowl or world series. we should just say the most recent winner of a major is the champion atm and b/c of that is the best till the next major. I think this works, u r only the champion till u aren't.

edit: u know what someone should do. someone should go to toys r us or something and by like a wwf champion belt and just give it to the winner of the next major. then we just have them pass that along whenever someone else wins a major. then we can just look at the belt say hes the champ right now and then stop arguing about who is the best.

Also about a post on the last page that says we wont know whos the best until someone wins 3 in a row. I hope that never happens. melee is so much more exciting now that there is no clear number 1

 

[Strong Badam]

Where the **** has this thread gone? Thread's about the ruleset, not who the best player is.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

edit: u know what someone should do. someone should go to toys r us or something and by like a wwf champion belt and just give it to the winner of the next major. then we just have them pass that along whenever someone else wins a major. then we can just look at the belt say hes the champ right now and then stop arguing about who is the best.

.... like the belt armada won at genesis?

 

[Gimpyfish62]

Items are STILL off? Come on guys.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I don't get it. Can you explain to me why you think items should be legal?

Or are you just trolling? I can't tell. =P

 

[Van.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPF14ntYqqs&feature=related

^I think this answers your question

 

[Silent Wolf]

why-is-there-banning-sometimes-in-singles-and-sometimes-not?-there-should-always-be-one-stage-ban-because-some-stages-are-just-********-for-some-match-ups.

also,-japes-for-teams?-thats-a-terrible-stage.-idk-what-you-guys-are-thinking-lol.

why-do-the-rules-even-need-to-be-changed-lol.-just-take-out-brinstar-and-theyll-be-perfectly-fine-the-way-they-are.

 

[Roneblaster]

Mango is still the best so it doesnt matter.

 

[Bones0]

Peach has items. The current rule set is biased against characters that aren't Peach, therefore we need to balance the matchups by adding them in.

 

[JPOBS]

Items are STILL off? Come on guys.

I don't get it. Can you explain to me why you think items should be legal?

Or are you just trolling? I can't tell. =P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPF14ntYqqs&feature=related

^I think this answers your question

this made me laugh so hard.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

.... like the belt armada won at genesis?

well i forgot about that. but yes like that. (maybe someone should buy tag team belts for doubles then )

 

[Sinji]

But Items were banned since 2004. Then Ken won Game Over o_o.

 

[Bones0]

But Items were banned since 2004. Then Ken won Game Over o_o.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFcnnPtUhGw

 

[Deleted member]

edit- hax said mango could have easily won if he just decided to play "gay" or w/e you wanna call it.

actually, i agree. but the point is, when it was time to do it, he didn't. and not playing a certain way caused him to lose, thus he is still worse.

mango is probably the best player skill wise but he makes ******** decisions that hand him losses. playing mario, not camping, showing up drunk, w/e. the point is he's losing because of it, and he's not the best player in the world.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I can't wait until the next national and M2K gets on jungle japes and completely ****ing destroys everyone by being wack as ****. Brawl kinda wackness. Brawl-wack.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

actually, i agree. but the point is, when it was time to do it, he didn't. and not playing a certain way caused him to lose, thus he is still worse.

mango is probably the best player skill wise but he makes ******** decisions that hand him losses. playing mario, not camping, showing up drunk, w/e. the point is he's losing because of it, and he's not the best player in the world.

I guess, technically. But mango has won more [inter]national tourneys than anyone else. PP has 2, Hbox has 2, Armada has 1, Mango has 3 or 4

 

[FerrishTheFish]

So how about them counterpick stages, eh? I think they should be added back into the ruleset. There are plenty of matchups unaffected by them and plenty of players who at least believe they are not messed up by them.

To my understanding, the CP stages have been banned based on the criterion that they introduce too great an aspect of player vs. stage, NOT based on character balance issues or matchups. However, the rationale for removing KJ64 was that it affects certain matchups by allowing certain characters to safely, infinitely camp other characters. I can only see two arguments in favor of banning KJ64 that actually conform to the supposed criterion of its removal:

THE BARREL: It was suggested that barrel introduces an element of player vs. stage, but the presence of the barrel doesn't really interfere with gameplay to a significantly greater degree than Randall on YS. I'm sure everybody can think of times when the barrel screwed up their recovery and/or saved their opponent from certain death. I'm sure everybody can also think of times when Randall has done the same: the high floor on YS means that most characters will die before human reaction time kicks in if they are somehow screwed up by the cloud. I really don't think this is a valid argument for KJ64's removal from the counterpick list.

THE EDGE: The edge arguably has a negative effect on Fox, Falco, Sheik, Samus, Link, and Young Link. I could argue all day that even these characters benefit from the fact that you can jump/upB through the bottom of the stage, but since character balance is NOT a concern, I shouldn't even have to. So what element of player vs. stage does the edge introduce? "Aiming for the edge?" You also have to aim for Battlefield's edge. Battlefield doesn't have a barrel that can sometimes save you. Battlefield doesn't allow you to jump through the bottom of the stage. Battlefield's edge randomly doesn't allow characters to grab it even if they aim perfectly. And yet Battlefield is considered the "most balanced" stage. I don't think aiming for KJ64's edge should be considered a bigger element of player vs. stage than Battlefield's edge.

I think stage bans were removed in bo5's because, with no CP stages, stage bans are really unnecessary. However, I think that implementing the two rules in my signature (the second for bo5's only, obviously) would allow for stage bans and CP stages to be added back into the ruleset.

 

[Bones0]

KJ64 is banned because you can time out 3/4ths of the cast with relative ease. It's the same reason Hyrule is banned, and it's not about balancing matchups, but about avoiding wins being given to people solely on who they chose as their character. You can't compare auto-win stages to advantageous neutrals, or even the more extreme cps like RC and BS.

Taj's rule is pointless because PS is the only cp.

Lazyfish's rule is already in effect. It's called DSR.

 

[ShroudedOne]

What happens at Battlefield's ledge isn't really random, though. You can definitely account for it. Whenever the ledge messes me up, it's because I forget about how weird it is, not because it decides to kill me.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Basically each character has a grab box which, when colliding with the respective edge grab box, causes the character to grab the edge. In melee, you can't grab backwards. What causes people to get battlefielded is a combination of either holding a direction that causes your character not to grab the edge (such as down) or your character being considered past the edge and attempting to grab backwards resulting in the game saying "NO!" to your grab.

Strong Bad or Magus did a good explanation of why it happens, so if this wasnt that good of an explanation i'm sure they could bust out all the gifs and stuff

 

[Cactuar]

I'm probably going to remove Japes in time for Apex (and it's paired stage).

I don't think anyone has enough experience to play it competitively, which is unfortunate, because it will never get played competitively as a result of people lacking familiarity with it. There is a lot of stuff that can gimp someone who is unaware of the (otherwise harmless) stage hazards, and an experienced player can force them into it and take a huge advantage with relatively small risk. At least on a national level, this stage will not be recommended. I would like to see it played and tested by better players, but I've decided against experimenting with that on the recommended ruleset.

 

[choknater]

hell yeah @ jungle japes

hell nah @ removing for apex!

 

[Metal Reeper]

I'm probably going to remove Japes in time for Apex (and it's paired stage).

I don't think anyone has enough experience to play it competitively, which is unfortunate, because it will never get played competitively as a result of people lacking familiarity with it. There is a lot of stuff that can gimp someone who is unaware of the (otherwise harmless) stage hazards, and an experienced player can force them into it and take a huge advantage with relatively small risk. At least on a national level, this stage will not be recommended. I would like to see it played and tested by better players, but I've decided against experimenting with that on the recommended ruleset.

Aw but I really wanna see some stupid random **** happen on Japes :/

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I'm probably going to remove Japes in time for Apex (and it's paired stage).

I don't think anyone has enough experience to play it competitively, which is unfortunate, because it will never get played competitively as a result of people lacking familiarity with it. There is a lot of stuff that can gimp someone who is unaware of the (otherwise harmless) stage hazards, and an experienced player can force them into it and take a huge advantage with relatively small risk. At least on a national level, this stage will not be recommended. I would like to see it played and tested by better players, but I've decided against experimenting with that on the recommended ruleset.

so i guarantee this was anwsered previously, but i don't know how i'd thread search it and don't wanna go back through pages

but why is japes legal now, as opposed to before? and why are we doing a level with such noticeable stage effects (water, croc), wasn't that a leading force for the removal of brinstar?

i wanna point out some noticeable obvious reasons for how this level can cause problems, but iassume these things were brought up.

like for starters, even knowing the level very well, how does the croc forcing people to release the ledge/ go up make for a balanced game?

 

[Divinokage]

I'm pretty sure you can throw them inside the croc if you see it coming, 1 hit KO. lol. Is that really what we want?

 

[Sinji]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFcnnPtUhGw

Wow Brawl. Who would have thought you would post that on a Melee thread.

 

[Life]

I'm pretty sure you can throw them inside the croc if you see it coming, 1 hit KO. lol. Is that really what we want?

1. Grats on 10K
2. DI upward and it shouldn't be a problem AFAIK (though I might be confusing Brawl and Melee Japes--are there any significant differences besides the water physics and other general BvM things?)

*returns to lurking*

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm pretty sure you can throw them inside the croc if you see it coming, 1 hit KO. lol. Is that really what we want?

Maybe with DK.... I dont see how any other character can actually throw someone into the "croc"

 

[Bones0]

Maybe with DK.... I dont see how any other character can actually throw someone into the "croc"

Marth's dthrow, but yeah, very few actual scenarios where this would happen. I think it's mostly just an example that something dumb COULD happen and result in a random stock loss.