Bones0
Smash Legend
When's the last time a noteworthy TO has used the MBR rule set?
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Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
Strife
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2011
- Messages
- 784
I don't know what this guy is talking about.
The majority of people in THIS THREAD, and in the MBR are for removing cps. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the community as a whole is against cps. Genesis2 had a KJ64 on as a legal counter pick, and no one complained about it.
There is an always has been a large portion of the community who are for cps. Check the No Johns thread, or the stage list re-banning thread Sveet made a while back for proof of that. You are as bad as Cactuar.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
By making this ruleset the gold standard, the ruleset by which all other rulesets shall be judged, the "default" ruleset for any tournament, they kind of are. As I said, in order for a tournament to be relevant, it must be consistent--i.e., it must conform. Nobody would attend a bo1 knockout tournament with all stages and/or items set to on because such a tournament does not conform. To a lesser degree, this will have the same effect. You cannot deny that the MBR is attempting to actively influence, rather than respond to, the community.
Either that, or everyone will disregard this ruleset in favor of what has worked in the past. Notice how nobody wants that. The reason people like me who disagree with the new ruleset are even posting on this thread is because we DON'T want to just completely disregard the MBR. We respect the MBR. We know what the MBR has done for us and what it is capable of doing for us. And that is why we want the MBR and the community to be on the same side.
Beat!
Smash Master
Fixed that for you.
Look, TO's decide their own rulesets. If the players like it, then they are more likely to go. Trying to blame it on the MBR, or saying that they're "forcing" you to play on certain stages, just because they've recommended a certain rule set is just silly.
Word it however you want. They're. not. forcing. you.
(and I'm not saying we should just ignore the minority here. All I'm saying is this entire "omg the MBR is forcing us" argument is ********)
Fortress | Sveet
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This thread reminds me of a joke about throwing a penny into a crowd of jews...
Bones0
Smash Legend
KJ64 isn't nearly as bad as BS and RC because most people don't feel like flying across the country to time someone out; that's why no one complained.
I've never met this large portion of the community I guess. Like I've said before, I've never seen a SINGLE cube with the counterpicks on random. The No Johns thread (created by someone who, to my knowledge, hasn't played in years) has minimal supporters. A group of maybe 5-10 people (being generous) who frequently argue for more stages with a few passing players with < 5 tournaments under their belt saying stuff like, "Yeah, this ruleset seems neat/fun. I like playing on such-and-such stage." I would imagine that if the entrants at Genesis were polled, 80%+ would have been against cps like RC and BS, and I would also guess that if you looked at only the players in bracket, it would have been upwards of 90%. Obviously I have no evidence to support this, but so many pro-cp people have already admitted that the vast majority of players prefer no cps (Kal said 85%, I believe).
Lmao. What am I doing. I'm not a wall o' text kinda guy.
*takes a chill pill*
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*takes a chill pill*
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Fortress | Sveet
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I think im just gonna quote that cactus post every time things get out of hand.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
LOL, I actually saw that wall of text. You would have shutdown a lot of people by saying this. I wanted to put the song "Drop the bomb" from DDR.Lmao. What am I doing. I'm not a wall o' text kinda guy.
*takes a chill pill*
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I just type things as they come to me. Glad to hear that my words moved you so. Now remember them, but never repeat them, as the knowledge they impart is forbidden to those not worthy.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
LOL, indeed warrior. =)
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Because when I speak of a tournament "conforming," I definitely do not mean conforming to what people like. Yup. "What people like" and "what conforms" are entirely unrelated. All in the interest of trying to make me look "********" so your flimsy argument looks a little more solid by comparison.
So you deny that the MBR is attempting to actively influence the community, rather than allowing the community to influence them? You deny that creating a ruleset based on a small, elitist group's opinions on what competition should be is profoundly different from simply reflecting a majority opinion, especially when said group actually has no idea what the majority opinion really is?
(and I'm not saying we should just ignore the MBR. All I'm saying is that this entire "the MAJORITY agree" argument is complete bullsh*t until someone actually provides some sort of evidence for it. You give me that, and I'll have no problem with this ruleset).
Bones0
Smash Legend
You're delusional. At the very least, it's obvious that recent major tournaments have influenced this rule set. Genesis and Apex had removed cps before this rule set was posted, so how can you say the MBR is influencing anything? It's simply reflecting how tournaments are run these days.
It's kind of sad though that you guys just go with majority opinion and don't look at stages competitive value. Stages only seem to be looked at what they detract from competitive play rather than add. There seems to be a lot of stages banned for minor balancing issues, why are stages banned for this reason but not characters? There are a lot of logically fallacy's that go into banning some of the stages that have been banned, and an overabundance of people giving hypothetical situations without tournament results supporting their claims.
How can you make a game more competitive by removing depth from it? Why are you trying to make the game more competitive in the first place, is it not competitive enough? Are results not consistent? Are these stages over-centralizing the meta-game? Do they have random elements that cannot be accounted for?
Flip those questions over and think about the answers.
How can you make a game more competitive by removing depth from it? Why are you trying to make the game more competitive in the first place, is it not competitive enough? Are results not consistent? Are these stages over-centralizing the meta-game? Do they have random elements that cannot be accounted for?
Flip those questions over and think about the answers.
Bones0
Smash Legend
You're using the same strawman arguments that have been addressed a million times already.
- Stages were not banned because of majority opinion
- Stages were not banned due to balancing issues
- "How can you make a game more competitive by removing depth from it?" This is circular logic; you're just assuming the cps add depth.
- "Do they have random elements that cannot be accounted for?" Yes...
I'm not sure how I'm making straw man arguments. I'm asking questions based off posts in this thread, I'm not even addressing anything yet. You also conveniently skipped one of my most important questions.
- You yourself just said that the ruleset is reflecting how tournaments are run these days, how is that not a majority opinion?
- I've read differently but ok.
- I'm only assuming as much as you are, people aren't even discussing the possibility of adding depth with more stages.
- What stages have random elements that cannot be accounted for? To be more specific, the most recently 5-6 banned stages.
- You yourself just said that the ruleset is reflecting how tournaments are run these days, how is that not a majority opinion?
- I've read differently but ok.
- I'm only assuming as much as you are, people aren't even discussing the possibility of adding depth with more stages.
- What stages have random elements that cannot be accounted for? To be more specific, the most recently 5-6 banned stages.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Stages only seem to be looked at what they detract from competitive play rather than add. There seems to be a lot of stages banned for minor balancing issues, why are stages banned for this reason but not characters? There are a lot of logically fallacy's that go into banning some of the stages that have been banned, and an overabundance of people giving hypothetical situations without tournament results supporting their claims.
How can you make a game more competitive by removing depth from it? Why are you trying to make the game more competitive in the first place, is it not competitive enough? Are results not consistent? Are these stages over-centralizing the meta-game? Do they have random elements that cannot be accounted for?
Flip those questions over and think about the answers.[/QUOTE]
I gave you 8 stages, just in case 6 wasn't enough.
How can you make a game more competitive by removing depth from it? Why are you trying to make the game more competitive in the first place, is it not competitive enough? Are results not consistent? Are these stages over-centralizing the meta-game? Do they have random elements that cannot be accounted for?
Flip those questions over and think about the answers.[/QUOTE]
You're trying to twist the arguments around by stating things that are completely false, such as:
The MBR rule set reflects recent tournaments, but recent tournaments didn't decide to get rid of cps for no good reason, or because everyone wants to. It's because they have a negative effect on competition. Just because the majority supports something doesn't mean there's no good reason for it to be the majority opinion in the first place...
It's been discussed plenty. I've personally typed a whole wall of text addressing the issue of determining how much a stage adds vs. detracts from competitive play.
Brinstar's lava, Mute City's cars, Onett's cars, Jungle Japes's Klap Trap, Peach's Castle's Bullet Bills/buttons, Corneria's Arwings, MKII's Birdos, Green Greens's apples/blocks/bombs.
I gave you 8 stages, just in case 6 wasn't enough.
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- Mar 14, 2011
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You can account for Onett's cars. They give you enough warning. Not saying it's a good stage or anything, though.
Fortress | Sveet
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These are very good questions and points, however they have all pretty much been addressed. Because you are hylian i'll try to present a couple common arguments. Be aware that every argument can be argued against and that at the end of the day it really comes down to what people want, but try to keep an open mind and hopefully you can see another point of view.
Going back a little ways, Corneria, Pokefloats and Mute City were all banned after Genesis 1 going into Pound 4. Corneria mostly because of the fin and overpowered camping strategies that devolved match-ups on that stage. Pokefloats' ban was credited to circle camping of sorts. I think the match cited often is t3h spammererer vs vidjo or something like that. Mute City was removed a little more quietly and maybe partially because of Armada using it as a CP routinely at Genesis. In any case these stages are gone and I think everyone was happy across the board; even those that benefited from the stages kinda agreed that they were strong.
For Pound 4 an entirely new ruleset was introduced. This was the first major tournament to use stage striking, and the stages for the strike were FoD, YS, BF, FD and DL. PS, Brinstar, RC and KJ64 were all left legal and on counterpick. Initially people were very against stage striking, as a TO I had to explain the system to people for quite and most older players basically said "**** this its stupid". One complaint was that it always forced the strike to BF. After a lot of arguing and basically being shown how much more fair striking was, people kinda just shut up about it and now basically nobody says we should go back to randoming.
As for your post itself, you claim we have not looked into the competitive value and only look at the negative. The reason we ban stages instead of characters is because there is no unbalanced character. There are characters that are better than others but most people can't even decide who the best character is (the last tier list had a 3 way tie between falco fox and puff for a solid amount of time before being retracted by the MBR).
What we call the neutral stages are the most similar and most balanced stages in the game. Like cactuar said, pretty much everyone has those 6 stages on their random list during friendlies and for a reason. They are the stages everyone considers important to play in order to learn the game and improve as a player; it only makes sense to use them as the determinant for competition between two players.
The stages that are being banned by this ruleset -- Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar and Kongo Jungle 64 -- are, not shockingly, the most similar to the neutrals. The exact reason for them being removed is both broad and specific. In broad terms they favor extreme defensive strategies too much.
On Rainbow Cruise there is only a vague aspect of "trapping" compared to what is found on other stages, essentially allowing faster characters to get the lead and never approach with no consequences. Some people will say that fox is the only viable character on the stage because of his speed and gun.
On Brinstar the lava is annoying however the most uncompetitive aspect is the breakable floor. For example, peach would be able to break it with her dsmash and then camp on the other side. The opponent would be unable to approach except by jumping over the gap. Thats not even really mentioning the advantages gained by peach and puff when the lava takes over the stage.
Kongo Jungle is being banned for circle camping. The top platforms and overall large size of the stage allows major abuse making certain characters literally unplayable. Check out this match, Armada vs Hungrybox, for a good example of how this stage can be played
Bones0
Smash Legend
Even though they give you warning, you are still forced to do something about them, which you could not have accounted for. If you dropped to the bottom to avoid an opponent and the car signal comes up, you're forced to either approach or get hit, or at the very least shield. Had the car not come at that particular time (by sheer chance) then you would have had many more options. I don't think being able to do something about a hazard should be equated to accounting for it. You can't account for something random because there's no way of knowing for sure whether or not it will happen.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I mean, obviously if you are talking about Onett, you could just avoid the bottom of the stage altogether, but for the most part, avoiding stage hazards in Melee isn't a reliable strategy. It typically plays out by people doing their best to minimize the effects of a stage, but it can still result in luck. Like as a Falco, if I am comboing on Onett, I can account for the cars by trying to combo my opponent onto the houses or platforms, but if the platforms happen to randomly fall, I either have to end my combo (which is dumb that I should be affected by the stage by chance like that) or I have to get lucky and hope the car doesn't come by in time for me to finish my combo. That's what I meant when I was saying you can't fully account for them. Like Winston said a while ago when we were talking about the chess analogy, you can cut your losses, but that isn't equivalent to fully accounting for the hazard in the first place. It's still introducing a great deal of randomness.
Strife
Banned via Warnings
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- 784
Again this is bull****, KJ64 was legal at both Genesis and Apex. If the mbr is in fact reflecting how tournaments are run these days then why have they removed KJ64 from the stage list when it has never been removed before?
Fortress | Sveet
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Strife you realize this ruleset is being released to coincide with the upcoming APEX tournament, right? The same way the Pound rules were released along with Pound 4. Also, the genesis TOs asked us for our opinion on the rules and thats why Brinstar and Cruise were banned. Otherwise they would have just used the Pound rules.
The notion that circle camping is a problem on KJ64 is absurd. The only character that can beat fox on hyrule is fox. Is the only character that can beat jigs on 64 jigs? Hell no it's not, plenty of characters are viable on that stage, banning it because a few aren't is just arbitrarily catering towards those characters.
Fortress | Sveet
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I simply gave one example. The fact of the matter is that once a lead is gained, the stage makes it very easy to time someone out. Pink Shinobi did it to Rock Crock at Genesis 1. Armada has done it to Hbox (although he has also done it on other stages too). Rat has done it to Cosmo. Connor did it to G$. I'm sure there are plenty of others. I believe there are only a handful of characters that can actually prevent camping to time out on that stage. Fox, Falco, Sheik, Falcon... maybe Ganon.
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The point that people have been making isn't that there is something wrong with timing people out, but that there are stages which make this an unbreakable strategy.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Once again, this has already been discussed. Anywhere from 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the cast can be timed out on KJ, and it's not hard at all. There's literally almost no options for most characters. You don't even HAVE to use Fox/Falcon to time people out in some matches.
Pink Shinobi vs. Rock Crock
I'm sure there's more, but I don't know all the time out videos ever captured (iirc, Light, a Peach from AZ, timed out someone on KJ at Genesis 2).
Fortress | Sveet
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yeah lets just make hyrule legal again
Bones0
Smash Legend
lol like what matches? I can't wait to about all these time outs that no one bothered to mention.
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Armada vs Hbox =/= the entire metagame. Not saying that this is your implication, Hylian, but make sure that those aren't the only matches you can reference.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Honestly, Armada vs. Hbox is a fluke. I think almost everyone thought it was dumb for Hbox to try to time out Young Link, but he insisted on going to the biggest stages possible where both players wanted to time each other out. Obviously if both players are actively TRYING to time each other out, it is going to happen.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
You proved him wrong with one sentence. No wonder Bones0 is desperate. You know someone is desperate when they resort to ad hominem attacks. When they start insulting you, it means they have no argument and they know it. Why anyone would continue to argue their point once they are basically proven wrong is beyond me.
Yeah, let's just resort to slippery slope arguments. Hylian explicitly said that Hyrule should be banned, yet somehow saying that a stage should be banned is arguing for its inclusion? KJ64 is the only stage we are discussing at the moment. Don't try to weasel out of offering any substance to your point of view by changing the subject.
Bones0
Smash Legend
KJ64 was the only additional stage removed from the singles stage list, but they did it for a really great reason. Like I've said a bunch of times in this thread, IT IS REALLY OBVIOUS THAT TIMING OUT ON THE STAGE IS AN ISSUE.
If you are going to claim that the MBR is only removing KJ64 because they don't like it, then you should first explain how easy time outs are not an valid reason to ban it.
If you are going to claim that the MBR is only removing KJ64 because they don't like it, then you should first explain how easy time outs are not an valid reason to ban it.
Kal
Smash Champion
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- Dec 21, 2004
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- 2,973
If you're saying that winning too easily on that stage is a problem, that's fine. But there is nothing inherently wrong with timing your opponent out. That's the point Hylian is making, I'm sure. There is a difference between "this stage is broken because one or two characters become too powerful" and "this stage is broken because there is a winning strategy I think is gay."