Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012

[Fortress | Sveet]

Theres a difference between timing out the opponent in say, street fighter, where both players are constantly in reach of each other and it basically takes a lot of effort by the players to make the time out happen. In melee, you don't always have the ability to catch your opponent. If the faster character gets the lead and simply decides never to get caught, he wont. Stages that don't allow you to catch your opponent have always been banned because of this issue. Hyrule, Termina, Yoshi's Island 64 and probably others are all banned for this reason.

 

[Kal]

Stages which are banned should be banned because they are broken. Not because there's a winning strategy you dislike. Yes, Hyrule allows you to time out, but timing out on Hyrule makes Fox broken. I don't think timing out on KJ64 is anywhere near broken. In my opinion, players ban it simply because timing out becomes viable.

 

[Hylian]

I typed out a lot and then my browser closed yay.

Armada had the intent of timing out Hbox at Pound and Genesis, and succeeded at it in both. There is nothing wrong with that, the crowd actually enjoyed it and it showed a lot of creative play. Matches going to time is no reason to even consider banning a stage unless it's a centralizing strategy. With the amount of characters listed it really doesn't seem centralizing. Several of the top tier characters invalidate over half the cast, yet they aren't banned; when a stage does the same why is it banned? Someone earlier listed like 6 characters that could deal with it that's an insane amount of viable characters against a "broken" strategy.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It was me, and I list 4 with a possible 5th (even though i've seen ganon's get timed out on that stage). TBH spacies are probably the only characters totally immune to it because of their jumps and projectiles.

And no I dont believe Armada was directly intending to time hbox out in that match. Armada was engaging the whole time. If he decided to take the lead and time out on the first stock he could have stood on the top platform and jumped back and forth easily for the win. Instead he threw projectiles and attacked. In hind sight, i suppose citing that match as an example isn't good evidence.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Kal, it isn't about whether or not people like time outs (I don't think so, anyways). A Fox could almost easily time out a Peach if he really wanted to (on KJ64), because she has generally bad mobility, and her DJ is extremely slow. She's a top tier character; yet, she can be invalidated to a large degree by this strategy. Now I'm not necessarily defending the stage bans, I'm just letting you know that people's aversion to camping isn't the factor here (if it is, then maybe I'm being too naive, but I should think that there are grounded criteria for banning stages).

Sveet, I'm quite sure that Armada wanted to time Hbox out at Genesis. And Hbox let him. That's all there is to it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I still think if armada didn't want to lose a stock/get touched he wouldn't have. The way he played was very patient and projectile based, but he was almost always actively attacking hbox with projectiles and not simply evading indefinitely like he could.

 

[Bones0]

It's really pointless to even debate this. If you don't think timing out on KJ is broken, you clearly have just never dealt with the situation, which is FINE. All I ask is that you either try to time someone out or play someone who is trying to time you out, and you'll QUICKLY realize that MOST characters can't do **** against it. It's not "KJ is conducive to stalling," or even "Stalling is sometimes the better strategy," it is very much "Time out, or get timed out," at least when both players are actually playing to win. The result is people are basically forced to go Fox/Falco/Falcon to even compete, which is obvious over-centralization.

 

[Hylian]

So how does peach stop fox from timing her out on Dreamland? How are you sure that your anecdotal evidence isn't just wrong because of your lack of skill?

Not even to mention several of the examples shown on that stage didn't include Fox/Falco/Falcon and tournaments have not been dominated or even won by this strategy. I mean I beat Cosmo's zelda in tournament really badly by just running away and shooting lasers with fox on a starter stage, some characters are bad against it.

How many characters do the top tiers invalidate on ANY stage for that matter? How many characters are really viable at top play?

I would also imagine Fox/Falco/Falcon/Jigs/YL/Samus/Pikachu/Pichu would not being timed out easily on that stage just off the top of my head. How many characters can be bad on a stage before you have to ban it? The stage is better for faster characters and ones with good jumps and projectiles. Sounds like a perfect counterpick stage to me, I don't see it over centralizing anything from the tournament results I kept up with.

 

[ShroudedOne]

There's the fact that the highest platform on Dreamland isn't nearly as high as the two platforms on KJ64.

The point is that a stage shouldn't invalidate a character in and of itself. Dreamland doesn't invalidate Kirby vs Fox (or Peach vs Fox for that matter), because Kirby still has a chance to trap/catch Fox (however small that may seem), while stages lie KJ64 give Kirby no chance to catch Fox.

I do take your point on the strategies not being over centralizing in tournament play (because people still have this sense of "honorable play," but the fact that it could happen is strong enough of a reason (it seems to be, anyways)).

 

[Hylian]

Then you stumble into the area of banning stages because certain characters are not good on them, which is in and of itself just trying to balance the game. Yes, some characters are not good on some stages, and that makes them worse characters than others that are more versatile. Yes, if something becomes too over-centralizing then it should obviously be banned, but KJ64 hasn't shown this nearly as much as a stage like say Onett has. You can even look at stages like corneria, which are absolutely amazing for spacies and then watch mango uthrow rest M2K's fox(IIRC) onto the ship into a kill etc etc(not saying that proves anything just an example on ingenuity on a stage that is feared of being overcentralizing).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yeah and i've seen wobbles beat foxes on rainbow cruise. You call me out on anecdotal evidence then use it yourself.

KJ64 has circle camping and is abusable to time people out. My argument has no basis on "X character isn't good on it".

 

[Kal]

Sveet, he's not using the anecdotal evidence to prove anything. He's using his anecdotes to emphasize that you have not provided sufficient proof of what needs to be shown: that these stages are necessarily broken. He does not need to provide proof for what is regarded as the default stance.

 

[Bones0]

So how does peach stop fox from timing her out on Dreamland? How are you sure that your anecdotal evidence isn't just wrong because of your lack of skill?

If you're going to even compare KJ with DL, you obviously haven't tried stalling or been stalled against. The two side platforms are higher up than any other top platform, meaning most characters struggle to even reach it. On DL, Peach has reasonable options to actually hit Fox. And yeah, I'm pretty sure all of these fairly notable players wouldn't be incapable of landing hits for minutes on end if there was actually some feasible way to do it. LOL @ my lack of skill though. I've never been timed out in my life; a hint at that would be that I play Falco. On the flip side, however, I HAVE timed out a Marth with Falcon on KJ in a MM though, and Marth isn't even the worst off on that stage. I can say with pretty high certainty that I could easily beat Kage's Ganon on KJ despite the fact that he is way better than me. You can sit there and go "lol anecdotal evidence!" but if you would actually TRY it, it would become very clear there are no options any more than on Hyrule. Did anyone ask for tournament results of people winning tournaments by camping on Hyrule? No, because no one good enough to win a tournament is going to bother abusing a broken tactic, and everyone realizes how easy it would be to camp someone out just by trying it on their own for a game or 2.

Not even to mention several of the examples shown on that stage didn't include Fox/Falco/Falcon and tournaments have not been dominated or even won by this strategy. I mean I beat Cosmo's zelda in tournament really badly by just running away and shooting lasers with fox on a starter stage, some characters are bad against it.

The fact that stalling occurs with a lot of matchups is even more evidence that it's a broken stage. Peach timing out Ganon isn't even a feasible strategy on any other stage, but on KJ it becomes easy as ****.

How many characters do the top tiers invalidate on ANY stage for that matter? How many characters are really viable at top play?

I would also imagine Fox/Falco/Falcon/Jigs/YL/Samus/Pikachu/Pichu would not being timed out easily on that stage just off the top of my head. How many characters can be bad on a stage before you have to ban it? The stage is better for faster characters and ones with good jumps and projectiles. Sounds like a perfect counterpick stage to me, I don't see it over centralizing anything from the tournament results I kept up with.

A stage that forces people to choose from just 8 of the 25 characters or face auto-losing is alright with you? (ignoring the fact that Jiggs and Samus probably shouldn't even be on that list)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sveet, he's not using the anecdotal evidence to prove anything. He's using his anecdotes to emphasize that you have not provided sufficient proof of what needs to be shown: that these stages are necessarily broken. He does not need to provide proof for what is regarded as the default stance.

I'm not trying to 'prove' anything. This debate is not a proof. I simply gave reasons behind my decision to ban the stage (the stage was banned at nearly all of my monthly tournaments in chicago)

 

[Kal]

Fine, substitute my word "proof" with "evidence." Are you like 15 years old? Surely the point was made clear in my post that your "reasons behind [the] decision to ban the stage" were insufficient.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Hey, there are some savvy, intelligent 15 year olds, Kal.

 

[Bones0]

$10 says I can guess ShroudedOne's age. ;P

 

[ShroudedOne]

I bet you won't get it :D

But go on, try.

 

[Bones0]

I bet you won't get it :D

But go on, try.

Nineteen .

 

[ShroudedOne]

wat.

LOL. I guess I owe you ten dollars, then. =P I feel really smart.

Have I said it here before?

 

[Acryte]

I mean, obviously if you are talking about Onett, you could just avoid the bottom of the stage altogether, but for the most part, avoiding stage hazards in Melee isn't a reliable strategy. It typically plays out by people doing their best to minimize the effects of a stage, but it can still result in luck. Like as a Falco, if I am comboing on Onett, I can account for the cars by trying to combo my opponent onto the houses or platforms, but if the platforms happen to randomly fall, I either have to end my combo (which is dumb that I should be affected by the stage by chance like that) or I have to get lucky and hope the car doesn't come by in time for me to finish my combo. That's what I meant when I was saying you can't fully account for them. Like Winston said a while ago when we were talking about the chess analogy, you can cut your losses, but that isn't equivalent to fully accounting for the hazard in the first place. It's still introducing a great deal of randomness.

Yo on the discussion of Onett, the cars actually detract from the brokenness of camping the side of the screen for kills because the camper will be put at a disadvantage. If you are that close to the side you might as well consider yourself dead as if you didnt make it back on another stage also the central plats that fall down discourage circle tactics by at least removing some of the higher central platform options so that they are forced to jump over your character. The cars give warning before approaching and if you are on the inside you always have the option of DI into tech on the house. If you are comboing then time it out to utilize the cars in your pressure/combo. Also, if fox catches you in a wall infinite it wouldn't last longer than a PS transformation due to the cars.

 

[Bones0]

I took the average age of all the Smasher's in my state, and then I took into account that your location says you're in college. I have noticed that Peach mains tend to be younger on average, and then analyzed your typical vocabulary to approximate your intelligence. From there, I did a bit of further investigation to cross-reference with the rest of the data, and so I came to the conclusion that you must be approximately 19 years of age.






















Or maybe I just checked your profile.

 

[ShroudedOne]

.........Oh yeah. That.

Good detective work, Bones.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fine, substitute my word "proof" with "evidence." Are you like 15 years old? Surely the point was made clear in my post that your "reasons behind [the] decision to ban the stage" were insufficient.

Why do you have to be so standoffish? If you disagree with it, cool, you're welcome to your opinion. As a player I know that the stage is unfair and as a TO i understand its my job to limit unfairness in the ruleset. The other high level players and TOs agreed with me.

Leave kj64 on for your locals and stuff, it could be fun. This ruleset was designed to work at a national level, at the peak of the metagame. Circle camping might not be an issue at locals but we don't want it happening at nationals and internationals.

 

[Hylian]

Sveet I've never called you out or even really responded to you, so please stop responding to random lines in my posts that aren't directed at you. If you are going to respond to my posts do so in their entirety.

If you're going to even compare KJ with DL, you obviously haven't tried stalling or been stalled against.

You have obviously never seen me play or know what people recognize me in melee for.

The two side platforms are higher up than any other top platform, meaning most characters struggle to even reach it. On DL, Peach has reasonable options to actually hit Fox. And yeah, I'm pretty sure all of these fairly notable players wouldn't be incapable of landing hits for minutes on end if there was actually some feasible way to do it.

Yes, I'm aware that it's easier to time someone out on KJ64 than it is on Dreamland. I've also timed out peaches in tournament on dreamland, and I'm sure I could do it on KJ64. Because peach is BAD there. Why are you bringing up peach examples and not mario examples? Those characters are bad on that stage, it's really not a hard concept.

LOL @ my lack of skill though. I've never been timed out in my life; a hint at that would be that I play Falco.

Disregarding anything meaningful, this makes you sound scrubbish. Like one of those people who think they are amazing at melee because they have never lost when they just really haven't played anyone good. You don't have to respond to this if you don't want to, has nothing to do with the debate, your comment or mine.

On the flip side, however, I HAVE timed out a Marth with Falcon on KJ in a MM though, and Marth isn't even the worst off on that stage.

Good for you! I'm glad we are using examples from amazing players that people recognize and pointing out trends in gameplay that could be problematic as opposed to specific scenarios

Wait....

I can say with pretty high certainty that I could easily beat Kage's Ganon on KJ despite the fact that he is way better than me. You can sit there and go "lol anecdotal evidence!" but if you would actually TRY it, it would become very clear there are no options any more than on Hyrule.

There are plenty of more options than on hyrule. They just happen to happen on the character select screen as opposed to the one option on hyrule, which is fox.

Did anyone ask for tournament results of people winning tournaments by camping on Hyrule? No, because no one good enough to win a tournament is going to bother abusing a broken tactic, and everyone realizes how easy it would be to camp someone out just by trying it on their own for a game or 2.

I've played on hyrule in tournament and tested it quite extensively, I'm not a fan of just agreeing that a stage is broken without analyzing it, no matter how obvious it is. Despite that, I would say Hyrule doesn't need to have tournament results as it's very obviously broken and limits the cast to one character and would be banned at every tournament by every person. KJ64 has been legal for years and has never caused this problem or anything close to it.

The fact that stalling occurs with a lot of matchups is even more evidence that it's a broken stage. Peach timing out Ganon isn't even a feasible strategy on any other stage, but on KJ it becomes easy as ****.

I thought peach was bad on that stage yo. Make up your mind. On a serious note, then why would anyone play ganon vs peach on that stage?

A stage that forces people to choose from just 8 of the 25 characters or face auto-losing is alright with you? (ignoring the fact that Jiggs and Samus probably shouldn't even be on that list)

Yes, that seems balanced to me considering how many characters certain top tiers invalidate on their own. 8 characters is nothing to scoff at.

 

[Bones0]

Yo on the discussion of Onett, the cars actually detract from the brokenness of camping the side of the screen for kills because the camper will be put at a disadvantage. If you are that close to the side you might as well consider yourself dead as if you didnt make it back on another stage also the central plats that fall down discourage circle tactics by at least removing some of the higher central platform options so that they are forced to jump over your character. The cars give warning before approaching and if you are on the inside you always have the option of DI into tech on the house. If fox caught you in a wall infinite it wouldn't last longer than a PS transformation due to the cars.

Yeah, I know there are a lot of things you can do to avoid the cars, but the point is the stage is forcing you to move, which leads to you getting ****ed up from there. Just because someone goes the whole game without getting hit by the cars (or lava, or apples, or w/e) doesn't mean they don't randomly mess up a player.

To reference my previous wall of text about this, let's say we're both CF trying to dthrow tech chase. It's very possible for me to grab you and get a tech chase going without the cars interrupting at all. As a result, I am able to build up your percent and combo into a kill. Later in the match, you are in the same situation, but reversed. You are tech chasing me, but the car signal has appeared, and you only have seconds to work with. BEST CASE SCENARIO, you tech chase me until the last minute and I get hit by the car, but I tech and am able to reset the situation. This event was random, and it effectively cost you a kill that I had been awarded just seconds before. This is not fair, and can lead to inconsistent results. Had we been playing a best of 100 set instead of a best of 3, this effect may have been diluted enough that the chance of the car screwing one of us over would tend to be narrowed down to 50:50, but with sets where a stage is only played once, and with only 4 stocks to work with, it's unlikely that many games on Onett would result in the cars assisting each player equally.

 

[Kal]

Seriously, doesn't Sheik alone make only 8 of the 26 characters viable? Banning Sheik would be a greater step towards balance, in a meaningful sense, than banning stages like KJ64, Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise.

Sveet, I'm sorry I'm so standoffish. It's like, we're having a discussion, and when someone disagrees, it's like, just their opinion. I get that. I mean, you know things because you're all knowing, like God, minus the cool infanticidal part, but I'm just so standoffish because I've seen The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly way too many times. I know that standoff is only 5 minutes long, and this is like 21 pages long, so I'll have to work on that.

 

[Bones0]

You have obviously never seen me play or know what people recognize me in melee for.

The Hylian Lowrider: a difficult Samus technique where the player jumps from the ledge, fires a missile, and regrabs the ledge immediately after. Next question.

Yes, I'm aware that it's easier to time someone out on KJ64 than it is on Dreamland. I've also timed out peaches in tournament on dreamland, and I'm sure I could do it on KJ64. Because peach is BAD there. Why are you bringing up peach examples and not mario examples? Those characters are bad on that stage, it's really not a hard concept.

I've never heard of a Peach (let alone a good one) getting timed out on DL. I'd imagine that even against Fox, it would not be terribly difficult for someone to use a combination of floats and turnips to trap them. I brought up Peach vs. Fox because it's the example you gave. A Mario example works just as well. Mario gets timed out on KJ64, but not DL. This is true for at least 2/3rds of the cast, and it's barely even debatable for most characters.

Good for you! I'm glad we are using examples from amazing players that people recognize and pointing out trends in gameplay that could be problematic as opposed to specific scenarios

Wait....

I have already posted all of the examples that I know of from good players. You still haven't addressed them by explaining how it was not impossible for those players to win given their character selection.

There are plenty of more options than on hyrule. They just happen to happen on the character select screen as opposed to the one option on hyrule, which is fox.

I don't see why you could use Falco/Falcon/Sheik on Hyrule. Stalling on KJ64 isn't as bad as Hyrule, but that certainly doesn't make it okay.

I've played on hyrule in tournament and tested it quite extensively, I'm not a fan of just agreeing that a stage is broken without analyzing it, no matter how obvious it is. Despite that, I would say Hyrule doesn't need to have tournament results as it's very obviously broken and limits the cast to one character and would be banned at every tournament by every person. KJ64 has been legal for years and has never caused this problem or anything close to it.

Except it has caused the problem of stalling. Again, refer to the examples I posted and explain where those players went wrong.

I thought peach was bad on that stage yo. Make up your mind. On a serious note, then why would anyone play ganon vs peach on that stage?

Peach is only bad on it when her opponent is faster than her. It's the same thing as Hyrule. Fastest character wins. Someone would play Ganon because that's who they main, and I don't think most people would agree that a stage should ever force a player to change characters to even have a fighting chance (LITERALLY, not "omg bad matchup!"). If you are really okay with that, then every single player will have to have a pocket Fox/Falco/Falcon in order to prevent themselves from being taken to KJ every set.

Yes, that seems balanced to me considering how many characters certain top tiers invalidate on their own. 8 characters is nothing to scoff at.

Top tiers are not untouchable gods that low tiers are virtually incapable of beating. But that IS what it's like playing a fast character who is stalling on KJ. A Ness player can legitimately fight, mindgame, and defeat a Fox on all the legal stages, but on KJ he can't even contest Fox's victory. If you can't see the difference between the two, then it seems we'll never agree.

 

[Acryte]

Leave kj64 on for your locals and stuff, it could be fun. This ruleset was designed to work at a national level, at the peak of the metagame. Circle camping might not be an issue at locals but we don't want it happening at nationals and internationals.

That pinkshinobi match was pretty lame:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5u39LxgyuI

Jiggs got good aerial mobility but still isnt enough to effectively chase in KJ64 and this is Mango smarts we're talkin about. If anyone is gonna figure out how to punish its Mango. It's just real hard if they wanna run.

meh while I'm on the subject though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNwlB4bGYvw (Pink Shinobi vs Radical Reactor)

Sure that was kinda gay but that's just samus vs peach which always is campy, plus its PS who plays pretty lame in the first place. However, Klap trap... not really an issue at all. Didn't really take away options or force options, overall it had very little effect on the game. Just an example.

People playin smart on japes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7y-uDry-QQ&feature=related (ken & Isai vs taj & forward)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn6-WX8gDd8&feature=related (Mew2king & Cactuar vs Darkrain & Wife)

Smart people playin dumb on japes (though still ******):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUBCMhg9HZY (Aniolas & Armada vs Q & C)

Klap Trap Smash DI:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_4hZpdb5FU

Also note that the Klaptrap can make you ricochet. You can tech off the stage or the outside plats.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm liking the discussion that Hylian has put forth about Kongo Jungle 64's timing out. Keep it up guys. Why did it take 21 pages for useful discussion to occur?

 

[Kal]

Top tiers are not untouchable gods that low tiers are virtually incapable of beating. But that IS what it's like playing a fast character who is stalling on KJ. A Ness player can legitimately fight, mindgame, and defeat a Fox on all the legal stages, but on KJ he can't even contest Fox's victory. If you can't see the difference between the two, then it seems we'll never agree.

I don't want to argue for Hylian, but I felt the need to interject here: you're clearly just arbitrarily balancing the game when you make arguments like this. Ness can never contest Sheik's victory on any of the stages, save for maybe by exercising an esoteric strategy on a counterpick stage. Should we ban Sheik?

Individual characters do not determine balance in a large enough degree to warrant bans. It's too bad that Ness can't beat Fox at all on certain stages, but that is not an inherently bad thing. It's just a character weakness. On the other hand, if there were only 4 viable characters against Fox on Kongo Jungle, you'd have a point, and the only thing we could do from there is argue on the number (i.e., the cutoff) of characters who should be viable on any given stage.

If, however, you feel 8 is too few a number, you're inherently contradicting yourself by not banning Sheik. We can go through the numbers and note that, at high level play, the following characters have a chance against Sheik:

1) Fox
2) Falco
3) Jigglypuff
4) Sheik
5) Marth
6) Peach
7) C. Falcon (detestably)
8) Ice Climbers

You can possibly introduce another character or two (depending on what your threshold for viability is), but it should be clear that a high level Sheik will beat any Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Samus, Pikachu, Mario, Luigi, DK, Link, Y. Link, Zelda, Roy, Mewtwo, Yoshi, Mr. Game & Watch, Ness, Bowser, Kirby and Pichu as often, on every stage, as Fox will beat Ness on KJ.

If you want to get rid of the stage, but not Sheik, either I'm off on the matchups (which I'm willing to admit is possible, though I sincerely doubt), or you're creating a contrived rule along the lines of "stages can't make viable only 8 characters, but characters can."

 

[Strong Badam]

Banning characters != banning stages. Sheik beats X character 80% of the time on every stage. Fox beats X character 80% of the time on Y stage, but 60% of the time on Every Other Legal Stage. Why is banning Sheik even considered in this example?

 

[Kal]

As a general rule, I just don't bother reading arguments presented by people who feel the need to provide input along the lines of "great, after 21 pages we finally have good discussion."

 

[Strife]

Kal you forgot Peach in that list.

 

[Divinokage]

If you're going to even compare KJ with DL, you obviously haven't tried stalling or been stalled against. The two side platforms are higher up than any other top platform, meaning most characters struggle to even reach it. On DL, Peach has reasonable options to actually hit Fox. And yeah, I'm pretty sure all of these fairly notable players wouldn't be incapable of landing hits for minutes on end if there was actually some feasible way to do it. LOL @ my lack of skill though. I've never been timed out in my life; a hint at that would be that I play Falco. On the flip side, however, I HAVE timed out a Marth with Falcon on KJ in a MM though, and Marth isn't even the worst off on that stage. I can say with pretty high certainty that I could easily beat Kage's Ganon on KJ despite the fact that he is way better than me. You can sit there and go "lol anecdotal evidence!" but if you would actually TRY it, it would become very clear there are no options any more than on Hyrule. Did anyone ask for tournament results of people winning tournaments by camping on Hyrule? No, because no one good enough to win a tournament is going to bother abusing a broken tactic, and everyone realizes how easy it would be to camp someone out just by trying it on their own for a game or 2.



The fact that stalling occurs with a lot of matchups is even more evidence that it's a broken stage. Peach timing out Ganon isn't even a feasible strategy on any other stage, but on KJ it becomes easy as ****.

Ganon vs Peach on KJ should not be the evidence used to prove that KJ is broken. Everyone seems to point out again and again the Rockcrock vs Pink Shinobi match when I thought Rockcrock played it totally wrong because he was not willing to approach. I personally think it's one of the stage that Ganon clearly beats Peach on so I don't really understand it myself, Peach can't even edgeguard Ganon as good as the regular stages and Ganon having more opportunity to get on stage can be devastating. I'm just saying Peach loses some of her strengths vs Ganon on KJ while Ganon doesn't really lose anything for setups and things like that. He actually gets stronger because his recovery is buffed.

As for you Bones, I'd like to see you try that camping vs me on KJ.

 

[Strife]

^ Good point Kage saying Peach vs Ganon is broken on KJ64 because of this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k

Is the same as saying that Fox can't beat Shiek on dreamland because of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_hGcWjTKA

 

[Divinokage]

It's not, my point is that because the stage is considered a CP then obviously some match-ups will shift towards someone right?

I don't really understand what you are trying to point out.

 

[Strife]

I'm saying that a single match doesn't prove a specific tactic is broken because it's very likely an opponent may not know the correct way to counter an unorthodox strategy.

 

[Kal]

Kal you forgot Peach in that list.

Thanks. I added Peach. <3

 

[Divinokage]

I'm saying that a single match doesn't prove a specific tactic is broken because it's very likely an opponent may not know the correct way to counter an unorthodox strategy.

And who's fault is that? The stage or the player?