Teams Tier List: version 1

[Lovage]

ic's are god awful in teams

definitely the worst good character for teams by far

 

[xbombr]

ic's are god awful in teams

definitely the worst good character for teams by far

They're not that bad as long as you aren't up against double Fox or something and Nana keeps getting shined offstage.

They're significantly worse than in singles, but I'm not going to say that they're the worst of everyone. MAYBE they're the worst out of what might be considered "competitively viable" characters though.

Edit: They should probably be above Luigi and Mario. >_>

 

[PEEF!]

Edit: They should probably be above Luigi and Mario. >_>

Thats all we're trying to say haha

 

[SpeedyJ]

Wow I thought Marth would be higher.. At least higher than Ganondorf..

 

[Armada]

LightsOutAce: Okay in some situations Falco is better in fox when it comes to approach and sometimes Fox is better =).

 

[Mokumo]

so now that we've figured the math out xD

best team = fox fox
2 = fox puff
3 = fox peach
4 = fox sheik
5 = fox falcon
...

 

[Divinokage]

Double Fox is not the best team..

 

[KishPrime]

Not even close, I don't think. But I think he's joking.

How do you pick one team and say "that's the best?" Not sure I can do that at all.

 

[Fletch]

Unless its Fox/Puff

 

[KishPrime]

I still think Fox/Puff gets countered by some teams, so I cannot unequivocally agree to that.

 

[Fletch]

Not trying to say you're wrong, but what teams do well against that?

 

[Deleted member]

I firmly think Fox/Peach is the best team.

 

[Walt]

I don't think there is enough data to choose the best team. Not because of varying player skill but because of varying teamwork which is much harder to judge. Calculating different character teams, different players, different amounts and styles of teamwork, and different attitudes towards how to play teams per character makes teams possibly multiple times harder to quantify than singles.

 

[leffen]

Fox - Peach is NOT the best team... peach is one of fox's worst high tier partners (anyone who have played it should know... i've with armada fyi).

Fox-Fox is first along with Fox-Puff.

 

[KishPrime]

I've already mentioned a few of them earlier...like Falco/Falcon and Ganon/Sheik. Any teams that can both rack up damage and survive well have a good chance of killing Jiggs/Fox faster than Jiggs/Fox can kill them.

Basically, their weaknesses and strengths align a bit too much. Jiggs/Fox are both not great damage dealers and on many stages they both die at low%. If they can't land the edgeguard, upsmash, or rest at a critically low%, their key team contributions (low% killing) offset each other and their liabilities become apparent. Jiggs/Fox just does not rack up damage fast enough and is too dependent on rests/edgeguards for extremely low % kills to keep up, which are inherently inconsistent. That's not to say I don't think they are one of the best 5 or 10 teams, though. Their killing power is just that good. And heck, just because you have counters doesn't mean you aren't still the best team.

Ultimately, my theory is that you want teammates with strengths that offset the other's weaknesses and fill the key roles of "point/stage-control," "damage dealer," "stock-saver/damage-soak," and "finisher." Strength augmenting strength leads to diminishing returns. Just because you have two characters that can kill the opponents, on average, at 30% less than others does not mean you'll be now able to kill them 60% earlier. Two characters that are extremely good at low-starting% combos can't both deliver them to opponents during the same stock. Two characters that are extremely good at surviving to high% may negate their advantage if one is always off the stage recovering, allowing 2v1s on their teammate.

I think Umbreon may have a good alternative with Fox/Peach. For a more esoteric team, I still would like to see more Falco/Falcon, as I think that Falco fills the first two roles nicely, Falcon can play the third, and they can both hit the fourth. But I think with the sheer number of combinations, all teams are going to have counters.

 

[Redd]

I'm just going to say, from teaming with Chu, ICs are soooo low, wow.

Good ****ing ICs can take on 2 people at once. I'm not even kidding. But really, Zelda? Let's think.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

The most inaccurate part of this list is still Pikachu's placement. I don't think there is any argument that she is worse than Zelda or Samus in teams.

 

[Beat!]

Axe wanted Pikachu to move up lol. Read the first page.

 

[Dimitris]

You should use the melee icons for your list in the first post.

To be honest, we had a very difficult time ranking Yoshi/Roy/Link and an even harder time with GW/DK/Ness/M2/Pichu, so more research and opinions are needed on those characters abilities in teams before I'm comfortable with where they're ranked.

Bum said this about DK in teams (it was 2007 though):
"Wow, it is so tough to play Donkey Kong in teams. For me it shouldn’t be called teams it should be called 3 versus 1. It’s so easy to hit him. Not to sound cocky but the way I handle him in teams is great. I manage to avoid hits and if I do get hit I DI really well. If I don’t do this then whatever team I’m on would lose before the announcer says go. (laughs) Seriously." -MLG interview

Strong Bad / MEXICAN / NJzFinest maybe could tell more about present day doubles.

 

[Divinokage]

Fox - Peach is NOT the best team... peach is one of fox's worst high tier partners (anyone who have played it should know... i've with armada fyi).

Fox-Fox is first along with Fox-Puff.

Worst? Sheik, Marth.. are most likely worst than Peach in teams with Fox. There's simply less teams combo happening with Fox/Sheik. You realize that Peach Dsmash in teams is ridiculous.. just with Ganon, I always used to do Peach Dsmash into Fair, ok already at least 70% dmg. If you can master your positioning and flank in between Peach and Fox, you can definitely lay out some ****, that's just how it is. Peach in teams is the character where you can do the most BS combos. They also both survive and can help each other extremely well. There's just barely any weaknesses to exploit in that team because if you go for Peach then Fox is going to be in your face, even vice versa. Just because you teamed with Armada doesn't mean that you'll automatically win, your synergy with him might be weak. If you looked at teams like Bam and Vwins, PC + Cort.. they always placed Top 3. If that's not good enough then idk what is.. I've seen some Fox/Peach destroy faces pretty easily as it is so.. so hard to approach. Also like Mango and PC, won right? Fox/Jiggs.. Mango and Lucky.. again.. well now they do more Fox/Falco but ya. (Team Faceroll) Ya I admit Fox/Falco is pretty damn good.. prob in the top teams. PP/Lozr did really well. To me.. Fox/Falco, Fox/Jiggs and Fox/Peach.. would be in my top 3 teams. Look at results!

 

[gm jack]

I think Fox- Sheik works really well. I agree that there aren't many extended team combos, but Sheik's ability to launch opponents and to kill quickly with fair off a lot of Fox's move set means they can support each other really well. Keeping the team combos shorter keeps the opening for the opponents partner to disrupt to a minimum. More than that, they are both really quick at moving around the stage and as such can set up a lot of 2v1 situations, and avoid the same happening in return.

If Peach could move as quickly or disrupt with a projectile as well, she'd be a bit better. However, with her slow movement speed and limited projectile, there are times where she can be on the wrong side of a stage like FD and be helpless is assisting the team mate in either breaking a comob/ edge guard or joining in for a quick team combo.

 

[Divinokage]

I think Fox- Sheik works really well. I agree that there aren't many extended team combos, but Sheik's ability to launch opponents and to kill quickly with fair off a lot of Fox's move set means they can support each other really well. Keeping the team combos shorter keeps the opening for the opponents partner to disrupt to a minimum. More than that, they are both really quick at moving around the stage and as such can set up a lot of 2v1 situations, and avoid the same happening in return.

If Peach could move as quickly or disrupt with a projectile as well, she'd be a bit better. However, with her slow movement speed and limited projectile, there are times where she can be on the wrong side of a stage like FD and be helpless is assisting the team mate in either breaking a comob/ edge guard or joining in for a quick team combo.

That's why team strategy is so important.. I think you are overlooking too many things with what makes an awesome team.

 

[gm jack]

Strategy is obviously important, but unless you completely dominate a game, you are very unlikely to be able to keep to it perfectly. As such, your strategy may be able to reduce the weaknesses of each characters, but there are going to be times when you are forced out of position, or otherwise not where you ideally should be. At that point, flexibility in being able to adapt to the situation is a huge advantage.

Fox is the best teams character because he is so flexible and is able to work in nearly any role well. I don't feel Peach has that ability to turn bad situations into her favour as well as what I consider the top 3 characters (Fox, Jiggs, Sheik), which limits her. She is still great in teams and can be a huge asset, but I feel like she is more likely to caught out of position and unable to recover than others.

As you said though, strategy is a hug part, and within maybe the top 5/6 teams characters, it can be so well balanced that strategy is the over riding factor.

 

[KishPrime]

How well you can stick to your strategy is also a measure of how good you are. Yes, it's always going to break down eventually, but how fast can you get back into it? Great teams can reset the positioning and control the pace and matchups.

90% of the teams we played against would lose just because they'd let themselves get split up into 1v1 matchups where they were either the worst player or in a bad character matchup, AND THEY NEVER SWITCH. I remember this happening even against top players that were better than us; we'd just split it up so that we'd have a character advantage on one side (usually my brother who played Fox, but not always) and then the other person would literally just stall the other side and avoid conflict so long as they had a disavantageous matchup.

We always preferred more of a chaos setup, but if teams let us do this to them, it's not hard to win.

 

[Divinokage]

When you say unable to recover, in what situation? Peach is able to stall if Fox is in deep trouble.. I mean when Peach has no way to help Fox recover. But then no one wants to play close to the ledge vs Fox/Peach... and so the battle is more focused towards the center, but even then with that team so much crap can happen, it's very unpredictable sometimes... the combos and stuff. Letting Peach alone do her thing is really bad to begin with.. but then Fox is always there to help Peach. You see? There's simply a lot less situations where they are open. The team together I think works wonders. The matchup with Fox/Peach very often forces the other 2 to do 1v1 vs 1v1.. in which you don't want to do since that's bad usually but still.. I think Fox/Peach forces a lot of unfavorable situations for the other 2 way too often. I could definitely get into this more.. but man teams are complicated. =)

Like if one of them puts anyone off-stage, they can easily do a double edge-guard which is faceroll. Dsmash into edgeguard lol.. and then the other guy should be hesitant to approach a team like that. lol.

Note: This is not perfect play or anything, I talk this about experience in which I faced Fox/Peach so many freaking times in finals or LF.

 

[gm jack]

By recover I mean get back to where your tactics say you should be (e.g. for a falco vs. sheik, away from the edge).

I don't disagree that Peach is a great teams character. I just think sheik is noticeably better.

 

[KishPrime]

This is an interesting comparison, because I think they're pretty comparable. Depending on opponents, damage output is usually a bit higher for Peach, and killing is a bit better for Sheik. Against space animals, I think you'll be slightly better off with Peach, and against most other characters, I think Sheik would probably be better.

 

[Divinokage]

For some reason, I think that Falco would be a better partner for Sheik.. Idk why though. lol. More nasty combos?

 

[KishPrime]

My best guess as to why you feel that way - Sheik needs more damage from her partner to be more effective at killing. It's a tradeoff - I think you lose some kill power switching from Fox to Falco, but gain some damage output and increase Sheik's ability to kill.

Not sure I can say which is better.

 

[Divinokage]

My best guess as to why you feel that way - Sheik needs more damage from her partner to be more effective at killing. It's a tradeoff - I think you lose some kill power switching from Fox to Falco, but gain some damage output and increase Sheik's ability to kill.

Not sure I can say which is better.

Haha ya, there are way too many ambiguous things in teams. In general, it strongly depends on strategy, synergy and character combination.. but already all that requires so much... oh well..

 

[gm jack]

This is an interesting comparison, because I think they're pretty comparable. Depending on opponents, damage output is usually a bit higher for Peach, and killing is a bit better for Sheik. Against space animals, I think you'll be slightly better off with Peach, and against most other characters, I think Sheik would probably be better.

Against spacies, I would have said sheik, almost entirely for her gimping game, which off sets her slightly lower damage output.

 

[Deleted member]

Fox/Peach is essentially the same as Fox/Jigglypuff except:

1. Fox/Jigglypuff has some awkward issues in its own and

2. Peach can handle an opposing Fox MUCH better than Jigglypuff can.

Both fox and peach basically have no counters in teams and are very effective individually against the other teams characters worth mentioning (falco sheik jigglypuff falcon, and themselves). Both characters have simplistic edge guarding that favors scenarios where planning isn't really an option, and both can rack up damage really fast. Jigglypuff can get a momentum killing rest in a critical moments and her recovery is almost strictly better than peach's, but I think what peach brings to the team is still more useful, especially when in some matches there is no opportunity to save your teammate or going for a rest simply isn't a good idea. Peach's many benefits are almost always present.

As for the peach vs sheik thing, I agree with what kishprime said, except he forgot the qualifier where an opposing team should ALWAYS have a fox making peach just flat out better.

I really can't think of a reason not to have a fox on a team unless you simply can't find a good fox player, and by then you should just play fox in teams yourself.

pocket fox and pocket peach are so easy for talented players and they're so good in teams specifically together, I can't justify not playing them seriously.

 

[gm jack]

What makes you say Peach can handle fox better than puff? I thought Fox was Peach's hardest counter and puff went even/slight loss to fox.

 

[X1-12]

I think he means that due to the circumstances in teams, Peach can hold a fox back much better Jiggs. Yeah Jiggs could just camp or run away but that leaves the partner in a bad position, peach is much more likely to be able to deal with a fox which is right in her face. I also think you're overrating the importance of breaking up team combos from across the stage, in the Fox Peach team, Fox is going to be playing pretty safe with platform camping etc, and as well as that if he sees the Peach getting hit to the otherside and he is about to get 2v1d, he still has the option to just run away, avoiding the team combo altogether

 

[Deleted member]

What makes you say Peach can handle fox better than puff? I thought Fox was Peach's hardest counter and puff went even/slight loss to fox.

Peach sucks vs Fox in singles because fox can contain her and basically kill her whenever he wants. However, given 2 more players on the screen, Fox's containment game doesn't really work. Teams is also MUCH more centric on simple 2-3 hit combos or solid reliable things, so things like nair oos, dash attack to something easy, or reliable thing in and out of downsmash can all wreck fox pretty quickly. more importantly, those situations are likely to come up very often, as opposed to jigglypuff waiting for or baiting a rest.

peach is also amazing at breaking up that 2 vs 1 vs 1 situation I went into early in on this topic with simple regular peach plays like FC aerial to dsmash or just jumping into the **** to save the teammate. just solid, aggressive peach play with good decision-making is a really strong teammate.

 

[KishPrime]

I agree with Umbreon.

Tink and Iggy were mean during the first Midwest Circuit. Tink would just charge in blindly and Iggy would save him if things went bad. Rinse and repeat.

 

[gm jack]

Peach sucks vs Fox in singles because fox can contain her and basically kill her whenever he wants. However, given 2 more players on the screen, Fox's containment game doesn't really work. Teams is also MUCH more centric on simple 2-3 hit combos or solid reliable things, so things like nair oos, dash attack to something easy, or reliable thing in and out of downsmash can all wreck fox pretty quickly. more importantly, those situations are likely to come up very often, as opposed to jigglypuff waiting for or baiting a rest.

peach is also amazing at breaking up that 2 vs 1 vs 1 situation I went into early in on this topic with simple regular peach plays like FC aerial to dsmash or just jumping into the **** to save the teammate. just solid, aggressive peach play with good decision-making is a really strong teammate.

But other than the Dsmash, Sheik does all of those things just as well if not better. Sheik also benefits hugely from the nerf to Fox's containment in teams, but is able to do the same role with better range, quicker moves and faster movement.

(For the record, Peach is my secondary and I think she's the 4th best team character, just behind sheik. I just think it is a case of "everything you can do, I can do better". There are just very few sheik's who are good at doubles i.e. m2k, and that is about it)

 

[KishPrime]

I think Peach still outdamages Sheik in some situations (stages/opponents) and does a slightly better job of crowd control, though I agree with your premise that Sheik is more versatile and better overall in teams. I think I said something earlier in this thread to that effect, so that's probably not new.

Shrug. So much of teams is tactics and chaos control that it's really hard to break it down by character.

 

[Deleted member]

sheik has some issues with approaching, fox, and low damage output. she has some benefits over peach, but I still think peach is better.

 

[Brookman]

peach is a tank, except vs. drill shine up smash.