Guide Taj's Character Match-Up Discussion

[DarkDragoon]

Sometimes after I U-Throw Falcon I like to fire a shadowball to chase him for me, especially if he thinks I'm going to follow and he DIs away.

Sometimes I UAir though...but U-Throw on Falcon is just bad.
-DD

 

[KAOSTAR]

Whats the most reliable follow-up after an uthrow on Falcon? It seems like I can never get the fair to hit. He always jumps out.

When it comes to ftilt...I've seen people use it on firefoxes and other edge-guards, but it usually trades or loses for me. Should I always be going for the dsmash vs. spacies?

m2 has great recovery and it should be used to edgeguard. Dont do it everytime but if you go off the stage the percentage at which you get kills is much lower.

on spacies, if they look like they are sweet spotting the edge you are better off using the super ultra ninja cookies. Its faster and looks cleaner, Sad thing about dsmash is that at lower-higher mids it doesnt kill if they dI decently and you have to time it which can be hard if they switch the timing on you. Also if they dont sweet spot dont be afraid to use Fsmash, its got a huge hitbox(weaker tho), pivot these to stop approaches or do em outta WD(works good if ur back is turned)

If they are off the stage a simple backair or two *****. Also, on FD you can grab ledge and then grab them as they land on the stage.

if they tech towards the edge you can tech chase with dtilt to ftilt to get them off the stage

falcon will usually get out of any combos starting with up tthrow. depending on the DI you can try nair or djc uair but uptilting them as they land works really well with timing.

 

[SDC]

only upthrow falcon at low-midlow percent (0%-30ish%), as that is the only time it can be actually useful.

If he is at 0%, then go for some sort of combo, like fair if your timing is perfect, or close-up-uairs that you can chain. If he is above 0%, then you probably should go for uair, confusion, bair, nair, or *gasp* dair O_o (if you're feeling lucky lol ).

As for spacie edgeguard, if they try to illusion/firefox/bird right at you, either fsmash (works for me ), ftilt, or (if you're feeling extra fancy today) wavedash backwards grab . Practice this timing, if you screw it up he's gonna get an easy hit on you.
If they're going for the ledge, either dsmash (if timed well, can be devastating. And if they tech it, just smash twice, or if they are far enough away, fsmash after they tech, or ftilt or something lol, whichever is applicable), or steal their cookies (teleport to the edge).

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think m2 has room to be flashy but not substituting for effectiveness. With the exception that they are at killing percent from throws I wouldnt want to grab them away from the ledge in this situation.

Fthrow isnt going to kill and if u WD back to grab then dthrow ftilt, which is your bread and butter on the edge of the stage to start goin for that stock, is less effective because they will have some stage to cover them selves.

If you want to punish them with a grab for goin straight at you then just grab their lil ***** ***** out of the illusion or the firefox. M2 has the grab range and swagger to grab them out of both without any trouble, just need some timing. That way you can at least dthrow ftilt and proceed to ****.

 

[RaynEX]

I'm omitting dtilt->ftilt from my game. I didn't know how useful it was. Getting the hang of uair combos has been a confounding experience as well. It has such a weird hitbox, and usually I'm not sure where it will send them and how I can follow up with it. It feels like it should hit behind him or something. grr

Thanks everyone for your help. Those were some really informative posts. I'll be sure to fsmash a bit more and steal as much of my opponent's cookies as possible.

Would it be alright if I posted some matches in here for advice? I want to spend time on this character. Mewtwo is so **** fun to use.

 

[SDC]

I think m2 has room to be flashy but not substituting for effectiveness. With the exception that they are at killing percent from throws I wouldnt want to grab them away from the ledge in this situation.

Fthrow isnt going to kill and if u WD back to grab then dthrow ftilt, which is your bread and butter on the edge of the stage to start goin for that stock, is less effective because they will have some stage to cover them selves.

If you want to punish them with a grab for goin straight at you then just grab their lil ***** ***** out of the illusion or the firefox. M2 has the grab range and swagger to grab them out of both without any trouble, just need some timing. That way you can at least dthrow ftilt and proceed to ****.

Dude you know I was half jokin right? Only reason you would want to wavedash backwards grab is if they were at upthrow killing percentage, or if you were extremely confident in your tech chase game. As I said it's just to be fancy (that word usage should have given it away as kind of a joke lol), not really that effective .

 

[KAOSTAR]

raynex-sure post vids and ppl will be happy to give feedback

sean-actually I didnt know u were joking at all since raynex was asking for advice, I would feel terrible if he started trying to edgeguard with WD back to grab instead of punishing them for missing a sweet spot.

I wouldnt call that fancy, Id do that to mess wit my opponent and show them how inferior their character selection was to mine lol.

 

[Shadow Huan]

Counter Pick magic #'s are almost done. I think I missed one though.

Mushroom Kingdom 2 is legal in teams right???

 

[KAOSTAR]

Counter Pick magic #'s are almost done. I think I missed one though.

Mushroom Kingdom 2 is legal in teams right???

on many lists but often banned. m2 would get ***** there lol. The shine would just kill him if u DI away lol.

but yea do it I suppose

 

[Shadow Huan]

Yeah, Mewtwo has a hard time there. I'll do it tonight. as a forewarning, Mute City and Rainbow Cruise will be a liitle less specific than some of the others, and I didn't even bother with Poke' Floats lol.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yeah, Mewtwo has a hard time there. I'll do it tonight. as a forewarning, Mute City and Rainbow Cruise will be a liitle less specific than some of the others, and I didn't even bother with Poke' Floats lol.

just give a range from a high point to a low point that you use,

 

[Shadow Huan]

On coneria the Magic # for Marth with appropriate DI is:

108% in the middle of the ship.

92% at the top of the fin.

126% on the tail section.

A little less than 108% @ the front of the ship ect ect.

More to come.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Wanna talk about the zelda matchup by any chance lol

 

[Gimpyfish62]

there is a ZELDA in washington?

gross.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Well , there is Tim. Ive found his zelda to be decent, but he isnt as experienced of a player. He has good knowledge about zelda but overall skill is lacking.

 

[Shadow Huan]

Zelda is a dumb match-up. I've never won against a Zelda who was properly spacing the Fair or Bair.

it really doesn't feel like you can approach Zelda becuase she's a "get off of me *****" character, and the fair and bair outspace you, and your tail and big big hurtbox makes you a moving target. it feels like your playing a SLOW Falcon who can just camp you and knee in both directions, except the lightning kicks have better reach and come out faster than anything you have. (Fair is 8 frames and the bair is 5 frames; the bair is on par with your Fair but it reaches miles further.)

now dispite all my negitivity it's actually winnable: it really is about punishing missed techs and beating the **** out of her when you find an opening. also GET HER ABOVE YOU. Zelda has very few options against a spaced Uair, and once she's above you you can get creative.

Zelda dies as early as you do from uthrow and the lucky Fair, but in order for Mewtwo to be able to win its gotta be a long and slow battle of attrition. you must find a way to outcamp her.

Big stages are your friend in this case.

Anyone got stuff to add? i leave the floor open.

 

[Taj278]

I disagree, the only experience I have against a decent Zelda was Mike Lenetia at Pound 4. Zelda is approachable, you just have to pick her apart every time to do it. It is a long match, but as long as you don't make critical mistakes and run into kicks, should be a solid win.

 

[Shadow Huan]

I disagree, the only experience I have against a decent Zelda was Mike Lenetia at Pound 4. Zelda is approachable, you just have to pick her apart every time to do it. It is a long match, but as long as you don't make critical mistakes and run into kicks, should be a solid win.

yes but if the Zelda plays the match SMART, it's campy beyond words.

I think I also said something about capitalizing on openings and mistakes lol.

I am still of the opinion that when she's above you you've got the most safe offensive options because her options are sorta limited to in front of her or behind. above her is also sorta safe-ish... its been a while since I played the Zelda near me though, so I can't say much on that. thoughts?

i would've liked to have seen you play the match-up @ Pound 4. was it recorded? It seems like the type of match-up I could take notes off of.

 

[Taj278]

The matches weren't recorded. I was alternating with N64 and Mike for like 2 hours. I didn't emphasize what I meant clearly enough. The difference between just capitalizing and picking apart to me is the idea that Zelda can't really do anything about it. Mewtwo has superior options in this case because he can actually force Zelda to perform actions that would compromise her turtle position. Since we're human, we make mistakes on the approach, but it is still executable.

Against Mike, a slow approach with shadow ball, shield poke with tilt, high shadow balls when zelda is in the air, wavedash into downtilt or shield depending on stage position and the players actions, Zelda is forced to make some kind of decision, either shield or rising aerial depending on your actions and you just hold onto the pressure when Zelda is airborne with your projectile. You can bait Zelda's neutral B with shadow ball charges and cancels, you have all kinds of little feints you can do to Zelda to force her into taking some kind of damage. He was pretty campy in every match, but it never got harder to execute against him as we kept playing, if anything it only got easier because I had solid wins that entire time against him. (2-3 stocked every match)

I agree, in my match-up post on Zelda, she is weakest when she is directly above, the trick is getting her there, but my point isn't that it is difficult, because it can be, the point is that it is possible and consistently executable. I'll correct myself and say that she is strong in front, because she has the threat of the quick aerial and multi hit forward smash, but those are often nullified by forcing her to make defensive actions with combinations of your weak projectile, tilts, and moving in and out of grab range. Zelda is one of the characters that can't parry attacks very effectively either, kind of the same situation as Ness, except she has a more spammable finisher.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Lol, I agree. I was just looking at the matchup thread, they are hating. They have no idea what they are talking about.

two days ago they were saying shadow ball isnt even a viable option because its slow and easy to powershield. How can you make them see the light(deep purple **** light)? lmao.

 

[N64]

Tai's M2 4stocked my sheik T-T. and consistently 2-3 stocked my pika heh. Was fun times, hope we get to play again Taj!

But yeah, Zelda v. M2 matchup seems like it relies moreso on M2's strat than Zelda's. It's a lot of whether or not he can get in on zelda (which he has the tools to) and keeping the pressure on when he does. But this is just from my observation heh, I don't play either character at a competative level.

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol, agree in the matchup thread then lol. But yea, its up to m2. There is nothing she can do to stop me.

Im confident that in my abilities to beat zelda. I dont care who is playing.

 

[Shadow Huan]

I see Taj. well I didn't get to play N64 when I met him, but that seemed to be a really good pika.

you haven't lost it.

I'm hoping that emmy (the zelda player) will be at the next tourny I'm going to so I can redeem myself. I've improved a little since october after all. thanks for the advice. too pro as always.

Lol, I agree. I was just looking at the matchup thread, they are hating. They have no idea what they are talking about.

two days ago they were saying shadow ball isnt even a viable option because its slow and easy to powershield. How can you make them see the light(deep purple **** light)? lmao.

that's one of the reasons that I included 2-bit powersheilding the shadowball in my video: ITS NOT EASY. well, not compared to falco's lazers anyways.

the zelda match-up thread? i gotta go lurk! =D

Tai's M2 4stocked my sheik T-T. and consistently 2-3 stocked my pika heh. Was fun times, hope we get to play again Taj!

But yeah, Zelda v. M2 matchup seems like it relies moreso on M2's strat than Zelda's. It's a lot of whether or not he can get in on zelda (which he has the tools to) and keeping the pressure on when he does. But this is just from my observation heh, I don't play either character at a competative level.

*waves at N64* play me soon! come to a tourny! wanna get pika experience.



Also we should talk about foxes shining mewtwo out of u-throw combos. I HATE that.

 

[KAOSTAR]

LMAO. I just read through the SC thread. All though alot of the criticism was true, it was pretty unnecessary.

Perfect play makes terrible combo videos, Its the absence of low tier combo videos. Unless you want to watch ppl down throw tech chase all day.

High tiers are really the only ones who do true combos that end in death. low tier ones are based off certain situations. They look the coolest and are the most ****. If they could just combo, they probably wouldnt be low tier

Mookie was just afraid taj was gettin off too fast.

He should have taken his own advice for his combo video lol.

 

[Shadow Huan]

this is true. maybe i won't make another mewtwo video and just get beast with sheik or something.

maybe i'll look up the link you're talking about though, sounds interesting

 

[KAOSTAR]

This week, I have a bit of extra time so Ill be down to do some full match critiques.

any matches you want critiqued just post a link to them.

edit I meant to post this in the video thread. just post the matches there or let me know if they are on the front page already

 

[Shadow Huan]

they are up already; for some reason everyone has overlooked the post. they aren't on the front page but they are on the last page. as a forewarning i've been focusing on getting my mewtwo more presice and less needlessly pretty, so it's a little fugly here and there. no SUNC on the posted matches. there will be more tho.

Also did you know that Mewtwo's U-smash will eat through peaches D-smash from underneath? it's in one of the matches.

 

[thesage]

Can you guys discuss the Ness matchup?

 

[Taj278]

Ness... Don't get back aired. Don't get hit by forward smash. Live to 150%+ each stock because he can only kill you with back throw.

The only time Ness is difficult if is if he plays off of forward airs and mixes up the follow up with a DJC. Ness' success depends entirely on your ability to slip between aerials. Ness is pretty easy to shield grab when he's too offensive and his grab range is terrible. Use shadow ball to force shield and play around what he likes to do out of shield. Whether it's DJC aerials, wavedash, or whatever, if you force his shield you can get easy grabs and easy shield pressure that he can't punish.

Get him off stage and you can aggressively pressure his second jump with back air, because it is likely to lose or trade to back air, then you can deny the air dodge to ledge/stage or attempt to eat the PK thunder.

 

[thesage]

Pretty sure uair will kill mewtwo before 150%

 

[KAOSTAR]

you can't just lead in with it on a shielding mewtwo.

its not gonna be easy to connect with.

mewtwo dies from alot of moves, grabs and speed **** m2, ness has neither.

 

[thesage]

And why is Ness attacking a character in a shield with a move that is not perfect djc nair?

Ness has grab combos on mewtwo and is fairly speedy at higher levels of play.

You know all that weird movement stuff Mewtwo does with his djc and wavedashing, Ness has that too...

How would Mewtwo deal with fair camping? Throw shadowballs? Are those enough to make Ness aproach on places that are not fd? Are they even effective on FD? =/

Only mewtwo's I've played are Taj's (who's lightyears beyond me in terms of skill) and then some of my friend's. I lost miserably to Taj, but I beat my friend's when I stopped being interesting and just shffl fair camped...

 

[Taj278]

I suppose up-air can KO around 120ish, I over exaggerated the percentage a bit. However, Ness just doesn't really have any reliable finisher short of critical errors on Mewtwo's part until relatively high percentage. Sorry, but I just don't see much reason to discuss the match-up because I haven't dropped a game to a Ness since my 2005 Mewtwo played Zulu in a low tier tournament in Texas. I won the set pretty soundly, but every Ness player since then has been pretty straight forward.

Shadowballs would be effective enough to neutralize the way you would have to camp with forward airs. You have to readjust the timing, Mewtwo can encroach forcing a more defensive forward air, then follow with another shadow ball, force aerial or shield and M2 can approach again and start spacing on shield or try to slip under the jump. It's especially effective on FD, but any time M2 forces anyone that's not a speed demon onto a platform it is good.

Mewtwo's weird DJC stuff are all just for show. Wavedashing, you can't compare Ness and Mewtwo there though. Ness just can't cover the same amount of ground that Mewtwo can, especially because he lacks both the speed and range with all of his ground moves. He does have a good forward air, but it is mostly just harass and the way that it comes out is not enough to stop an equally campy Mewtwo that knows how to space aerials and approach/run/cross-up with teleports.

You treat Ness like a ****ty Zelda and a ****ty Marth (Forward air spacing) and you just don't lose. You combo Ness pretty **** well. Ness has good weight for popping up with tilts and down throw and Mewtwo has good priority on up air and links back airs easily. Mewtwo can really hold momentum and can easily just move away from Ness whenever there is any kind of pressure, because Ness is pretty slow vertically and not quick enough horizontally. That and his poor range on everything except yoyos, forward smash, and forward air, there just isn't anything intimidating because Ness can't hard combo like other characters do, and you only need to be "scared" when you're in back air KO range, but then you just avoid it and treat Ness like a ****ty Zelda that can't high-low spam you with it.

If M2 plays gay and hit and runs to up throw KO%, Ness just can't win that match-up.

 

[KAOSTAR]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Basically, ness cant camp m2. SBs are not good enough to make ness approach. They are good enough to allow m2 to approach tho. You will have to attack m2 while he is on the ground because he is soft bellied in the air vs ness(m2 wont aerially approach unless u are higher than him.).

Its not easy to camp eachother. M2 has a better approach. fsmash and cc and shield DI can deal with spaced fairs no problem.

M2 can **** ness's recovery.

M2 can get a kill b4 ness, every stock.

IMO m2>ness

edit:super ultra ninjaed

 

[thesage]

Allright sounds like a good argument. I don't have any real experience in the matchup so I'll just agree. Everything you posted sounds right though.

 

[KAOSTAR]

@Taj-What do you think about M2 vs G&W? I dont know if the matchup is equalish or slightly in G&Ws favor? Priority vs light and dies easily.

Same question M2 vs luigi. I think its M2<luigi and not M2<<luigi as its listed.

same M2 vs samus. Do you think its M2<samus or M2<<samus?

Im not really looking for how to play the MU or anything just what you think about the adv/dis. Then the m2 MUs would be accurate and finished for the chart.

 

[Taj278]

vs G&W: Slight advantage to G&W. He's got a superior down tilt to stop M2's best poke, aerial priority, and good grab combos. M2 has decent edgeguard against him, any back air practically gimps him at mid to high percentage and Mario up throw kill percentage.

M2 vs. Luigi: I agree, I beat Ka-Master at Pound 4 in friendlies pretty easily though I might have just been on at the time and they were just friendlies, but even if he were sandbagging I've been pushed by worse match-ups with significantly less effort on their part. Slight advantage Luigi depending on stages too.

M2 vs Samus: Samus >> M2 on DL but overall, I say Samus > M2. I remember doing pretty well against HugS in friendlies at OC3 and Ihavespaceballs at Pound 4. Ihavespaceballs had a lot of Iori practice and it showed, but I wouldn't say it is an insurmountable advantage.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think that I def agree.

SW has a good luigi, and Ka master we already know. I got a chance to play some games against their luigis within the past couple days. Its pretty much as long as you stay active and keep him guessing it is def only a slight adv.

samus didnt seem terrible imo either. DL sucks tho.

thanks

 

[Clint_Eastwood]

Surprise!!

 

[Taj278]

Ok, I'm about ready to get back into discussing match-ups. I'd like to start back at the top, specifically with Fox. Since it's been a while since I've posted my thoughts on him, I'll probably reevaluate my opinion on these match-ups a bit. If anyone has anything they would like to share or any discoveries about the Fox match-up, DI specific combos or whatever, please contribute.