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Guide Taj's Character Match-Up Discussion

Taj278

TIME TO GET PAID!
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Messages
1,501
Location
MT. OLYMPUS, Arizona
Mewtwo's Magic Number Chart
Up throw KO percentages without (Not Bold) and with appropriate DI on FD (Bold)
Characters discussed already are also bolded.

Top
Fox: 152%/163%
Marth: 117%/126%
Shiek: 118%/128%
Falco: 159%/172%

High
Peach: 96%/105%
Captain Falcon: 151%/162%
Jigglypuff: 86%/95%
Ice Climbers: 98%/107%

Middle
Samus: 95%/103%
Dr. Mario: 101%/110%
Ganondorf: 118%/128%
Luigi: 95%/103%
Donkey Kong: 128%/138%
Mario: 101%/110%

Low
Link: 117%/127%
Pikachu: 108%/118%
Young Link: 117%/127%
Roy: 128%/138%
Zelda: 92%/101%
Game and Watch: 101%/110%

Bottom
Ness: 103%/113%
Yoshi: 107%/116%
Bowser: 116%/125%
Mewtwo: 97%/105%
Kirby: 96%/105%
Pichu: 107%/117%
Hello Mewtwo Forum! I feel like taking some initiative and helping everyone that's asking questions all in one thread since the "Taj is the best Mewtwo" thread doesn't particularly invite that much Q&A. I will be discussing tips, strategies, and answering questions on specific match ups weekly for everyone to read instead of people PMing me, so feel free to post away. These won't be that organized, but I hope that they will still be full of content and very helpful for you striving M2 players. :)

ICE CLIMBERS

Ice Climbers are... interesting. It's actually a pretty even match-up and Mewtwo can actually frustrate the IC's more than the other way around if they're unfamiliar with the obstacles you create for them to break. Once they figure out how to get around down tilt and back throw... it instantly becomes unfavorable since they can pretty much down throw down air you to death.

Offensive-

Shadow Ball itself is huge. You usually want a fully charged one, which is easy to get since you can force IC's to play defensive and wait for you to make mistakes for their grab opportunities. Throw your fully charged shadow balls and baby shadow balls in ways that force the shields up. Fully charged shadow balls can hit Nana, or force both of their shields to get very low, which is the perfect opportunity for you to slide in with spaced down tilts. Grab attacks to stop Nana from hitting you out of your grabs, then quick back throws to split them up, then mess up and get rid of Nana while keeping Popo from trying to take her back and you just take control of that stock until you get the one on one where you have the advantage as a character simply because Popo doesn't have much by himself to get around Mewtwo's range.

All of Mewtwo's attacks just open up when there's only one of them, so just out play the solo ice climber, getting the up throw KO which I believe is 110% on FD with DI at the start of the throw. Could be lower, but I don't feel like checking it right now. What's good is that you don't need to telegraph the grabs for the KO since you can also edgeguard a single IC very easily with ledge hog, back throws, and back airs which will lead to your up throw anyway if you play it correctly.

Defensive-

Avoid getting grabbed with Nana ready to **** you AT ALL COSTS. If the IC can down throw down air you, you're ****ed. Neutral airs are your friend in this match up, if you get under them, you should be able to split them up very well with this move and catch them in the air since their aerials are shorter ranged than most characters. Try to keep them split up as much as possible, don't buy into their feints. Smashes will kill you, so don't bite on anything, just keep going with what works, your KOs are more guaranteed as long as you don't get grabbed with Nana ready to **** you. Their Up smash will kill you early too, and it is guaranteed from their grabs, so I will reiterate: DO NOT GET GRABBED*.

Mewtwo's speed and priority are actually decent in this match up, especially against the slidey IC's that can't really punish you easily out of their shield. Down tilt is a great wall for the IC's to try and break, coupled with shadow ball spam and neutral air to beat their aerial game. Keep the spacing game going and the IC player will have to find new ways to get around your walls by desyncs, crouch cancels, and basically just counters to your over telegraphed attacks by using their higher priority Smashes.

Wavedash down smash will often be their bread and butter if you let it mess you up, so try to anticipate it and find ways to punish it by splitting them up, and force them to use it as a solo IC so it is much easier to punish and deter them from using their dangerous and high reward smashes to create a sense of helplessness.

You will probably get grabbed eventually, so these strats are designed to increase your margin for error. If Nana is knocked away from a neutral air or back throw, and you get grabbed, it is much more difficult to punish you, so you are harder to kill. The better you are at keeping Nana and Popo split, the more in favor the match will be for you. The other main benefit is that a single Ice Climber will have an even harder time grabbing if you see it coming so you're in even better shape to keep up the split. Getting tilt infinited and d-air chain grabbed are the primary ways for you to lose this match up, so simply eliminating that from the IC's game makes that match up a borderline nightmare for IC's, forcing them to KO from straight Smashes and possibly well timed SH back airs which I've only seen Chu Dat and to a lesser extent, Wobbles pull off.
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FOX

This match-up is annoying. It is either pretty easy or annoyingly impossible for you to win and it is largely dependent on how the Fox player decides to approach the match-up. If he tries to play you like he plays Fox dittos, Sheiks, or almost any other higher tiered character, he'll stand a better chance of losing. If he decides to play it like he's a God tier scrub character and you're playing a bottom tier character that has virtually no options to counter a nonpunishable offensive machine, then you might be in for an uphill battle.

Offense-

FD is usually your favorite stage for fast fallers because you can do the big 0-60 or 0-death combos that usually even out the match since they can easily do 2 30% combos back to you and kill you at 90% when you have to force them into edgeguards or do 130% Forward airs and 163% up throws to KO.

Depending on the Fox player's experience you have a number of options at 0%. When you get your grab, you can usually do one grab attack then start an up throw. If they have poor DI and DI up/down/slightly horizontal, go for a rising and falling double forward air combo. Make sure you L-cancel and you can either grab and up throw again and go for an improv combo, or you can DJC forward air and go for up tilt, forward air, or whatever you want reacting to how they're DIing you have a few options that can even lead them back down into down tilts to grab/forward tilt edgeguards. There aren't many guaranteed combos with appropriate DI, but you can always find ways to keep hits flowing, or pressure the Fox and get more hits in.

At around 40-50% I've started messing with Up-Throw to Confusion. It seems to throw a lot of people off, and often times they either fast fall tech the confusion, or they jump out of it very early and you can start to space tilts before or as they land to punish them. From 40% and til you get a kill, your main offensive move set will be down tilts, grabs, and intercepting neutral airs since all of these things set up for tech chases and small combos that lead to edgeguards.

Defense-
Fox has control of this match up most of the time with a much more spammable projectile, faster movement speed, air superiority, and an equally devastating up throw that can be exploited by a very strong dash dance that is difficult to punish simply because Fox is faster.

When I play Fox players, most of my set ups come from punishing people trying to drill shine. Mewtwo is much taller and slides more than many Fox players are accustomed to, and because of this, they will mess up their L-cancels a lot more often OR they will incorrectly space the drill shine and get shield grabbed anyway.

When the Fox likes to Short Hop Laser you from across FD, usually you teleport into him and immediately shield or wavedash into a medium range space where you're still a threat if he tries to laser, but you're just out of range of any aerial or up smash attempts. This is important because you'll both probably be in dash grab range and Fox's SHFFL range, this is where you can get the most opportunities to take control of the match by countering Fox's approaches.

When Fox flies in with a SHFFL Neutral air or down air, a DA Dash/Pivot grab really screws with the Fox's attempts to cross up or space in front of you allowing you to grab him in the air where he can't shine, or you mess up his L-cancel timing and get more shield grabs for your tech chases and combos.

When the Fox is grounded, you would usually like to neutralize that dash grab with your down tilt and try to force him in the air where you keep trying to suck him into your range. You have to keep in mind though that a good Fox that knows how to Dash Dance well will destroy the rhythm you're trying to make and make you bite, get free lasers, make you bite on your grabs, grab you back and will once again just take control of the match by getting lots of up throw to up air combos on you which is GG for Mewtwo on any stage.

Edgeguards- Call Forward B's to the ledge with your Ledge Teleport and get early KOs, you can also time Down Smashes, but stealing the ledge is a guaranteed KO. If you know they're going to Up B, punish them for it by aggressively pursuing them off stage with back airs. Fox's Forward B is laggier than Falco's, so it is possible to just wavedash out of shield and grab him if he lands on stage with it.

Overall- To close distance, shadow ball to wavedash or Landing Canceled Teleports are good. Avoid getting grabbed, especially at the danger zone which is around 78% on FD. Don't get up Smashed. Find ways to mess up Fox's timing by calling his approaches, switching up your spacing, baiting the Fox into you. Get the Fox to try and be more technical than he needs to be. Fox players don't really need to SHFFL that much or even shine that much, but we want them to since Mewtwo's only favorable position in this match is on the ground and it's the best way to get grabs.

It is an up hill match up, and if you play with a Fox player long enough even if you **** him thoroughly initially, the Fox will get accustomed to you and start doing much better. In order to keep your win ratios higher, you have to keep switching things up, keep calling everything he's going to do and stay one step ahead until he starts figuring out that he's over complicating the match and just needs to focus more on his ground game which just requires patience and Jump Canceled grabs.
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DONKEY KONG

This is actually pretty short since DK is very straight forward. He can be hard, but the match really just comes down to responding correctly to DK's "stances."

Basically you have two main things to worry about. Is DK facing forward or backwards?

If DK is facing forward: He can only grab you. Push into him more and start using your down tilt and grabs more aggressively since he has a poor sidestep, poor and easily shield grabbed neutral air, slow forward air and your grab range is technically longer than DKs.

If DK is facing backwards: He can only back air so use more shadow balls and wavedash into him with your shield up and get him to poorly space his back airs on you while trying to time good wave dash down tilts as well if he's chaining them at you.

DK is kinda intimidating at first, but when you realize how limited he is based on how he is looking at you, then he is easier to manage. He punishes you hard with grabs, and keeps you out well with back air, but he can only pressure you with one thing at a time. Yeah dash dances and pivots can let him react to how you approach but pressuring him with your projectile before you make any moves on a dash dancing DK forces him to hold his position in some way. He either has to start shielding, back airing, side step, or jump over them.

If DK goes too high in the air and you can get under him, you get free damage. Use Down throws to set up easy tech chases and down tilt combos. Meta pretty much covered the edge guard.

Sorry if that seems unorganized, if you have any specific questions go ahead and post them and I'll try to answer them.
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MARTH

This match is a lot more enjoyable than Fox and sometimes Falco even though TECHNICALLY it is just as unfavorable. The interesting thing is that I've beaten every Marth I've ever played except for Ken, Azen, and M2K. Against Ken and Azen, I can say that the matches could've almost gone either way. The reason for this is because I think it is purely a technical match for Marth. If Marth exploits his range, priority, and superior grab game **** near perfectly, then it is ****. Having played against the monster that is M2K, the one thing I wish I could change during those matches would be to play safer. Marth punishes HARD, and I think I wasn't patient enough as I suicided and set myself up for gimps that I shouldn't have which would have made the match more interesting if I didn't.

Offense: Well I'd say that my Mewtwo is very much about counters, offense is very difficult to do against an experienced Marth. A lot of your approaches may be shadow balls between Marth aerials with wavedash down tilts as he's landing and l-canceling, and wavedash into shield against poorly spaced aerials.

Use your bread and butter combos after down tilts. D-tilt(s) > F-air, Up- air. Punish poorly placed full hops and platform landings with neutral air. Pressure Marth knocked off the stage with back airs and good ledge stalls to retain invincibility until he's forced to land on the stage from the pressure. When you get the grab on Marth or get inside of Marth with your tilts, you want to stay inside of him where he doesn't have as many tools to punish you and it's where you might be just as quick or a little bit faster.

126% is your magic number for up throw on FD.

Defense: Avoid getting grabbed. In the event that you do get grabbed, especially at low percentages, DI away from forward throw and back throw. If you're not sure, DI down might save you, but it also may not save you from chain grabs early on. DI away from forward air combos as they often lead to down airs and focus on slow and safe recovery. You have enough options to stall out and wait until his edgeguard pressure lets up.

JC Teleport out of shield to get out of his shield pressure, lots of wavedashes in and out, even well timed pivots and dash dances will be necessary to find the holes in the Marth player's game. When I say that it is about "countering" I mean it is about knowing when you can beat the Marth to the punch as well as knowing when to sway and strike him back. Subtly moving out of tipper range with a quick dash dance, a teleport cross up with shield up to block the responding forward smash with a wavedash out of shield to reverse grab is guaranteed from a shielded non tipped forward smash. A lot of your damage and offense will probably originate from punishing something poorly spaced or executed. Forcing the Marth to let himself get shield grabbed more is how you will win this match. If the Marth plays more of a Fox style dash dance grab game, you have to play very carefully, create walls with down tilt, and probably run around a lot until he whiffs something you can punish him with.

I've been making more use of confusion in general when I've been playing off and on, and I've found that catching Marth's with it right as you know they're going to short hop F-air you works very well. Also using it when they're shielding because you're in range for down tilt but out of range for a JC grab is moderately effective. Though this increases the probability of landing Confusion, it is still a move to be used sparingly and this may not work for everyone. Fully charged shadow balls also can be used offensively and defensively against Marth's Forward Smash by utilizing the recoil effect.

Final thoughts: Marth is more enjoyable of a match up because it is possible for Mewtwo to establish a rhythm. It is easier to find a rhythm against Marth while avoiding and punishing his kill moves. If the Marth starts playing the match like a Fox and starts using more dash dance grabs in combination with well spaced aerials, start creating walls with down tilt and run as he approaches to grab by JC teleporting and keep trying to reset or slow him down with retreating shadow balls until you can move into him for shield grabs, or you find the holes in his approach and can go on the offensive.

I'll talk to the person that edited my combo video and see if she still has the DVDs and upload the Marth matches I had on there since there's not much to go by from anything on youtube. Until then, I once again apologize if anything I said was confusing and if you have any questions or if you want me to elaborate on anything in particular, this is the thread to do it in. :D

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GANONDORF

Ganondorf's Magic Number is 128%

This match is very difficult if the Ganon player spaces his forward and back airs well to shield pressure you and never does any "unnecessary" approaches that leave him open for you to move into him. He hits hard, he punishes hard, so this match really requires the Mewtwo player to be spot on in timing attacks, but fortunately Ganon has an easy to gimp recovery and can be comboed pretty well. This makes Ganon one of Mewtwo's **** or get ***** match-ups and you may start to treat Ganon's play style like a Marth that can't invade your space as easily, but can easily just pound it into the ground. Finding a rhythm is key.

OFFENSE: Your approach is usually going to involve slipping in down tilts following shadow balls and well timed grabs often following poorly spaced aerials or poor positioning. Your kills will come more from edge guards than up throws, so keep that in mind. I don’t remember Ganon’s magic number, but it is around 140% or so. Neutral air is always a good move to use between aerials, and well timed Confusions might help out in getting through Ganon’s F-airs. He’ll often try to keep you out by using jabs following his aerials, so keep that in mind as you approach and you might get him to bite, then get guarantee your opener.

DEFENSE: Keep moving, be careful when you push into him to get into your range for landing down tilts and grabs, try not to whiff or you will get punished. Watch for empty short hops to grabs, since they are practically guaranteed back/forward airs on you. If you’re forced to shield F-airs it will destroy your shield and then your head will be vulnerable. Ganon has good range but poor horizontal movement speed so try to escape to a ledge or across the stage and let your shield recharge until you can try to get inside him again. Be wary of his Down B. If you see it coming, you can Disable it, grab him out of it or even side step and still have time to punish most of the time.

Final Thoughts: Shadow balls are good since it also can force Ganon to eventually start making moves toward you. Ganon is a good character to get a rhythm on, but can easily take it away with one good aerial. Once you can read him, you’re in good shape. The more times you set him up off of the stage, the better. Go out and get him with back airs when he’s off the stage, especially during his Down B. You can just ledge hog him from there when he’s forced to up B, you can down smash and follow up with back airs, or just go get him with back airs until he can’t recover anymore.

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SHEIK

Sheik is a very mean fight, contrary to popular belief. A lot of the things you do just get out prioritized by Sheik. Sheik has better grab range, has low attacks, can crouch cancel your combo starter then combo you back, much harder to grab than Marth, and much harder to KO than Marth. The things you have going for you in this match are less gimp KOs from Sheik, good combos when you can start them, and decent edge guarding pressure.

OFFENSE: Usually at lower percentages you want to start with more down throws since they have to DI away or they get comboed into down tilt and another down throw. Since you know they will DI away, depending on where you grab them on the stage, you can build most of your damage early from there by tech chasing. The key here is to figure out if they’re someone that likes to move away and try to cross you up or someone that just wants to get away and stay away. Once you figure this out you can down throw and even teleport tech chase, or you down throw and wavedash forward once and look to pivot. The second option will give you more success because even if you guessed wrong, you’re still in position to pressure the Sheik by dash dancing towards them after a tech.

Shadow balls get canceled by needles, but you usually can use them to cover your approach as they needle spam, and you can sometimes get them to throw needles at the apex of their jump instead of as they’re landing which can be an opener if you’re ready for it. Getting them to do that opens up teleports underneath them, and wave dash down tilts as they’re throwing needles, setting up for combos/grabs.

DEFENSE: Sheik aerials are just better than yours, so usually all the aerials you’ll land will either be from a whiffed attack or when Sheik can’t do anything about it. You can punish poorly spaced down smashes with a Forward air out of shield. You can stop Sheik’s low dash attacks with confusion*, (Experimental strat) crouch cancels, or a baby wavedash back to shield for a possible shield grab. Use Sheik’s standing needles as opportunities to close the distance by teleporting through them or max ranging them and charging your shadow ball. Do your best to avoid grabs, especially around 120-130% since that is Sheik’s kill range on Mewtwo. I’d DI away from down throw > forward air at 140%+ and hope the Sheik doesn’t know how far you’ll go. More often, you want to try to eat the Forward air instead of the up air, so DI away and DI up for the forward air and hope for the best.

Don’t let Sheik into your space easily, wall off her dash dance with down tilts and shadow ball, escape from jabs on your shield as they often lead to grab attempts, encourage forward tilts since they can be difficult to space on Mewtwo and can lead to your own down tilts, grabs, and shield grabs.

EDGE GUARDING: Edge guarding Sheik is usually pretty straight forward, but it is hard to get gimps. Most of the time you’re just camping the ledge until she up Bs then forcing her to have a laggy landing on the stage, back throw, and repeat until you can’t anymore.

Last thoughts: Sheik’s magic number on FD is 128%, though you’ll usually have to go higher just because Sheik can easily deny you your grabs if you force them. A lot of the time you just have to go with the flow and keep waiting until you get your kill opportunity. You’ll probably see a lot of down tilt > forward air KOs since they’ll be afraid of that grab.

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FALCO

Falco's magic number is not 159% at the start of the throw; it is 172% with perfect DI.

OFFENSE

Falco is a dirty bird. Powershield > Wavedash > Down Tilt/Grab is the best way to get through SHL on any stage. I usually just teleport into Falco with my shield up and invade his SHL space, the space where he can SHL comfortably while standing still, and follow him if he tries to retreat his SHL or read for a SHFFL cross up from Falco by doing a quick pivot shield reading for shield grab or a quick retreat.

It's also good to do a forward baby shadow ball at Falco when you know he's going to retreat SHL, then follow that up with your wavedash down tilt or grab.

COMBOS

The most consistent combo I've found on Falco on FD for the left or right DIed up throw is grab > up throw > Full hop but you DJC your forward air near the apex of the jump so you fall with the forward air > JC grab either direction he decides to DI > up throw > forward air to up air or to confusion for an extended tech chase.

If the Falco doesn't DI your up throw at 0-6% straight left or right, then the usual double forward airs to whatever **** combo you want works pretty well. The only hard part is if they don't DI the throw but they DI the forward air behind you, so you just have to know before hand to throw your forward air while floating backwards to continue the combo.

I have some good footage of what I'm talking about in Shadow Claw 3. ;)

DEFENSE

Disable out of shield works pretty well if they try to do a jab/tilt approach to you, as well as shadow balls and well timed SH neutral airs. Teleport out of shield and wavedash out of shield to avoid the SHL rush down pressure, light shield/wavedash/jump and retreat to the edge to refresh your shield and to even bait the Falco in to approaching you. If the Falco bites and invades your space by the ledge, you can easily turn the tables with a simple ledge hop teleport and move back into him with your shield up and Falco no longer has much space, so his options become panic SHFFL aerial or grab, and you can compensate for both of those with good spacing.

Falco’s SHFFL N-air > Shine > grab/Shine are probably the main things that will throw you off from good Falcos. You have to be ready to retreat/shield grab if you know it is coming. Sometimes you’ll be forced to play a high and floaty game above Falco until you figure out their ground game, and falling neutral airs to tech chases may be all you have.

EDGEGUARDS

If up throw won't kill or combo, just don't do it. If your back is to the stage, down throw. If your back is to the edge, back throw. Down Smash is a perfectly fine edgeguard against Falco's Forward B if you have an ounce of timing, because it isn't laggy either. Down tilt can be ok, but usually at higher percentages, not lower. I’d use down tilt to combo into a KOing Forward air, down air, or forward tilt. Also, it just doesn’t feel as potent of an attack as Down Smash for hitting people under the stage since the attack isn’t disjointed.

When you're edge guarding Falco, just think what would Marth do? Then you do it. Take the ledge, force the high forward B, if they don't then they have to Up B and then you just back air them away. If they up B higher, go for the back air anyway and chase them far enough that you can barely recover with teleport and Falco shouldn't be able to make it back with his Up B. You want to control as many options as you can, so when Falco is trying to recover, throw Shadow balls where Falco has to B to drop him a little lower, force him to Forward B sweet spot and punish it by down smash or taking his Cookies, Ultra Ninja style.

OVERALL
To beat Falco you have to fight and fight to get Falco on his back then you cling on to him like fly on ****. Keep tech chasing him, tracking him down with your shadow ball wave dashes, keep throwing him off the stage and threatening his recovery. Falco can't really kill Mewtwo easily; he can just build damage until about 130-140% where you start dying from sweet spotted aerials. Forward Smash and down airs might kill you earlier, but those things are avoidable. If you can break into Falco's rhythm and keep him from controlling you with laser spam and spaced tilts/aerials, then you'll win the match.
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JIGGLYPUFF

This is a very slow match. It largely depends on the player’s style and ability to read you. If you’re predictable, you’ll lose. If the Jiggs has a recognizable pattern, you can exploit it and nickel and dime your way to a *96%* up throw on FD or a juicy forward air.

OFFENSE

Hopped Shadow Balls, Wavedash between Jiggs’ landing aerials and grab when you can and neutral air when you can’t. Use your back air to challenge Jiggs when she’s off the stage. Forward airs are tough to land, but it is doable when they make the mistake of using poorly spaced aerials. Overall, the bulk of your damage will come from just dancing around and waiting. Throwing shadow balls between Jiggs aerials, good neutral airs, and good grabs. NEVER telegraph your grabs, your grabs HAVE to be handed to you. If you telegraph your grab, it will get crouched and you may get rested or smashed.

So use your Dash Dance, your wavedashes out of and into shield, good pivots, and earn your grabs by capitalizing on mistakes. You can’t grab a good Jiggs with a linear approach, it almost always has to be by punishes or surprise. It’s ok if you don’t get your grab or KO until Jiggs at 150%, if you play just as well or better Jiggs has to wait until 150%+ to kill you with a back air as well. Both characters have trouble racking up damage and killing each other.

Early on the universal floaty combo should work for you if it isn’t crouch canceled. Down tilt > forward air > up air. Then down tilt > neutral air and sometimes back airs.

When Jiggs gives you space, charge your shadow ball. Full charged Shadow Balls can be early KOs or your bigger damage dealer when dealing with Jiggs’ SHFFL game. Eventually it will force Jiggs to be more aggressive as well, which means more neutral airs for you, more grab opportunities, and you can be even more annoying and evasive.

DEFENSE

Retreating Shadow Balls away from the Wall of Pain, SH Teleports are very difficult to punish unless Jiggs straight calls them or you do it prematurely, so you can use it to get away all the time. You’re a big target for Jiggs though, so you may have to direct your shield high against Jiggs, but Jiggs doesn’t really have much else. Her aerials are tough to get around, but that’s just how Jiggs fights, so you keep moving, getting your chip damage, move inside until you can get your neutral airs, call Jiggs’ retreats and land your forward airs, up tilt from underneath, and if you need to recharge your shield run to the edge.

Jiggs can’t edgeguard you very well, but if she does just slowly assess how Jiggs is moving toward you and you might even be able to get some free damage if you attack using your second jump. Jiggs just can’t really edge guard M2 that well if you have your second jump, and even if you don’t, Jiggs rarely knocks you away at such a low angle that you can’t just float back and mix going to platform, stage, or ledge.

OVERALL

Jiggs is an annoying character to fight against. You have to watch for that reverse neutral air rest thing, but that’s not that big of a deal. You have to watch for up tilt rest, but not at like 20%+ so you shouldn’t really get killed by it unless you’re at the edge of a stage with bad DI or it is a small stage. Mewtwo is so floaty and light that he actually avoids most of Jiggs’ combos. Back air chains would be as rough as they get, but at middle percentages DIing away or up usually does the trick naturally.

Keep running around and looking for openings, and eventually they’ll turn up. Jiggs has no projectile and you do. Jiggs can’t KO you, but you can’t KO Jiggs either unless you both try to fight. Jiggs has a bigger grab range than you, so if it comes to a ground game, you’ll be better off looking to tilt more often than play for grabs since Jiggs can also crouch under yours unless you space it at the correct distance or catch that slight head turn thingy that Jiggs does when she crouches, lol.

Be the gingerbread man and you’ll do much better in this match.
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PEACH

Peach's Magic Number is 105%


Quote:
Peach for Mewtwo needs to be a long match for any hope of winning. Basically, Peach is completely covered in approach, has a better projectile, and priority. Some Peach players like Forward air on your shield or spaced to stop approaches, followed with either jabs, grabs, down smash or a retreat.

Call and chase the retreats with grabs at low % and tilts at higher %, and you might be able to forward air out of shield the down smash if it didn't eat under your hard shield. If the forward air hits your shield, you're fine; Peach can't follow up because Mewtwo slides. If it pushes you to the edge, then slowly plan out how you're going to get back on the stage and avoid stupid hits. Basically try not to take unnecessary damage, as everything counts for both people in this match. Peach dies early off of the top except on DL64, and Mewtwo has to die from forward air, neutral air, forward throw and other moves at moderately higher percentages.

If you get Peach off of the stage, and she's at an altitude where you can back air, be patient and wait for a good one to throw and force an air dodge, chase a neutral air and keep chasing until you see she can neutral air you. If she's above you, chase with up air if possible, force Peach to throw her float and double jump cards and keep yourself in a position where you can make something happen.

On the stage, catch projectiles if possible, though her throws are better, if there is a lot of distance, then just back up and baby shadow ball spam hoping for an opening. If Peach wants to be a *****, then you gotta choke her like one. If you're down in percentage, then you gotta turnip/shadow ball approach get grabs/down tilt forward air combos and just slowly rack up the damage for the throw KO. Throw her off the stage and see if you can get some cheap kills with back airs and edge hogs, otherwise take it for the easy % if possible.
Most of this hasn't really changed. "If Peach wants to be a *****, then you gotta choke her like one."

OFFENSE

You generally want to down throw at low percentages, back throw off the stage at medium percentages when applicable. You can out space her down smash with down tilts BARELY, so keep that in mind when you want to pressure her shield. Up throw KOs, Forward air when applicable. Some decent combos on poor Peach players are:

Down tilt > Forward tilt > down tilt > Forward Tilt/Air >>> If Forward air then follow for the up air.

When you have her on a platform stage and you call her float:

Back air > Up air > Back air

is a good combo as you follow her using the platform between the up airs and next back air as she tries to DI up from getting hit.

You're mostly looking to neutral air her float and techs on platforms. Shadow ball her floats to get her to aerial or bring her down on the ground again. You want to keep doing that until you find her rhythm and start calling her approaches and retreats.

Fully charged shadow balls also help create set ups when Peach is floating. They force her to get out of the way some how. You generally want to throw it so it hits under Peach's dress to force her up and have a longer way down, it also serves to just hit her because she thinks it might just go under her or she was already performing an aerial.

DEFENSE

Peach's float cancels are really difficult to match up against. Fortunately, Mewtwo has a very big shield to absorb those blows and can often run circles around Peach and just straight up run away to the ledge and stall for your shield back after her attacks.

Until you figure out her rhythm for your offense, you're looking to punish every little mistake Peach makes. Poorly spaced aerials should get tilted, grabbed, or shield grabbed. You can encourage more mistakes by doing lots of small subtle movements like facing away then doing a quick pivot shield on her attack. If she grounds herself after the attack and goes for jabs, pressure her with a disable out of shield if the jabs are long and not properly spaced.

Neutral air out of shield on floated down airs that aren't well spaced or timed. Charge your shadow ball when there is distance on the Peach. Catch poorly thrown turnips and use them for a possible approach of your own. Peach throws items faster than you do, so you have to be careful when you use it offensively or you'll get neutral aired.

Low percentage down smashes from Peach are devastating, so when you're playing a down tilt spacing game, make sure you ****ing space, lol. You're really just looking to down tilt at medium percentages during a ground game or in between aerials where she can't crouch cancel you easily.

Stitch faces are gay, catch/avoid like normal. Bomb-ombs too. If she pulls a beam sword, do your best to get it from her. If you get that sword, you know have a viable and consistent ground spacing game against her. You can play her like Marth, shut down her float game and have a quick, viable ranged projectile.
When you down throw Peach, always be ready for a retaliated neutral air dropping back down on you. You just have to watch her DI. If she DIs up/neutral/back into you, don't go for the forward air at early percentages, go for up tilt instead if you can. You generally don't want to challenge Peach's aerials unless you're underneath her, her trades are often better than yours and her priority is also just better. You're looking to just keep moving and slowly building that damage until you can choke dat ***** and up throw her.


EDGEGUARDS
Back air and Up air is pretty much all you need and have for high recoveries. Baby Shadow Ball her float if you can and Teleport edgehog/SUNC and down smash mix ups for when you force her a bit lower. Otherwise, if she just tries to land on the stage, have your down tilt/KO grab/ Forward air ready for her.

LAST THOUGHTS

She did not bake you a delicious cake. You're going to take her cake and all of her cookies, so don't bite on any of her ****. Be patient and she will have to come to you if you have a solid defense and spacing game. She is Peach though, so you will get hit when there's nothing you can do about it. Just keep trying to avoid the killing blows, reset when you need to and create/wait for your openings with solid spacing and shutting down common Peach play like above head level floats, spaced dash attacks, and turnip spam.

Questions/Comments/Concerns?
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MR. GAME & WATCH

MAGIC NUMBER IS 110%

INITIAL THOUGHTS

I don't really have much to say on him. He is a better character than Mewtwo, but he is very light and floaty like Mario. He has aerial priority, and a great SHFFL Shield pressure game. A good CC down tilt, good jab, decent wavedash > grab game, guaranteed combos and pretty much guaranteed KOS, and a turtle.

He has a poor shield that doesn't matter against Mewtwo except in cases of good neutral airs... M2's forward air is a killer, gimpable and fairly predictable recovery because it is more vertical than horizontal.

OFFENSE Grab down throw and wavedash forward. G&W has a very poor tech and you can punish people for DIing away at low % pretty well. If he jumps out of it then... that's all you got I guess. Charge your Shadow ball when you can. If you know he wants to play for a bucket, it doesn't matter. He needs 3 to use it, it is difficult to land on a good player, and you can punish him HARD for it. It doesn't go away when he dies, but the main thing to keep in mind is that it is laggy when he catches something and his head is always vulnerable. Time you FC Shadow Ball to wave up and over his bucket and land on his head.

You can get punished for down tilting at low percentages and even medium percentages, so use sparingly on his ground game unless you want to eat his even stronger and better down tilt that can combo you harder. Use baby shadow balls with your approaches, try to get inside of him by moving around with good wavedashes and teleports and get those grabs on him. Mewtwo doesn't have very many combos on him aside from the bread and butter combo on floaties. (D-tilt, Forward air, up air.) Neutral air on his poor shield does well against him though if you get him onto a platform or attack him out of your shield from poorly spaced/attacks on your back.

DEFENSE

Even though G&W has air superiority and ground superiority, he is still pretty linear. If you can read his approach, punish and bait attacks, it can give you the openings you need to chip in damage for your up throw KO. You can also try to use Confusion' spacing to your advantage by using it as a counter to long forward air attempts by the G&W, safely out space down tilt, or calling his attacks out of shield with your own confusion out of shield. You have to throw it before he throws his aerials though.

G&W has guaranteed grab KOs and his best killers are neutral air, forward air, forward smash, and at higher percentages sweet spot down tilts. Fortunately G&W's SHFFL game doesn't give him free grabs, his game revolves around spacing from the shield grab, not so much the hit stun. So most of his KO moves can be avoided with good play, and you can keep chipping away at his percentage until he's in the danger zone.

EDGEGUARD

Basically, if you have him in a position where he's coming very high, there's not much you can really do since he beats you in the air. If he's in a position where he's pretty much forced to use his double jump to help his recovery, then you have something.

You jump out at him backwards just out of range of his forward air, but you want to be able to throw your back air at anytime. Bait his cover aerial and/or attack him when there is an opening, that one back air will probably be all you need to **** his momentum and then it's just a simple ledge stall to roll for the KO since he needs that double jump for horizontal mobility and his recovery is mostly vertical. His only saving grace is that he is kind of floaty. By pressuring him with the threat of back air, even if you trade, you should get something out of it unless you're in KO range yourself. You also have better aerial mobility, so it should be doable.

Just be mindful of early Up B's and attempts to land on the stage from the free fall. His recovery isn't HORRIBLE, it's just predictable... like Marth's in a sense.

Down Smash if you can't get the edge hog and be ready for possible tech and just repeat.

LAST THOUGHTS

Get grabs, don't bite on crouch cancel down tilt. You can't crouch cancel grabs, and you get free down tilts if he tries to at higher percentages. Try to make use of that poor shield to the best of your ability, but it's difficult when you don't have the tools. Avoid his KO moves which only 2 can be comboed from a grab. Avoid the second hit of his down air, and don't bite on that either because a down tilt usually follows unless you know you can beat it with your shield grab. Keep moving, keep getting him to make mistakes, and get him on the floor, get him get him on the floor, WHAT! Tech chases will get you the down tilts you're probably looking for. Back throw by ledges at middle to higher percentages, and remember your up throw for KO.

Don't try to challenge G&W directly, punish lag when you can. You can't really beat his down air head on, so don't try. Hit him from the side if it is obvious, and keep that Shadow Ball handy. It can hit through his small shield when you need it and it can hit his head. G&W has a bad roll so punish him for that too.

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SAMUS

Initial thoughts- She can't kill you easily if you don't let her, and she can keep you out pretty easily and build up damage slowly. You have very easy up throw KOs, but less effective forward air KOs, stick to YS, PS, FD, and BF if possible.

103% is your Magic Number on FD

OFFENSE: Your shadow ball either trades or loses to missles based on how it collides. You can do a really cool down tilt through missle trick as well so utilize that if she tries to shoot you while falling. Neutral air is probably your safest move over her shield and side step game. It rapes her shield and may eat through it allowing you to get under her and hit her with up tilts/up airs/more neutral airs. Beware down tilting at low percentages unless you're certain she's not going to crouch cancel or she's at a higher percentage so it knocks her down. Space them accordingly so she can't neutral air you out of it either. You don't really have a guaranteed down tilt > forward air > up air combo on Samus, so most of your damage may come from back air links, poorly DIed tilts, and of course grabs.

You want to put Samus off the stage as much as possible. When facing the ledge do a down throw. When facing away back throw. If Samus tries to DI your down throw back into youat low %, don't try to follow up with a forward air, you don't have time against players with an ounce of awareness, use an up tilt and look to back, up, or neutral air based on DI.

Poorly spaced tilts can be pressured with disable out of shield, though it is not guaranteed, it can just be a surprise for tilt whores. Challenge Samus' charge beam by charging your own shadow ball. Otherwise keep pressure on Samus and don't let her finish hers easily as it is her best kill move. Most good Samus players will save their charge beam for either a "surprise," tech chase, or counter to a predictable approach. When you have distance, you should be able to react to it. When you're in the fray, expect it and bait it out while not using your laggier moves. Teleport cross up with your shield up and play as close as you can while expecting her "get off me" moves like up B and down smash.

Edgeguards: Back airs. Teleport stall for even or above the stage recoveries and prepare to back air the grapple beam. Above the stage, spaced back airs. Below the stage eating bombs and back airing is a viable option if you're not afraid of losing your second jump to a last ditch attack. On the stage to off stage Samus... down smash any failed sweet spot. If you can beat her to the edge then do it. If she grapples while you're on the edge and doesn't rise immediately, just fast fall neutral air ASAP. Really... just go get her and rack up damage while you're doing it because once she is back on the stage you should have better position and the damage you've done should lead you closer to up throw. You don't want Samus to live to higher percentages unless you're playing on DL64 and maybe FoD/BF where Samus is much more difficult to KO off the top. If you Confusion her through BF as well, be ready to punish her grapple attempt and prevent her from recovering she panics and used her second jump right away like most people. Samus is like Peach in recovery resilience for good players.

Defense: Your Offense and Defense both just need to be solid. You don't want to give Samus any kind of momentum or stock advantage. Your goal is to control the pace of the game. You want to probably play a floaty/wave dash style. By this I mean you don't want to be stuck in your shield too much, but you need to be ready to shield those big hits, and you want to float around so it is harder for Samus to grab you. Get into that range where you can throw shadow balls more successfully than Samus can throw missles and float in that range and within your dash grab/wavedash grab range.

You generally want your shield to be full, so retreat when you can but Samus is pretty fast and has a good tilt range, so teleport out of shield and stall by an edge when you can. Samus can't punish you easily for it. Use your teleport cross up to get through missle spam, teleport and roll back in front, keep trying to move around her in the center, and slowly get her to chase you to a side of the level. You don't want Samus to have distance on you and you don't want her to control the center.

Try to avoid being directly over Samus as she has a lot more options than you do.

Final Thoughts- It's like Peach but a little bit easier to stay inside, harder to get inside, and only a couple of kill moves that aren't as potent as Peach's. So don't get hit by Smashes and sweet spotted Neutral air and you should live to 130-150% a stock.

Questions/Comments/Concerns? I will revise this later, Sick Johns.

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CAPTAIN FALCON

Initial Thoughts- Falcon is a monster, a fan favorite, and he loves everything about Mewtwo: Floaty, short range, low priority, and large. Mewtwo has some good combos, a reliable tech chase from down throw, a decent middle to high percentage edge guard, and a big fluffy shield that is higher than most characters to help combat Falcon’s aerial shield pressure. The odds are against you, but depending on your skill at reading Falcon’s approaches, how you adjust your spacing, how you call Falcon’s retreats, and how you learn to corner Falcons on your tech chases to maximize damage and increase edge guarding situations, the better your chances of beating Falcons consistently.

Falcon's Magic Number- 162%
OFFENSE

Your offense will usually start a shield grab, throwing your shadow ball and following it up with down tilt or grabs, confusion tech chase, disabled aerial tech chase, or neutral air to tech chase.

If you start with a 0-3% grab you should use up throw and follow it up with double forward airs > rising forward air > DJC up air or Double F-air > DJC F- air > WD down tilt or whatever you want depending on DI. If they DI behind you on the up throw, you can usually assume they are going to DI continuously in that same direction and just do reverse Forward airs backwards. If they DI forward and back or vice versa, between the double forward airs, then you either have to call it or neutral air and rely on the follow up which is less consistent.

If you get the grab at 20% or higher, Falcon seems to be able to escape with horizontal DI and jumps, so you can use up throw > confusion to throw them off or you can rely on a strong down throw tech chasing game. Reverse Shadow Ball Charging can give you good shield pressure if the Falcon isn’t confident from the early game, but most of the time the Falcon will probably take stage control until you call their dash dances, corner them with your tech chases and force them off the stage with down throw or back throw.

DEFENSE

This is what you need to win against Falcon consistently. Most of your offense will stem from countering their SHFFLs with spacing, quick pivots, shield grabbing, ledge confusion, and DJC neutral air out of shield.

I typically like to face up Falcon and throw/charge shadow balls when he has distance to force some kind of action. Based on what the Falcon chooses to do to baby shadow balls determines if I like to charge instead. If Falcon stops and jabs/sidesteps shadow balls, then be prepared to follow them up, if Falcon aerials through them/hops over them, I tend to charge my ball more.

This is important because a charged/charging shadow ball usually means an offensive opportunity against aerial happy Falcon, and the aerial happy Falcons are (typically, but not always) easier to read than the Dash Dance heavy Falcon with good spacing. Falcons can be broken into a similar Marth category where you have:

Aerial shield pressure Falcons
Dash Dance heavy Falcons
Shield Dashing Falcons

Against Aerial Falcons- retreating baby shadow balls between their aerial spam, confusion out of shield to call their next SHFFL, spaced disable out of shield, wavedashing into the aerial with your shield up while preventing the cross up for a shield grab, or well timed shadow ball charges work pretty well.

Dash Dance heavy Falcons- Usually advancing AND retreating shadow balls will be necessary, long wavedash down tilts for the dash away and short for the approach. If you really feel the Falcon’s rhythm, you can even do long wave dash to disable when the Falcon retreats to a corner and you may catch him on the dash back.

Shield Dashing Falcons- Usually you have to use down tilt to stop their approach, confusion works really well when you have them cornered, and this is where your own dash dance/ wave dash game needs to shine to bait their shield grabs, quick aerials, and watch for their quick dash dances out of their shield to try and bait you back.

WHEN YOU GET GRABBED
You have to know when you need to DI up to avoid getting kneed and when to DI away to avoid getting kneed. Most Falcons love trying to intercept your recovery for some reason and overextend themselves for that kill. You have to recognize when you have time to teleport/jump air dodge, when you have to fast fall, and when you just have to DI up to minimize your horizontal distance for the inevitable knee. This part really just takes practice/experience, but if you’re aware of your options, getting grabbed at 0% or even 75% is not the end of the world, and you can turn the grabs into a 50/50 instead of a guaranteed KO.

EDGEGUARDING

Back airz, lol
Cookiez, loool
Back air falcon kicks
Down smash

You guys should know the drill.
If you need more detail then ask me since it isn’t THAT linear all the time.

FINAL THOUGHTS
Avoid Yoshi’s Story against Falcon if you can. It isn’t absolutely horrible, but despite the smaller stage, Falcon still has room to run, easier recovery, and kills you earlier than you’d might like. Dreamland is double edged since it gives Falcon more room to run, more chances to recover high, yet your own survivability is slightly increased… it is still more for Falcon since it also hinders your up throw combos a bit. FD, PS, BF, and even FoD depending on the Falcon are probably your best stages overall for guaranteed combos, escape from Falcon’s combos, cornering and edge guarding.

Falcon is manly, everyone loves him, and everyone cheers for him even after seeing the knee for 7 years. It can be a difficult match for Mewtwo, but I say it falls somewhere between the hassles and benefits of fighting Marth and Fox. It’s like fighting Marth’s grab and dash dance game with the power of Fox’s up throw up air, but you can combo him like Fox, he has no projectile, and he’s easier to edgeguard than both.
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LUIGI

Luigi's Magic Number: 103%
I don't feel like writing about Luigi.

DarkDragoon:


Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkDragoon
Well, Luigi isn't as fearsome against Mewtwo as he is against other characters...because Mewtwo isn't super-duper combo'd by him...and I think that NAir gets around...or matches up with most of the opportunities for Luigi's aerials.

On the ground...I suggest getting REALLY good timing down with some wavetilts...cause that's all Luigi is going to launch at you while you're on the ground.
-DD

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkDragoon
>.> All the more reason timing is super-de-duper important?

If you started your NAir at the same time as any of Luigi's aerials then you're just going to get smacked. The trick would be baiting the Luigi into thinking he can get around your NAir, but only to trap them inside it.

How? No idea. Not too good with that "mindgames" thing.
-DD

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkDragoon
Yea...Luigi is a really bad match for Mewtwo...

>_> Luigi is light enough that there are only a few combos that could work on him...but his NAir comes out too fast so getting anything beyond 2 hits seems to be a chore...or dumb luck. Keeping the distance with spaced Shadowballs and keeping on the ground at basically all times seems to be how to take this one... ugh I'm so not playing this matchup if I can avoid it.
-DD

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkDragoon
>_> Then I lucked out when I downloaded them then.
Weee~

But uh...
From some more messing with it...since Luigi does lots of sliding around when you keep him grounded, if you can catch any sort of pattern he follows...and go for the disable! Then get the killing UThrow.

That, or try to outlast Luigi's shield pressure and get a shieldgrab...and that's the best I can come up with for getting that low-percent UThrow kill...but I'm pretty sure he would see it coming every point after that.

If you get Luigi off the stage some how, at least from what I saw in the ShadowClaws, it is relatively simple to keep him down if you knock him downwards or out, so Shadowballs and NAirs are your friend...and DAir never hurts...just hit with it LOL.


-DD

Me!:


Quote:
Originally Posted by elvenarrow3000
I don't really know much about Jigglypuff, but I can tell you a few basic things about Luigi.

He moves fast on the ground, but not in the air, so if you can cut off his ground approach with Shadow Balls, the pressure should ease up quite a bit. Just watch for the waveshield grab. Spikes eat him up on the recovery, because unless he's saved his second jump, he can't get any horizontal distance. And even if he's saved it, he's still in trouble.

Don't try to shieldgrab his aerials, as they definitely won't work, and watch for the short hop double aerial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elvenarrow3000
Well I guess if we're doing Luigi...

Luigi's aerials are strong and they're fast. Very dangerous. Watch for his shorthop double aerials - it'll usually be something like a fair or a dair into a nair. If they use an early aerial that's not the nair, they can waveland out of it, so be on your toes. Don't try to grab unless you're both in range and you know that he won't hit you with an aerial. If he grabs you, chances are he'll dthrow, from which he'll most likely try to follow up with a fair or a dair, both of which hurt, so DI as best you can away from them. Behind him should help you avoid the fair, but if he wavedashes into a dair, he'll probably be able to catch you, so watch out.

Luigi's main approach will most likely be the wavedash dsmash, ftilt or grab. Sometimes he'll use the... Luigi Tornado? I have no idea what it's called. In any case, his wavedash gives him very fast movement speed, but only on the ground. In the air, he's slow. You can capitalize on this by throwing Shadow Balls to impinge on his movement, but watch for waveshielding. Spaced dtilts should also be able to choke his movement. If you can bait him into going into the air, he's committed for at least thirty-one frames - that's a shorthop fastfall. Once you manage to get him into the air, try to keep him there. His dair hurts, is fast and has a lot of priority, so be careful. Your usmash should be able to beat him out there. Take your time, he's not going to be faking you out with a doublejump since he's so floaty. Watch for the hover-then-drop Tornado though.

Once you get Luigi off the stage, you should try to be aggressive and go for the kill. If you can spike him a good distance out, that's going to be the stock because his Meteor Cancel is almost completely worthless. Dsmash is an excellent edgeguard as he can only go straight up with his Super Jump Punch. An easier way to edgeguard him would be with the lightshield edgehog. The same one people do to Marth. Actually, this edgeguard works against every character with only a single hit on their recovery and possibly some others. If you do decide to go with this option, be prepared to jump out and bair him if he decides to be clever and airdodge to recover instead. Oh, and be careful of misfires. They suck.

If he manages to latch onto the edge, try baiting out a ledgehopped attack. A lot of Luigis love ledgehopped fairs, but his floatiness can really screw him over here. If you see him ledgehop an attack by dropping and immediately jumping and can avoid it with a dashdance or a short wavedash, you can fsmash him back out and suddenly he's minus his jump. He can ledgehop double aerial too, so be careful of that if you're going for a shieldgrab. In this situation, if you have a charged Shadow Ball, you can shorthop back and throw it at him, which should be easier than the fsmash. Also, charged Shadow Balls should work well against his Green Missile recovery because of its linear nature.

That's about all I can come up with at the moment...

Taj- Luigi is just as annoying as Mario/Doc.
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Doctor Mario/Mario
Magic Number is 110%

Initial Thoughts- These characters are REALLY difficult to fight against simply because they have less immediate weaknesses to exploit. They aren’t easily comboed, they can escape your down throw easily, they have better priority than you, they are farily mobile, have safe approaches, a projectile that is slightly better than yours, a cape that nullifies your projectile, decent high angle recovery, and they can combo you and in Doc’s case, kill you out of grabs.

Mewtwo has the advantage when Doc is directly above him, when Doc is at up throw KO range, and when Doc is even or below the stage during recovery.

For the sake of getting through these characters, I’m going to focus a bit more on Doc than Mario simply because they’re so similar and Doc has more going for him because he can finish off Mewtwo easier than Mario. Mario has slightly better recovery and combos, but poorer finishers save for Forward Smash.

OFFENSE: Breaking Doc’s aerial walls, coupled with cape, his jab > down smash game, and his overall solid and straight gameplay can be pretty difficult. Shadow balls to cross up teleports, wavedash > down tilts, Short hopped confusions anticipating his SHFFL, and probably shadow ball > neutral air are probably your most common approaches. Doc can technically seal all of those, but the mix up between high, low, and depending on how he approaches will probably be where you end up doing the damage you need to.

At low % You can combo a bit more effectively if he doesn’t crouch cancel your down tilt. Things like down tilt > grab > down throw forward air if they’re not sure how to DI. Down tilt > Forward air > DJC up air > wave dash under him and pressure with up tilt or prepare to shield grab depending on if he DIs the up air away or up.

If you manage to get inside of him, short hop neutral air > DJC neutral air can help put on the pressure to either hit him through his shield, or eat his shield up for you slip in your down tilts if he doesn’t retaliate by going more offensive.

DEFENSE: Swat pills with your down tilt or jab if he just throws high and long ones at you. If he throws high pills, teleport through them and pressure him from underneath. You can also throw your shadow ball to cancel some of the more linear pills, and try to push into him to force him to stop throwing pills kinda like stopping Falco’s SHL.

Disable out of shield can be really useful if you call his SHFFL approach. In order to land shield grabs, it’s mostly going to come from wavedashing forward with you shield up to make him hit your shield higher than he expected, or wavedashing back with shield up to prevent the cross up and possibly land reverse grabs otherwise. Once Doc starts piling on shield pressure, you’ll be forced to run to make sure you have enough shield to successfully block Forward airs. Otherwise, if he gets inside you, he’s going to mix those aerial > jab > down smashes/grabs, empty short hops > grabs, or just straight grab you. Anything that leads to a grab is DOOM at higher percentage. You’re probably going to lose in percentage at first, but as long as Doc is in the redzone with you, you’re in good shape. He SHOULD have just as much trouble pinning you down and killing you as you should have getting your up throw or back throw edgeguard on him.

Edgeguarding: Back air through pills and hit him. Ledge stall then back air through pills and hit him. Ledge stall and wait for down B stall from Doc/Mario, then back air. Jump out at him, wait for aerial/cape, then back air. Ledge stall until he’s forced for the up B sweet spot then roll. A lot of these can be easier said than done, but if you land your back airs then it’s pretty much gg.

Final thoughts: The Marios are very annoying to fight, you’d probably rather fight against a high tier just because you can combo and tech chase them, or kill them slightly earlier, but they are just solid characters that you can beat with your own solid gameplay. Build your damage carefully, avoid their combo starters, and avoid trading when it doesn’t benefit you. Be careful on your recovery, since you’re vulnerable if you get caped, or they call your teleport with a Forward air/Smash/Grab combo. Otherwise, just do the **** thing.
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LINK

Magic Number is 127%

Initial Thoughts: Link is a solid character, good range, strong out of shield game, potential grab kill combos, decent projectiles, and a little harder to KO off the top.

He is a good weight for getting comboed, he has low mobility, most of his stronger knock back moves are either slow starting and decent recovery or quick and laggy.

Depending on the play style of the Link, he will play a solid ground game with strong jab mix ups, retreating projectile spam for setups, or an aggressive SHFFL game coupled with some offensive projectile mix ups mostly involving bombs.

If you can get around his projectiles one way or another, then you're probably in good shape. If you cannot, then you need to find away, because behind his projectile game is a solid keep out SHFFL game that you need to focus on.

OFFENSE: Shadow balls to cancel boomerangs, Fully charged shadow balls to call boomerang attempts and just punish him. If you catch him as he's landing or not crouch canceling, you can have your way with him with down tilt combos > DJC up airs > forward air > up air or keep messing with him with down tilts > DJC up air > neutral air and link those to either bait an attack or set up another down tilt as he lands. You have all kinds of possibilities once you gain momentum since Link is very similar to Sheik, except heavier so he stays in range of you other stuff longer.

When you land grabs, down throw tech chase, down throw > down tilt if he used poor DI. Cross up teleports (especially through boomerang)> neutral air/grabs...

The most difficult Link players will probably be the ones that can really mix up what they're going for. Bomb drop mix ups with neutral air > jabs > grabs, jab + jab > grab/ jab > jab > grab, and retreating forward air spacing can make it really difficult for you to actually get inside. When you do get inside, he may even crouch cancel down smash your down tilt attempts, so you have to be aware of their percentage and know when you can get the clean tilts or grab.

I unfortunately can't think of anything else to say offensively at the moment. If you can actually use offensive strats on Link then you're in control of the game and will probably win because if you're not in your shield then you're either taking too many hits, or the Link has horrible spacing.

DEFENSE: A lot of your offense will probably start from exploiting attacks from Link. Shield grabbing, bomb catching, tilting boomerangs, Short hopping/Teleporting out shield to avoid shield pressure/grabs/high low combos, and baiting attacks in general will be how you score percentage. I can see good Link players shutting you out pretty well, but Mewtwo has enough tools to force mistakes, or in the rare case against high tier characters, just exploit the flaws in his character like his slower grab, his poor knock back on his quick moves, and the lagginess of his stronger moves in both start up and/or end lag.

Final Thoughts: Not horrible, can be tricky though. One of Mewtwo's better match ups if you can get through projectiles and mix ups. I might have more on this later.
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PIKACHU

Initial Thoughts- Pikachu is character that, statistically, shouldn’t give you problems, but realistically he can give you problems. I think the most important thing about this match is keeping Pikachu from gaining momentum and preventing those easy KOs from up smash or up smash > thunder.

MAGIC NUMBER is 118%

OFFENSE- You will probably use all of your approaches against Pikachu because Pikachu has a good enough dash dance to punish you if you get too predictable. He can neutral air through your shadow ball, he can go over your wavedash down tilt, he can jump away from your teleport approach or cross up, and he can choose to stay low to better avoid your grab approaches.

Pikachu can be a tough character to catch, but that’s why you don’t want to chase Pikachu. Your offense will probably start from “pinning” Pikachu with a careful and calm approach. Using a loose dash dance, walking with the threat of tilts, and short wavedashes to mix up your approach and Pikachu’s spacing for his neutral airs so you can get into him and start tearing him up. Pikachu is weak when he is above you. Your up tilt will help you get things started at low percentage.

Up tilt > forward air > neutral air/DJC up air then follow Pikachu with your shadow ball and be relentless. When Pikachu is off the ground with no momentum, or recovering from the air, that’s where you should win. If your follow ups are successful, you should start getting tech chases and down throws into combos, tech chases, and getting Pikachu back in the air again where he has less priority.

You have forward air, back air edge guards, and up throw for KOs. Pikachu has up smash at lower percentage, then just aerials at higher percentage

DEFENSIVE-
If you’re forced to play the ground game, you have to call his approaches, call his SHFFL, cross ups, his empty short hops, and then his down smashes and grab game will start messing you up. It is very important to not let Pikachu get into his rhythm, which is why you want to play it safe until the match is in your advantage. If Pikachu gets ahead, it can start getting ugly. He’ll try to run around more, play even more of a hit and run game with you, and you’ll be forced to play catch-up more.

You want Pikachu to play into your game. You want him to fly into your wavedash back shield grabs, you want him to shield when you wavedash toward him and bite on your dash dance grabs. Teleport cross ups are risky if you’re too predictable, but they can also bait Pikachu up smashes for you punish out of shield. You can do things like Teleport Cross up to pivot shield or even dash away and pivot shield to bait these actions.

If you’re really into Pikachu’s rhythm, you can start to counter approaches which SH confusions to create your set ups.

Edgeguarding- It’s not that easy since Pikachu actually has a decent recovery, but your best option is to bait him to recover to the ledge by standing on stage then immediately teleport to the ledge when the time comes for him to make a move and force his hand. He’ll most likely just opt for the stage at low percentage, and the edge at high percentage because of the up throw KO. This isn’t guaranteed of course, so observe carefully and take all of his options and patterns into consideration. His recovery is versatile, so you’re mainly just looking to get something started back on the stage when you take away the edge.


Final Thoughts- You have to treat Pikachu like a Fox without up throw > up air and a stronger but more compact up smash. You don’t want to lose easy stocks. It will happen, but your mentality should really be no easy stocks, and Pikachu might play it the same way, so it is important that you play Pikachu in a way that makes it feel like he can’t get inside, that he can’t approach you, and that he has nowhere to run. Difficult, maybe, but if you can create that feeling for half the match then you’re in better shape than the Pikachu that has to try to run circles around your big shield and quick lateral mobility to score sneaky up smashes on you.

I think you guys covered most of the match, but if there are any specific questions, go ahead and post.
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YOUNG LINK

Magic Number: 127%

Initial Thoughts: YL is quick, throws/shoots decent projectiles while on the move, decent priority compared to Mewtwo, and doesn't get KOed from up throw as easily as we'd like.

He is a bit lighter than Link, but this only makes him harder to combo when it should count for a KO. Being lighter helps force him off the stage a bit easier from your neutral air, back airs, and smashes though. His recovery is typically as easy to edgeguard as Link's. His up B gives him a little more to work with, but his hook shot is shorter, so it CAN limit his options a little more. Especially since it should be either harder/impossible for YL to use bombs to help his recovery.

YL can be annoying and quick, but I think if you play with a clear head and try not to be too fancy, you can shut him down and keep him from getting those D-air/up air KOs on you. Despite all the damage you may take from projectiles, Mewtwo should live to relatively higher percentages in this match if you're careful.

OFFENSE: TELEPORT is your best friend in this match-up. You can use it to get through a lot of bull **** and close the gap quickly on YL. Your down tilt should be on par with most of YLs attacks in range and possibly even faster than most of his ground moves. Try not to eat crouch cancel down smashes though. Once you're inside, depending on the stage, approaching baby shadow balls to cover boomerang throws and force the YL to commit to an option. He'll either full hop away from your approach and try to run using platforms, SHFFL an aerial to cross up, or hop back wards and pull out another projectile.

If you want to keep that pressure up on him once you've closed in, you have to call how he'll move. You don't want him to run circles around you, but the projectiles can lead into nasty combos if you get hit carelessly. If he tries to go high, typically neutral air as he approaches platforms works nicely. If he gets away, teleport to the platform underneath him, and pressure him with up tilt/neutral air again while being mindful of down airs trying to poke your tail.

When he pulls a bomb, you can also be pretty aggressive since all he can do are B moves or throw the bomb. You know he can't grab you, you know he can't aerial, so when he's in the air, he can drop and do an aerial or throw it at you. If you're ready, you can use that to your advantage and catch bombs while you're approaching*, and use it to force him to temporarily commit to a defensive action and play for aggressive grabs from shield stun, or shield pressure him with down tilts/neutral air.

*Short hop and press Z as the bomb approaches you, or you can play safer if you're uncertain and temporarily retreat by short hopping and pressing R+A to do the air dodge grab. You typically want to air dodge away from the YL though since you'll be vulnerable.

If you ever nail YL with down tilt, then you should have your bread and butter combo, down tilt > forward air > up air, or you can do a gambit like: down tilt >DJC up air > Forward air > neutral air > baby shadow ball > IF neutral air through shadow ball, shield grab/ IF double jump, watch for down airs and punish and up tilt pressure otherwise. There are other variations of mixing the DJC up airs and DJC/regular forward airs as it varies with DI, but ending the combo with neutral air can give you certain opportunities that you may not get with an up air/forward air finish.

DEFENSE:

There are a few YL styles. Some swear by the Camper's Bible, and will continue to run and shoot, hit and run, until you make a glaring mistake where they can get some kind of combo and some will use projectiles to probe and actually play a spaced SHFFL/jab/grab game. I haven't played any good YLs in a while, but I think the ones that still play probably play more of a solid projectile > SHFFL game than camp since the campers probably all migrated to Brawl. :chuckle:

You can tilt boomerang approaches, and read his advance by spacing with dash dance or short wavedashes accordingly. Bombs can combo into neutral/down airs on you, so you have to be aware of where you are and what his options are when he's close enough to throw a bomb and attack you. His forward air can be spaced pretty well on your shield, but your wavedash out of shield should work well if he hits high, and if he hits low, watch out for a follow up down smash.

YLs best kill moves are sweet spotted Neutral airs, down airs, up air, dash attack, second hit of forward smash, and down smash. Only down air and to a slightly less extent, up air, will kill you earlier than you'd like and can also be guaranteed from YL's down throw. The rest are relatively avoidable since they're just like any other character's attacks, but a little slower or they have more lag. What makes them land is the coordination of projectile shield pressure, high-low mix ups on your shield, and Mewtwo's natural size.

Edgeguarding: Back throw > back airs. Watch for air dodge > grapple and intercept with back air/down air. Shadow balls can force jumps/stop YLs momentum. It's probably in your best interest to teleport stall if YL is recovering even or below the stage and play off of the high up B/grapple. Since if you're ledge stalling, going for a sweet spot is almost suicide.
If you're on the stage while he's recovering and he decides to go for an up B sweet spot, if you're quick you can SUNC/Teleport edgehog. If he comes a little high, then just down smash and finish him with back airs if necessary.

Final Thoughts: Mewtwo is big, but it doesn't really matter THAT much IMO. Between long wavedashes and teleports out of shield, Mewtwo can close the gap and try to force the YL to platforms where he's vulnerable, or play a close up game where Mewtwo's height becomes an asset in shield grabbing and his tail gives just enough range to give good pressure while avoiding getting grabbed.

I think the most important thing, is to keep calm. If you're getting hit, it's not the end of the world, but you don't want YL to ride off of the momentum. So if you need to regroup yourself, back off out of his range and charge your shadow ball. If you call his boomerang throws at medium range, then that will be your game breaker and get you damage scoring/KO opportunities.

If any of that was unclear, or you have specific questions, comments, or concerns please post them.

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ZELDA

Magic Number 102%

Initial Impressions- *Yawn* This match is pretty boring. You can't lose focus though, Zelda's aerials are enough to throw you off your game if you get with it at low percentage. She can't really do anything to you, but you'll also have a tough time getting inside if she plays it correctly. Though the stages are double edged for you, depending on how you feel about your ability to dodge her aerials, you probably want to strike Dreamland and play on Yoshi's Story, PS, BF, and FD.

The reasoning, of course, is to get early up throw/forward air KOs on Zelda and rely more on your ability to avoid getting kicked to win the match. This is one of the few match ups where being "tall" and "big" really becomes noticeable to me. It's very annoying if you feel like you're getting hit for no reason.

OFFENSE: You're probably going to use Shadow ball to slowly close in on Zelda. Depending on the person you're up against, you're either going to slowly pin her while avoiding her aerials. On the ground, you should have her beat. You're much more mobile, so you never have to fully commit to any attack. You can pretty much always play a hit and run game if you have to, and since your basic combos pop her up, this is probably where you're going to score the most damage.

Zelda has very little priority underneath her, so coming in with down tilts, and using moves like up throw, despite your initial intuition, may be more beneficial than down throw since down throw places her at forward/back air height at your head. Up tilt/up airs/ neutral airs will probably be your damage dealers.

You want to stay crouched to be as low as possible, to force the Zelda to adjust her aerial timing, and be ready to slide in while she lands. When she's on the ground she is most vulnerable. Her grab range is actually SLIGHTLY better than yours, but it seems to come out more slowly than most other grabs. She will throw out her down smash as a "get off of me" attack, but its knock back is pretty bad against a Crouch Cancel. Forward smash can also be difficult to get around. Your approach is going to revolve around your shadow ball to force Zelda to shield or jump, and from there you'll plan to shield pressure, grab, or slide inside her range as she lands.

DEFENSE: You can doing anything out of shield to get away from her, but you don't really have much to counter the sweet spot aerials. This match is more likely to come down to your offense. You can get away from this character very easily, she can't really kill you unless you stand there and get hit, or you become predictable and teleport/run/WD into her kick range. Most of her moves are kind of designed to be spaced against you or push you away. She's a very defensive character herself, and your projectile is better than hers, so as long as you don't fall into her pace, you should be fine.

I don't really know what else to say... Aim your shield high if you're forced to shield her aerials, use confusion/disable sparingly, and play as intelligently as you can. As long as you're smarter than the Zelda, you should be fine.

EDGEGUARDING: Zelda is pretty floaty, so her horizontal recovery is decent. She can cover her natural recovery pretty well with aerials. Back throw > edgeguards are usually to bait aerials and force her to use Up B. You always want to take the ledge against Zelda to force the laggy Up B. If you ever force Zelda to recover directly vertically, then you pretty much have the stock. So keep that in mind if she can barely make it onto the stage. Take her cookies. :lick:

OVERALL: Don't get kicked. Don't get grabbed. Don't try to just rush her down unless you're certain you won't get caught with a kick to the face. Try to calculate your approaches to minimize all risk of getting hit by those kicks. You're light, so they will kill you as quickly as Falcon Knees. It is very important to not fall into the pace of the player in this match-up, this is one of the matches where you can really control the pace, so by taking the early initiative and taking percentage advantage is very important.

If anyone has any questions or anything to add, feel free to post.
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Taj278

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Ice Climbers are... interesting. It's actually a pretty even match-up and Mewtwo can actually frustrate the IC's more than the other way around if they're unfamiliar with the obstacles you create for them to break.

Offensive-

Shadow Ball itself is huge. You usually want a fully charged one, which is easy to get since you can force IC's to play defensive and wait for you to make mistakes for their grab opportunities. Throw your fully charged shadow balls and baby shadow balls in ways that force the shields up. Fully charged shadow balls can hit Nana, or force both of their shields to get very low, which is the perfect opportunity for you to slide in with spaced down tilts. Grab attacks to stop Nana from hitting you out of your grabs, then quick back throws to split them up, then mess up and get rid of Nana while keeping Popo from trying to take her back and you just take control of that stock until you get the one on one where you have the advantage as a character simply because Popo doesn't have much by himself to get around Mewtwo's range.

All of Mewtwo's attacks just open up when there's only one of them, so just out play the solo ice climber, getting the up throw KO which I believe is 110% on FD with DI at the start of the throw. Could be lower, but I don't feel like checking it right now. What's good is that you don't need to telegraph the grabs for the KO since you can also edgeguard a single IC very easily with ledge hog, back throws, and back airs which will lead to your up throw anyway if you play it correctly.

Defensive-

Avoid getting grabbed with Nana ready to **** you AT ALL COSTS. If the IC can down throw down air you, you're ****ed. Neutral airs are your friend in this match up, if you get under them, you should be able to split them up very well with this move and catch them in the air since their aerials are shorter ranged than most characters. Try to keep them split up as much as possible, don't buy into their feints. Smashes will kill you, so don't bite on anything, just keep going with what works, your KOs are more guaranteed as long as you don't get grabbed with Nana ready to **** you. Their Up smash will kill you early too, and it is guaranteed from their grabs, so I will reiterate: DO NOT GET GRABBED*.

Mewtwo's speed and priority are actually decent in this match up, especially against the slidey IC's that can't really punish you easily out of their shield. Down tilt is a great wall for the IC's to try and break, coupled with shadow ball spam and neutral air to beat their aerial game. Keep the spacing game going and the IC player will have to find new ways to get around your walls by desyncs, crouch cancels, and basically just counters to your over telegraphed attacks by using their higher priority Smashes.

Wavedash down smash will often be their bread and butter if you let it mess you up, so try to anticipate it and find ways to punish it by splitting them up, and force them to use it as a solo IC so it is much easier to punish and deter them from using their dangerous and high reward smashes to create a sense of helplessness.

You will probably get grabbed eventually, so these strats are designed to increase your margin for error. If Nana is knocked away from a neutral air or back throw, and you get grabbed, it is much more difficult to punish you, so you are harder to kill. The better you are at keeping Nana and Popo split, the more in favor the match will be for you. The other main benefit is that a single Ice Climber will have an even harder time grabbing if you see it coming so you're in even better shape to keep up the split. Getting tilt infinited and d-air chain grabbed are the primary ways for you to lose this match up, so simply eliminating that from the IC's game makes that match up a borderline nightmare for IC's, forcing them to KO from straight Smashes and possibly well timed SH back airs which I've only seen Chu Dat and to a lesser extent, Wobbles pull off.
 

Wobbles

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Unbeatable ZoSo. Even with Mewtwo, your punches are too light. End of matchup.

Against ICs, a heads up for M2: watch out for short hopped f-air. It goes right over d-tilt and can cause M2 to CC straight into the ground. This creates a tech-chase situation where he can easily be grabbed. If your d-tilts are too predictable, this can mess you up big time.

Also yeah, I'm pretty bad with ICs back-air :(

Next character... Falcon!
 

Taj278

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SH F-air is slow though, so it's often negligible unless you are just being caught in a down tilt, which is why you don't want to be too predictable, and also one of the ways an IC player might try to break your wall. If you see it coming, you may be able to beat it with your N-air, or you can just move away and reset your spacing.

Date Eiji: His fists carry the weight of crushed dreams, you simply cannot hope to win unless you are on a higher level and know what it feels like to lose.
 

Taj278

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C'mon guys, read my post. One character per week, though I may be able to go through each character sooner than that, but the goal was to at least have some kind of Q&A, or discussion going about this particular match up, and this one is actually really good since Sir Wobbles himself lurks the room.
 

Hpnotiq

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ok... how do you make more spacin against IC's... i always try the Baby SB, but they always grab me..
 

The Derrit

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is there any place for disable in the ic matchup? it seems as if it might be good what with nana not always being the brightest for splitting the two up.

this may sound noob cause its disable which is the worst ever, but who knows being creative can be fun? your thoughts
 

Taj278

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Hpnotiq- Usually teleporting away, retreating shadow balls and going in to the air and just mixing up which direction you're going to go by reading the IC's wavedashing on the ground are enough. IC's shouldn't be able to grab you easily, because you have superior grab range, an annoying down tilt, and teleport invincibility.

Thederrit- I've found no practical use for disable against the ICs simply because it often only hits one IC and the other punishes you for it. There's a difference between splitting them up and desyncing them for the IC player, and desyncing i's what you're doing when you disable. When you kill Nana, disable opens up more, but it really is a limited move.
 

ZoSo

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I'm more interested in hearing about some matchups where Mewtwo can actually fight on his own terms somewhat, instead of just getting ***** around the stage (by the likes of Marth, Fox, et cetera).

Granted, I don't play Mewtwo, but w/e.
 

Hpnotiq

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ok... but what happens when the IC's are a friend... and he can read me like an open book.. i know i suppose to mix moves but it seems its not enough
 

Taj278

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You have to read him back. Sorry, but you're playing the wrong game if you think the worse player just has to acquire a simple strat to win. Brawl is a whole different game.

What you really have to do is just keep creating barriers for the IC player by keeping good tilt spacing and getting good grabs in with back throws to knock Popo or Nana away as they try to punish you for grabbing, or using whichever throw fits the moment to keep the IC player from punishing you.

If you're getting read, you have to just play stronger. It doesn't matter if the IC knows you're going to down tilt as long as you do it in a way that there is not much he can do when you do DECIDE to down tilt and pin him. Don't down tilt into his game, down tilt to keep him from getting into his rhythm. Grab him to throw him off more. Keep Nana and Popo split up, you have to be able to read your opponent to play Mewtwo. Plain and simple, Mewtwo is not Fox, M2 can't just get guaranteed **** combos on people, you have to create it slowly.
 

elvenarrow3000

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Whenever I play as the ICs (not often, my ICs aren't great) the first thing I try is to utilt and dsmash a lot, usually from wavedashes, so I think those are things to watch out for, because the utilt sets up nicely for a lot of things and has quite a bit of priority. The dsmash just hurts.

Lessee... ICs tend to have problems when they can't get grabs off, and you can hit their shield to push them backwards. Watch out for the wavedash out of shield, though, as it's fast and covers a lot of ground, so don't use laggy stuff.

Also, Nana seems to have the stupidest timing in dodging stuff. You wouldn't think a six frame delay would matter so much, but she eats a lot of stuff. At close range, Mewtwo can fling a fully charged Shadow Ball at the ICs and even if Popo gets the shield off, Nana often gets hit.

Once you get the ICs separated, you can whale on Nana for a while, which kinda puts Popo on a ticking timer. Often, the Popo will get anxious and make a very linear (and readable) approach, which means you can swat him away or deal with him as you see fit.

Thoughts? Am I getting this right at all?
 

elvenarrow3000

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Oh yay ^^

Also, I was messing around with Mewtwo earlier and I think it'd be beneficial to keep the ICs in the air. Or just Popo. Their dair doesn't really have any range or priority, and their movement in the air isn't very fast, so you should be able to follow it very well with Mewtwo's wavedash.

Uairs, utilts and usmashes should all be able to keep them up there, and you can do a bit of damage that way.
 

Hpnotiq

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mmm.. i don't play brawl.. but tnx for the advices.. i main mew2.. and i only play him.. sometimes marth and peach.. but mew2 is the one for me.... and i don't pretend on win cuz of this.. just want to mix my game and don't be so simply read.. well only bi him.. cuz im always playing against him...
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

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elevanarrow is very right about not using laggy stuff, it's true against ic's no matter what character you're playing. You can't afford to play it risky against them, a single mistake can lead to a grab which can take your stock
 

ZoSo

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I just realized I'm really interested in Mewtwo vs Puff.

I'll just be patient.
 

Omni_Smash

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lol, probably not but it would be hilarious if he did... just for a moment...

But anyways about Mew2, he's one of my favorite characters but I've not had much practice with him lately and I want to get back into the game with him big time. So against Fox, what is my best freind in terms of a throw? I know back throw and upthrow can kill but is there any way to combo him from a D-throw (old Ganondorf habits kicking in), I recall on ShadowClaw that I saw a shiek being comboed from D-throw with D-tilts in between.

Also how about samus? Does Forward - B have any place in this match up or should I forget trying to play like mario?
 

elvenarrow3000

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Hate to jack the thread but until Taj shows up... let's talk about Fox! We'll be moving down the tier list, anyway.

Feel free to contribute, everyone, I'm no expert on Mewtwo =P

From what I see from Taj and Quak, though, low percentage grabs on Fox generally go into uthrow which can be followed up by one or more fairs (sometimes double jump canceled if they're low to the ground or DI away) and that generally leads into a regrab. It breaks down pretty quickly though, 'cause the uthrow has too much knockback to combo at medium or higher percentages.

So for medium percentages, I'd go with a dthrow into a tech chase, which is actually not that hard, given Mewtwo's long wavedash. If you're near the edge, I suppose a bthrow would work, but you should be prepared to intercept the Fox Illusion with... an ftilt, I suppose. If they try to sweetspot, a dsmash should hit them, in theory. It helps if you charge it up, because the startup lag isn't as great.

Now, before you say "But charging would INCREASE startup lag!" hear me out. Mewtwo's dsmash hits on frames twenty and twenty-one. His charge frame is frame seventeen. That means instead of having to time the dsmash to hit twenty frames in advance, you only have to time it four frames in advance. So it's functionally less startup lag.

Bairs are good for edgeguards if you can land them... try to hit with the base of the tail, not the tip, as you'll get more knockback that way. You can also try landing reverse uairs... much like Ganondorf's reverse uair, if you're familiar with that kinda thing.

Because uthrow is based almost entirely on a character's falling speed (or maybe it is entirely) Fox won't die until... I'd say 160 to 180 on Final Destination. Wouldn't you know it that Mew2king's site is gone? At such a bad time too.

As far as fighting Fox, small Shadow Balls will help reduce pressure on you, and wavedash dtilts will work on the approach, with grabs thrown in the mix. I'm not sure if spacing the dtilt lets you avoid the shieldgrab, but it looks pretty close. If you do land a dtilt, you can follow up with a jump canceled grab.

The nair might work, but... Fox's bair and nair have so much priority that you probably shouldn't use it much. If they full jump a lot, the usmash should be able to cut through anything they have.

If you can't already do it, you should learn to Smash DI out of the uair. Ideally, you'd DI the uthrow to one side (I'd go in front of them, so they can't hit you with a bair as easily) and then slam the stick to the other side when you get hit by the first hit of the uair.

Hmmm... oh, and remember that jab combos are almost never guaranteed, but you have to react quickly.

That's about all I can think of for the moment... discuss!

And I don't think you should be using Confusion against Samus. The returned projectiles don't hurt her, so she can fire a missile, wait for you to use Confusion, then Charge Shot you in the lag time. As far as the match-up goes, we should wait for another day, so we don't get derailed =)
 

Omni_Smash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
175
Hmm... Not bad advice, I never thought of the reverse up-airs with Mew2.... it does look like it would work though and I am a competent Ganon so it shouldn't be hard to take in.

Smash DI i have down, but in all honesty I need to wavedash properly it's my major weakness, looks like a bright future for my Mew2 though... now if I could only get to some sort of blasted tourney.
 

Taj278

TIME TO GET PAID!
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Messages
1,501
Location
MT. OLYMPUS, Arizona
This week's discussion: Fox

This match-up is annoying. It is either pretty easy or annoyingly impossible for you to win and it is largely dependent on how the Fox player decides to approach the match-up. If he tries to play you like he plays Fox dittos, Sheiks, or almost any other higher tiered character, he'll stand a better chance of losing. If he decides to play it like he's a God tier scrub character and you're playing a bottom tier character that has virtually no options to counter an unpunishable offensive machine, then you might be in for an uphill battle.

Offense-

FD is usually your favorite stage for fast fallers because you can do the big 0-60 or 0-death combos that usually even out the match since they can easily do 2 30% combos back to you and kill you at 90% when you have to force them into edgeguards or do 130% Forward airs and 163% up throws to KO.

Depending on the Fox player's experience you have a number of options at 0%. When you get your grab, you can usually do one grab attack then start an up throw. If they have poor DI and DI up/down/slightly horizontal, go for a rising and falling double forward air combo. Make sure you L-cancel and you can either grab and upthrow again and go for an improv combo, or you can DJC forward air and go for up tilt, forward air, or whatever you want reacting to how they're DIing you have a few options that can even lead them back down into down tilts to grab/forward tilt edgeguards. There aren't many guaranteed combos with appropriate DI, but you can always find ways to keep hits flowing, or pressure the Fox and get more hits in.

At around 40-50% I've started messing with Up-Throw to Confusion. It seems to throw a lot of people off, and often times they either fast fall tech the confusion, or they jump out of it very early and you can start to space tilts before or as they land to punish them. From 40% and til you get a kill, your main offensive move set will be down tilts, grabs, and intercepting neutral airs since all of these things set up for tech chases and small combos that lead to edgeguards.

Defense-
Fox has control of this match up most of the time with a much more spammable projectile, faster movement speed, air superiority, and an equally devastating up throw that can be exploited by a very strong dash dance that is difficult to punish simply because Fox is faster.

When I play Fox players, most of my set ups come from punishing people trying to drill shine. Mewtwo is much taller and slides more than many Fox players are accustomed to, and because of this, they will mess up their L-cancels a lot more often OR they will incorrectly space the drill shine and get shield grabbed anyway.

When the Fox likes to Short Hop Laser you from across FD, usually you teleport into him and immediately shield or wavedash into a medium range space where you're still a threat if he tries to laser, but you're just out of range of any aerial or up smash attempts. This is important because you'll both probably be in dash grab range and Fox's SHFFL range, this is where you can get the most opportunities to take control of the match by countering Fox's approaches.

When Fox flies in with a SHFFL Neutral air or down air, a DA Dash/Pivot grab really screws with the Fox's attempts to cross up or space in front of you allowing you to grab him in the air where he can't shine, or you mess up his L-cancel timing and get more shield grabs for your tech chases and combos.

When the Fox is grounded, you would usually like to neutralize that dash grab with your down tilt and try to force him in the air where you keep trying to suck him into your range. You have to keep in mind though that a good Fox that knows how to Dash Dance well will destroy the rhythm you're trying to make and make you bite, get free lasers, make you bite on your grabs, grab you back and will once again just take control of the match by getting lots of up throw to up air combos on you which is GG for Mewtwo on any stage.

Edgeguards- Call Forward B's to the ledge with your Ledge Teleport and get early KOs, you can also time Down Smashes, but stealing the ledge is a guaranteed KO. If you know they're going to Up B, punish them for it by aggressively pursuing them off stage with back airs. Fox's Forward B is laggier than Falco's, so it is possible to just wavedash out of shield and grab him if he lands on stage with it.

Overall- To close distance, shadow ball to wavedash or Landing Canceled Teleports are good. Avoid getting grabbed, especially at the danger zone which is around 78% on FD. Don't get up Smashed. Find ways to mess up Fox's timing by calling his approaches, switching up your spacing, baiting the Fox into you. Get the Fox to try and be more technical than he needs to be. Fox players don't really need to SHFFL that much or even shine that much, but we want them to since Mewtwo's only favorable position in this match is on the ground and it's the best way to get grabs.

It is an up hill match up, and if you play with a Fox player long enough even if you **** him thoroughly initially, the Fox will get accustomed to you and start doing much better. In order to keep your win ratios higher, you have to keep switching things up, keep calling everything he's going to do and stay one step ahead until he starts figuring out that he's over complicating the match and just needs to focus more on his ground game which just requires patience and Jump Canceled grabs.

Any questions?
 

TheLake

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
3,057
Location
Butler PA
WOW to that advice....everything you said makes waaaay to much sense!

Is there a trick to that teleport to the ledge thingy? Like do you just walk off and teleport into the stage or do you have to time the teleport like shieks up B (like her edgehog technique)? does this question make sense at all....? Cause when i see mewtwo players teleport to the ledge it looks so much smoother and faster then when i do it...
 

w!zard

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
153
teleport diagonally down toward stage right when you run off
 

Omni_Smash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
175
WOW, so basically all I really try to do to fox is stay on the ground and mess with his head/approaches and keep him in the air/off the stage to do real damage... I've been looking at this match all wrong thanks Taj.
 
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