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Guide Taj's Character Match-Up Discussion

Shadow Huan

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
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Location
Springfield, MA
This week: MARTH

This match is a lot more enjoyable than Fox and sometimes Falco even though TECHNICALLY it is just as unfavorable. The interesting thing is that I've beaten every Marth I've ever played except for Ken, Azen, and M2K. Against Ken and Azen, I can say that the matches could've almost gone either way. The reason for this is because I think it is purely a technical match for Marth. If Marth exploits his range, priority, and superior grab game **** near perfectly, then it is ****. Having played against the monster that is M2K, the one thing I wish I could change during those matches would be to play safer. Marth punishes HARD, and I think I wasn't patient enough as I suicided and set myself up for gimps that I shouldn't have which may have made the match more interesting.

Offense: Well I'd say that my Mewtwo is very much about counters, offense is very difficult to do against an experienced Marth. A lot of your approaches may be shadow balls between Marth aerials with wavedash down tilts as he's landing and l-canceling, and wavedash into shield against poorly spaced aerials.

Use your bread and butter combos after down tilts. D-tilt(s) > F-air, Up- air. Punish poorly placed full hops and platform landings with neutral air. Pressure Marth knocked off the stage with back airs and good ledge stalls to retain invincibility until he's forced to land on the stage from the pressure. When you get the grab on Marth or get inside of Marth with your tilts, you want to stay inside of him where he doesn't have as many tools to punish you and it's where you might be just as quick or a little bit faster.

126% is your magic number for up throw on FD.

Defense: JC Teleport out of shield to get out of his shield pressure, lots of wavedashes in and out, even well timed pivots and dash dances will be necessary to find the holes in the Marth player's game. When I say that it is about "countering" I mean it is about knowing when you can beat the Marth to the punch as well as knowing when to sway and strike him back. Subtly moving out of tipper range with a quick dash dance, a teleport cross up with shield up to block the responding forward smash with a wavedash out of shield to reverse grab is guaranteed from a shielded non tipped forward smash. A lot of your damage and offense will probably originate from punishing something poorly spaced or executed. Forcing the Marth to let himself get shield grabbed more is how you will win this match. If the Marth plays more of a Fox style dash dance grab game, you have to play very carefully, create walls with down tilt, and probably run around a lot until you whiffs something you can punish him with.

I've been making more use of confusion in general when I've been playing off and on, and I've found that catching Marth's with it right as you know they're going to short hop F-air you works very well. Also using it when they're shielding because you're in range for down tilt but out of range for a JC grab is moderately effective. Though this increases the probability of landing Confusion, it is still a move to be used sparingly and this may not work for everyone. Fully charged shadow balls also can be used offensively and defensively against Marth's Forward Smash by utilizing the recoil effect.

Final thoughts: Marth is more enjoyable of a match up because it is possible for Mewtwo to establish a rhythm. It is easier to find a rhythm against Marth while avoiding and punishing his kill moves. If the Marth starts playing the match like a Fox and starts using more dash dance grabs in combination with well spaced aerials, start creating walls with down tilt and run as he approaches to grab by JC teleporting and keep trying to reset or slow him down with retreating shadow balls until you can move into him for shield grabs, or you find the holes in his approach and can go on the offensive.

I'll talk to the person that edited my combo video and see if she still has the DVDs and upload the Marth matches I had on there since there's not much to go by from anything on youtube. Until then, I once again apologize if anything I said was confusing and if you have any questions or if you want me to elaborate on anything in particular, this is the thread to do it in. :D
Everything you said is absolutly true! I have much experience playing against a good Marth, and I have to say that your assesment is very, very good. From what I've seen and heard of M2K, he is indeed like a beast... my controller would break if I moved my fingers that fast...:laugh: On a side note, I'm making a combo video of my own, and I have to ask... is it easier to put the matches on DVD and use Windows MM then? I don't know if you even know, but I'm getting annoyed with not knowing exactly what to do...

I think I have more troubles with Falco than Marth... **** lasers are so hard to get around when you're so floaty.

Hey Taj, think we could compile all these somewhere? Like the first post or something?
Yeah, Falco's lasers are a pain in the butt... but once you knock him out over the edge he's all yours...:)

men.. its lot easier for me to play a falco.. even a fox.. than a marth.. i find fox and falco a lot easier to combo, u need a lot of patience to play a marth.. its really hard to get close to him
:nods: yeah... that sword is a problem...
 

Hpnotiq

Smash Cadet
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Jun 28, 2008
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Venezuela
i prefer, lasers in my face, than the sweet spot of the sword in my butt, maybe falco can turn mewtwo into a pinball.. but its a lot easier to kill, than marth.. almost every attack from marth puts u in danger..
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
Hey Taj, do you go to ASU? Just wondering... we have a little group here that plays, but we're looking to see if we can expand our horizons. We actually had a run in with Wobbles... he pretty much ate my face... though that was a while ago, and hopefully we've all gotten better.
 

Taj278

TIME TO GET PAID!
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I do actually go to ASU. If you actually want to awaken a new and more frightening monster that's been sleeping peacefully then that's up to you, but I'm happy to play with anyone even if I'm retired.
 

Taj278

TIME TO GET PAID!
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No one discussed much of anything these last two weeks so I suppose we'll take a vote. Should I write about the Sheik match-up or Ganondorf?
 

Omni_Smash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
175
Good luck with that G-dorf is hard to kill, speaking as a G-dorf player the only thing that Mewtwo can destroy about him is Lag and recovery if he hits you three times then you're dead.

*cough* Now, as a M2 player yeah I'd like to know how in the heck I'm supposed to kill Ganondorf, he's a power house that weighs as much as a truck.
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
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Jul 22, 2007
Messages
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I guess the consensus is Ganondorf.

Also, thanks Taj. I'm at home for Thanksgiving at the moment, but I'll talk to my friends ASAP and we'll see what we can work out. We'd love for you to come around and show us what's up.

D'you know where Irish C/Barrett Honors Complex is? That's where we are... it's also known as SHAB or something like that... the Sustainability community.
 

Tee ay eye

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I do actually go to ASU. If you actually want to awaken a new and more frightening monster that's been sleeping peacefully then that's up to you, but I'm happy to play with anyone even if I'm retired.
Since i'm already in this thread, I'll just ask.

When's the next time you're off?

Tony-training would be pretty kewl.

Help another Marth/Fox whose name begins with "Ta-"

^__^

*runs away before Mewtwo lovers eat me alive*
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
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Jun 25, 2006
Messages
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Mewtwo is fun ............ ^^................
Shutup Tai...... noone likes you... lol
j/k

Jeff left me for a tourney in Cali... he's winning money without me......... jerk.........

see you in December or January Tai. lol
 

Shadow Huan

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*Runs into room*

How about Ganondorf? Shiek, Young Link, Zelda and Link can follow too. Why not just have a "Zelda series" within the thread...?
 

ZoSo

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Melee
I was always curious about how you beat King back when he was the best Puff hands down. I wouldn't mind hearing your take on the matchup, but I guess it would make more sense to just move down the tier list.
 

Taj278

TIME TO GET PAID!
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GANONDORF

This match is very difficult if the Ganon player spaces his forward and back airs well to shield pressure you and never does any "unnecessary" approaches that leave him open for you to move into him. He hits hard, he punishes hard, so this match really requires the Mewtwo player to be spot on in timing attacks, but fortunately Ganon has an easy to gimp recovery and can be comboed pretty well. This makes Ganon one of Mewtwo's **** or get ***** match-ups and you may start to treat Ganon's play style like a Marth that can't invade your space as easily, but can easily just pound it into the ground. Finding a rhythm is key.

OFFENSE: Your approach is usually going to involve slipping in down tilts following shadow balls and well timed grabs often following poorly spaced aerials or poor positioning. Your kills will come more from edge guards than up throws, so keep that in mind. I don’t remember Ganon’s magic number, but it is around 140% or so. Neutral air is always a good move to use between aerials, and well timed Confusions might help out in getting through Ganon’s F-airs. He’ll often try to keep you out by using jabs following his aerials, so keep that in mind as you approach and you might get him to bite, then get guarantee your opener.

DEFENSE: Keep moving, be careful when you push into him to get into your range for landing down tilts and grabs, try not to whiff or you will get punished. Watch for empty short hops to grabs, since they are practically guaranteed back/forward airs on you. If you’re forced to shield F-airs it will destroy your shield and then your head will be vulnerable. Ganon has good range but poor horizontal movement speed so try to escape to a ledge or across the stage and let your shield recharge until you can try to get inside him again. Be wary of his Down B. If you see it coming, you can Disable it, grab him out of it or even side step and still have time to punish most of the time.

Final Thoughts: Shadow balls are good since it also can force Ganon to eventually start making moves toward you. Ganon is a good character to get a rhythm on, but can easily take it away with one good aerial. Once you can read him, you’re in good shape. The more times you set him up off of the stage, the better. Go out and get him with back airs when he’s off the stage, especially during his Down B. You can just ledge hog him from there when he’s forced to up B, you can down smash and follow up with back airs, or just go get him with back airs until he can’t recover anymore.


SHEIK

Sheik is a very mean fight, contrary to popular belief. A lot of the things you do just get out prioritized by Sheik. Sheik has better grab range, has low attacks, can crouch cancel your combo starter then combo you back, much harder to grab than Marth, and much harder to KO than Marth. The things you have going for you in this match are less gimp KOs from Sheik, good combos when you can start them, and decent edge guarding pressure.

OFFENSE: Usually at lower percentages you want to start with more down throws since they have to DI away or they get comboed into down tilt and another down throw. Since you know they will DI away, depending on where you grab them on the stage, you can build most of your damage early from there by tech chasing. The key here is to figure out if they’re someone that likes to move away and try to cross you up or someone that just wants to get away and stay away. Once you figure this out you can down throw and even teleport tech chase, or you down throw and wavedash forward once and look to pivot. The second option will give you more success because even if you guessed wrong, you’re still in position to pressure the Sheik by dash dancing towards them after a tech.

Shadow balls get canceled by needles, but you usually can use them to cover your approach as they needle spam, and you can sometimes get them to throw needles at the apex of their jump instead of as they’re landing which can be an opener if you’re ready for it. Getting them to do that opens up teleports underneath them, and wave dash down tilts as they’re throwing needles, setting up for combos/grabs.

DEFENSE: Sheik aerials are just better than yours, so usually all the aerials you’ll land will either be from a whiffed attack or when Sheik can’t do anything about it. You can punish poorly spaced down smashes with a Forward air out of shield. You can stop Sheik’s low dash attacks with confusion*, (Experimental strat) crouch cancels, or a baby wavedash back to shield for a possible shield grab. Use Sheik’s standing needles as opportunities to close the distance by teleporting through them or max ranging them and charging your shadow ball. Do your best to avoid grabs, especially around 120-130% since that is Sheik’s kill range on Mewtwo. I’d DI away from down throw > forward air at 140%+ and hope the Sheik doesn’t know how far you’ll go. More often, you want to try to eat the Forward air instead of the up air, so DI away and DI up for the forward air and hope for the best.

Don’t let Sheik into your space easily, wall off her dash dance with down tilts and shadow ball, escape from jabs on your shield as they often lead to grab attempts, encourage forward tilts since they can be difficult to space on Mewtwo and can lead to your own down tilts, grabs, and shield grabs.

EDGE GUARDING: Edge guarding Sheik is usually pretty straight forward, but it is hard to get gimps. Most of the time you’re just camping the ledge until she up Bs then forcing her to have a laggy landing on the stage, back throw, and repeat until you can’t anymore.

Last thoughts: Sheik’s magic number on FD is 128%, though you’ll usually have to go higher just because Sheik can easily deny you your grabs if you force them. A lot of the time you just have to go with the flow and keep waiting until you get your kill opportunity. You’ll probably see a lot of down tilt > forward air KOs since they’ll be afraid of that grab.
 

The Milk Monster

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I agree 100% with ZoSo, I wanna' see Jiggz next, King was such a beast.
On the current match ups, what is the biggest thing to watch out for when Ganon is attempting an approach?
Mostly bairs and fairs?
Also too, considering your matches with Omar, I wouldn't of guessed Sheik is a hard fight for Mewtwo haha.
 

V3ctorMan

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lol I'm spamming! Mewtwo is cool.........Tony's awesome! I think i'm drunk!................wooooooooooooooooo

Axe is crazy good!
 

Taj278

TIME TO GET PAID!
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I really just beat King because he didn't know how to fight against Mewtwo and I was able to read him. Every time he tried to cross me up, he got neutral aired. Every time he tried to crouch my grabs, I grabbed him anyway. He would try to rest combo me, but Mewtwo is too light and floaty. He just couldn't pin me down during a time where my M2 was doing pretty well.

Milk- When Ganon is attempting an approach, Forward air is the biggest thing to watch out for since back air is usually done retreating. Back air doesn't have quite the same range as forward air, and usually has to be done in a way that he can't be shield grabbed which often means floating away if you move into it with your shield up. He also can't follow up a back air with a jab as easily, which means he'd have to do something else like roll away, tilt, or jump.
 

papermarkis

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I really just beat King because he didn't know how to fight against Mewtwo and I was able to read him. Every time he tried to cross me up, he got neutral aired. Every time he tried to crouch my grabs, I grabbed him anyway. He would try to rest combo me, but Mewtwo is too light and floaty. He just couldn't pin me down during a time where my M2 was doing pretty well.

Milk- When Ganon is attempting an approach, Forward air is the biggest thing to watch out for since back air is usually done retreating. Back air doesn't have quite the same range as forward air, and usually has to be done in a way that he can't be shield grabbed which often means floating away if you move into it with your shield up. He also can't follow up a back air with a jab as easily, which means he'd have to do something else like roll away, tilt, or jump.
Yeah Jigglypuff's a pretty easy character to read. That's like the only thing that makes her hard to play.
 

The Milk Monster

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I really just beat King because he didn't know how to fight against Mewtwo and I was able to read him. Every time he tried to cross me up, he got neutral aired. Every time he tried to crouch my grabs, I grabbed him anyway. He would try to rest combo me, but Mewtwo is too light and floaty. He just couldn't pin me down during a time where my M2 was doing pretty well.

Milk- When Ganon is attempting an approach, Forward air is the biggest thing to watch out for since back air is usually done retreating. Back air doesn't have quite the same range as forward air, and usually has to be done in a way that he can't be shield grabbed which often means floating away if you move into it with your shield up. He also can't follow up a back air with a jab as easily, which means he'd have to do something else like roll away, tilt, or jump.
Gotcha' gotcha'.
I bet Jiggz gets caught in that Nair like it's no one's business!
That was probably one of King's biggest down falls, at first I bet he was like lets do some rest combo's, forgetting Mewtwo is 99% helium.

Thanks for the hint on Ganondorf, I have always had the worlds biggest problem fighting him, regardless of what character I'm using.
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
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Jul 22, 2007
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Oh man... it's more than that... it's just everywhere. The DJCs... all the movement tricks... craziness. You can't get away!

I'm pretty sure he killed me with a platform dash to SUNC edgehog at some point... maybe multiple points... amongst other ridiculous things.
 

Omni_Smash

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
175
hmmm... something else to point out would be to watch out for Ganon's that tech a D-Smash to their up-B, their recovery is always getting wrecked (I know mine is) so they learn to tech fairly well if they want to survive at all.

My tid bits:

I didn't see any mention of the "stomp from hell", which when L-cancels is one of Ganon's best combo starters.

I think something that should be said about Ganon's forward B though is to Spot dodge it/make it miss if possible because as a Ganon player I have been able to immediately go into another forward B if I connect with a shield and it's usually a safe option if no one sees it coming because it moves me out of M2's grab range and catches people off guard.

My questions:

Can M2's roll help him out in either match up (ganon or sheik), it has a lot of distance and I would think it could help get around Ganon's laggy approaches couldn't it?
 

Taj278

TIME TO GET PAID!
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Ganon's down air has a lot of knock back since Mewtwo has low traction, so it isn't a concern unless you let it hit you. Ganon's forward B is just one of those moves that you have a lot of options to avoid. You can wavedash out of shield, sidestep it, jump air dodge down, wavedash back, grab him in the middle of it, tilt, or whatever. I didn't feel like commenting on it since it is pretty much a high risk, so-so reward since it only sets up at lower % and generally won't lead to a KO.

I like Using Mewtwo's rolls for escaping and sometimes approaches. If you're going to use it to approach in any fashion, usually the back roll is better since it is less laggy and gives good distance. I generally prefer teleport to move across people though.
 

TheLake

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I love a well timed dash attack in the shiek matchup

Weak dash attack to turn around grab is the sweetest thing eva!

At least early on that is...

Can you explain teleport tech chasing more taj? Like whens the best time to utilize, stages best used, matchups. Crap like that.
 

Taj278

TIME TO GET PAID!
BRoomer
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Teleport tech chasing is pretty simple, you basically use it when you know or have a good idea that the opponent is going to DI away and tech roll away from you after down throws on fast fallers usually. The stage doesn't really matter unless the down throw some how forces them onto a platform I suppose. It can also be used after a neutral air on fast fallers.
 
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