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Guide Taj's Character Match-Up Discussion

Omni_Smash

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Oh, a question for anyone here I've been looking at more simplistic techniques lately, you know to see if I'm overcomplicating things, and I've been wondering does confusion from the lege have any place in competitive play?

(I do know this is known so don't tell me that it's nothing new)

It is probably very situational but I've gotten it to work on YS and Battlefield. It was so weird the first time I did it to a fox on YS because he litterally falls through the stage, he panicked and lost a stock but the next time he firefoxed to a sweetspot because it still made him panicky. So my question is if this is being overlooked and could open up for some weird ledge game.

For example say I'm fighting shiek on YS and she goes to D-smash me as I'm hanging onto the ledge instead of trying to get out of the way I do a confusion on her to pull her through the stage, even if she falls out of the stage's border and keeps her head on I will have regrabbed the ledge and can pursue with a drop > N-air (to carry her downwards) or D-Air spikeage with Mewtwo's uber recover to ensure my saftey....

Commentary?
 

Taj278

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I use ledge confusions all the time on any neutral stage. It does not give you the same effect as Battlefield or even the lesser extent of Pokemon Stadium, but I typically use it for free damage. Sometimes they'll kill themselves by airdodging of the stage or they'll just get off of the ledge and they get set up for a rising neutral air when you're coming back. If you do it too often, they'll try to get smart and do a falling aerial on you when you're recovering, but 9/10 times you just avoid them by going around them and recovering normally.
 

Shadow Huan

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A new week, and my first post here...

Hey Taj, any advice on Donkey Kong? That monkey is annoying in the right hands! Mini Shadow Balls and other tricky stuff sure, but anything specific?
 

Metà

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A new week, and my first post here...

Hey Taj, any advice on Donkey Kong? That monkey is annoying in the right hands! Mini Shadow Balls and other tricky stuff sure, but anything specific?
Well, I'm not Taj, but here's what I know about the match-up, from my experience (I play against a good DK a lot):

* Don't get grabbed. Grab = free cargo up-air at most %'s. That sh*t murders Mewtwo, what with being so vertically light and all.

* If they start spamming b-air, be patient. Wavedash/DD around, play defensive, and wait for your opportunity to strike, then hit him with whatever quick move you can use in the situation (d-tilt, grab, n-air, etc.). Also, shadow balls help if you have time/space.

* Killing him with a b-throw --> ledge-guard is usually a lot easier than killing with u-throw. At low %'s can you can combo him with d-tilt, but when he starts getting to killing %, just throw him off. DK sucks at recovering, and Mewtwo has a lot of options to edge-guard (d-smash, b-air, d-air, etc.).

Those are the major ones for me, but I'm probably missing a lot. I'm sure Taj has much more useful advice then me though. -_-
 

Hpnotiq

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try using confusion when he spams the bair.. or just try to find his timing so you can d-tilt or f-tilt... go for the head...lol... be careful with the grabs..
 

Taj278

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Well, this week I was going to do a Marth summary, but I suppose I'll do a quick DK since I do actually have some useful strats.

This is actually pretty short since DK is very straight forward. He can be hard, but the match really just comes down to responding correctly to DK's "stances."

Basically you have two main things to worry about. Is DK facing forward or backwards?

If DK is facing forward: He can only grab you. Push into him more and start using your down tilt and grabs more aggressively since he has a poor sidestep, poor and easily shield grabbed neutral air, slow forward air and your grab range is technically longer than DKs.

If DK is facing backwards: He can only back air so use more shadow balls and wavedash into him with your shield up and get him to poorly space his back airs on you while trying to time good wave dash down tilts as well if he's chaining them at you.

DK is kinda intimidating at first, but when you realize how limited he is based on how he is looking at you, then he is easier to manage. He punishes you hard with grabs, and keeps you out well with back air, but he can only pressure you with one thing at a time. Yeah dash dances and pivots can let him react to how you approach but pressuring him with your projectile before you make any moves on a dash dancing DK forces him to hold his position in some way. He either has to start shielding, back airing, side step, or jump over them.

If DK goes too high in the air and you can get under him, you get free damage. Use Down throws to set up easy tech chases and down tilt combos. Meta pretty much covered the edge guard.

Sorry if that seems unorganized, if you have any specific questions go ahead and post them and I'll try to answer them. I was kinda expecting to write about Marth this week.
 

Taj278

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Yes, but DK's tilts are lack luster. M2's Down tilt is much better and DK's tilts are non threatening since they are easily punished and beaten by Mewtwo doing a number of things.

DK's Neutral B is of course threatening, but it is also not worth discussing since there won't be much time for him to charge it, let alone if he gets hit out of up B he loses it. Just don't get hit by it and there is simply no problem.

Oh yeah, DK's Up B out of shield is also something to look out for if you ever approach above him and pressure his shield closely.
 

Shadow Huan

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Well, I'm not Taj, but here's what I know about the match-up, from my experience (I play against a good DK a lot):
It doesn't matter to me if you're Taj or not, any advice is welcome!:laugh:

* Don't get grabbed. Grab = free cargo up-air at most %'s. That sh*t murders Mewtwo, what with being so vertically light and all.
Dk's slow and easily readable grab attemts make this easy advice to follow, besides being something I already do...

* If they start spamming b-air, be patient. Wavedash/DD around, play defensive, and wait for your opportunity to strike, then hit him with whatever quick move you can use in the situation (d-tilt, grab, n-air, etc.). Also, shadow balls help if you have time/space.
The person who plays DK that I play tends to spam/fast fall n-air, but this sound tip will work for that too I suppose...

* Killing him with a b-throw --> ledge-guard is usually a lot easier than killing with u-throw. At low %'s can you can combo him with d-tilt, but when he starts getting to killing %, just throw him off. DK sucks at recovering, and Mewtwo has a lot of options to edge-guard (d-smash, b-air, d-air, etc.).
Already do these things, though slightly altered... Still works...

Those are the major ones for me, but I'm probably missing a lot. I'm sure Taj has much more useful advice then me though. -_-
Thanks!

try using confusion when he spams the bair.. or just try to find his timing so you can d-tilt or f-tilt... go for the head...lol... be careful with the grabs..
"Go for the head?":laugh: d-tilt into a f-tilt or u-tilt works too...

Well, this week I was going to do a Marth summary, but I suppose I'll do a quick DK since I do actually have some useful strats.
Really? I'm sorry. Good thing next week is coming quick right?

This is actually pretty short since DK is very straight forward. He can be hard, but the match really just comes down to responding correctly to DK's "stances."

Basically you have two main things to worry about. Is DK facing forward or backwards?

If DK is facing forward: He can only grab you. Push into him more and start using your down tilt and grabs more aggressively since he has a poor sidestep, poor and easily shield grabbed neutral air, slow forward air and your grab range is technically longer than DKs.

If DK is facing backwards: He can only back air so use more shadow balls and wavedash into him with your shield up and get him to poorly space his back airs on you while trying to time good wave dash down tilts as well if he's chaining them at you.
I follow you...

DK is kinda intimidating at first, but when you realize how limited he is based on how he is looking at you, then he is easier to manage. He punishes you hard with grabs, and keeps you out well with back air, but he can only pressure you with one thing at a time. Yeah dash dances and pivots can let him react to how you approach but pressuring him with your projectile before you make any moves on a dash dancing DK forces him to hold his position in some way. He either has to start shielding, back airing, side step, or jump over them.
Okay, I'm still following you...

If DK goes too high in the air and you can get under him, you get free damage. Use Down throws to set up easy tech chases and down tilt combos. Meta pretty much covered the edge guard.
Yeah, getting under an airborne DK is fun. U-air SHHFLs are good for that even if he's not very high up right? It works for me at least... Down throw combos are my bread and butter in dealing with the heavies or fast-fallers...

Sorry if that seems unorganized, if you have any specific questions go ahead and post them and I'll try to answer them. I was kinda expecting to write about Marth this week.
Actually, you and Meta basically covered everything I could've asked. Thank you for answering. I'll be looking forwards to next week. I've already got a good Marth game, but anything that the Master of Mewtwo has to say about it will be worth reading!

DK can also tilt and Giant Punch you when facing forward >.>
DK's tilts lack knockback, and the Giant Punch is only dangerous if it hits... With Mewtwo's long dodge, WD, and Teleport, it souldn't be a problem.

DK's Neutral B is of course threatening, but it is also not worth discussing since there won't be much time for him to charge it, let alone if he gets hit out of up B he loses it. Just don't get hit by it and there is simply no problem.
Hmm, so that's how he loses it. I hadn't realized that. Another point against the Giant Punch huh?
 

elvenarrow3000

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What do you guys think of the ftilt? It doesn't seem like it has more range or speed than the dtilt... so I can't seem to find a use for it.
 

Metà

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What do you guys think of the ftilt? It doesn't seem like it has more range or speed than the dtilt... so I can't seem to find a use for it.
I think it does have more range than the d-tilt, but it doesn't combo obviously. I rarely use this move much, I usually just do it by accident when I'm try to do d-tilt combos while walking forward. >_>
 

Shadow Huan

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What do you guys think of the ftilt? It doesn't seem like it has more range or speed than the dtilt... so I can't seem to find a use for it.
You mean M2's f-tilt right? It has only a little less range than the d-tilt, and it's sweetspot is a little harder to hit with... It's a decent move, and is actually a good d-tilt combo finisher, depending on which character you're fighting. Against a Fox or Falco, you can keep them bouncing with multiple d-tilts, then smash them out over an edge with the f-tilt, setting them up for a spike, d-smash, a fully charged Shadowball if they're in a good position, or even a f-smash if you can time it. Please note that if the player you're fighting is good at DI, you may only catch them in this once, if you're lucky. This also works on C. Falcon and occasionally Roy, but with C. Falcon you must be careful of the knee. A little longwinded I know...


I think it does have more range than the d-tilt, but it doesn't combo obviously. I rarely use this move much, I usually just do it by accident when I'm try to do d-tilt combos while walking forward. >_>
The d-tilt has a little more range because the tail isn't curling when he swings it...
 

elvenarrow3000

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Speaking of which... is Mewtwo's sweetspot always at the base of his tail? I know it's that for his utilt, bair and I think the uair...
 

Shadow Huan

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Speaking of which... is Mewtwo's sweetspot always at the base of his tail? I know it's that for his utilt, bair and I think the uair...
The sweetspots for Mewtwo's tilts are caotic at best... every tail move's sweetspot is slightly different... Let me see if I can get this right...

F-tilt: Not quite at the tip, but about 3/4's of the way there.

U-tilt: This move actually has a sweetspot, which is the center of the tail. However, this sweetspot is easier to hit with when the oppenent is behind Mewtwo. This works best against a big character, and it has fairly high knockback. You can catch a mid-sized character in it occasionally...

D-tilt: Near to the center of that tail, closer to the body than to the tip.

B-air: You're right, the sweetspot is at the base of the tail. Of note is that the sweetspot is on the bottom and the top of the move.

U-air: the sweetspot is actually just barely at the tip of the tail.

If I am mistaken on any of these (Which I'm pretty sure I'm not.) then anyone is more than welcome to point it out...
 

Taj278

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Tilt sweet spots are located at the center of the tail or up close. You just think Up Tilt has a sweet spot because the tip combos better. Back air's sweet spot is actually the center, but it's easy to hit with the tip and follow it up with a second one that might be closer to the center.

Up air is definitely at the tip.
 

Shadow Huan

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Tilt sweet spots are located at the center of the tail or up close. You just think Up Tilt has a sweet spot because the tip combos better. Back air's sweet spot is actually the center, but it's easy to hit with the tip and follow it up with a second one that might be closer to the center.
No really! U-tilt has a sweetspot! I think I'll edit the tip out as a sweetspot, as you're right, (Thank you for pointing it out...) but when the opponent is caught behind M2 when he's completeing the move, they can be hit by the backlash of the move. It does 10% damage and has good knockback. I've K.O.ed people with it... it's easier to hit a big character with it though I've caught a few mid-sized fighters in it. I'm sure you have too...

Yeah, Back-air's sweetspot is something I wasn't completly sure about, and the combo you mentioned is a fun one...

Up air is definitely at the tip.
::nods:: Yup. Near the blast line it can K.O.! :)
 

Shadow Huan

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Sorry, I typed that sentence incorrectly. Up tilt's sweet spot is at the center, it just combos better at the tip.
Oh... that explians it. No problem. I was never debating the combo potential, just the sweetspot location... waiting on the Marth post. I don't think I'll post here again until that's up...
 

Shadow Huan

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Yeah I was going to mention fast fallers, but wasn't sure.
The only fast faller that Mewtwo doesn't have a clear-cut advantage over is C. Falcon... and because of his superior aerial abilities (Only Jigglypuff is better I believe...), he even has some advantages over other floaties as well. That's if you play right... and if you're not facing someone like King or Wife... :laugh:
 

The Milk Monster

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The only fast faller that Mewtwo doesn't have a clear-cut advantage over is C. Falcon... and because of his superior aerial abilities (Only Jigglypuff is better I believe...), he even has some advantages over other floaties as well. That's if you play right... and if you're not facing someone like King or Wife... :laugh:
Have you seen Captain Falcon's muscles?
Who DOES have an advantage over that, honestly?
 

The Immortal Sir NZ

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That's a tough one... he can "****" just about anyone, but Fast-Fallers are at a real disadvantage against him... It depends on the player's skill level really...
I was not aware of this fact, I have noticed I pull off more combos on fastfallers,
but is the reason that Mewtwo is so much lower than most because he just gets ***** on the ground or what?
 

papermarkis

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Because he gets ***** period. Combos may work better on fast fallers but that's pretty much all he has going for him. Everything else goes against him.
 

Shadow Huan

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Have you seen Captain Falcon's muscles?
Who DOES have an advantage over that, honestly?
Well Mewtwo should. I just rewatched the opening for the first Pokemon movie, and based on that there is no logical reason that Mewtwo should be bottom tier. Yes, being that powerful he needed to be nerfed, but not to the extent that he was...

I was not aware of this fact, I have noticed I pull off more combos on fastfallers,
but is the reason that Mewtwo is so much lower than most because he just gets ***** on the ground or what?
Mewtwo's tilts are better for combos, because they are fast and string together rather easily. Fastfallers tent to fall into these combos much easier than other characters, which is why falling fast is a good thing and a bad thing... and its not that Mewtwo's ground game is bad: it's actually average. He just has no safe way to approach his opponent so he can do anything. Hit and run tactics, playing mind-games and choosing the right time to attack are all key.

Because he gets ***** period. Combos may work better on fast fallers but that's pretty much all he has going for him. Everything else goes against him.
But Mewtwo can actually force the space animals into bad positions. His recovery is miles better, and he can combo them if he gets inside. But if there's a major descrepancy in skill levels then it will be an uphill battle all the way for Mewtwo, as Taj put it...
 

Shadow Huan

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I agree on Mewtwo being a beast in the first movie.
That barely even scratches the surface... but really, if you told someone that had never seen Mewtwo in SSBM, but had seen the first movie that Mewtwo was in the game as a pc, they would want to play as him, thinking he'd be one of the very best. They wouldn't believe that he's considered the 3rd worst character in the game! Seriously: why Sakurai why? I'm thinking that what he did to destroy the clone lab would've been a final smash... BOOM! :chuckle:
 

The Milk Monster

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That barely even scratches the surface... but really, if you told someone that had never seen Mewtwo in SSBM, but had seen the first movie that Mewtwo was in the game as a pc, they would want to play as him, thinking he'd be one of the very best. They wouldn't believe that he's considered the 3rd worst character in the game! Seriously: why Sakurai why? I'm thinking that what he did to destroy the clone lab would've been a final smash... BOOM! :chuckle:
That was the case with me.
Back before I knew AT and such I thought Mewtwo was the best.
 

FastFox

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lol i have a m2 vs. Pichu money match coming up (lol again). I never thought of this before, but will disable even connect with Pichu?
 

Taj278

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This week: MARTH

This match is a lot more enjoyable than Fox and sometimes Falco even though TECHNICALLY it is just as unfavorable. The interesting thing is that I've beaten every Marth I've ever played except for Ken, Azen, and M2K. Against Ken and Azen, I can say that the matches could've almost gone either way. The reason for this is because I think it is purely a technical match for Marth. If Marth exploits his range, priority, and superior grab game **** near perfectly, then it is ****. Having played against the monster that is M2K, the one thing I wish I could change during those matches would be to play safer. Marth punishes HARD, and I think I wasn't patient enough as I suicided and set myself up for gimps that I shouldn't have which may have made the match more interesting.

Offense: Well I'd say that my Mewtwo is very much about counters, offense is very difficult to do against an experienced Marth. A lot of your approaches may be shadow balls between Marth aerials with wavedash down tilts as he's landing and l-canceling, and wavedash into shield against poorly spaced aerials.

Use your bread and butter combos after down tilts. D-tilt(s) > F-air, Up- air. Punish poorly placed full hops and platform landings with neutral air. Pressure Marth knocked off the stage with back airs and good ledge stalls to retain invincibility until he's forced to land on the stage from the pressure. When you get the grab on Marth or get inside of Marth with your tilts, you want to stay inside of him where he doesn't have as many tools to punish you and it's where you might be just as quick or a little bit faster.

126% is your magic number for up throw on FD.

Defense: JC Teleport out of shield to get out of his shield pressure, lots of wavedashes in and out, even well timed pivots and dash dances will be necessary to find the holes in the Marth player's game. When I say that it is about "countering" I mean it is about knowing when you can beat the Marth to the punch as well as knowing when to sway and strike him back. Subtly moving out of tipper range with a quick dash dance, a teleport cross up with shield up to block the responding forward smash with a wavedash out of shield to reverse grab is guaranteed from a shielded non tipped forward smash. A lot of your damage and offense will probably originate from punishing something poorly spaced or executed. Forcing the Marth to let himself get shield grabbed more is how you will win this match. If the Marth plays more of a Fox style dash dance grab game, you have to play very carefully, create walls with down tilt, and probably run around a lot until you whiffs something you can punish him with.

I've been making more use of confusion in general when I've been playing off and on, and I've found that catching Marth's with it right as you know they're going to short hop F-air you works very well. Also using it when they're shielding because you're in range for down tilt but out of range for a JC grab is moderately effective. Though this increases the probability of landing Confusion, it is still a move to be used sparingly and this may not work for everyone. Fully charged shadow balls also can be used offensively and defensively against Marth's Forward Smash by utilizing the recoil effect.

Final thoughts: Marth is more enjoyable of a match up because it is possible for Mewtwo to establish a rhythm. It is easier to find a rhythm against Marth while avoiding and punishing his kill moves. If the Marth starts playing the match like a Fox and starts using more dash dance grabs in combination with well spaced aerials, start creating walls with down tilt and run as he approaches to grab by JC teleporting and keep trying to reset or slow him down with retreating shadow balls until you can move into him for shield grabs, or you find the holes in his approach and can go on the offensive.

I'll talk to the person that edited my combo video and see if she still has the DVDs and upload the Marth matches I had on there since there's not much to go by from anything on youtube. Until then, I once again apologize if anything I said was confusing and if you have any questions or if you want me to elaborate on anything in particular, this is the thread to do it in. :D
 

Hpnotiq

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men.. its lot easier for me to play a falco.. even a fox.. than a marth.. i find fox and falco a lot easier to combo, u need a lot of patience to play a marth.. its really hard to get close to him
 

elvenarrow3000

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I think I have more troubles with Falco than Marth... **** lasers are so hard to get around when you're so floaty.

Hey Taj, think we could compile all these somewhere? Like the first post or something?
 
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