Guide Taj's Character Match-Up Discussion

[Shadow Huan]

I don't have much to say... except that Fox can shine M2 out of the U-Throw Fair combo. >_<

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yea, he can shine marth out of upthrow CG.

tighten up your timing and dont let it discourage you. Its effective no doubt.

 

[Shadow Huan]

Yea, he can shine marth out of upthrow CG.

tighten up your timing and dont let it discourage you. Its effective no doubt.

not if Marth spaces/times perfectly. broken *** grab range son. like mewtwo's should be lol

 

[KAOSTAR]

I dont even know why I mentioned marth lol

But either way, upthrow fair regrab from 0 is pretty solid. I dont think its 100%, but you definitely always will have some option.

 

[Shadow Huan]

it depends on the damage and DI i think. i was playing a fox at the last tourny i was @ and i think we figured out that if M2 U-throws @ 0% than its less likely that Fox'll be able to shine than if M2 zaps then throws. it was theorysmashing though so i dk how solid that is lol. i do wanna discuss the possible uses Disable has on the Sdie-B of both spacies though. not only based off of my recent experimenting, but off of a clip from a video that i can't remember... though i know that i've seen it used... the spacie tried to recover and got ****ed up by a disable on the stage. d-smash. BOOM.

 

[SDC]

it depends on the damage and DI i think. i was playing a fox at the last tourny i was @ and i think we figured out that if M2 U-throws @ 0% than its less likely that Fox'll be able to shine than if M2 zaps then throws. it was theorysmashing though so i dk how solid that is lol. i do wanna discuss the possible uses Disable has on the Sdie-B of both spacies though. not only based off of my recent experimenting, but off of a clip from a video that i can't remember... though i know that i've seen it used... the spacie tried to recover and got ****ed up by a disable on the stage. d-smash. BOOM.

It's a nice idea, and disable is an interesting move, but I don't think it has any real use in edgeguarding spacies' illusions. I believe that if they are in the air, they can move right after you use disable, which enables them to hit you while you're still lagging from using disable, so I think this is only to be used as a surprise tactic, if the person sees it coming they can probably punish you.

 

[Taj278]

Yup. I'm going to be doing a lot of experimenting on low % combos, so I'll hopefully have some good news for you guys later this week. The only thing I've found semi-consistent is horizontal DI being the easiest to do consistent combos with. At 0% you can regrab, and on 3% you can full hop DJC forward air into regrab. Most kinds of inward DI either result in the shine or cross up DI after forward air. They can't shine you out of your second forward air if you chain the forward airs correctly though. If you try to compensate the cancel for any kind of spacing distance you can be shined.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I try to compensate 4 those cross ups with a quick falling uair.

I use to be able to triple and quad fair but I suck at it now, lol not 100% but sometimes they expect re grab and try some fancy **** to escape.

 

[Shadow Huan]

It's a nice idea, and disable is an interesting move, but I don't think it has any real use in edgeguarding spacies' illusions. I believe that if they are in the air, they can move right after you use disable, which enables them to hit you while you're still lagging from using disable, so I think this is only to be used as a surprise tactic, if the person sees it coming they can probably punish you.

sorry i wasn't clear enough with what i said lmao. i didn't describe the clip correctly. you are of course correct about the mid-air disable working like that. i fact i think it gives them their jump back too... but the footage that i saw showed the M2 disable the Spacie mid-side-B and they were in the stun animation on the ground afterwards. i gotta find that clip! D=

 

[SDC]

sorry i wasn't clear enough with what i said lmao. i didn't describe the clip correctly. you are of course correct about the mid-air disable working like that. i fact i think it gives them their jump back too... but the footage that i saw showed the M2 disable the Spacie mid-side-B and they were in the stun animation on the ground afterwards. i gotta find that clip! D=

Interesting, the spacie was probably very close to/on the ground when they used Illusion. I wouldn't think that Disable would be a consistently reliable response to Illusion though, too poorly constructed of a move.

The only true use I've thought of for Disable is if you're in the air comboing them, to follow it up after a weak Uair, and they're in the air right in front of you in hitstun, and if you want to knock them forward, I sometimes use disable.(I just want to follow that up by saying that that is just a theory, I haven't truly tested it to make sure it's actually going to work, but from what little I have tried it it does seem to work. Not sure if it actually is a reliable combo though, so if other people could test it out, that'd be great)

 

[Shadow Huan]

i've been testing it without much success. I would only reccomend doing that if they DO NOT DI. on a small stage near the edge you MIGHT get a K.O. @ high % on a light char like Peach. i've been considering figuring out a way to "Dropzone" it, which would be absolutely ****... but I don't think any of M2's moves puts the opponent in a viable position. you can semi-dropzone the airs, dair being the best imo.

also don't forget ledge-rolling knockback **** lol. comps gonna kick me off be back tomarrow.

 

[KAOSTAR]

disable can disable mid illusion. if they are in the air the go into a tumble. they can jump or up b immediately. the don't get a jump back.

if the illusion lines up with the ground they will be standing in stun.

anytime you can disable them during hit stun it should be a true combo.

confusion gives them a jump back, use to save team mate

EDIT: its not a good choice. it stalls your fall, so can't really drop zone. I have a drop zone dair from a d smash in my video. my favorite dair is the wave land of the DL platform. some ppl liked my moon walk edge cancel dair to ledge hog.

 

[Taj278]

Ok guys, I did some light testing with Axe on handling Fox DI for good combos. The combos appear to be a bit more robust starting with the 3% up throw, but you can still get decent flatland combos (FD/center stage) going with the quick up throw at 0%.

With neutral DI, you can go with a 75/25 on first attempt double forward air on neutral DI with reverse IASA forward airs into whatever you want. (Most people will DI behind you after the first forward air.) Left and Right DI at 0%, you can chain grab. 100% probability of success on 0% neutral DI up tilts between the sweetspot and tip of the tail leading to a second grab. The old Mookie Rah up throw to neutral air without the final hit into grab works, but I find it very inconsistent because of opponent DI.

At 3-5% depending on tilt to grab or grab to pummel: Neutral DI- Up tilt works a little more consistently and it is easier to get the grab follow up. Left and Right DI, full jump DJC into forward air still works on Fox, but you have to be very close to frame perfect or Fox can jump.

0-death is pretty difficult to get on Fox with just juggles, so using neutral air to force tech chase, or up air to force off stage is the best way to link and build damage.

 

[KAOSTAR]

on fd this is worth trying:

up throw fair re grab, up throw sh uair re grab, pummel d throw and tech chase with fc sb.

ive done it more than once, probably not guaranteed.

0-death

 

[A Future Pro]

on fd this is worth trying:

up throw fair re grab, up throw sh uair re grab, pummel d throw and tech chase with fc sb.

ive done it more than once, probably not guaranteed.

0-death

I tried that last night, I hit it twice, but once i hit it with a lighter uair and he fell right into my grab(though he probably could've shined), the second the uair sent him a distance and i had to chase him. It worked fairly well, not very hard to pull off and effective. I like it.

 

[KAOSTAR]

you should be looking for that soft uair.

idk if they can shine out but ive done the combo a few times on ppl.

**** comps with it lol.

 

[Shadow Huan]

there's a new mewtwo player here! =D welcome welcome.

@ KAOS: how often does that work? lots of combos with mewtwo are ****ed up when the opponent is thinking clearly and trying to escape the said combo. that ain't falco lol

 

[KAOSTAR]

edit: if I didn't think it was usable I wouldn't have posted it. I just don't think its guaranteed, but it might be aight.

edit: lol this post is sooo bad lol

I don't really know tbh.

the first part is pretty solid. and pummel into d thro tech chase sb is pretty good.

I start this at 0 percent and the up throw uair re grab part seems to do ok. iknow the up throw uair combos, the question is how guaranteed is the re grab.

0% up throw>fair>re grab>up throw>uair is pretty good.

re re grab is iffy, seems to work in play. but ive never had a ff try to break out of it specifically.
/bad post lol

 

[Shadow Huan]

I would say, like i did... that it might depend on how compitent the fox is. it's **** though lol.

 

[A Future Pro]

An alteration to the combo above^^
On fox, since I had an extremely difficult time getting the regrab off the DJC shadowclaw...

Uthrow > Uair > Dtilt > DJC SC > Regrab > Dthrow > Tech Chase > UCDsmash or FCSB depending on the tech, not sure if it's solid, or if i got lucky, or both.

 

[KAOSTAR]

idk. the combination seems ok based on the move variation with the percent.

but i will say for m2 its better to split up the sections allowing you to change your combos to keep other ones working. so grabbing more helps beat universal di. at least keeps them from flying father and farther away.

taj? any input on this last few posts?

 

[A Future Pro]

Well in all honesty, I'm by far a crap melee player, I just put in the combo's that i've pulled off more than once. I don't have the mental capacity to change moves in a plan, i just do what feels right when i play.

 

[Taj278]

I suppose all of those things can happen, but I was specifically looking for combos that are basically guaranteed under specific DI. So when you're suggesting a combo, make sure it is something that can actually be done consistently with reasonable DI. It doesn't need to be a 0-death, it doesn't even need to be 4-5 hitter.

We need to keep looking for combos that can help us hold momentum and position on the stage. The only time Mewtwo can outshine Fox is when he is grabbed, in hitstun, on the ground getting techchased, and off the stage. So, I'm going to start trying to incorporate more up tilts, and regular up airs and see how much control I can really maintain.

 

[A Future Pro]

I would keep looking, but i'm more running this from experience, like figuring out what should or might work in my head. since I don't have a game around right now. I just made like a 5 hour trip to my grandmas yesterday.

 

[Shadow Huan]

I'm leaving combos and stuff to you guys lol. I'm more of what ppl say SS is, i just sorta do whatever i feel might work in the given situation that I'm in lol. IMO however, M2's edgegame (Not edgeguarding off the stage, Taj has more or less got that covered hahaha) has lots of potential, so that's where I'm focusing whatever nonsense I'm going to be doing. I was @ the Ctconn yesterday and Edgecancelled an Uair into a bair-uair-bair. not only was it sexy but it worked! i love eating foxes jumps yum yum.

 

[A Future Pro]

I can see that, you mean like on the map edge guarding right? M2 does have a pro edge game. I know on fox d tilt > dropzone SC works against fox especially when they phan.... mind****, hang on.... the fox forward b thing.

 

[Shadow Huan]

dropzone SC isn't something i'd do to a fox trying to recover since it sends them up, unless they're at stupid high %s so its a guarnteed kill reguardless. I've done a reverse u-air and gotten the right angle to kill sometimes, nair is yummy if you time it right. lol

 

[KAOSTAR]

did you pivot to turn around?

d tilt pivot fall off uair.

 

[Shadow Huan]

i might've, I don't remember a lot of the dumb **** i do that sometimes works lol. all i know is that if you wanna reverse u-air a spacie using his side-B you have to try and hit with the "Ting" sound, unless your timing is GODLY and hit hit them mid-move, if that's even possible with the Uair. i know that Nair works against both side b's, though the timing is hard to get right. if you dtilt the phantasm or whatever its actually called and they DI in you might as well fair if they are in killing %, if they don't have a jump to avoid it they're DEAD.

 

[A Future Pro]

i meant at like an extremely low percentage, like it hits and they don't move much just keep falling pretty much.

like from 0% d throw, if they're right on the edge d tilt and DZ sc they drop and it gives you a good chance to edgeguard for a quick kill/gimp/whatever you wanna call it.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Keep at it Future Pro ^^ wooooooooot

 

[Shadow Huan]

i dk, that's sorta dependant on how good the spacie is lol

 

[KAOSTAR]

so I tested my combo thing with holding or asdi.

from 0 you can get up throw fair to re grab. ive ben able to get it with alot of Di's-some just harder.

assuming fresh they will be at like 26. up throw uair combos at like all DI. combos well b4 but lacks follow ups.

basically if they di both the up throw and uair away I could not get the 3rd grab. if they di the throw in or don't di the uair to grab works. if they put some inward/up di on the uair the grab is possible (idk how much di)

however, thats only if you need true combos. if you move towards them and delay the djc uair you can grab but the uair won't combo (on a human its still do able, they have get out as soon as they can)

fresh they end up at like 49. pummel d throw and tech chase.

note-the uair is djc.

its possible to grab from a reverse uair or regular. when they di in from the up throw you should be hitting with the back of the uair/reverse.

id say 6.5/10 on reliability. its a good mix up when ppl start trying to change their DI from away. ive used it and have 0-death.

this was tested on falco, im sure a few tweaks are necessary to fit for fox.

ill get to work on documenting m2s go to moves so we can get more solid on this fox MU.

i was watching lucien's tutorial videos (1 and 2) on hmw's channel, he got me thinking about trying to tighten up tech chasing by covering options instead of pure reads/reaction. might be really hard or un do able but if anyone has thoughts on that hit me-that includes the gentle giant and the yoshi main lol.

 

[Taj278]

Interesting, I might be going to Norcal next weekend, so we'll see how it goes. Most people will probably ban my stage anyway, so it's good to know what we can maximize for center stage low % combos like on DL and BF so we can just extend our combos to the top platforms.

Mewtwo's techchases already allow him to cover most options when you have them cornered. You can cover the tech in place/missed tech with DJC forward air/down tilt, the tech roll forward with your dash/wd, and the techroll behind with the a dash back pivot to maintain corner positioning for down throw or a regular dash backwards for a quick backthrow. I tend to play off of reaction a lot, but covering options is a good way to remove "doubt" which increases your decision fluency and general good reaction actions.

 

[Winston]

Taj, you can only do that when they're by the edge, right? Because that lets you get the tech away option as well?

I ask because I've always thought that being able to cover the in place options as well as the tech roll options with wavedashing on reaction wasn't realistically possible. Like I know Sheik + some others can do it by dashing, but to me it seems like the extra wavedash inputs make it harder. If you are able to do it then that'd be amazing and I'd give another serious try at learning it.

right now my techchasing game is centered around guessing whether they will tech away or not, since it's possible to cover the tech in place, no tech, and tech roll towards together. (This is with Luigi but I feel like the techchasing principles are very similar for him and Mewtwo).

 

[Taj278]

Yeah, it is most effective when you have them pinned between the edge and your location. When you're working with the entire stage, as Mewtwo you pretty much have to commit to a direction in order to land your next grab/tilt. You can cover more options if you assume that they won't tech roll away though, basically turning itself into a 50/50. The toughest part is determining if they prefer to tech roll away or in place, then you can increase the probability in your favor.

I'm definitely a reaction player and the vast majority of my techchases are done solely by reaction.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I know that dash attack covers missed tech and tech in place while putting you in a position to cover roll/tech away. sometimes you can follow up from the DA if it connects. but its also cc . you also have to assume they won't tech towards you.

djc-fair/d tilt might still give you enough time to reach tech away but I think you would be too late unless they are at the edge. you also wouldn't be able to cover tech inwards.

as an edge guard- sh teleport to a no jump fast fall pivot bair is hella sexy. im locking that **** down lol.

 

[Taj278]

DJC forward air and down tilt actually does the opposite for me. It gives me enough time to get the techroll back because of the shorter distance. DIing and techrolling away is usually where the difficulty is for holding a techchase, at least from a reaction standpoint, because you have much less margin for error.

Implementing prediction into a techchase is something I tend to do only in response to failed reaction due to hesitation, so covering an option and then predicting would give the average person 2/3 successful tech chases when they're pinned and only 1/3 on center-stage or cross-stage tech chases.

Using options like dash attack I think are better for people that rely more on prediction, but it's more of a commitment that I would rarely like to use than moves that allow me to change direction quickly like the DJC or d-tilt. It is definitely solid for when you call the tech in place or the missed tech like you saw me do in SC1. :D

 

[KAOSTAR]

yea I can agree with that 4 sho.

Its because of prediction that gets me to the tech away.

I can react to in place, missed, or in, but I usually have to predict away when its full stage.

if I djc fair or DA I keep full momentum(if im predicting away) and give up all hope of tech in and try to reach tech away. I can react to tech away and tech in but then I miss in place/no tech.

I switch up between reaction and prediction mostly due to getting punished for hesitation. I would get shined/get up attack/up smash by being too late trying to cover too many things.

either I can barely cover too or go all or nothing at 1.

I like reaction better but sometimes I get up smashed and lose a stock. ill be figuring it out again pretty soon. but I wans try a set prediction way just to see if I can have success with it.

 

[A Future Pro]

If your opponent has full stage to tech, assume he's going to try to get as far away from you as possible, however most of the experienced players i've played almost always go towards center stage if you're near either edge.

Creative option, that works probably 2-3/10 depending on player skill, at about 3/4ths the way to either end of the stage. when you down throw, short hop FCSB to the center of the stage so it sends you to the edge, and shadow claw at the first possible moment.

Sorry if you(anyone) view my ideas as absolutely rediculous, I'm trying to find a new style/form/things to do with mewtwo that Taj(or any other player for that matter) hasn't already discovered. I really wanna push M2's metagame no matter how. I do know how to play mewtwo mainstream/normal/whatever you want to use.