Guide Taj's Character Match-Up Discussion

[Shadow Huan]

The Mana Lord: Sorry, not in the mood for giving Mewtwo ditto advice. For some reason, discussing how Mewtwo ***** himself seems pretty dull to me. All you really need to know is the magic number, because the match is simply... a ditto so it comes down to who builds percentage and KOs first.

it's true though...

As for link... hmmm... I don't know. He's slow, but can really be a pain the the *** with his sword and bajillion projectiles. it comes down to finding or creating an opening and then punishing as ruthlessly as possible... right?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, Link is one matchup where I don't feel bad just dthrow techchasing for as long as possible before bthrowing and going for a gimp. He doesn't really cover his recovery very well, but if he gets within hookshot range, things become unnecessarily tricky, so I try to get him early.

I still maintain that Link has slow startup time on his projectiles and can be punished from dashdance camping.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yeah, Link is one matchup where I don't feel bad just dthrow techchasing for as long as possible before bthrowing and going for a gimp. He doesn't really cover his recovery very well, but if he gets within hookshot range, things become unnecessarily tricky, so I try to get him early.

I still maintain that Link has slow startup time on his projectiles and can be punished from dashdance camping.

If his plan is to camp tho, you have to remain patient and chip away at his percent. Dont get too close with out a plan. Never ever ever do you wanna just be standing by a link that knows what hes doin. Gettin hit with projectiles in the battle is just dumb and can hurt your chances alot. M2 is nice on the ground and decent from ground to air or even just out in open space air like over a pit(if both char are there), but just being in the air against a grounded foe isnt m2s forte. All of the projectiles send you up to get yo *** kicked.

You can dash dance but if he forces you to shield [so you dont get hit by the projectile] or sidestep its almost always a grab. This is killer at low percents cuz dthrow usually gets you hit a second and maybe a third time.

The one thing you have on his grab is that its slow enough that you can step dodge and not get punished. You can still retaliate if ur close enough. [And I dont mean its safe to step dodge just that if u step dodge the hookshot there is enough lag on it that you wont be punished].

Also, a good link will space his projectiles by short hopping them and fading in or out. Makes it harder to punish because you must somehow dodge the bullet and the barrel in order to attack.
Use caution.

Ive played smart links like derilink, projectile thrower ones like deva, and technical ones like silent wolf.

[IMO] Best to play against are technical ones lol. They attack more which gives you more opportunities to grab.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Shorthopping keeps him mobile, yes, but it gives you warning as to when they're going to throw out a projectile, so if you move in on an angle they can't cover, then you should be all right.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Shorthopping keeps him mobile, yes, but it gives you warning as to when they're going to throw out a projectile, so if you move in on an angle they can't cover, then you should be all right.

dont let yourself get conditioned. Watch out for signs but dont get tricked. If Im spamming baby shadowballs with short hops and such and then hop with no sb I can usually get a grab off.

Thas how I force ppl to shield and or shine or cape. lol

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, but they'd have to be smart to trick you. How smart can they be if they play Link?



EDIT: Wow, those're really appropriate smileys.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yeah, but they'd have to be smart to trick you. How smart can they be if they play Link?



EDIT: Wow, those're really appropriate smileys.

not as smart as M2 players.


taj whats your take on the matchup?

 

[Taj278]

LINK

Magic Number is 127%

Initial Thoughts: Link is a solid character, good range, strong out of shield game, potential grab kill combos, decent projectiles, and a little harder to KO off the top.

He is a good weight for getting comboed, he has low mobility, most of his stronger knock back moves are either slow starting and decent recovery or quick and laggy.

Depending on the play style of the Link, he will play a solid ground game with strong jab mix ups, retreating projectile spam for setups, or an aggressive SHFFL game coupled with some offensive projectile mix ups mostly involving bombs.

If you can get around his projectiles one way or another, then you're probably in good shape. If you cannot, then you need to find away, because behind his projectile game is a solid keep out SHFFL game that you need to focus on.

OFFENSE: Shadow balls to cancel boomerangs, Fully charged shadow balls to call boomerang attempts and just punish him. If you catch him as he's landing or not crouch canceling, you can have your way with him with down tilt combos > DJC up airs > forward air > up air or keep messing with him with down tilts > DJC up air > neutral air and link those to either bait an attack or set up another down tilt as he lands. You have all kinds of possibilities once you gain momentum since Link is very similar to Sheik, except heavier so he stays in range of you other stuff longer.

When you land grabs, down throw tech chase, down throw > down tilt if he used poor DI. Cross up teleports (especially through boomerang)> neutral air/grabs...

The most difficult Link players will probably be the ones that can really mix up what they're going for. Bomb drop mix ups with neutral air > jabs > grabs, jab + jab > grab/ jab > jab > grab, and retreating forward air spacing can make it really difficult for you to actually get inside. When you do get inside, he may even crouch cancel down smash your down tilt attempts, so you have to be aware of their percentage and know when you can get the clean tilts or grab.

I unfortunately can't think of anything else to say offensively at the moment. If you can actually use offensive strats on Link then you're in control of the game and will probably win because if you're not in your shield then you're either taking too many hits, or the Link has horrible spacing.

DEFENSE: A lot of your offense will probably start from exploiting attacks from Link. Shield grabbing, bomb catching, tilting boomerangs, Short hopping/Teleporting out shield to avoid shield pressure/grabs/high low combos, and baiting attacks in general will be how you score percentage. I can see good Link players shutting you out pretty well, but Mewtwo has enough tools to force mistakes, or in the rare case against high tier characters, just exploit the flaws in his character like his slower grab, his poor knock back on his quick moves, and the lagginess of his stronger moves in both start up and/or end lag.

Final Thoughts: Not horrible, can be tricky though. One of Mewtwo's better match ups if you can get through projectiles and mix ups. I might have more on this later.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Hmmm... one of the hardest things I see about this matchup I feel like is Link's nair. It's fast and has good priority and range, and it doesn't really seem like Mewtwo has a good answer to that, especially if the Link does stuff like... fulljump nair to doublejump nair, ending on a platform.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Hmmm... one of the hardest things I see about this matchup I feel like is Link's nair. It's fast and has good priority and range, and it doesn't really seem like Mewtwo has a good answer to that, especially if the Link does stuff like... fulljump nair to doublejump nair, ending on a platform.

Just dont foolishly run up on it. You should be able to sb him and if he takes the hit youll know you can grab. try dtilting as he land or maybe even triangle past him for something.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Nair eats up Shadow Balls though. And the point is he can doublejump, so he's not vulnerable to the dtilt. Eventually he can push you out to the edge and you have nowhere to run.

 

[KAOSTAR]

he can double jump if he nairs early off a full hop. you can hit with the dtilt. and u hit with them as he lands [shadowballs] also If u can just use a full charged one

 

[Taj278]

Neutral air spam is negligible. If Link tries to retreat onto platforms, then that is where you typically come out on top anyway. It's a strong tool, especially if used in conjunction with his other options, but full hop neutral air to neutral air mix ups doesn't seem like something that can beat well timed up tilts, confusions, and charged shadow balls by itself.

Link, high in the air, is usually the place he doesn't want to be. He has a much stronger ground game. Link on a platform with Mewtwo underneath is just doom for Link IMO. His neutral air is fast with good priority, but it kinda lacks the intimidating factor as far as the KO is concerned. It has that surprise hit box toward the end and combos into itself, but if you know its there, then it's nothing to be worried about. If you can get around Samus/Sheik/Luigi's neutral airs, then Links should be fine despite him being able to SHFFL them quickly. It's just not as scary.

 

[KAOSTAR]

agreed. REally the only time I lose this matchup is if I get impatient. so I dont lol

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I dunno, what would you do if he did land on a platform away from you? My choice would be to wavedash over with a utilt, but by that time, he'd probably have recovered and could shorthop off to draw a bomb or boomerang to throw. It just seems like nair spam has the possibility of putting the ebb and flow of the match in Link's hands.

 

[Taj278]

Instead of wave dash, teleport. Are his neutral airs so perfect that he can magically do this to you from one platform all the away to another? What kind of positioning is that? That sounds ridiculously godly and unrealistic. If a Link had that kind of stage control, you deserve to lose. Every time a Link FULL HOP NEUTRAL AIRS, he can land at an opposite platform? That should not happen the entire match. If it does, then I want to meet this Link player you're playing or even dreaming of, because I'm pretty sure LINK and more specifically Stages don't work that way.

If he's in the center of the stage, sure. If he's on the left or the right, like you want him to be, then absolutely not. There is no way. Pokemon Stadium doesn't work that way, Link can't jump to the top platform of Yoshi's story that way off of a double jump and a full hopped neutral air, you can't do that on BF if you can't do it on YS, and the same for every other neutral stage.

Like I said, it might be something to use in conjunction with ALL of Links other options making him a threat, but a Link player just physically cannot revolve his entire strategy around neutral air. It is impossible unless the Mewtwo just isn't good enough to move into him, let alone do anything out of his shield.

I don't want to sound mean or anything, but I've played some of the best Link players this side of the Mississippi, and I have to say its their ground game more than any neutral air spam that would ever give me trouble.

Maybe its just me though, maybe if you explained your situation again, I can help you out a little more. Though you never played Mewtwo against me when we played last, maybe next time you should play your Mewtwo against my other characters so I can see things from your perspective a little better.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Heh, nah, I have a hard enough time with my Marth/Fox.

I see what you mean, though, and I'll keep that in mind.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I would love to play m2 against you taj lol. no homo

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i would hate to play m2 against you taj

mostly because my mew2 is horrid

but uhhh

i'm sure i had some purpose for posting but i forgot

taj is cool etc

 

[Taj278]

Gimpyfish62 gains +10 rep.

 

[Shadow Huan]

Dang... I just watched that match you had with SS Taj. Maybe if you had used the U-Air to get more lift at the end of the match? That SD sucked. you could've turned the match on him. :/

You're Mewtwo is still the best though. Hope you get to rematch him...

 

[Taj278]

Nah, I just ****ed up the back air by fast falling instead of just floating, so I fell too far, and I was so stubborn about ****ing it up all in that instance that I just teleported into the stage because I felt like it was my kill. It would have been 0-0% going into that last stock.

Oh well, it happens, I'll hopefully do better next time.

 

[Blistering Speed]

That set with SS was God's way of telling you to stick with your darned low tier lol.

 

[Taj278]

Sigh... getting 4 stocked in one game doesn't mean anything as far as pursuing another character in this video game. I happen to play a lot of characters, most people just know me for my Mewtwo. Its obvious, but apparently not obvious enough.

 

[DelxDoom]

I think the success with Mewtwo was also due to the fact that SilentSpectre probably had more experience versus Marths than versus Mewtwos. Again, probably obvious.

When you're limited to a 2/3 set versus one of the best Falcons it's gotta be tough to choose which characters to use when you play so many characters tho, lulz

 

[Taj278]

Indeed, I still regret not resetting YS and hoping for FD or Dreamland.

Oh well, next up: Pikachu.

 

[Little England]

I miss your fox =(

But anytime you play mewtwo it's a treat. Never gets old..

 

[Taj278]

I wish I was young again, so I could play Fox.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Indeed, I still regret not resetting YS and hoping for FD or Dreamland.

Oh well, next up: Pikachu.

Do you like dreamland as marth. Its my favorite map and I often counter pick there just because I feel more comforatble in the wide open space.

I thought we did pikachu or at least were talking about him.

 

[Taj278]

I think some of you guys were talking about him briefly, I think Quak and someone else, but I don't believe I posted on the match-up. I'm just going down the list of characters that I didn't post about, and it shouldn't hurt to revisit a character in a little more depth.

 

[N64]

I can't wait for this one. I don't know how to fight mewtwos really (difficult to gimp, suprising range and aerial priority, scary upthrow), soz i wanna see how the matchup goes.

Also, Taj owns (necessary fanboyism).

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think some of you guys were talking about him briefly, I think Quak and someone else, but I don't believe I posted on the match-up. I'm just going down the list of characters that I didn't post about, and it shouldn't hurt to revisit a character in a little more depth.

lets do it then
For me I dont have a problem with pika except the upsmash. Pikachu is quick but m2 is faster moving laterally. Watch shield levels cuz pikachu can dsmash to rack up damage. IMO thunderjolt is easy to powershield/dodge/not get hit and m2s recover is good enoough that with good DI you can make it back from the pika spike and fsmashes.

keep your space and watch out for upsmash. downtilt alot downthrow alot fair alot and get throw in.


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Yea. So I had an epiphany lol. I got better as a player and was working towards maining marth but then I was watching shadow claw free lol. And the jumps were whatever but for some reason the ledge teleports when along with the music and made me want to almost go exlusive m2 again.

I feel the most comfortable with him in all the matchups and realised I was losing alot because of effort lol. m2 is too legit to quit lol.

 

[Taj278]

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Yea. So I had an epiphany lol. I got better as a player and was working towards maining marth but then I was watching shadow claw free lol. And the jumps were whatever but for some reason the ledge teleports when along with the music and made me want to almost go exlusive m2 again.

I feel the most comfortable with him in all the matchups and realised I was losing alot because of effort lol. m2 is too legit to quit lol.

Wow, lol I'm honored.

 

[DelxDoom]

I don't think this is too bad for Mewtwo actually, Pikachu has up smash and a spammable projectile but is taken advantage of easily, you have much more Special Attack

 

[soap]

i love shadow claw free.

it got me into ronald jenkees, that dude is so talented and crazy looking.

also, japes teleports are cooler with mewtwo than sheik i realize.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I don't really think Pikachu's projectile is that spammable. From my experience even fulljump Thunder Jolts don't let Pikachu immediately act on landing. The relatively high lag combined with the speed of the Thunder Jolt makes it... less useful than most other projectiles to approach with. I dunno, the best trick I've come up with with approaching with the Thunder Jolt (holy crap that was a lot of withs) is to crossup through them while using it, then grab from behind when they shield the little spark.

Pikachu's moves don't really combo very well, and the usmash is a little awkward to land, so as long as you're on your toes, it shouldn't be too big of a deal. He has things like nair usmash at low percentages and fair usmash, but that only works if you're not really paying attention. Dsmash doesn't really do that much damage, but you can Smash DI out of it if you really don't like it. It can send you at a pretty wonky angle though if you do that, so watch out.

Pikachu has a uair tailspike gimp, but if you save your doublejump, you'll pretty much never die to it. Also, Teleporting through him when he comes out to you will help too.

I think Mewtwo probably has the advantage in this matchup just because he's going to have an easier time getting kills. The only real way I see Pikachu reliably landing the usmash at kill percentages is after a dthrow, but Mewtwo's pretty floaty and therefore harder to chase, and as long as you have your recovery down right, Pikachu's edgeguards won't really be able to touch you. His nair will probably end up being one of his most common kill options, along with maybe random reads on your movement to land jump cancel usmashes.

So uh. Thoughts?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

And, oh yeah, what's Shadow Claw free?

 

[Shadow Huan]

Pikachu...

Meh, you've actually got some major advantages in this match-up as long as you aren't sloppy, or blindly aggressive. (which is now my problem. before I wasn't aggressive enough, now i'm too aggressive T.T)

The only move that Pika has that has better range than any of yours is the F-Smash, which isn't hard to avoid anyways...

 

[KAOSTAR]

M2s forward smash will eat pikas up range wise just its not as good lol

This matchup isnt too hard IMO but you have to watch out for upsmash out of shield and coming down on top of him[the least awkward way to do it] .

In an aerial battle pikachu wins cuz nair has low priority.

full hop thunderjolt is ***** by short hop teleport.[without forward momentum.]

on the ground m2 wins with dtilt and pikachu is the most chain grabbable character in the game [not directly by m2 but others] so throws work well and rack up damage with tilts and baby sb.

kill with upthrow and fair. just dont play dumb and put yourself out there. dont try to stomp pika with a nair dont shield too long [dsmash]. shield grab alot. victory

 

[Shadow Huan]

Interestingly, ALL of Mewtwo's moves except the F-Smash and specials are stronger than any of Pika's... just throwing that out there...