Taj is the best Mewtwo (Ask Taj Stuff Thread)

[SDC]

Is even doing a super low DJCed fair on shields out of the question? Mewtwo is ALWAYS unsafe?

I tried using SH autocancel bairs to poke and waveland away...

but he's so floaty that some characters can retaliate with SH aerials oos and get me before I can get away. laaame

Mewtwo is never safe. That's what Teleport is for lol.

 

[RaynEX]

More teleport is needed I guess.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Teleport isnt even safe.

The startup can be punished fairly easily if their intent was to hit you and you were only trying to dodge an attack. Sometimes you get away tho, if you dont **** up

@raynex-Im honestly unsure about the Idjc fair. Ive done multiple in succession and broken a shield, or shield poked, or hit them when they tried to grab, but my guess is that its a mistake on the shielder.

Ill let you know 4 sure after I do some shield frame data.

Taj may already kno

 

[Taj278]

Taj we had some really good friendlies at Pound. By then end of the Mewtwo challenge...I think I won like 2 or 3 out of roughly 10 games.

So **** beast. I've been trying for a long time to learn Mewtwo, but I've never seen **** like what you pulled on me. You did some 0-80% multi-platform chase on Dreamland that I will never forget.

I'm going to start taking Mewtwo seriously now.

Yeah man, Mewtwo only shines against ballers like you that don't camp because he doesn't have the offensive tools to crack a good player's shell. In tournament it would be a completely different story because everyone could easily just start exploiting M2's horrible weaknesses with hard camping. The more offensive you get, the more holes I can find in it. If I were a better player I MIGHT be able to get around more obstacles, but unfortunately I'm not good enough to get around good players abusing their character's speed, priority, and guaranteed combos. As it is, I can only beat slightly above average players that would try to camp me, because I can still read them enough to have an advantage.

No one knows Mewtwo's defenses better than me. Teleport is ok but you are vulnerable in starting frames. DJC forward air out of shield only works as a counter against specific character down smashes (Sheik, Peach*, Falco.) and horribly spaced, laggy attacks in front of you. Mewtwo can be evasive, but shield pressure is shield pressure and it isn't always avoidable. Most characters can easily punish Mewtwo for going offensive in the slightest. Any character with a grab equal to or better than Peach can punish you for trying to space a down tilt on shields.

Almost anything Mewtwo does on shield is unsafe because it extends his hurtbox long enough for characters to attack you out of shield or shield grab you. You can back air a shield, but they have to be facing backwards most of the time, and they can try to trade with the spaced back air too. It only works if they aren't expecting it.

The safest thing to do on a shield is neutral air. I usually prefer SH neutral air out of shield, but every once in a while I will do DJC neutral air out of shield if I need something quick and they're behind me since shield grabbing would obviously be a better alternative.

You can only really do a couple of auto canceled back airs before anyone will see that they can punish you. I almost never use back air aside from edgeguards. I rarely use it for chip damage because it is so unsafe. Mango said it best when he said, "Mewtwo has nothing in front of him." All you really have is forward tilt... Forward smash when someone is on ledge... and shadow ball. One is way too slow and the other two don't have enough priority or knock back to create too many openings. I like shadow ball to lead into something, because you can sometimes get people caught in bad positions or in awkward frames trying to dodge or cancel it.

DJC forward air on shields is unsafe, BUT I have used it to land grabs on people that aren't used to playing against M2. DJC Forward air to grab or spaced down tilts is what I usually do, but sometimes I get punished for down tilting with easy CCed/shield grabs. If the down tilts end up working from their poor timing or they get shield stabbed then it pays off really well because you usually can get another tilt and then get your grab or DJC up air into tilt/forward air or whatever based on their DI.

Build damage then kill. You kill people by beating the **** out of them. Mewtwo earns every kill. Fox stumbles across KOs. Here is how each stock looks against Fox. 139-170% stocks on Fox on FD. 75%-90% stocks on M2 on FD. Mewtwo doesn't have many ways to get consistent low% kills on Fox. Even if you get a good edgeguard, taking cookies or 100+% back airs are the only consistent ways to score KOs early. Otherwise you hope for a charged shadow ball or down smash edgeguard and you build damage again from their recovery and keep them off stage or you're tech chasing them.

When you finally get what you've been waiting for, you hold onto it forever.

@Kaostar - I'm curious to see your frame data, most of what I know is just observed.

I want to look at Mewtwo again from the basics, but as much as we all want there to be some crazy "hidden" potential of Mewtwo, we're 8 years into this game, the physics engine isn't going to change and people have dissected this character and every character frame by frame. The only thing I can hope for, is finding something that can be used more consistently in front of him, and more escape mechanics that I'm not thinking about. I'm looking more at mixing in M2's light shield for shield grabs on cross ups, forward smash as a baseline keep away against SHFFLs, and further extending Mewtwo's edgeguards. I had a few other ideas, but it's better to take things a little at a time.

Does anyone else have any ideas to help compensate for Mewtwo's weaknesses or punish characters specifically?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Fox definitely kills Mewtwo early on FD. However, when M2 gets a grab he gets automatic combo damage or a backthrow to set up for edgeguard damage. Fox generally only gets bursts of significant damage, but lacks the ability to flow from one sequence of combos and chases to another. His uthrow uair doesn't set up for air chasing very well due to Mewtwo's unique ability to teleport down and his decent air maneuverability. He's pretty much limited to drill shine -> tech chase and uthrow uair for 20-25% max.

I agree that it's hard for Mewtwo to gimp Fox (aside from occasionally dsmashing an illusion -> ledgedrop bair). If Fox up-b's high to recover onto the stage or a platform, he's virtually unpunishable. I think if Mewtwo covers every option, he can do it. But Melee's just such a fast game and Fox has a lot of mix-ups.

Fully charged shadow balls, of course, are useful when Fox is offstage. But I think Mewtwo has some gimping potential with an uncharged shadow ball. Accurately targeting Fox as he charges his up-b with even an uncharged SB causes Fox to drop lower, reducing his options and also giving you time to go offstage with bairs in some circumstances.

I mean, obviously Fox is a really hard match-up for Mewtwo, especially if it's a professional Fox player we're talking about, but if the Mewtwo is also very good (which is rare; Taj and Iori would be good examples), Mewtwo can handle him.

If Fox dash dance camps, you can shut it down to some degree with shadow ball spam. If he approaches with nairs or dash attacks predictably, you can CC -> dtilt. If he uses dairs to counteract this, you merely dash dance grab or pivot grab him. Laser camping is problematic, but most people will get antsy after a couple blasts in tournament even and will opt to bring the fight to you more often than not.

 

[Taj278]

Fox definitely kills Mewtwo early on FD. However, when M2 gets a grab he gets automatic combo damage or a backthrow to set up for edgeguard damage. Fox generally only gets bursts of significant damage, but lacks the ability to flow from one sequence of combos and chases to another. His uthrow uair doesn't set up for air chasing very well due to Mewtwo's unique ability to teleport down and his decent air maneuverability. He's pretty much limited to drill shine -> tech chase and uthrow uair for 20-25% max.

I agree that it's hard for Mewtwo to gimp Fox (aside from occasionally dsmashing an illusion -> ledgedrop bair). If Fox up-b's high to recover onto the stage or a platform, he's virtually unpunishable. I think if Mewtwo covers every option, he can do it. But Melee's just such a fast game and Fox has a lot of mix-ups.

Fully charged shadow balls, of course, are useful when Fox is offstage. But I think Mewtwo has some gimping potential with an uncharged shadow ball. Accurately targeting Fox as he charges his up-b with even an uncharged SB causes Fox to drop lower, reducing his options and also giving you time to go offstage with bairs in some circumstances.

I mean, obviously Fox is a really hard match-up for Mewtwo, especially if it's a professional Fox player we're talking about, but if the Mewtwo is also very good (which is rare; Taj and Iori would be good examples), Mewtwo can handle him.

If Fox dash dance camps, you can shut it down to some degree with shadow ball spam. If he approaches with nairs or dash attacks predictably, you can CC -> dtilt. If he uses dairs to counteract this, you merely dash dance grab or pivot grab him. Laser camping is problematic, but most people will get antsy after a couple blasts in tournament even and will opt to bring the fight to you more often than not.

I completely disagree. Fox can very easily keep Mewtwo on the ropes from landing any aerial or grab. Mewtwo's only saving grace is that he falls down from shine and has a very long tech, but because of how far he goes it is VERY easy to follow and Mewtwo almost always has to tech away.

Backthrow is percentage dependent and grab dependent. Fox can land grabs on Mewtwo easier than the other way around. I don't know what Fox players you're playing. Yes I can obliterate average Fox players, but good Fox players have no problem landing their up throw up air and even if it isn't a straight combo, it is an easy link to a second or third series of up airs to take you from 0-60% and you still haven't touched the ground yet. Mewtwo is very weak when Fox is below him and good Fox players can easily turn that 60% you just took into a quick stock by 50/50ing your landing.

Fox is a fast faller. Sure, Mewtwo can teleport down, but he isn't invincible in initial frames. Mewtwo is floaty, so depending on where he teleports down Fox can be right there grabbing or putting on pressure. Mewtwo's recovery is good... as long as he has a second jump, but Mewtwo is so large that Fox can always take ledge and pressure the teleport recovery from almost ANY situation. The only way to survive is to always cancel the teleport. From certain situations... it can be tricky or impossible.

Drill shine isn't the only problem. Fox can chain neutral airs on Mewtwo very easily as well, and those link into up smashes.

It is impossible for Mewtwo to cover every option of recovery against Fox most of the time. Shadow balls only work if they try to start recovering from above the ledge. If you land it, great, he MIGHT drop too low to sweet-spot, but it doesn't have that much stun. If you hit Fox with standing shadow ball to stop a forward B or up B, then they can still just forward B again and get ledge. The only way to stop it is if you are already at the ledge and you're doing shadow ball to down smash, but they can just drop and up B from that position and going high unless they're at ~140% will prevent any kind of counter KO even if you call it. The best thing you can do is grab and back throw them again at that point, then they can recover from an even higher position.

Shadow ball doesn't stop Fox's dash dance at all. Fox just lasers as you throw it, shields and lasers, then resumes dash dancing. Fox has the superior projectile. If you use it to try and approach, Fox can just go to a higher platform. On FD Fox can just jab it, reflect it, neutral air through it, dash away range it, side step, or do the first thing I said. You can't CC Fox's neutral air with a down tilt, YOU MIGHT be able to grab him if he timed it incorrectly, but drill shine is flawless, neutral air shine is a threat, and if they're in the motion of shining, they'll CC your down tilt and punish you without effort.

Average Fox players might get antsy, good Fox players might get antsy, but they won't make any technical errors. They can bring the fight to Mewtwo and they still have way more cards than Mewtwo.

I don't want to sound condescending or anything, but this Mewtwo delusion has to stop. Yes, a good Mewtwo can beat a good Fox, but you have to understand that on paper, this is an impossible match-up. Sure, Mewtwo has a monster combo on Fox with up throw that pales in comparison to Fox's, but landing that is not only difficult, but it isn't necessarily guaranteed because of DI.

Mewtwo is a fun character, I'm trying to make him competitive at a high level, and I've succeeded. Is he legitimately viable at a high level? I'd have to say yes and no. Mewtwo works best against people that haven't played against him. I still do well against Forward, Axe, and Wobbles. They know a lot of my tricks, but I also know them a little bit. This game isn't so shallow that my Mewtwo can't beat a good Fox, but it is still unbalanced enough to where Mewtwo doesn't do well against Fox on 3/6 neutrals and EVERY counter pick stage.

I will continue to advance Mewtwo's metagame and find a way to overcome these huge disadvantages, but I urge every Mewtwo player and fan to not dismiss these weaknesses. You can try to use theorysmash all you want, but I've taken my Mewtwo around this country and I've seen a lot. You have to keep in mind when you're trying to create scenarios that you're playing chess without a rook and bishop, you can only cover so many options.

Thank you for your input, I'm taking everything into consideration.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Edit:I was kinda jumbled with my words-my apologies ahead of time. If anybody can get anything out of this, let me kno lol.

Taj-M2 earns every kill. This couldnt be farther from the truth. Thats what I love about playing him. I just spend around 7 hours playing m2 vs silent wolf last night. He knows the matchup well, he kept my winning to a minimum(duh). What Ive seen him doing is holding back and lasering, and shining to knock m2 down. He says thats key in exploiting him. Just chase him while is is laying down. Using that speed!


As far as putting things in front of him, I really think the best options are to keep mobile. a baby shadow ball into f tilts/dtilts similar to samus ground game. Ftilt seems to get grabbed less and looks to have more shield stun(this is not based on any data). Ive also seen jab stop approaches{fox-nair}, but its all of terrible to try to use as an approach. Ive encounter players that can consistently Smash DI out of the nair so Ive been using it to knock ppl down with the last hit into tech chases and like you said nairing their shield from the back side, and trying to induce the last hit for a shield poke.

Im gonna just try to get more teleport mobility, I think I had mentioned previously about trying to get teleport routines. I want to see how fast I can move around with near perfect precision of the teleport using the combo of smash and tilt-yoshis is my first stage im working on.

When a fox/falco is recoverying-You can force a smart fox to go low, by jumping out with an almost fully charged SB. CAncel it into a reverse charge. I was able to get lots of edgeguards like that. If they didnt go low I would fire the sb just offset the ledge, so if they went for the stage with a side B it is still at the right height.

It just seems that edgeguarding fox with m2 isnt about timing and options, its a mental game. I jump out and fake a bair so they fade out, then tp to the ledge. You know the drill. I like to WD back, off the stage and go low and come up with an aerial. Its like the m2 version of that thing zhu does with the bair. You still get the boost height, but you can mix up whether you use bair or uair or nair(or dair but its not as good). you can also still fake and teleport back b4 fox can generally make it back.

Obviously I havent seen too many of your matches, compared to the thousands you have played, I dont see you using uair very often for edgeguards. Ive found it to work well in tandem with bair. you can cover more aerial space by having both options.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Okay, well, you're the pro so I'm not going to argue if you say Mewtwo has trouble gimping Fox and dealing with air chase pressure. Forget I ever brought that up.

On the topic of Mewtwo's defensive game, however, I didn't ever mean to imply that Mewtwo can actually outcamp or outdamage Fox in a projectile war. What I meant to say was that, if introduced in the correct situations and with good timing, shadow ball from the ground can disrupt and even foil some of Fox's basic attack patterns and provide a healthy annoyance which can be viable for baiting him to approach you irrationally.

For example, say Fox has just approached you carelessly with a nair and you punish him with a wavedash back -> ftilt. He travels about half the length of the stage and lands without teching. The distance is too far for you to be able to be able to cover many of his get-up options. So instead of dashing frantically across the stage to get there, you throw a shadow ball and follow closely behind it to punish Fox if he deals with the projectile unwisely.

Moreover, in a neutral position on FD, if you're constantly chucking shadow balls at a laser camping Fox, you're giving him something else to worry about. Suddenly he has to make a defensive move in some way and he can't just shoot you up. Jabbing a shadow ball requires not easy timing and the Fox will become less confident if he happens to mess up the parry often. Shining the SB traps Fox in his shine temporarily - if he relies on this too much, you can begin shielding the reflected SB -> wavedash out of shield -> dtilt the immobilized Fox. If Fox constantly nairs through the SB, you can judge where he'll land and grab him in his 7+ frames of lag. Sidestepping is viable at long range, but a close range shadow ball means those 22 frames are risky, as you might be able to catch him with a dash attack before he can do anything.

Running away from the SB is inherently pointless because by the time that SB dissipates, you will already be advancing toward Fox throwing another his way, and sooner or later he'll run out of room. Jumping over the SB is good on platform stages. But on platforms he's unable to laser you. At that point he's just running away, which won't win him the fight. Shielding the SB is good and sometimes necessary. However, once he commits to shielding, he's already begun to limit himself. Sure he can roll or wavedash away, but in that time you've already thrown another SB at him and he has to deal with that as well. Meanwhile you're observing all of his actions and if at any point you read a forced nair or a panicked roll, that should be a grab for you.

SB isn't by any means match-up changing, but it can at least provide some distraction for the Fox and make him have to actually think out his patterns and play cautiously if he's going to win.

Also, I never said CC Fox's drill. I said DD or pivot grab his dair. Some Foxes will spam dair more because it's unCC'able. But dair has less range, does less damage, can be smash DI'ed, and doesn't lead into anything really. If he does happen to hit you when you're CCing, you won't be able to retaliate, but his follow up jab won't set you up for an upsmash as you'll remain grounded. The shine can put you in a bad place, but if you aren't too predictable, again, like you said it's 50/50 that he can do anything to you, so not too bad. At least he has no guaranteed follow-up afterward.

From my experience, nair shine can be CC dtilted before the shine comes out. Mewtwo's dtilt comes out on frame 5. If Fox does an early nair, you will already be starting up the dtilt before he lands. Late nairs -> shine will beat dtilt, but if he's doing late nairs then shielding won't really help you anyway.

 

[Taj278]

If Fox dash dance camps, you can shut it down to some degree with shadow ball spam. If he approaches with nairs or dash attacks predictably, you can CC -> dtilt. If he uses dairs to counteract this, you merely dash dance grab or pivot grab him.

I was just responding to that statement. Yes, DD pivot grabs are great. Yeah, I agree with you about using shadow ball to force an action from the Fox in some way, I was just saying that a good Fox can make the shadow ball virtually obsolete. If the Fox even chooses to reflect shine and you're forced to shield and wavedash out of shield, the Fox would've long since been out of the reflector stun. Most Fox players won't and don't need to ever use reflector, it was just another option they could throw out.

Fox's shine gives him critical invincibility and priority. It can parry Mewtwo's tilts/dash attack, and deny grabs.

When I said that Fox can run away from shadow ball, I meant that he can run and retreating laser then deal with it as necessary when it comes. Mewtwo's wavedash has slower start-up and is easier to punish than Luigi and ICs. Wavedash back to forward tilt only works assuming you don't trade with the neutral air and the Fox is at high enough %.

I haven't really given smash DI a chance, especially against Fox's down air, but I feel like Mewtwo is still too big for it to be effective in avoiding the following shine. If Mewtwo gets jabbed and is still grounded, the spacing is still in Fox's favor.

I've watched my own videos, and I do a lot of the things you're saying, but I'm saying that some of the matches you don't see on youtube go a much different way. Fox is despair, M2's worst match-up.


@Kaostar- How is that further from the truth? Mewtwo has to do 2 to three times the damage Fox needs to do to score KOs when Fox can set up for his kills in multiple ways and Mewtwo basically has to land a high % KO pattern and high% edgeguards almost every time? Maybe the statement was unclear? You even said that Silent Wolf kept your wins to a minimum. How many KOs did you score on him that were "easy?" How many times did Silent Wolf Shine spike you, camp ledge up smash you, tech chase grab you, up throw, up air you? When I say that Mewtwo earns every KO, it means that every stock required something special. A series of tech chases, chip damage, spot on combos, clutch grabs, critical edgeguards.

If Mewtwo makes a single mistake even in edgeguarding it can result in a loss of stock. Missed down smash on Fox's Forward or Up B? You got up aired and died. Whiffed that grab trying to call that dash dance, you got up throw up aired. Didn't call that dash dance? You got up throw up aired. Missed that teleport cancel? Up smashed. With Fox, missed that L cancel? 40% damage if it was at 0-10%. After that... you hope for another missed L cancel.

I've already said that Mewtwo is easily chased when he is teching. That's not key, it's one of many ways to play against Mewtwo as Fox and win.

I've already dismissed teleport mobility as an option. You can use it as a light cross up or to get away and that's it. I've already got an FoD, Yoshi's, and Battlefield rotation. It does absolutely nothing without the priority to back it up. Falco and Fox have the speed and priority to make their illusion/phantasm tricks work for them. Mewtwo just doesn't. At the most it just looks cool to teleport around assuming they don't just follow you because teleport is not invincible at start-up and even if you've already thrown out an aerial following a cancel it will lose or trade with everything, especially up smash.


I know that mistakes don't appear to help the argument, but they do. The only reason I even beat Mango and Lucky's Foxes are because they make mistakes and don't know the match-up and don't camp in friendlies. M2K knows the match-up and he ***** the match-up. No other Mewtwo has taken more stocks from his Fox than me, but I'd like to see any other Mewtwo try to take more than 1 stock from M2K's Fox. If you pull that off, then I'll just dismiss everything I said and reevaluate my perceptions of the game and my skills as a player.

I know that I might sound bitter about Fox or something, but trust me on this one. Next time we're up in Norcal, play Wobbles' Fox and see what happens. Play Axe's Falco, even on FD. Even though I beat Cactuar, play his Fox on FD and see what happens to you. You can theorysmash all day, but it is all about reasonable execution.

 

[KAOSTAR]

@taj-that was an error on my part. I hella meant closer to the truth lol.

I wasnt looking for teleport routines to look good on paper.

I was considering if it could be done clean enough, that it just be confusing. Along with looking cool, just looking for another gimmick that ppl would have to learn to exploit.

alot of m2s gameplay relies on the ruse and confuse tactics. vman holla lol

 

[Silent Wolf]

im picking up mewtwo, just sayin

also, kline you werent even at my house for 7 hours lol. you played m2 for like 1.5 hrs tops =p

 

[maXXXpower]

@taj-that was an error on my part. I hella meant closer to the truth lol.

Yeah, I was confused, too. I thought you disagreed with him because I read the first sentence, but the paragraphs following it seemed to concur with everything Taj was saying. I was like, wat?

This thread is interesting and informative. The cut of your jib, Tony--I like it.

 

[KAOSTAR]

im picking up mewtwo, just sayin

also, kline you werent even at my house for 7 hours lol. you played m2 for like 1.5 hrs tops =p

I got there at like 6 30 and left at like 1 45

edit I guess thats not even 7 lol but whatever. I played mostly m2 that night. It was alot more than 1.5 hours. I wouldnt have come if we were gonna smash so little.

also hella tight ur pickin up m2

edit again-so apparently I got there a little after 7 gg otto lol 6 hours and 15 minutes.-15 for the jack n the box run. get at me.

@taj-two questions, can you vaguely describe your rotation on those 3 stages. and How did you get m2k to go fox lol?

 

[DelxDoom]

gahhh why doesn't mewtwo have Peach Priority.

I'm trying to think of other characters' strengths that Mewtwo could attempt to emulate, but we all know that doesn't work haha

 

[ChivalRuse]

I was messing around on FD in training mode today.

Got dtilt -> uthrow -> fair -> fair -> dtilt -> DJC fair -> jump -> fully charged shadow ball to combo on Falco. It registered on the combo meter as a 6 hit 84% combo (the dtilt obviously didn't combo into the grab ).

 

[DelxDoom]

So what are the best ways to take advantage of a successful Disable?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Usually, grab.

 

[KAOSTAR]

So what are the best ways to take advantage of a successful Disable?

Depends on the percent and where they are when you disable them.

higher mid to Higher percents towards the edge. I like downsmash.

I like to grab at low to lower mid percents. if they are towards the edge I hope for dthrow ftilt into and edgeguard.

middle of the stage, lower thru mid. prob better off trying to start a tech chase to rack up damage. dthrow.

If the percent is low you can decide to go for a djc assault. or say **** it and charge your SB. only charge, you dont have time to throw it.

 

[DelxDoom]

I'd rather uthrow to set up time to charge.

And there should be a way to combo into the grab besides grabbing right away imo... depending on percent, dtilt, fair, and especially down air sound nice. I'm liking the idea of down air since it's very difficult to hit otherwise, but it has the most hitstun.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Dair also does 16% fresh.

But anything with high knockback gives you time to charge a shadow ball (bthrow/dsmash/fully charged SB), not just uthrow. Just throwing that out there.

 

[Clint_Eastwood]

Wow, Mewtwo boards have exploded while I was sick! This is awesome!!

I feel I little bit silly about my earlier post. I played a really good Falco the other day. He ***** me silly and showed me just how noob I was still. I had to rethink my strategies a little... As to my 'spider over the wolf' analogy, I still think Mewtwo has great defensive capabilities. But when I say that I don't mean simply defending against attacks, but overall tactics. Such as successful retreats and such. But yeah... Mewtwo really isn't ever safe, as KAOSTAR was saying.

As to Mewtwo having nothing in front of him, I'm going to have to disagree Taj. I have an easy (not really) time doing damage on Foxes with d-tilt and f-tilt. Once he is at reasonable damage I can usually get a short-hop neutral or forward air off. I actually use confusion a lot during my d-tilt, f-tilt assaults and of course his grab is worked in there.

So for example, I'm playing against Fox. He tries to start up one of his immensely gay neutral air chains. I manage to avoid it and wait for him to mess up his spacing a little. Hopefully I'm sitting in my shield waiting to grab him. Once I grab him I throw him down, chase him and follow up with a d-tilt, I usually get two off and then I'll hit him with a f-tilt to get him away from me. So he has a little damage on him... I retreat, wait for a similar situation and then repeat OR I will throw him up and depending on whether my opponent can DI or not I will hit them with an up smash. I seriously think people underestimate the power of Mewtwo's up smash. Sometimes I'll even get two off, depending on a few things. Most of the time I just jump up after him and try for a neutral air, I've had limited success with this. And then I will try to just get a grab and toss him off the side, following him off and getting some back airs off, or neutral airs, or I will sit at the edge and charge up shadowball.

Whenever Fox is knocked down and tries to attack me instead of rolling or recovering I've been using confusion to knock him back down again, then/or I will spam d-tilts and finish with a f-tilt until he is away from me. This is just my bread and butter though. I've been working in up-tilt a lot more and using shadowball to annoy people trying to camp me out.

As you can see, most of the game I am fighting Fox while facing him. I run around a lot, and yes I'm Mewtwo so I have to take advantage of the other player's mistakes, but once I get my hands on a fastfaller I generally do quite well. Am I just playing bad players here? I don't know what to think anymore. I always thought Mewtwo's tilts were amazing. I mean, even if you look at the frame data his tilts stand up to the fastest characters in the game.

F-Tilt: Mewtwo - 31 / Fox - 26 / Very small difference.
D-Tilt: Mewtwo - 29 / Fox - 29 / O.o
U-Tilt: Mewtwo - 31 / Fox - 24 / Ah well, it's not a huge difference.

EDIT:I forgot to mention that what Mewtwo's tilts lack in speed they make up for in range (compared to Fox). So really, when you factor that in, it becomes apparent that 'on paper' this much of the match-up is actually quite balanced. I'll go into more of my theories versus Fox later, after people have discussed this a little more.

But you see my point right? Once Mewtwo is up close and personal with a Fox I believe he can win. You can link so many of his tilts together, finish with a grab, neutral air, DJC shadowclaw. AND If I ever get a grab on a Fox right off the bat, I almost always up throw into up smash and then follow with either an u-tilt or some sort of air attack. That's like a free 40%! I mean... You just have to know when to let him have room to breath. You gotta be shifty.

If I am crazy guys? I hope you would tell me, seriously. When ever I play against a Fox or Falco it's always one-sided, either I own him or I get owned. But more and more lately I've been the one coming out on top. I'm starting to see a lot of Mewtwo's true potential over his major weaknesses. And ditto for Fox. People, Fox has weaknesses, we just need to learn how to exploit them consistently.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm going to play a lot of Mewtwo tomorrow and experiment with SH retreating confusion, retreating fair, and upward angled ftilt to beat Fox's nair.

I'm also gonna try to use the shadow ball charging animation more aggressively.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I'm going to play a lot of Mewtwo tomorrow and experiment with SH retreating confusion, retreating fair, and upward angled ftilt to beat Fox's nair.

I'm also gonna try to use the shadow ball charging animation more aggressively.

Dont bother. Confusion isnt safe by nature. You always are at a disadvantage when you hit with it. If you mean disable, it wont stop a nair, fox will start to tumble but can just hit u with a nair all the same. the hitbox is 2 small and you are still gonna get hit.

I personally like the ftilt option, but that only works if they are coming at your current spot. Most foxes will nair through you. Like taj said, your WD startup takes to long and you will trade hits at best. Thats unnecessary damage which is poor m2 play. you are better off trying to shield or powershield and nairing oos.

You jump to slow to react with a fair and be precise. djc the fair wont make it much better. It will prob just leave you jumpless and stuck in a soft nair combo.

@clint-If you want to beat fox, you shouldnt really be sitting in it waiting for fox. You shield attacks and move on. You have to be active and do your best to call approaches and apply proper spacing.

M2 doesnt have anything in front of him. His best aerial approach is nair.M2 had a huge hurtbox, and then he uses hit body as a hitbox. no thanks bro. Tilts lack alot of speed and never beat lasers. you take damage vs fox for just existing.

31-26-31 or whatever dont stand up to 1 by any means.

I dont think you have played foxes that play the matchup correctly. Its sooo hard to have to approach because you want fox to stop lasering, yet you lack approaches. Sakurai sent m2 in to get his *** kicked.

I find it funny you can argue for m2 being good/balanced vs fox. You said, I manage to avoid hit neutral air spams. If you have some sort of secret that consistenty allows you to deal with foxs aerial approaches please share. Otherwise you might as say I think the matchup is balanced, skip everything and say cuz you manage to win at least half the time.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I don't think the match-up is balanced at all. It's just that when I call poorly spaced nairs, I get grabs. When I get grabs, I get tech chases or edgeguard opportunities - thus, I put Fox on the defensive, which is better than him attacking me.

Btw, when I said retreating confusion, I was stupid. Using confusion in the air for the first time causes you to sort of boost up in the air to a height that's just not good. DD pivot confusion might have some uses, though. It doesn't extend your hurtbox much if I'm correct, and it could be useful for thwarting approaches due to it's disjointed nature. Plus, it can set up tech chases.

Fair doesn't have much range, you're right. Nair out of shield is definitely more reliable when you're on the defensive.

 

[TheLake]

why is m2's thread have soooo much information

taj is a godsend

we got to do low tier teams

and we didnt lose once!

But i digress

I think m2 has the potential to be a brutal tech chaser. Like at pound taj would tech chase through platforms with m2s side b

that **** move....i think

can make m2 legit

but i think when you play m2

you cant really make mistakes

and have to play sooo weird

its depressing cause m2 keeps ya coming back

cause hes frankly

regardless what anyone says

the most bad *** character in the game

mother ****er doesnt even clap when he loses

hes just like "***** i wasnt even trying"

and we know he was...

he was trying so hard

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm thinking very seriously about being a Marth/Mewtwo main like Taj.

My Fox is garbage anyway.

 

[maXXXpower]

hes just like "***** i wasnt even trying"

and we know he was...

he was trying so hard

hahaha. sooooo goooood.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I don't think the match-up is balanced at all. It's just that when I call poorly spaced nairs, I get grabs. When I get grabs, I get tech chases or edgeguard opportunities - thus, I put Fox on the defensive, which is better than him attacking me.

Btw, when I said retreating confusion, I was stupid. Using confusion in the air for the first time causes you to sort of boost up in the air to a height that's just not good. DD pivot confusion might have some uses, though. It doesn't extend your hurtbox much if I'm correct, and it could be useful for thwarting approaches due to it's disjointed nature. Plus, it can set up tech chases.

Fair doesn't have much range, you're right. Nair out of shield is definitely more reliable when you're on the defensive.

you gotta stop wit this confusion nonsense. the point is that its a special type of grab. like lucarios side B bowser side b kinda like egg lay and kirby sucking you up. Even if those arent grabs. You are held captive in some way.

When you hit with confusion, they can bair you b4 you finish the animation. I dont think they get close enough when you pull them thru platforms, but on stage, thats asking for a hit if they realize they are spinning un controllably.

they can just mash buttons and hit you. You can be punished like 95% of the time. and if gives them their jump back. thats pretty much irrelevant but yea

 

[Clint_Eastwood]

@clint-If you want to beat fox, you shouldnt really be sitting in it waiting for fox. You shield attacks and move on. You have to be active and do your best to call approaches and apply proper spacing.

M2 doesnt have anything in front of him. His best aerial approach is nair.M2 had a huge hurtbox, and then he uses hit body as a hitbox. no thanks bro. Tilts lack alot of speed and never beat lasers. you take damage vs fox for just existing.

31-26-31 or whatever dont stand up to 1 by any means.

I dont think you have played foxes that play the matchup correctly. Its sooo hard to have to approach because you want fox to stop lasering, yet you lack approaches. Sakurai sent m2 in to get his *** kicked.

I find it funny you can argue for m2 being good/balanced vs fox. You said, I manage to avoid hit neutral air spams. If you have some sort of secret that consistenty allows you to deal with foxs aerial approaches please share. Otherwise you might as say I think the matchup is balanced, skip everything and say cuz you manage to win at least half the time.

See here's the thing... I never said the entire match-up was balanced. You'd have to be a ****** to think that. All I did was compare their tilts since the topic I was trying to discuss, was how I fight Fox once I'm face-to-face with him... Why the **** did you bring lasers into this? I'm simply comparing move sets to bring the discussion back to basics. Which is; what is Mewtwo's strengths against Fox?

Honestly people, I realize my posts are long and I'm not playing amazingly skilled players. But at least I'm trying to discuss things. If you are just going to skim through my posts and read what you want to read, rather then what I've actually typed out... Don't bother responding.

I never said I sit in my shield while he n-air spams, either. I said if he messes up his spacing then I can sit in shield then grab. By that I mean I might be in shield for no longer than a half-second...

 

[KAOSTAR]

the point is that, it doesnt matter if m2 has a better tilt than fox.

there is no reason to compare specific moves because there is an entire meta game that encompasses all of the moves. When you are face to face with fox, he has much better options than to try to tilt you.

this game isnt played tit for tat in that sense. I dont need to try to counter foxs upsmash with my own. I dont need to say m2s has a better f tilt than fox.

If thats the case then fox prob just wont ftilt.

Long story short, those were the reasons I disagreed with your post. I didnt think you presented very good options based on how the actual matchup goes.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i remember when i used to make humongous informative posts back when i played melee a lot

good times good times

i miss you taj =(

 

[DelxDoom]

Nair out of shield when they do a deep shine/nair?

There's no way you're gonna get a Disable on a aerial-shine-repeat Fox, the reason why I'm talking about Disable is because it is pretty much the best combo starter on hit. But we should also figure out the best combo FROM this.

Also we could just be psychic and full jump fair anyone's approach for maximum awesomeness.


Taj is a beast gimpy, he makes his posts wayyy too awesome.

 

[Shadow Huan]

wow what happened?

I fear I don't have much to add.

DelxDoom you shouldn't be thinking of Disabling too much. it's cool to be able to land it and get a free hit (or even knockback) but at 15 frames the start-up is long enough that a simple poke in the face will stop it, and it can be REFLECTED back at you.

It would be great if you could figure out something to do after a sucessful Disable besides a grab, but I really personally believe Mewtwo's game isn't about combos, most of which are interruptable and can be escaped, but its about getting a grab, getting gimps and playing smarter than the opponent.

As Taj has said, I really think that the offstage potental hasn't been explored enough, and that's where I'm doing most of my experimental nonsense.

@ KAOS: a few pages back you said something about Bair and Uair working good in tandem. I 100% agree. The Uair actually makes it easier to hit some of the more oddball recoveries in the game, and the sweetspot is further away from M2 than the Bair's making it more safe sometimes.

 

[DelxDoom]

I'm not saying you should spam Disable or rely on it. I am saying that we should learn how to get more mileage out of it

 

[KAOSTAR]

Delxdoom-I think that vehicle is maxed out.

-Sh disable oos[possibly retreating]
-WD disable
-SB to disable combo[on and off stage]
-SB to disable
-Dtilt to disable
-fair to disable
-disable to disable
-SB to disable off stage
-disable during ledge attacks
-disable during a ledge roll up.

and its still ****tty.

Most of m2s combos are reactionary to DI so there isnt really a best combo. If you get a disable, go into tech chasing unless they are high enough to use s charged dsmash.

@Shadowball-the uair also has more knockback, the only drawback is that it sends them higher up and I guess its a bit awkward to hit with. But for the most part I like it more than bair. You can do some nice bair bair uair bair kinda combos when you ledge cancel

just for clarification, Im specifically talking about the reverse uair. so while facing the stage.

@gimpyfish-Lest do m2 boozer next time ur around.

 

[DelxDoom]

I'm not talking about setups, I'm talking about most damaging thing to do after a Disable... not just one move though

 

[KAOSTAR]

ah, I see. Well there isnt anything you could do out of disable that you couldnt already do in active combat, with the exception of charge a smash.

do whatever the situation calls for, whether it be a tech chase or charge a smash attack. I guess you could go for a set of djc aerials but u never really know how thats gonna go until it starts.

 

[DelxDoom]

Dair->dair for 30 damage and a tech chase opportunity? You won't hit dair that easily normally

 

[Taj278]

I always do grabs/DJC forward air from disable at low % because it is often not worth the risk to use big wind-up moves. At higher percentage (100%+) I still tend to just charge down smash and play for an edgeguard, but a down air to forward/up air at that percentage could potentially give me the same thing and more percentage.

The problem with down air to down air is that it is very dependent on opponent DI, character, and stage position. It will look nice if you're able to follow up with that tech chase though, but I'm still uncertain if it is worth the risk.

 

[SDC]

Dair->dair for 30 damage and a tech chase opportunity? You won't hit dair that easily normally

Dair. Is. Worthless. Don't use that move lol. Once in a while as a surprise spike, sure, fine. But to use on stage as a normal move........any player who has any experience whatsoever will just punish you when you use this. If you miss it, it's a free upsmash. even if you hit it, it doesn't even pop them up at low %s. Only use that move sparingly, rarely.

I don't want to sound condescending or anything, but this Mewtwo delusion has to stop. Yes, a good Mewtwo can beat a good Fox, but you have to understand that on paper, this is an impossible match-up. Sure, Mewtwo has a monster combo on Fox with up throw that pales in comparison to Fox's, but landing that is not only difficult, but it isn't necessarily guaranteed because of DI.

I've been waiting for somebody with more credentials then me to say this here. I've grown a bit tired of watching people get on the mewtwo boards spouting off baseless, untested, ridiculous ideas ("hey guys confusion might be good"), or gushing about how they won against some mediocre top-tier-character-player using some dumb tactic that never would have worked at a higher level (disable edgeguards lol). No offence, but people here seem to have this delusion that mewtwo might be good. He's not. In his game, the pokemon games, he's broken god tier, but in melee, he's one of the worst characters. I think it's time the mewtwo boards faced reality: Mewtwo sucks in melee, the only reason we use him is because he is our favorite character, and we love him so much we don't mind losing. I have recently come to terms with this fact, and I think the rest of the people here need to do so as well.

The point of these boards should not be to "find some secret hidden strat or tech", but rather to discuss ways that we can improve our abilities and strengths, minimize our weaknesses, increase our matchup knowledge, encourage each other, all to eventually improve our slim chances of winning more matches.

Mewtwo has no "hidden potential", he is a bad character. I will always use him, but I do so with the knowledge that I most likely will lose, I most likely will be destroyed, I most likely will lose close matches, but in the end it's all worth it because I'm using the character that I like.