Syracuse Fest Feb 10th, BEST practice

[Zhenkai]

I'm actually gonna skip out on comin' down this weekend and what not. Ya see, mom is goin' out of town till Wednesday and what not so it'd be just me and the stepdad, well, he doesn't really like being alone with no one to talk to or anything, so I'mma stay here and keep him company. Next weekend, or sometime after that, there's gonna be plans, there's gonna be travel, and then it's Melee time. It's just for me, family>friends. Hehe

 

[TheManaLord]

melee attendance will be late night, me and jeff are playing a bunch so i def think he plans on going but wont be there till like 11 maybe earlier. myself, i won't be there until 9 o' clock if i drive straight from work.

but i am so down for a tourny. we have recording equipment so we'll bring it.


edit: idk what chars i'm using its been toooo long

 

[1337-Zero]

Are we gonna use the new SBR stage list :D?

Do want Norfair + Port Town

EDIT: If Brawl doesn't run too late I'll bring entry fee for the Melee tournament.

 

[x13mako]

1. 1337-Zero this isn't midwest.
2. I can't come, apparently my sister wants me at her graduation party.

 

[Sharky]

lolfail.

same for the sbr list, sorry 1337 lol

on another note best bowser in syracuse woo!

 

[Gaia_x]

idk if i wanna use sbr ruleset or not. but im open for allowing port town and norfair to be used. as a trial and error type thing,

 

[da K.I.D.]

I back the sbr stage list 100%

anyone who doesnt is a punk and a hater.

 

[x13mako]

I'm not a punk.

 

[Tomato]

If I were a TO, I'd use this list.

Starter Stages

Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

Counterpick Stages

Castle Siege
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium I
Frigate Orpheon
Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise

Pretty much no Pictochat & Jungle Japes takes its place. I love taking them to Japes. One of my favorite stages.

 

[x13mako]

That's a pretty good list. I'm not big on Japes but it's not really horrible.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Cura, this is actually pretty funny. You seem to be in a perfect position to fully test this ruleset. I think you should run the next few smashfest with that stagelist and see if after one learns the stages there is anything bannable about them.

There was actually a dude out in the midwest who ran a tourney to test those stages. it was something like:

1st game Neutral:
Ps2

2nd game random CP:
Port town
rumble falls
norfair
distant planet
luigis mansion
pirate ship
Onett
green greens

http://www.youtube.com/user/MetalMusicMan04#p/u

 

[Tomato]

Lol that's intense. I love Onett & Yoshi's Island (Melee) Although I don't think very many people would think me legitimate if I wanted to use those stages.

 

[TheManaLord]

Tomato, if you want to play melee, I will go to whatever semi legit stage there is.

 

[Gaia_x]

I'll pass on the ****ty ruleset but maybe I'll make a few adjustments to my own

 

[1337-Zero]

Yay for ******ness!

Yoshi's Island Melee is aaaallll up in this ****

Aight, final tally. I'm bringing myself, O.M.R, FROST, r0chX, and FireBird979 (Banjo's somewhere else).

My mom'll wring my neck if I bring my brother's T.V. again, but if you have an extra T.V. I can bring the Wii and Brawl.

@Sharky: You're the best Bowser in Syracuse? Boozer dittos 1$

@Tomato: IS DEMILLE THE TOMATO GONNA SHOW THIS WEEK?

 

[Tomato]

Mana, I like Melee, but I have gotten so used to Brawl's physics that going back to Melee feels really weird. I do enjoy many of the Melee stages though. I play Luigi in Melee, although I never bothered learning any of the higher level of gaming techniques. But honestly, I'd much rather play on a stage like Yoshi's Island (Melee) or Onett than stages like Frigate Orpheon, Pictochat, Luigi's Mansion, Pokemon Stadium II, and other stages perceived to be more legitimate. Japes is my favorite though. Got to take them to Japes.

1337-0, Nah, I'm still on Long Island lol. In the coming months I'll be there no doubt. And yeah, Yoshi's Island (Melee) is good ****. I don't care if I can walk off the ledge. Spiking someone off of the upper blocks down the hole is probably one of the coolest things one can do in Smash.

 

[TheManaLord]

I'll be there around 9:30 CURA TEXT ME TODAY ADDRESS N STUFF THANK YOU =)

 

[BetaBahamut]

Mana its in the first post

 

[TheManaLord]

thanks! see you tonight beta i can't wait to play you

 

[Gaia_x]

its a date!!

 

[TheManaLord]

anyone want to melee mm me for a few whole dollars. dont worry im rusty. any matchups!

 

[1337-Zero]

Yoshi's Island (Melee) and Port Town: Aero Dive are the two most legal and fair stages in the history of Smash. All in agreement say "Okay!"

Spoiler

Okay!Okay!Okay!Okay!Okay!Okay!Okay!Okay!Okay!Okay!Okay!Okay!Okay!

 

[x13mako]

1337, I think it's better if you go now .

 

[da K.I.D.]

they put out a new, much more detailed ruleset, people should check it out.

 

[1337-Zero]

^Good read, but I really love how the two most debatable counterpicks were the one's I was winning on last night (except for Cura).

Also, for the record, I never died by falling through the pit on Yoshi's Melame Island.

 

[JamesG]

Stages like Port Down and Yoshi Melee flat out shouldn't be allowed in competitive play.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Stages like Port Down and Yoshi Melee flat out shouldn't be allowed in competitive play because my character is bad on them..

Thats what I read, idk about you guys...

 

[Gaia_x]

idk, ill get a review from everyone who hard played on those stages this fest. and get a proper response to determine rather or not it should be allowed.

 

[JamesG]

Nah it's not entirely about that. Lucario is bad on a whole ****load of stages that are already allowed in competitive play. On a stage like Port Down the stage hazards are far too random at time and can diminish any separation in skill level between players at times. One wrong movement can mean your entire stock, and more significantly, the entire match. It also interferes with the match between players in that they are spending a lot of time trying to dodge the hazards as opposed to actually playing and reading each other.


I'd probably rather play with items on high.

As far as Yoshi Island there aren't too many threats like you would see on Port Town, but the stage layout is distorted enough (slanted pipes, ridiculously low ceiling, too clustered, etc.) to a point where I would say it just misses the cut for tourney standards. I don't have as detailed of an explanation for this stage here, because I have pretty much no experience on it. I will have to play on it more to know.

 

[x13mako]

Thats what I read, idk about you guys...

They shouldn't be allowed, and I main meta we don't know bad stages.

 

[da K.I.D.]

On a stage like Port Down the stage hazards are far too random at time and can diminish any separation in skill level between players at times.

Disagree.
The awkward stages dont diminish the skill needed to play, they only change the skillset needed to use the stage to the full effectiveness.
Also, the only reason you see the hazards as random is because you dont know the stage well enough to know when they are coming. Its similar to Pictochat, which is pretty much a universally accepted counterpick stage now.

One wrong movement can mean your entire stock, and more significantly, the entire match.

Kinda like DDD getting a grab on the second part of castle siege?
Or getting aethered into the water on Delfino by Ike?
Or getting wall infinited on PS1?
Or getting grabbed while the bomb is falling/while the laser is shooting on halberd?
Or getting thrown into a Pictochat hazzard?

Point is, the game is very very precise and there are a multitude of 'caught at the wrong place at the wrong time' situations that can end your stock/game/match every early, but thats not really good enough criteria to ban a stage.

It also interferes with the match between players in that they are spending a lot of time trying to dodge the hazards as opposed to actually playing and reading each other.

I feel that too comes from inexperience. Because like pictochat, people who dont know the stage are reduced to fighting the stage and the hazzards, but people who do, are in a way lifted to a higher skill echelon, because they have to elevate their game to creatively and skillful adapt to and properly use the changing envioronment to their advantage.

As far as Yoshi Island there aren't too many threats like you would see on Port Town, but the stage layout is distorted enough (slanted pipes, ridiculously low ceiling, too clustered, etc.) to a point where I would say it just misses the cut for tourney standards. I don't have as detailed of an explanation for this stage here, because I have pretty much no experience on it. I will have to play on it more to know.

A unique layout and stage structure sounds like the makings of a strong counterpick, not an unusable stage.

as a matter of fact, im about to go practice on those 2 right now...

 

[JamesG]

Goggles you're too accepting at times. These stages haven't been around in tourneys for a reason. I understand that one wrong move can screw up your match on other stages as well, but at least it is in the hands of the player in most of the examples you mentioned. For example, if a guy makes a wrong move to get grabbed by Dedede and gets chain grabbed on Castle Seige, it was the result of a player vs player confrontation. The same can apply in Pictochat, in that one player can punish another player if they put themselves in a wrong position (dtilt against a wall or thrown into flames or spikes) In port town the player vs. player confrontation is at many times a non-factor when dealing with the hazards. Some car drives by and takes your stock, even in areas where you are seemingly safe or far away from the opponent. There was one portion of the match I recall where both Matt and I were on platforms far away from each other, supposedly away from the hazards, and Matt, in a flash, loses his stock at like 0% which royally screwed him for the rest of the match.
There was also another part of the tourney where 13370 was completely stunned by getting his stock taken away, saying he thought that he was in a safe position. And 13370 has been practicing on that stage for a while now.

I'm in favor of using hazards to my advantage to punish my opponents bad decision or position (I have counterpicked Pictochat on several players) but that's not the point I'm trying to make with a stage like Port Town. As I said before, on several occasions that player vs player confrontation is a non-factor when dealing with the hazards on this particular stage. Of course there are other legal stages where this also applies, but nowhere close to the same degree in that their hazards are far less threatening or far more avoidable.

Wanting Port Town legal is no different than wanting Mario Kart Race Track legal in my eyes.

 

[1337-Zero]

Before I start, I'd like to note that all I'm about to say is simply on the basis of proper stage analysis. I have no intention of getting into an argument with anyone over my opinion. Any arguments over what I'm about to post should be indirectly stated, not told to me. I have don't have the final say in determining stage legality, so any arguments voiced directly at me are pointless.

My full argument for Port Town: Aero Dive's legality as a counterpick:
(Reminder, IMO if issues that are addressed are deemed as strategically important or have very little influence on competitive play, I deem them meaningless)

Reasons PT:AD works as a counterpick:
1. The stage is constantly changing (like PS1, a neutral) at a predictable pace.
2. The hazards are both predictable and avoidable (trust me, I've read the stage analysis, EVERY PART of the stage has a way to avoid hazards)
3. There are no ledges most of the time (Discourages edge camping and planking. This should be kept in mind for counterpicking characters or players (looking at you Sharky).
4. The blastzones vary in both width and length (Rewards knowledge of the stage itself)

Port Town is an agreeable stage as a counterpick. Like most counterpicks, knowledge of the stage itself can either make or break you (this is true for all stages, including neutrals). All three of the points I've mentioned are viable strategies for any player. They can all be learned, analyzed, and used to the advantage of the player who picked it (If the opponent has taken the time to learn the stage, the opponent may use these to his advantage as well).

Scenario 1: Yoshi's Island (Brawl), a neutral
Player1: Has knowledge of all neutrals
Player2: Knows FD like the back of his hand, but the rest he's clueless

Yoshi's Island has a very unique "hazard" that saves the player rather than hurting him. The support ghost (known around here as "Percival the Prejudiced", or "Percy" for short) always pops up in the exact same area on the left side, and the exact same area on the right side. P1, the seasoned player that he is, knows Percy very well. P2, on the other hand, does not and lo and behold, P1 smashes P2 off the stage. P2 attempts to recover, narrowly misses the ledge, then hugs the stage wall all the way down.
In the same situation, the roles are reversed. P2 smashes P1 off the stage. P1 attempts to recover, narrowly misses the ledge, then glides slowly in his helpless state towards the predictable point of Percy's arrival. Percy saves P1's precious stock just in time.

I'll admit, this situation is a bit idealized, but it has nonetheless happened several times, and players who don't know the stage often lose this benefit (As a matter of fact, the cars are easier to predict than Percy's arrival is). The same is true for the cars on Port Town. Knowing which parts of the stage cars would appear, where to be to dodge them, and which stages of transformation were completely safe was intensely useful in my match with JamesG (even though I was killed by the cars, not James, my stage knowledge got me the win anyway as I knew the patterns of the cars and never had to worry about them).

EXTREMELY IMPORTANT FINAL NOTE
A few of the stages of transformation make the cars noticeable before they run through, while the other stages are random. If anyone saw me play last night during the stages of transformation where the cars weren't predictable, I hung around the far edges of the stage (the safe spots) and camped a bit. This momentarily change in my gameplay was by choice, just as some characters "time out" certain Delfino transformations. This knowledge of the game made my win MUCH easier to obtain.

There was also another part of the tourney where 13370 was completely stunned by getting his stock taken away, saying he thought that he was in a safe position. And 13370 has been practicing on that stage for a while now.

Wanting Port Town legal is no different than wanting Mario Kart Race Track legal in my eyes.

Over the week I mentioned I practiced on Port Town: Aero Dive, I practiced a combined total of 33 MINUTES, read up on the stage's hazards, and fully understood everything I would need to do to make the stage work in my favor. Just 33 minutes guys, IMO this stage is not very complicated at all.

"Having trouble trumping your opponent's stage picks? Can't find a counterpick that works for you? Try Port Town: Aero Dive. Better CP results in just 33 minutes or your money back"

Also, I had an extremely good feeling that the cars were going to hit me when they did. However, I stood there anyway as I wanted to test the spot for later. As a rule of thumb about me, never judge what I'm thinking based on what I'm saying. If everyone did that, we'd assume Cura's head was empty while he's playing 'cuz he doesn't say a thing and that's likely not the case. I was completely ready for the cars to hit me, it was the force that I wasn't prepared for (I have no doubt, though, that if I'd put in 7 extra minutes of practice I wouldn't have died because of it).

___________________________________________________________________

My full argument on Yoshi's Island (Melee) as a counterpick

This one will be much shorter, as I'm quite sure several smashers (Cura, Sharky, Frost) already find my argument viable.

Reasons Yoshi's Island (M) works as a counterpick
1. The stage heavily rewards proper DI and Techs
2. The primary hazards (The blocks) can be removed for short periods by either player and have strategic value when both absent and present (As in point #1)
3. Grab releases are both hindered and helped (Yoshi gets a walkoff infinite on Ness on the hill, and certain characters must not pummel and throw immediately on the pipe or the grab is instantly broken)
4. Advanced knowledge of the stage can always prevent death by certain moves (EX:Olimar's U-throw with Purple pikmin always fails if used while standing on top of blocks)

Misconception: The ceiling is not low. In fact, it's deceptively high.
I believe why JG is arguing this is because of my B-throw kills. For the record, James died off the SIDE every time I killed him with B-throw, NOT the top.

Scenario #2: Yoshi's Island (M)
13370: Olimar
Sharky: Olimar

During heated combat, Sharky grabs my olimar and U-throws him underneath the blocks. I react to this by teching the block. Sharky, however, follows up on this by U-smashing me while I was still in the Tech animation.
After this, Sharky says, "Wow, that time the tech worked against you"

The reason I mention this is because Teching every move doesn't bring salvation on this stage. Yoshi's Island (M) encourages SKILLFUL techs, not random/reaction ones. Stages that give mediocre players extreme random advantages are on grounds for ban, not stages that reward people who know precisely when and when not to apply advanced techniques. If I had bounced off the block then tech rolled the ground afterwards I would have avoided the U-smash.

If people can say "Don't get grabbed" is a completely legitimate playstyle (And I believe it is, I encourage the use of all grab releases/CGs if the victim screws up and falls into them), then "Don't fail the tech" doesn't seem too farfetched as a strategy either.

______________________________________________________________________


(This note has been removed upon reading previous statments)

These are my true thoughts about these stages. As much as I was joking around last night about them being gay win-tickets for me, I truly believe they are viable counterpicks (And as Cura proved, knowledge of the stage isn't all you need. He solidly beat me even though I was more experienced with the stage).

 

[JamesG]

Nah isn't the lowest in the world but it's not "deceptively high" either. Sharky killed me with Oli upsmash at like 85% with prepared DI.

That one isn't as bad as Port Town though. I ever really argued much against that stage but if somebody asked me if I wanted it legal or banned, I would obviously say banned.

I like just neutral stages though so its not all up to me. I'm a Lucario for gods sake.

Edit: I'm going all Dedede next tournament on players that main characters that can be chaingrabbed. Non chain-grabbable characters will still face my Lucario. It will be an interesting experiment.

 

[Sharky]

(looking at you Sharky). meeeeeeeeeeeeeh!

___________________________________________________________________

My full argument on Yoshi's Island (Melee) as a counterpick

This one will be much shorter, as I'm quite sure several smashers (Cura, Sharky, Frost) already find my argument viable.

Reasons Yoshi's Island (M) works as a counterpick
1. The stage heavily rewards proper DI and Techs
2. The primary hazards (The blocks) can be removed for short periods by either player and have strategic value when both absent and present (As in point #1)
3. Grab releases are both hindered and helped (Yoshi gets a walkoff infinite on Ness on the hill, and certain characters must not pummel and throw immediately on the pipe or the grab is instantly broken)
4. Advanced knowledge of the stage can always prevent death by certain moves (EX:Olimar's U-throw with Purple pikmin always fails if used while standing on top of blocks)

Misconception: The ceiling is not low. In fact, it's deceptively high. this is actually true, it's definitely higher than green greens, at least.
I believe why JG is arguing this is because of my B-throw kills. For the record, James died off the SIDE every time I killed him with B-throw, NOT the top.

Scenario #2: Yoshi's Island (M)
13370: Olimar
Sharky: Olimar

During heated combat, Sharky grabs my olimar and U-throws him underneath the blocks. I react to this by teching the block. Sharky, however, follows up on this by U-smashing me while I was still in the Tech animation.
After this, Sharky says, "Wow, that time the tech worked against you"actually during the throw I kind of guessed that you were going to tech, and started thinking of ways to capitalize it. This is a really good example. You would have been better rewarded by teching the ground off of the bounce and rolling away

The reason I mention this is because Teching every move doesn't bring salvation on this stage. Yoshi's Island (M) encourages SKILLFUL techs, not random/reaction ones. Stages that give mediocre players extreme random advantages are on grounds for ban, not stages that reward people who know precisely when and when not to apply advanced techniques. If I had bounced off the block then tech rolled the ground afterwards I would have avoided the U-smash.oh, you did mention that, good for you lol

If people can say "Don't get grabbed" is a completely legitimate playstyle (And I believe it is, I encourage the use of all grab releases/CGs if the victim screws up and falls into them), this is why cura wants to switch to MK XDthen "Don't fail the tech" doesn't seem too farfetched as a strategy either.

______________________________________________________________________


(This note has been removed upon reading previous statments)

These are my true thoughts about these stages. As much as I was joking around last night about them being gay win-tickets for me, I truly believe they are viable counterpicks (And as Cura proved, knowledge of the stage isn't all you need. He solidly beat me even though I was more experienced with the stage). sad but true =/

my notes in this color =D

 

[1337-Zero]

@JamesG: If that was a Purple U-smash, it might've killed you on Battlefield TBH. I don't know enough about Oli, so Sharky if you could let us know what color it was (if you remember) that would be very helpful.

From what I saw last night, YI (M)'s blastzone is about an entire stageheight (The highest point of view when the camera is zoomed out) higher than the normal view of the stage. The side blastzone is almost immediately after leaving view (like two Yoshi or three Ness lengths) The "deceptive" part is a matter of opinion. It's def. about 4x higher than I (and from what I heard last night, a lot of people) thought it was, so I found it deceptive. Sorry about that, I kinda muddled over the wording I should've used there:embarrass

Thanks JG and Sharky for your input. And Sharky, lol at your Cyanfail on your last note XD

 

[Sharky]

it was in fact a purple, to clarify. I remember him being pretty pissed about it too lol. Fear the fat@ss.

I messed up another color tag? dangit

 

[1337-Zero]

it was in fact a purple, to clarify. I remember him being pretty pissed about it too lol. Fear the fat@ss.

I messed up another color tag? dangit

Good, then this definitely shows the kill might have happened again under several different circumstances.

Also, an odd random note about Port Town I forgot. The platforms are almost never safe spots. Cars generally reach over the platforms, that's why you go to the farthest edge of the stage (true for most transformations)

 

[da K.I.D.]

Edit: I'm going all Dedede next tournament on players that main characters that can be chaingrabbed. Non chain-grabbable characters will still face my Lucario. It will be an interesting experiment.

Been there, done it, doesnt work. By all means tho, feel free.

it was in fact a purple, to clarify. I remember him being pretty pissed about it too lol. Fear the fat@ss.

I messed up another color tag? dangit

purple pikmin are so broken. lol

 

[Tomato]

I'd much rather play on Yoshi's Island Melee than PTAD. Having a standard A move hitting you back a foot in front of a car that sends you flying off the stage isn't really my favorite thing in the world. PTAD involves adapting to the stage to much for my liking. I mean, that's all moving stages, but the other legal ones don't punish you nearly as much, and thus make for a better game.

And yeah, Norfair is just ridiculous. If the stage didn't move at all and the lava stood still it'd be a cool stage, but there's just too much crap going on to make for a legitimate battle.