Syracuse Fest Feb 10th, BEST practice

[Gaia_x]

Ups and downs on both stages. It was interested. Leet-0 counter picked me to port town. And i won pretty solidly. And then i counter picked james there when i was using jpuff. And it came down to last hit. and i would have won that match but i got hit by a car on a fresh stock. which actually kills jpuff cause shes so light. So the stage worked in my favor and than didnt work in my favor. so i am unsure how i feel about. As well. James went to game 3 with sharky, and to game 5 with leet-0 only because of those 2 counter picks. So im not sure what to think.

 

[x13mako]

The more stages we add the less use our ban is. And they already don't do sh*t vs MK.

 

[1337-Zero]

The more stages we add the less use our ban is. And they already don't do sh*t vs MK.

IMO not true, the more stages we have the more important our ban is. You can better identify your own faults when you have several stages you dislike, then learn to decide which ones you hate more than others.

After playing true matches on both stages, I've come to find I don't really like/dislike either of them. However, I think they are both legitimate stages worthy of a CP.

@Tomato: Check my argument on page 53. I can write up one of those for Norfair too, and I definitely will once we finish ruling on these stages.

 

[x13mako]

IMO not true, the more stages we have the more important our ban is. You can better identify your own faults when you have several stages you dislike, then learn to decide which ones you hate more than others.

After playing true matches on both stages, I've come to find I don't really like/dislike either of them. However, I think they are both legitimate stages worthy of a CP.

It might become more important to know which stages we're worse on. In the end if you have 5 stages and one ban vs a character who can play well on 2 and better on all 3. You're done for.

 

[da K.I.D.]

If your basing you stage legality decisions entirely upon how it affects our matchups with metaknight, why dont you just ban the character?

sounds like if we did that, youd have much less issues with said stages.

 

[x13mako]

I just think a conservative amount of stages is better for everyone at these weekly fests.

EDIT: Actually, I would probably be hurt way more with a conservative stage list then maybe everyone who goes to these (Idk is Moss, Shiv, or Blue Peachy ever go to these).

 

[da K.I.D.]

The way me (and I think cura as well) sees it is thatif your going to have a weekly smash fest and a small entree tourney for it, its better to test all the stages at those times because

1. You can find out any possible brokenness with the stage, so that you dont end up using unfit stages in the actual large tourneys.

2. If you do die to something bad-stage-related, you wont feel as bad since youll only be out 1-3 dollars, in stead of 5-10 dollars and potentially your spot on the PR. I assume this is why cura feels confident going jpuff and Dk and random characters like that at these events

lastly, I doubt that any of the notable NYS metaknights will be at these, so unless cura feels like gaying you guys, you dont even have anything to worry about.

 

[x13mako]

Okay, 1337-Zero, if you want to take me to port town, feel free.

 

[DahremRuhar]

Oops never mind. Heh.... heh... heh.

 

[JamesG]

I will never support these stages. I don't wanna leave a tournament saying I won on Final Destination and Battlefield, and lost on Port Down Aero Drive, Mario Kart Super Circuit and Skyworld.

Edit:

And Goggles, I'm a smart enough player to win with characters that aren't my main. I'm actually looking into picking up Dedede whereas you think Dedede is your golden ticket to beating me, which never is the case.

 

[JamesG]

Ups and downs on both stages. It was interested. Leet-0 counter picked me to port town. And i won pretty solidly. And then i counter picked james there when i was using jpuff. And it came down to last hit. and i would have won that match but i got hit by a car on a fresh stock. which actually kills jpuff cause shes so light. So the stage worked in my favor and than didnt work in my favor. so i am unsure how i feel about. As well. James went to game 3 with sharky, and to game 5 with leet-0 only because of those 2 counter picks. So im not sure what to think.

You weren't guaranteed to win the match even with that crucial stock taken away. Had that stock not been taken I could've changed my play-style or tactics completely to assist me in winning the match. I also have aura. Your Kirby took my first stock with 13% damage on it and I still won that match so you never know what could've happened .

 

[da K.I.D.]

I will never support these stages. I don't wanna leave a tournament saying I won on Final Destination and Battlefield, and lost on Port Down Aero Drive, Mario Kart Super Circuit and Skyworld.

But what if you left a tournament saying
I lost on smash ville and Ps1 but I won the tourney because I won on Port town, Ps2, and Melee Island. due to practicing on the stages
?

And Goggles, I'm a smart enough player to win with characters that aren't my main. I'm actually looking into picking up Dedede whereas you think Dedede is your golden ticket to beating me, which never is the case.

My comment had nothing to do with you really. I was refering to when I actually played DDD semi seriously. and I would try to play him against Dr.g back in the day. I didnt know you were actually trying to pick him up as opposed to just using him in specific matchups. So if youre going to actually pick him up, than my advice doesnt even apply to you.

 

[JamesG]

^^ My B.

And the stage thing was a joke. haha

 

[1337-Zero]

You weren't guaranteed to win the match even with that crucial stock taken away. Had that stock not been taken I could've changed my play-style or tactics completely to assist me in winning the match. I also have aura. Your Kirby took my first stock with 13% damage on it and I still won that match so you never know what could've happened .

Exactly. If the stage prevented you from changing your tactics, then I believe it would have warranted a ban. However, since according to you you had that option available, the stage did not interfere with your overall style of play and was therefore laissez faire.

Also, I hate to get all biased with this, but look at this scenario involving two Grand Finalists.

P1: Wins on Yoshi's Island (Brawl) and Pokemon Stadium
P2: Wins on Port Town: Aero Dive, Norfair, and Lylat Cruise

P1's response: Harrumph, I might have lost, but at least I kept my matches clean.
P2's response: W00T I just made $500!!!!

Regardless of whether or not we like/dislike these stages, several tournaments are going to pick up on them since the BBR has officially ruled on them. This isn't completely my own opinion, I'm taking into account their research as well as my own (As a matter of fact, today I found a safe zone that I don't believe was listed in the original topic). And trust me, I don't care how anyone feels about the stages, everyone would rather be P2.

EDIT: Yup, That safe spot isn't listed. Hooray for my successful research.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Yo, so this kid leet -0, I am loving the way he is breaking this down, and i agree with him fully.

 

[x13mako]

If I'm given bad stages I'll use 'em too the fullest. I just think a conservative list would be better for tourneys. But I guess it's not my tourney. I just prefer stages that have ledges for the most of the time.

 

[JamesG]

I can change my playstyle and tactics on any stage though. Does that make every stage in the game legal?

 

[da K.I.D.]

you cant change your playstle on hyrule, because when you play to win on hyrule the only playstyle available to you is get the lead and circle camp.

You are interpreting his phrase incorrectly

 

[Tomato]

One reason I like conservative stage lists is because it's likely to prevent whining/johning.

Like in 1337's aforementioned scenario, player 1 would be like 'WTF, I wouldn't have lost to this guy if we played on less hazardous stages.' And then arguing ensues, and probably a lot of stupid **** gets thrown around. Unless the vast majority of people at the tournament agree upon the stages, I wouldn't bother.

Perhaps one idea would be not to have a set list of counterpicks, but hold votes with all the players before asking them whether they'd want some of the more controversial stages legalized, like Port Town, Yoshi's Island (Melee), and others. Whichever side gets more votes for each stage determines whether it's legal in the tournament or not. Since every tourney is going to have a different cast of people, it makes sense to cater the event towards the people who actually showed up. The hope of being able to go and affect the tournament would probably increase attendance at the events, since some people would look at a liberal stage list and go nowhere near the tourney.

So yeah, Direct Democracy for the win with determining controversial counterpicks. Legalizing it based on the people present would probably be the best idea, instead of pre-determining it beforehand. This way in case a change is made, it won't be as uproarious. Since some may be like 'What the hell, this stage was/wasn't legal when I signed up!' kind of thing. Leaving it up to the people present is the best choice in my opinion.

But I've never been to a 'real' tournament so I don't know how it'd pan out. I mean, I can't imagine it being too difficult to hold a vote with such a small group of people.

 

[da K.I.D.]

adding to my last comment.


when it comes to something like port town, you can switch it up between stay in the middle of the stage so as to make sure that I dont go offstage so that I dont have to recover without ledges. or you can just plain camp and avoid getting hit and than try to score low percent kills by forcing your opponent into the cars. Or you can just camp the sides of the stage and try to put your opponent into a situation where he has to recover without any ledges.

those are all differnt ways you can adapt and work with the stage that are all, for the most part equally effective.

thats what he means by changing style and tactics.

all im asking is for everyone involved to do what leet did, and just approach each stage with an open mind, learn how the things work and decide from there whether it really is degenerate or if it adds to the competition. and to not jump to conclusions without having all the facts.

 

[1337-Zero]

you cant change your playstle on hyrule, because when you play to win on hyrule the only playstyle available to you is get the lead and circle camp.

You are interpreting his phrase incorrectly

^This is exactly what I meant. I suppose I should have said "renders all playstyles meaningless."

To clarify, if the stage forces options on you that prevent you from playing in a strategic and at least minutely effective manner, then it warrants a ban (this is not the only reason to ban, I'm simply naming one). JamesG said that he could have altered his playstyle in a way that would have earned him the win without the interference of the cars, so I'm inclined to believe that whether or not the cars were present, either player could have won (I myself proved this by dying due to cars, then winning the match anyway in a tournament situation). In summation, the primary hazard had nothing to do with the result of the match.

@Tomato: I was about to flat-out disagree with the vote idea, but then I remembered how these stages got on the list in the first place XD

My only concern about a vote is there's currently a lot of bias about the two stages.

 

[JamesG]

You guys still have no definition for broken. What makes a stage that is currently banned to broken for competitive play yet a stage like Port Town legal. Until there is detailed clarification on this distinction then I will categorize Port Town along with the other currently banned stages.

Let me think of a stage here. What about Distant Planet. Why would Distant Planet be banned and not Port Town. There are ledges on Distant Planet, you can stay in the middle of the stage. You can camp on the slant when the water isn't running. You can utilize the open space on the bottom to plank. There are several options present. If having different options is a way of determining if a stage is legal like Goggles claims, then nearly every stage in the game will be legal.

13370: It does force options that prevents me from playing strategic. If my opponent attempts to time me out with a 5% lead and there's 10 seconds left on the clock, and we're in the finish line area with a plethora of cars coming and separating us, I will have to spend my time avoiding cars rather than chasing down my opponent thus limiting my strategy of approaching and attempting to take a lead.

I'm done though. I'll be here next debate when I beat you two in tourney again and you try to legalize hammers, assist trophies and smashballs on high.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Personally, I want distant planet to be legal too.

I mean... I did beat sharky in an all DP money match...

And James, feel free to put a few dollars on out next match. Ask Acton, he knows I dont have a problem putting money on tourney sets.

 

[JamesG]

So you're saying you want to get knocked into loser's and buy me lunch for the day? I'm down.

With all seriousness though, I don't even like playing money matches. Acton asks me for them all the time and it just doesn't make my day any better for taking money from a player I know I will beat. Friendlies are fine for me. The only reason I do a money match is to either to get a chance to get a higher spot on the ranking, or get the attention of someone who wouldn't play me otherwise.

I don't even care about money. I would walk out of Matt's house without my tourney winnings every time if he didn't hand it to me before I left lol.

Of course my attitude on this would change the more money that is involved, haha, so I guess I should say that such a small amount of money doesn't phase me in any way.

And what's up with the money match comeback? Every time I back myself up and beat people I say I will beat they are like, "Yo put $5 on next match and see what happens." Then that same person loses again. It's like some sort of direct reaction for people who are insecure and fear losing to me again.

 

[x13mako]

I agree with JamesG, even though I doubt I'd win as much .

 

[da K.I.D.]

except that I beat you in money matches.

as a matter of fact, I might have to bring back the carnival game for the next tourney.

 

[JamesG]

I think you're stuck in the past Goggles. You continue to linger on Money Matches that you beat me in April-May when I was new to the game competitively as a way to cover up your most recent tourney loss as well as future losses to me.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I think you dwell too much on last stock last hit victories you got on characters of mine that I havent even played since april-may when you first came into the scene... lol

I dont try to cover up anything, I dont hide the fact that you beat me at all.

Its not like anyone around here thinks im honestly good to begin with anyway.

Just know, that Im in the vault, and the stuff im gonna do at the next tourney is going to blow people away.

I WILLL... SHOW YOU...



MY TRUE POWAHHHHHHH

 

[JamesG]

Look it ain't my problem that you didn't pick Sonic and lacked the confidence to use him against me in tourney. It's also not my problem if you chose to use characters that you claim to have not used in a while. It's just another excuse. Character, hit, and stock doesn't really change anything. In the end you got sent to losers and I moved on, plain and simple. If you used Ganon and I beat you I will still treat it as a 100% legit win on my part.

But if you really wanna get in detail. Yes Lucario ditto was last hit. Dedede match you barely got me to last stock and I won pretty comfortably. You CG'd me to maybe to like 30% or a bit higher then I got you off stage and eventually killed you with fsmash, if I recall correctly. But again this shouldn't matter.


And I don't dwell much on the past either aside from the most recent matches, which is reasonable if you ask me. But I am ready to beat you yet again and I am still waiting for this so-called "true power" of yours.

 

[1337-Zero]

13370: It does force options that prevents me from playing strategic. If my opponent attempts to time me out with a 5% lead and there's 10 seconds left on the clock, and we're in the finish line area with a plethora of cars coming and separating us, I will have to spend my time avoiding cars rather than chasing down my opponent thus limiting my strategy of approaching and attempting to take a lead.

Actually this isn't true. The cars are not random and there is always a safe spot to stand, so you can always plan ahead (you're expected to do this every match on any stage). If you take advantage of these options available to you, your opponent will be the one avoiding cars AND (since you knew the stage) Aura Spheres.

@Bold: I've mentioned before that limiting strategy is not grounds for ban. All stages do to a certain extent. I only care if it shuts it down and because of above stated it doesn't.

@Goggles: I'm STILL lingering on that MM where you ****ing timed me out XD

 

[Sharky]

actually goggles I'd like to get a rematch on dp at some point. Give me a little more time to practice up there. It doesn't help that I hate the sonic mu like the plague. >_>

 

[PikaPika!]

so you're saying you want to get knocked into loser's and buy me lunch for the day? I'm down.

With all seriousness though, i don't even like playing money matches. Acton asks me for them all the time and it just doesn't make my day any better for taking money from a player i know i will beat. Friendlies are fine for me. The only reason i do a money match is to either to get a chance to get a higher spot on the ranking, or get the attention of someone who wouldn't play me otherwise.

I don't even care about money. I would walk out of matt's house without my tourney winnings every time if he didn't hand it to me before i left lol.

Of course my attitude on this would change the more money that is involved, haha, so i guess i should say that such a small amount of money doesn't phase me in any way.

And what's up with the money match comeback? Every time i back myself up and beat people i say i will beat they are like, "yo put $5 on next match and see what happens." then that same person loses again. It's like some sort of direct reaction for people who are insecure and fear losing to me again.

mm ?

 

[JamesG]

lol let's goo!

 

[da K.I.D.]

i just played a bunch of matches with san today on PS2, YI(M), PTAD, GGs, and DP and delfino.

I dont think any of those stages are broken after testing them due to the fact that the matches played out for the most part, the same as our matches on BF, SV Fd and the like, I won a few, he won more. We both got a couple janky kills on each other, but after playing more and learning the stages, those things happened even fewer and farther between

 

[Gaia_x]

money match me pika

 

[1337-Zero]

i just played a bunch of matches with san today on PS2, YI(M), PTAD, GGs, and DP and delfino.

I dont think any of those stages are broken after testing them due to the fact that the matches played out for the most part, the same as our matches on BF, SV Fd and the like, I won a few, he won more. We both got a couple janky kills on each other, but after playing more and learning the stages, those things happened even fewer and farther between

I greatly appreciate appreciate actual match research. Thanks Goggles! I'm really jealous that you get to play San though, I can't believe I never asked him for matches at APEX >_<

When's Rochester gonna do some more tournaments?

 

[x13mako]

I was about to ask San for a mm, but the raffle started up right when his other match ended.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Trying to get sheth and pyro to hold another tourney on the 11th. Also, im looking into a new venue.

 

[BetaBahamut]

That Rit lounge venue was perfect. it had a fridge, couches, that bigscreen tv and best of all no venue fee. awesome for a smaller event.

 

[Gaia_x]

That Rit lounge venue was my perfect. it had a fridge, couches, that bigscreen tv and best of all no venue fee. awesome for a smaller event.

Wow beta beats me a couple times and he thinks hes hot ****