Super Smash Bros. Infinite Project (Finally Finished!???)

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

So about Isaac, the feeling I get is that the character doesn’t need to have any sort of gimmick which I agree with to an extent. Traditionally, starter newcomers don’t get many gimmicks but, technically speaking, Isaac is our version of Villager and Inkling who both have notable mechanics and gimmicks (Pocket and Ink). What if Isaac gained additional star buffs simply for standing on different types of terrain?

 

[chocolatejr9]

So about Isaac, the feeling I get is that the character doesn’t need to have any sort of gimmick which I agree with to an extent. Traditionally, starter newcomers don’t get many gimmicks but, technically speaking, Isaac is our version of Villager and Inkling who both have notable mechanics and gimmicks (Pocket and Ink). What if Isaac gained additional star buffs simply for standing on different types of terrain?

Is that a thing in Golden Sun? If so, it might be hard to program...

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

So about Isaac, the feeling I get is that the character doesn’t need to have any sort of gimmick which I agree with to an extent. Traditionally, starter newcomers don’t get many gimmicks but, technically speaking, Isaac is our version of Villager and Inkling who both have notable mechanics and gimmicks (Pocket and Ink). What if Isaac gained additional star buffs simply for standing on different types of terrain?

I'm not well-versed in Golden Sun but I can see a mechanic like this being fun to work with. Similar things have already been done such as Olimar's Pikmin probability in Brawl and Steve's mining in Ultimate, so there's already precedent for this. I could see something like "Isaac becomes stronger the grassier the terrain is" or something along those lines. So playing on Guar Plain or Yoshi's Island Melee would make Isaac stronger, while playing on Final Destination or Shadow Moses Island makes him weaker. And there's also stages that have different terrain: he could be stronger on Dream Land's main platform, but weaker on its wooden platforms. Also, what if this went beyond stat boosts, but also buffed Isaac's specials or other Earth-based attacks? Giving a projectile more range, granting a powerful move super armor, etc.

Of course, like I said, I'm not familiar with Golden Sun so someone who is can probably make a mechanic like this fit better on Isaac, but that's my take on it.

 

[CheeseAnton]

Is that a thing in Golden Sun? If so, it might be hard to program...

Doesn't Steve Minecraft from Minecraft have a similar(ish) gimmick where the blocks he mine is dependent on where he's standing. It'd still need to be tuned to Issac, but it'd be relatively easier to make since they already have experience with it.

 

[Garteam]

1. Jessica
2. Creeper
3. Bokoblin

 

[PeridotGX]

1. Creeper (Minecraft)
2. Cranky Kong (Donkey Kong)
3. Futaba (Persona 5)

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

How do people feel about making Isaac a defensively-strong sword fighter as opposed to a power-output or midrange-balanced sword fighter.

Job 1:
I'm unfamiliar with Golden Sun, but would it matter which version of the character we use? I know that Isaac is an adult in the second game, but would that affect his gameplay?

We would use his appearance from the first two games.

Job 3:

That depends, are we including echo fighters in our newcomer total?

Echoes are included.

Yes. That affects his core skeleton and hitboxes because DD Isaac is quite a deal taller than OG Isaac, and he's just a major NPC in that game, not a party member. It's not like Ike where his proportions remain the same basically entirely and he's just got a different outfit.

As for my post on Job 1:

Isaac's core mechanics are his moves that spawn out of the ground, such as thorns and earthen pillars/ spires. He can spawn these at a variable distance from himself, and as they spawn out of the ground, they are not likely to clank with projectiles, which has a high risk/reward as an option, since on one hand you can kill through/stuff out zoning, but on the other if you're too slow you'll just die.

He can also set various djinn to apply certain elemental damage to these moves, which is loosely based on added psynergy and changing classes. Thanks to his psynergy hand, his grab range is quite above average, though to compensate his sword normals may be slightly laggy.

Job 2:

Assist Trophy: Jenna (Golden Sun)

Isaac's love interest and eventual wife is a new assist trophy. Her arsenal includes the pound and carry moves from the old assist trophy, though instead of move she performs Serpent Plume, which has similar knockback properties, while also dealing fire damage.

First off, I’m so sorry I didn’t include it. I missed it when I was counting up the submissions. Actually though, I tend to Include a job involving Golden Sun assist trophies so let’s save Jenna for then.

I kind of interested in his specials having unique properties based on which Djinn are equipped. That being said, I’m not sure how that would turn out mechanics wise. Let’s keep that idea on the back burner.

Job 1:

I think that, much like what ahemtoday has said, Isaac shouldn't be very gimmicky and instead should have a simpler moveset, as if he was made during the Brawl era. So no PP, level ups or Djinn gimmicks.

For statistics, he'd be around medium height, being somewhere between taller than Mario but shorter than Marth. On the ground, his movement speed would be pretty good and he'd be a middleweight, which is similar to his stats from Golden Sun. In the air though, he'd have average jump height and fall speed, with below average air speed, as his abilities on the ground are where he shines.

Then for his moveset, as a Venus adept, Isaac would focus more on using various Venus (Earth) Psynergy than swordfighting. Most of his grounded attacks would use these abilities, like Quake, Thorn, Punji, Gaia, etc. Some Psynergy do use sword attacks though, including Annihilation and Ragnarok. His grab uses would use Catch for extra reach, then his throws would use Utility Psynergies, like Move or Pound. In the air is when Isaac will use more basic sword attacks, though Helm/Skull Splitter would still be available as D-air.

I think that about covers the basics. I can be more specific about what I think his moves would be, but I'll cover that during the next section. Let me know if you'd prefer me to cover that now instead though.

So a bit more a Robin build as a magic-swordsman? Djinn seem like an integral part of the series. Perhaps we could regulate them as items? Like you can collect them and use them to summon various monsters and beings?

This thread looks like it's exactly my style. Can I be a developer partner?

Anyway, let's talk about Isaac's moveset.

This may seem odd, but I've noticed characters that have been heavily requested since Brawl - for instance, Ridley, King K. Rool, and Banjo & Kazooie - tend to have simpler movesets that wouldn't seem out-of-place in Brawl. I suppose maybe it's about giving fans of the character a moveset that matches what they would have expected from the character all those years ago. With that in mind, I'm not particularly interested in giving Isaac some kind of XP or Djinn gimmick. The most I would go for is about Sephiroth's level of complexity.

When I make a moveset, I like to outline the core elements of the character that I would wish to highlight. So let's do that. Keep in mind that I'm not that familiar with Golden Sun.

• Above all, Isaac is a Venus Adept. In other words, he has earth magic.
• Isaac gets Cure at a low level in his default class series. (At least, that's what the wiki tells me.) In the early game, he's your healer.
• In addition to typical earth magic, Isaac also gets utility Psynergy like Move, which are actually used in the field.
• Isaac is considered a "warrior-style Adept" by the wiki, in comparison to "mage-style Adepts".
• I'm not confident in this having not played the game, but if Golden Sun is like any other RPG, you're gonna be using earth magic way more than your sword.

Now, I can construct a moveset with these in mind. Or at least a mere outline of a moveset.

Isaac fits the general mold of a swordfighter, but he doesn't do that much actual swordfighting. Instead, most of his disjoints are actually Venus Psynergy. They're not projectiles, so he isn't a zoner, but they do give him a decently large range. As an earth mage, it follows that his ground game is better than his air game.

• Isaac's down-tilt is Quake, which causes a column of earth to come from the ground and bounce an opponent upward. It's good to start combos, but its hitbox is directly on the ground, so it won't really hit airborne opponents.
• Isaac's down-smash is Gaia, which cause a pillar of energy to erupt from the ground beneath him. This is a powerful move that covers all around you, but it leaves you quite vulnerable if you miss.
• Isaac's down-air is Spire. It's a stall-then-fall attack where Isaac creates a variety of stalactites... then charges downward with them, sword pointed down.
• Isaac's up-B is Growth. It creates a tall plant that has a hitbox while it's growing. For the few seconds it's on the field, it can be climbed like a ladder.
• Isaac's down-B is Cure. This move heals Isaac about 5%, but is somewhat risky to pull off due to its high start- and endlag.
• Isaac's final smash is Judgment, It's a cutscene final smash that recreates the animation for the original's Judgment summon,

I think these are all great ideas and probably let the direction we should go with Isaac. While I think giving Isaac an interesting kit to work with would make him a popular character, perhaps simpler is better. We would dive into his moveset and other features in the next section once we get the mechanics worked out.

Is that a thing in Golden Sun? If so, it might be hard to program...

No, not exactly but could be an unique and fun feature to have though beats some

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Cranky Kong
Jessica Albert
Aegis

 

[Paraster]

AT votes:

1. Creeper
2. Wii Balance Board
3. Futaba

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I had some extra free time and updated the OP's Newcomer Roster table. I hope you guys like it!

 

[SharkLord]

Alright, Isaac ideas.

Being a young Venus Adept, Isaac would be a grounded fighter who specializes in controlling the battlefield. His attacks would either go towards the earth or come from it. Aside from some unique quirks to a couple of his moves, Isaac is a mostly simple character

• Jab, tilts, and dash attack use his sword.
• Smashes use Psynergy
  • Forward smash is Ragnarok; Isaac creates a large energy blade around his sword and swings it down.
  • Up smash is Punji, a thrust of bamboo shoots.
  • Down smash is Nettle, a series of thorny vines around Isaac. Multi-hitting move
• Aerials are clunky due to Isaac being out of his element, but are strong and can deal heavy damage in the enemy isn't careful.
  • Forward aerial has Isaac stab his sword down in front of himself; Like Hero's down air, but in from instead of directly below.
  • Up aerial is an awkward upward strike with the hilt; The attack isn't towards the ground and it doesn't come from it, making it Isaac's worst move
  • Down aerial is a vine that deals low damage, but is quick and acts as a tether if it hits the ground, much like the Belmont's whip. Mainly used to get Isaac back on the ground.
• Grab uses Catch Psynergy and throws use various other Utility Psynergies.
• Neutral Special is Gaia, a surge of rocks from the ground. Charging it turns it into Mother Gaia, and charging it further leads to Grand Gaia.
• Side Special is Move; Similar to his Assist Trophy, but obviously toned down in size for balancing purposes.
• Up Special is Growth, causing vines to sprout out around Isaac. In the air, it creates a plant underneath Isaac instead, acting as recovery.
• Down Special is Quake, a quick burst that trips up the opponent. Can be charged to increase the radius and damage.
  • In the air, it becomes Spire, a large stalactite sent plummeting downwards. Similar to Mega Man's down aerial.
• Final Smash is Judgement, a cinematic attack based on the original animation.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Alright, Isaac ideas.

Being a young Venus Adept, Isaac would be a grounded fighter who specializes in controlling the battlefield. His attacks would either go towards the earth or come from it. Aside from some unique quirks to a couple of his moves, Isaac is a mostly simple character

• Jab, tilts, and dash attack use his sword.
• Smashes use Psynergy
  • Forward smash is Ragnarok; Isaac creates a large energy blade around his sword and swings it down.
  • Up smash is Punji, a thrust of bamboo shoots.
  • Down smash is Nettle, a series of thorny vines around Isaac. Multi-hitting move
• Aerials are clunky due to Isaac being out of his element, but are strong and can deal heavy damage in the enemy isn't careful.
  • Forward aerial has Isaac stab his sword down in front of himself; Like Hero's down air, but in from instead of directly below.
  • Up aerial is an awkward upward strike with the hilt; The attack isn't towards the ground and it doesn't come from it, making it Isaac's worst move
  • Down aerial is a vine that deals low damage, but is quick and acts as a tether if it hits the ground, much like the Belmont's whip. Mainly used to get Isaac back on the ground.
• Grab uses Catch Psynergy and throws use various other Utility Psynergies.
• Neutral Special is Gaia, a surge of rocks from the ground. Charging it turns it into Mother Gaia, and charging it further leads to Grand Gaia.
• Side Special is Move; Similar to his Assist Trophy, but obviously toned down in size for balancing purposes.
• Up Special is Growth, causing vines to sprout out around Isaac. In the air, it creates a plant underneath Isaac instead, acting as recovery.
• Down Special is Quake, a quick burst that trips up the opponent. Can be charged to increase the radius and damage.
  • In the air, it becomes Spire, a large stalactite sent plummeting downwards. Similar to Mega Man's down aerial.
• Final Smash is Judgement, a cinematic attack based on the original animation.

All great ideas. By grounded, though, do you mean like “he’s a grounded fighter with no strengths or weaknesses” or that “he excels at his grounded attacks but his aerial moves are weak.”

 

[PeridotGX]

here's a question: what if Issac (for example) gets added to Smash Ultimate? Do we ignore it, or remove him and re-roll his slot?

 

[SharkLord]

All great ideas. By grounded, though, do you mean like “he’s a grounded fighter with no strengths or weaknesses” or that “he excels at his grounded attacks but his aerial moves are weak.”

He does better on the ground; That's what Venus Adepts are about, after all.

 

[cashregister9]

Is AT Voting Still open Sorry if it isn't

Creeper
Futaba
Eggplant Wizard

 

[AlRex]

If it's not too late, I vote
1) Prisoner of War (Metal Slug)
2) Cranky Kong (Donkey Kong)
3) Mad Scienstein

The odd history swayed me slightly from Eggplant Wizard towards Mad Scienstein, as obscure as he is.

 

[Commander_Alph]

Might as well vote too~

1. Wii Balance Board
2. Big The Cat
3. Jessica Albert

I almost want to vote my own AT concept because I'm too ambitious

 

[WarioJim]

So a bit more a Robin build as a magic-swordsman? Djinn seem like an integral part of the series. Perhaps we could regulate them as items? Like you can collect them and use them to summon various monsters and beings?

For the first point; you could say that, but more well rounded, alongside bigger focus on ground game.

As for the Djinn, I should specify: No Djinn as a character gimmick, so no swapping Djinn and standby modes or stuff like that. As items or otherwise, I think it's fair, and Isaac can still use moves given to him by Djinn as well, for instance F-tilt could be Flint or Sap, or one of his specials could be Vine?

The last thing I'll say is that a simple playstyle can still be interesting. And when I say no gimmicks, I mean more not having a playstyle that revolves around them, so there can still be an unusual move or two. For example, Venus Adepts have access to some interesting status moves, like Demon Night or Curse. You could also have a gameplan of keeping enemies on the ground by using special moves, where you can follow up with your best attacks.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Assist Trophy Voting is Closed. I will be counting the votes.

For the first point; you could say that, but more well rounded, alongside bigger focus on ground game.

As for the Djinn, I should specify: No Djinn as a character gimmick, so no swapping Djinn and standby modes or stuff like that. As items or otherwise, I think it's fair, and Isaac can still use moves given to him by Djinn as well, for instance F-tilt could be Flint or Sap, or one of his specials could be Vine?

The last thing I'll say is that a simple playstyle can still be interesting. And when I say no gimmicks, I mean more not having a playstyle that revolves around them, so there can still be an unusual move or two. For example, Venus Adepts have access to some interesting status moves, like Demon Night or Curse. You could also have a gameplan of keeping enemies on the ground by using special moves, where you can follow up with your best attacks.

Im also partially to keep things simple with Isaac. While I think it might be interesting to see his attacks gain a buff (his earth attacks do more damage on ground and metal surfaces while his nature based attacks deal more damage in water and plant/grass surfaces). I’m able to forgo that so we can have a simple play style.

So what I’ve been reading:

• No gimmicks (character skill)
• defensively strong magic swordfighter

-strong on the ground, weak in the air

Anything else I’ll be combined the ideas presented her into a gameplay proposal during this week.

 

[RouffWestie]

1. Creeper
2. Eggplant Wizard
3. The Medic

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Ok, here are the final tallies! Feel free to recount them to make sure we get an accurate count but I do think we have a clear winner! Please note that first, second, and third places will be made in Assist Trophies

1. Creeper from Minecraft @Smashing Ramen 12
2. Futaba from Persona 5 Perkilator 8
3. Balance Board from Wii Fit @smashing Master 7
2. Big the Cat from Sonic the Hedgehog evanwoo10 7
4. Cranky Kong from Donkey Kong Speed Weed 6
5. Jessica Albert from Dragon Quest Garteam 5
6. Bokoblin from The Legend of Zelda @Janx_uwu 4
7. The Medic from Team Fortress 2 C chocolatejr9 3
7. Egg Wizard from Kid Icarus cashregister9 3
8. Aegis from Persona 3 CheeseAnton 2
9. Prisoner of War from Metal Slug Commander_Alph 2
10. Buzz Bomber from Sonic the Hedgehog @Otoad64 1
11. Mad Scientist from Kaeru no Tame ni Kane wa Naru MamaLuigi123456 1[/B]

So, we have a tie for third place and, while probably normally I would request a tie-breaker, seeing as how it’s third place, I am willing to be lenient for our first round of Assist Trophy voting and to make both Big the Cat and Balance Board onto Assist Trophies! Futaba and Creeper will also be making it in as first and second place. With that, Job #2 is finished so let’s focus on Isaac for a while!

 

[Kalaam]

I personnaly am in favor of a gimmick mechanic with the djinns.
If it's allowed to go bonkers on it, here is my version of Isaac:

General Gameplay:
-Mid range area control to rack up % but needs to get close to deliver a killing bow.
-Somewhat high micro-management of the gimmick ressource: djinns.
- Stronger on the ground, but has a pretty solid recovery (will come to it)
-Possible change of some specials/other attacks depending on what djinns are equipped. Having 2 djinns set increases the range and charging speed for the specials. If no djinn is set, he'll default to the weakest version of his venus attacks. If too complicated, just resort to Venus attack (except when specified otherwise)
Special UI displaying Djinn status:

Specials:
Neutral Special: Uses the selected Djinn (2 per element, 8 total with different effects listed below)

Venus: Flint: A heavy knockback attack, one of Isaac's strongest killmove. Medium recovery time, no use outside of the attack. It comes out faster when isaac is on the ground.
Ground: Buries opponent close to Isaac to create an opening. The range is rather short and there is a delay before the gravity orbs comes down, it can be shielded or dodged. If used in the air, it will spike.

Mars: Forge: increases Isaac's physical damage (but not knockback) by 25% for 10 seconds, in team versus, affects his nearby allies as well.
Flash: Reduces the damage and knockdown of the next attack taken by 90%, the shield lasts 5 seconds but comes out instantly. Long recovery.

Jupiter: Kite: The next used special will be doubled. Replaying instantly without recovery frames. Some can be triggered midway through. Long recovery.
Luff: Seal's all the opponent's specials for 5 seconds, expect recoveries. Long recovery, midrange projectile, the djinn rushes forward, if it touches, it will take a short animation to seal the specials, during which the opponent can still use them. Long recovery

Mercury: Sleet: Short range projectile that reduces the damages inflicted by the affected targets by 25% for 10 seconds. The projectile is a fluid affected by gravity, similar in visual to Inkling's ink.
Eddy: Fasten the recovery of all other djinns currently in recovery, longest cooldown by far.

Side Special: The function stays relatively the same, but could change depending on what djinn is currently set on Isaac.

Venus: Quake, a short stone "wave" on the ground. Does not work midair, unless there is ground directly below Isaac. It'll be disjointed and the height will be unchanged. Medium damage, but strong vertical knockback.
Mars: Flare, a spray of fire forward. High damage but weak knockback.
Jupiter: Ray a longest lasting hitbox of electricity. Almost no knockback, but it does keep the targets in place thanks to the multihit. Giving a change to dash attack or grab.
Mercury: Frost, an icy wave on the ground. It shatters once it reaches its max range, doing a second, weaker, hit. All of the same range. Just different properties. Chargeable, increases the range.

UP Special: Vary strongly depending on the current djinns. If simplified, go with the Jupiter version.

Venus: Rockfall. Isaac steps on a large boulder materialising under his feet and use it a step ladder for a small jump. Upgraded version has him jump twice. Boulder falls and damages those under it. This is is weakest recovery, but is the best for ledge guard, as it can spike opponents recovering low.
Mars: Planet Diver/Planetary: Similar to Incineroar UpB, planterary causes a large explosion on impact, and goes higher and further. High risk high reward recovery, more intended to be used for aerial mixups to get to the ground quickly.
Jupiter: Hover. Isaac's conjures a platform restoring all of his aerial mobility (double jump, air dodge), with 2 djinns it can be reused indefinitely. He is vulnerable while on it. Strongest recovery, especially with 2 djinns. But easily punishable. Unlike Steve's block, Isaac cannot do a smash attack while on it.
Mercury: Froth: Isaac forms a bubble around him, giving up a multijump similar to kirby's. The jump are higher with 2 djinns. The bubble can be destroyed by attacks. While pretty slow, the bubble protects Isaac from one hit (if it doesn't exceed a certain %, for example 15%) he would be stuck in freefall after it is destroyed.

Down Special:

Djinn selection. It opens a menu in which you'll choose which djinn to set for your Neutral Special. You cannot move while selecting, and each element will affect Isaac's stats (weight, fall speed, ground and air speed...) swapping in the air can change how fast he'll continue to fall.
When a djinn finishes cooldown, a colored light will flash on Isaac along with a sound effect and his HUD updating.

Final Smash
Summoning: Isaac will perform a cinematic FS doing a summon that depends on his current djinn setup. It is purely a visual change and a damage type change (so some summons may not damage pikmins).
The possible summons being Judgment, Meteor, Thor and Boreas.
It starts by the djinns swirling around Isaac, upward, scooping opponents even behind. It puts half of his djinns in recovery.

Normal Moves:
Neutral/Jab: Three hit combo. Downward slash, upward slash ending with the sword above his shoulder, then using "Move" to push the opponent away a SET distance (not affected by damage, djinns etc).

Dash Attack: leaping sword strike, emulating his GBA attack animation. The leap has a pretty long reach and hits fairly hard.

Side Tilt: Slap, a psynergy hand slap that deals low damage but can reflect projectiles and turn still opponents arounds, has a pretty long recovery to avoid spamming.

Up Tilt: Simple arcing sword slash.

Down Tilt: Psynergy changing depending on djinn setup:
Venus:Spire: A stone spike rises in front of Isaac and strikes diagonnaly away from him. It has physical existence on the field and will stop projectiles during the animation. It can be destroyed by strong attacks/projectiles
Mars: Blast, short range explosion that launches far at a very low angle.
Jupiter: Whirlwind, small tornado that launches straight up but does very little damage.
Mercury: Cool, same as spire but reflects energy based projectiles, shatters on physical ones.

Side Smash:

Venus: Ragnarok. Similar to Bayonetta's Side smash, but conjuring an energy sword from a transmutation circle instead. Isaac's farthest reaching "physical" attack. With 2 djinns, becomes Odyssey, a 3 hit attack, first are two smaller blade impaling the opponent in place before striking with a giant one, lower reach for more damage.
Mars: Juggle/Fiery Juggle. conjures a circle of fireballs, with 2 djinns it conjures more, faster. They appear behind Isaac and are launched forward on release, slightly toward the ground.
Jupiter: Astral Blast/ Thunder mine: A colorful starshaped projectile strikes in front of Isaac. With 2 djinns it launches a giant thunderball which explodes on impact.
Mercury: Cutting Edge/Plume Edge: A short lived shockwave, which becomes a two timed attack with two djinns, the first trapping the opponent in water if it connects, before isaac strikes.

Up Smash:

Venus: Gaia, several small rocks lift from under isaac and are launched up right above him.
Mars: Fire, a swirl of fireballs are launched upward.
Jupiter: Wind Slash. A succession of wind blades over a short distance above Isaac, upward.
Mercury: Ice Horns, same as Gaia but with Ice Shards. Same range, different properties.
(Gaia keeps the opponent rather close to the ground, Fire can set them ablaze, Wind Slash pushes them further up and Mercury is somewhere between gaia and Wind Slash)

Down Smash:

Venus: Briar/Nettle, Thorny briar rises from the side toward Isaac, joining just above his head. Their thorns are bigger with 2 djinns, increasings the damage. It scoops opponents toward the center, similar to Roy's up smash.
Mars: Volcano/Pyroclasm Column of fire centered on isaac, two additionnal pillars if 2 djinns. Sets ablaze and has a low vertical/medium horizontal knockback.
Jupiter: Plasma/Shine Plasma: Lightning bolts striking next to isaac. Get bigger with 2 djinns. Knock straights down, making opponents bounce on the ground (could be techable)
Mercury: Prism/Hail prism: Giant ice blocks tossed on the ground, with two djinns a second one falls behind Isaac.

Aerials:

Neutral: A spinning slash, hitting first right behing him, before ending behind again with more range and power.

Forward: An horizontal slash from his left to his right, similar to Roy's but in one single strike.

Back: A jab behind him, purely horizontal hitbox.

A sweeping strike right below him with great horizontal reach, does spike at the exact center.

Grabs:

Grab: The "Catch" psynergy, fairly long range especially for a swordfighter.

Pummel: The hand squeezes the opponents.

Forward Throw: The "Force" Psynergy is used to punch the opponent away with a big telekynetic fist.

Back Throw: The "Grip" Psynergy pulls the opponent behind Isaac and launches them after passing by him.

Up Throw: The "Scoop" Psynergy launches them straight up!

Down Throw: The "Pound" Psynergy hammers them into the ground.


Classic Mode:

The Angarian Journey:
Reconstitute important fights from the first game. All are Endurance fights.

1st: Vault's Thieves. A fight against 3 thieves type characters (3 Sheiks for example) on a town map like Animal Crossing ones. Smokebombs appear regularly.

2nd: Kolima's Sacred Tree. A giant Ivysaur on Dreamland.

3nd: Saturos. A Duel against a blue color Roy atop of a tower stage (Mercury Lighthouse if Isaac's stage is the Lighthouses are his stage and can be swapped between all of them), possible stage could be the Plateau's Sheikah Tower. Fire Items spawn regularly, mostly Fire Flowers and X-Bombs. Roy's Fire attacks are increased.

4th: Mogall's great ape: A giant Green Donkey Kong and 2 Diddy Kongs. Screen could be reversed occasionaly to reflect the maze like-forest.

5th: The Colosso Finals: 3 Fighters in a row in the Arena. Likely Marth, Chrom then Ike. Some items (smoke bombs, food, Bobombs) can appear on the stage, that the opponents will rush.

6th: Saturos and Menardi: Blue Roy and Red Zelda. Zelda starts with a Death Scythe. This time the fight takes place on Venus Lighthouse.

7th: Rathalos Boss. Refers to Saturos and Menardi transformation into the Fusion Dragon.

6 and 7 could be replaced this way: 6th: The Ghost Pirate, Ganondorf on a Ship based stage with super armor.

7: Saturos and Menardi, but once Defeated spawns Ridley and Charizard to Emulate the Fusion Dragon.

Misc.

Palette would just be party members color. Colors 5 to 8 would be party members from the 2nd game.

Holds item with a small psynergy hand.

Taunts: Victory pose from the 3rd game, sword pointing to the ground, hands on the pommel.
Djinn acquisition animation.
One of the game's emote speech bubble pops above Isaac's head.

Victory animations: Isaac lifts an obstacle that was covery the camera with "Lift"
Isaac's runs after a djinn, trying to catch it.
Flint float's around Isaac before nestling in his scarf.


And here we are.
If I totally misunderstood how to do all of this, well...curses ! xD

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I personnaly am in favor of a gimmick mechanic with the djinns.
If it's allowed to go bonkers on it, here is my version of Isaac:

General Gameplay:
-Mid range area control to rack up % but needs to get close to deliver a killing bow.
-Somewhat high micro-management of the gimmick ressource: djinns.
- Stronger on the ground, but has a pretty solid recovery (will come to it)
-Possible change of some specials/other attacks depending on what djinns are equipped. Having 2 djinns set increases the range and charging speed for the specials. If no djinn is set, he'll default to the weakest version of his venus attacks. If too complicated, just resort to Venus attack (except when specified otherwise)
Special UI displaying Djinn status:

Specials:
Neutral Special: Uses the selected Djinn (2 per element, 8 total with different effects listed below)

Venus: Flint: A heavy knockback attack, one of Isaac's strongest killmove. Medium recovery time, no use outside of the attack. It comes out faster when isaac is on the ground.
Ground: Buries opponent close to Isaac to create an opening. The range is rather short and there is a delay before the gravity orbs comes down, it can be shielded or dodged. If used in the air, it will spike.

Mars: Forge: increases Isaac's physical damage (but not knockback) by 25% for 10 seconds, in team versus, affects his nearby allies as well.
Flash: Reduces the damage and knockdown of the next attack taken by 90%, the shield lasts 5 seconds but comes out instantly. Long recovery.

Jupiter: Kite: The next used special will be doubled. Replaying instantly without recovery frames. Some can be triggered midway through. Long recovery.
Luff: Seal's all the opponent's specials for 5 seconds, expect recoveries. Long recovery, midrange projectile, the djinn rushes forward, if it touches, it will take a short animation to seal the specials, during which the opponent can still use them. Long recovery

Mercury: Sleet: Short range projectile that reduces the damages inflicted by the affected targets by 25% for 10 seconds. The projectile is a fluid affected by gravity, similar in visual to Inkling's ink.
Eddy: Fasten the recovery of all other djinns currently in recovery, longest cooldown by far.

Side Special: The function stays relatively the same, but could change depending on what djinn is currently set on Isaac.

Venus: Quake, a short stone "wave" on the ground. Does not work midair, unless there is ground directly below Isaac. It'll be disjointed and the height will be unchanged. Medium damage, but strong vertical knockback.
Mars: Flare, a spray of fire forward. High damage but weak knockback.
Jupiter: Ray a longest lasting hitbox of electricity. Almost no knockback, but it does keep the targets in place thanks to the multihit. Giving a change to dash attack or grab.
Mercury: Frost, an icy wave on the ground. It shatters once it reaches its max range, doing a second, weaker, hit. All of the same range. Just different properties. Chargeable, increases the range.

UP Special: Vary strongly depending on the current djinns. If simplified, go with the Jupiter version.

Venus: Rockfall. Isaac steps on a large boulder materialising under his feet and use it a step ladder for a small jump. Upgraded version has him jump twice. Boulder falls and damages those under it. This is is weakest recovery, but is the best for ledge guard, as it can spike opponents recovering low.
Mars: Planet Diver/Planetary: Similar to Incineroar UpB, planterary causes a large explosion on impact, and goes higher and further. High risk high reward recovery, more intended to be used for aerial mixups to get to the ground quickly.
Jupiter: Hover. Isaac's conjures a platform restoring all of his aerial mobility (double jump, air dodge), with 2 djinns it can be reused indefinitely. He is vulnerable while on it. Strongest recovery, especially with 2 djinns. But easily punishable. Unlike Steve's block, Isaac cannot do a smash attack while on it.
Mercury: Froth: Isaac forms a bubble around him, giving up a multijump similar to kirby's. The jump are higher with 2 djinns. The bubble can be destroyed by attacks. While pretty slow, the bubble protects Isaac from one hit (if it doesn't exceed a certain %, for example 15%) he would be stuck in freefall after it is destroyed.

Down Special:

Djinn selection. It opens a menu in which you'll choose which djinn to set for your Neutral Special. You cannot move while selecting, and each element will affect Isaac's stats (weight, fall speed, ground and air speed...) swapping in the air can change how fast he'll continue to fall.
When a djinn finishes cooldown, a colored light will flash on Isaac along with a sound effect and his HUD updating.

Final Smash
Summoning: Isaac will perform a cinematic FS doing a summon that depends on his current djinn setup. It is purely a visual change and a damage type change (so some summons may not damage pikmins).
The possible summons being Judgment, Meteor, Thor and Boreas.
It starts by the djinns swirling around Isaac, upward, scooping opponents even behind. It puts half of his djinns in recovery.

Normal Moves:
Neutral/Jab: Three hit combo. Downward slash, upward slash ending with the sword above his shoulder, then using "Move" to push the opponent away a SET distance (not affected by damage, djinns etc).

Dash Attack: leaping sword strike, emulating his GBA attack animation. The leap has a pretty long reach and hits fairly hard.

Side Tilt: Slap, a psynergy hand slap that deals low damage but can reflect projectiles and turn still opponents arounds, has a pretty long recovery to avoid spamming.

Up Tilt: Simple arcing sword slash.

Down Tilt: Psynergy changing depending on djinn setup:
Venus:Spire: A stone spike rises in front of Isaac and strikes diagonnaly away from him. It has physical existence on the field and will stop projectiles during the animation. It can be destroyed by strong attacks/projectiles
Mars: Blast, short range explosion that launches far at a very low angle.
Jupiter: Whirlwind, small tornado that launches straight up but does very little damage.
Mercury: Cool, same as spire but reflects energy based projectiles, shatters on physical ones.

Side Smash:

Venus: Ragnarok. Similar to Bayonetta's Side smash, but conjuring an energy sword from a transmutation circle instead. Isaac's farthest reaching "physical" attack. With 2 djinns, becomes Odyssey, a 3 hit attack, first are two smaller blade impaling the opponent in place before striking with a giant one, lower reach for more damage.
Mars: Juggle/Fiery Juggle. conjures a circle of fireballs, with 2 djinns it conjures more, faster. They appear behind Isaac and are launched forward on release, slightly toward the ground.
Jupiter: Astral Blast/ Thunder mine: A colorful starshaped projectile strikes in front of Isaac. With 2 djinns it launches a giant thunderball which explodes on impact.
Mercury: Cutting Edge/Plume Edge: A short lived shockwave, which becomes a two timed attack with two djinns, the first trapping the opponent in water if it connects, before isaac strikes.

Up Smash:

Venus: Gaia, several small rocks lift from under isaac and are launched up right above him.
Mars: Fire, a swirl of fireballs are launched upward.
Jupiter: Wind Slash. A succession of wind blades over a short distance above Isaac, upward.
Mercury: Ice Horns, same as Gaia but with Ice Shards. Same range, different properties.
(Gaia keeps the opponent rather close to the ground, Fire can set them ablaze, Wind Slash pushes them further up and Mercury is somewhere between gaia and Wind Slash)

Down Smash:

Venus: Briar/Nettle, Thorny briar rises from the side toward Isaac, joining just above his head. Their thorns are bigger with 2 djinns, increasings the damage. It scoops opponents toward the center, similar to Roy's up smash.
Mars: Volcano/Pyroclasm Column of fire centered on isaac, two additionnal pillars if 2 djinns. Sets ablaze and has a low vertical/medium horizontal knockback.
Jupiter: Plasma/Shine Plasma: Lightning bolts striking next to isaac. Get bigger with 2 djinns. Knock straights down, making opponents bounce on the ground (could be techable)
Mercury: Prism/Hail prism: Giant ice blocks tossed on the ground, with two djinns a second one falls behind Isaac.

Aerials:

Neutral: A spinning slash, hitting first right behing him, before ending behind again with more range and power.

Forward: An horizontal slash from his left to his right, similar to Roy's but in one single strike.

Back: A jab behind him, purely horizontal hitbox.

A sweeping strike right below him with great horizontal reach, does spike at the exact center.

Grabs:

Grab: The "Catch" psynergy, fairly long range especially for a swordfighter.

Pummel: The hand squeezes the opponents.

Forward Throw: The "Force" Psynergy is used to punch the opponent away with a big telekynetic fist.

Back Throw: The "Grip" Psynergy pulls the opponent behind Isaac and launches them after passing by him.

Up Throw: The "Scoop" Psynergy launches them straight up!

Down Throw: The "Pound" Psynergy hammers them into the ground.


Classic Mode:

The Angarian Journey:
Reconstitute important fights from the first game. All are Endurance fights.

1st: Vault's Thieves. A fight against 3 thieves type characters (3 Sheiks for example) on a town map like Animal Crossing ones. Smokebombs appear regularly.

2nd: Kolima's Sacred Tree. A giant Ivysaur on Dreamland.

3nd: Saturos. A Duel against a blue color Roy atop of a tower stage (Mercury Lighthouse if Isaac's stage is the Lighthouses are his stage and can be swapped between all of them), possible stage could be the Plateau's Sheikah Tower. Fire Items spawn regularly, mostly Fire Flowers and X-Bombs. Roy's Fire attacks are increased.

4th: Mogall's great ape: A giant Green Donkey Kong and 2 Diddy Kongs. Screen could be reversed occasionaly to reflect the maze like-forest.

5th: The Colosso Finals: 3 Fighters in a row in the Arena. Likely Marth, Chrom then Ike. Some items (smoke bombs, food, Bobombs) can appear on the stage, that the opponents will rush.

6th: Saturos and Menardi: Blue Roy and Red Zelda. Zelda starts with a Death Scythe. This time the fight takes place on Venus Lighthouse.

7th: Rathalos Boss. Refers to Saturos and Menardi transformation into the Fusion Dragon.

6 and 7 could be replaced this way: 6th: The Ghost Pirate, Ganondorf on a Ship based stage with super armor.

7: Saturos and Menardi, but once Defeated spawns Ridley and Charizard to Emulate the Fusion Dragon.

Misc.

Palette would just be party members color. Colors 5 to 8 would be party members from the 2nd game.

Holds item with a small psynergy hand.

Taunts: Victory pose from the 3rd game, sword pointing to the ground, hands on the pommel.
Djinn acquisition animation.
One of the game's emote speech bubble pops above Isaac's head.

Victory animations: Isaac lifts an obstacle that was covery the camera with "Lift"
Isaac's runs after a djinn, trying to catch it.
Flint float's around Isaac before nestling in his scarf.


And here we are.
If I totally misunderstood how to do all of this, well...curses ! xD

We are currently only focusing on the character’s gameplay and mechanics before diving into the specials and other content but your contribution is much appreciated. My only issue with this is that attacks like Frost, Astral Blast, etc are not typically attributes to Isaac. While it’s a great way to incorporate the entire element of the series and the myriad of attacks that comes with these elements; it’s not entirely Isaac if that makes sense.

 

[Kalaam]

We are currently only focusing on the character’s gameplay and mechanics before diving into the specials and other content but your contribution is much appreciated. My only issue with this is that attacks like Frost, Astral Blast, etc are not typically attributes to Isaac. While it’s a great way to incorporate the entire element of the series and the myriad of attacks that comes with these elements; it’s not entirely Isaac if that makes sense.

I wasn't sure how to differentiate the two, sorry.

So yeah for gameplay, to make it shorter and more digest, I was thinking of a management of different "ability sets" through djinn swaps.
Being in an element affects Isaac's stats like speed, damage,resistance, etc.
Two djinns per elements, using one performs a special move and puts it in cooldown. If you still have a djinn of that same element ready, you swap to it automatically and stay in that element. If you do not, Isaac reverts to default (Venus).

A lot of attacks would be area of effect, few spells would be killmoves and you'd have to get close to finish your opponent. The idea would be to stay close enough to get in and strike but keeping the opponent away with wide spells for damage and conditionning. Changing element/class for mixups and adapting to the situation/matchup.

Is that better ?

My only issue with this is that attacks like Frost, Astral Blast, etc are not typically attributes to Isaac. While it’s a great way to incorporate the entire element of the series and the myriad of attacks that comes with these elements; it’s not entirely Isaac if that makes sense.

Technically those are all spells Isaac can get through changing class, which is how the Djinn system works. That's what I wanted to implement, since it is something most people not familiar with the games do not know.

 

[ahemtoday]

I see what the thought process is with giving Isaac a Djinn system. That is a big element of Golden Sun's battle system. However... it doesn't quite feel right, to me. Not the specific system you came up with, just having a Djinn system in general. I feel like Isaac has enough unique about him - I mean, not a lot of characters with earth powers - that he doesn't really... need something like that. For the record, my philosophy with a character is that they should be as complex as they need to be to represent the character, and no more.

 

[Kalaam]

I see what the thought process is with giving Isaac a Djinn system. That is a big element of Golden Sun's battle system. However... it doesn't quite feel right, to me. Not the specific system you came up with, just having a Djinn system in general. I feel like Isaac has enough unique about him - I mean, not a lot of characters with earth powers - that he doesn't really... need something like that. For the record, my philosophy with a character is that they should be as complex as they need to be to represent the character, and no more.

This is fair. This concept is about pushing it to the extreme as to how to represent the game as a whole. Kind of like Steve went to extra length with crafting, gathering materials etc. Whereas Sephiroth doesn't reprensent FF7 as much as Sephiroth himself with traits specific to him that do not even appear in his source game. As stated at the beginning of my concept, Isaac could be simplified with just using the Venus attacks, and djinns are just special moves+stats alterations. A mix of Hero's menu (without RNG) and Shulk's Monado arts.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

This is fair. This concept is about pushing it to the extreme as to how to represent the game as a whole. Kind of like Steve went to extra length with crafting, gathering materials etc. Whereas Sephiroth doesn't reprensent FF7 as much as Sephiroth himself with traits specific to him that do not even appear in his source game. As stated at the beginning of my concept, Isaac could be simplified with just using the Venus attacks, and djinns are just special moves+stats alterations. A mix of Hero's menu (without RNG) and Shulk's Monado arts.

I can fully understand wanting to give a character mechanics that represents both the basic and more advanced aspects of their games. Still, a part of me feels a bit not sure about allow Isaac to use both fire, earth, wind, lightning, water, and ice in his moveset when general players known him for his earth abilities. Cloud never uses his Materia which is a big aspect of his games. Pikachu can technically learn Surf, Dynamic Punch, Grass Knot, Iron Tail, Toxic, and evening Fly outside of the typical experience point system though it still technically only uses electric-based moves except agility. That being said, seeing his reveal trailer and see him bust out some moves other than earth would be pretty sick. Everyone would be like “Wait...WAIT...he can use ice attacks, too? When?!”

What if we were to take that idea with the Djinn but, instead of giving his entire moveset the Djinn moves, map it only to the neutral Soecial? So he pulls out a Earth Djinn and can use an earth attack? Or, if we want to get a bit more crazy, charge it up like Hero or Sephiroth to change the name and nature of attack?

 

[Kalaam]

I can fully understand wanting to give a character mechanics that represents both the basic and more advanced aspects of their games. Still, a part of me feels a bit not sure about allow Isaac to use both fire, earth, wind, lightning, water, and ice in his moveset when general players known him for his earth abilities. Cloud never uses his Materia which is a big aspect of his games. Pikachu can technically learn Surf, Dynamic Punch, Grass Knot, Iron Tail, Toxic, and evening Fly outside of the typical experience point system though it still technically only uses electric-based moves except agility. That being said, seeing his reveal trailer and see him bust out some moves other than earth would be pretty sick. Everyone would be like “Wait...WAIT...he can use ice attacks, too? When?!”

What if we were to take that idea with the Djinn but, instead of giving his entire moveset the Djinn moves, map it only to the neutral Soecial? So he pulls out a Earth Djinn and can use an earth attack? Or, if we want to get a bit more crazy, charge it up like Hero or Sephiroth to change the name and nature of attack?

We could just keep the djinns as a dedicated special and the rest be Venus spells only yes. That's the "simplified" version I meant. Could be made so holding B opens a menu (monado style) and tapping it uses the selected djinn.

 

[PeridotGX]

I never got a response to either of my posts, so i'm re-posting them.

here's a question: what if Issac (for example) is one of the DLC fighters in Ultimate? Do we ignore it, or remove him and re-do his slot? What if it's a character we've made an assist trophy?

I don't have anything to be added yet, but I want to be a development partner

Venus of the Desert Bloom

 

[WarioJim]

What if we were to take that idea with the Djinn but, instead of giving his entire moveset the Djinn moves, map it only to the neutral Soecial? So he pulls out a Earth Djinn and can use an earth attack?

Yeah, that's like what I said before, you could feature certain Djinn unleashes in his attacks or specials, while his Final Smash could be the Djinn summon Judgement.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I never got a response to either of my posts, so i'm re-posting them.


Venus of the Desert Bloom

Sorry Peridot, my only work/family schedule and the rate this thread moves causes things to fly under my radar. That is one thing I am thinking and I am working under the assumption that, even if one of our charqcters gets included as the final 3 DLC, we will keep the build we made for them but “demote” them to a Veteran. In that case, there will be an extra slot made available in the newcomer section.

Or...

Consider this a split in the timeline where “this character” was included as dlc in the main timeline compared to this thread’s timeline “Sequel Timeline” where that character wasn’t included as a dlc character thus an entirely new character.

Yeah, that's like what I said before, you could feature certain Djinn unleashes in his attacks or specials, while his Final Smash could be the Djinn summon Judgement.

I’ve noted this in my overview for Isaac. This is getting close to his moveset territory and I do want to move discussion back to his gameplay.

Within the next 24 hours, we will be wrapping up the gameplay/mechanic discussion and I will “publish” his assessment based on what people said in this thread. People are free to approve or disapprove of it. I will outline how to when the time comes.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Sorry Peridot, my only work/family schedule and the rate this thread moves causes things to fly under my radar. That is one thing I am thinking and I am working under the assumption that, even if one of our charqcters gets included as the final 3 DLC, we will keep the build we made for them but “demote” them to a Veteran. In that case, there will be an extra slot made available in the newcomer section.

Or...

Consider this a split in the timeline where “this character” was included as dlc in the main timeline compared to this thread’s timeline “Sequel Timeline” where that character wasn’t included as a dlc character thus an entirely new character.

I'm in favor of the first option personally, I'm assuming we can work on veteran changes as time goes on so knocking one of our newcomers down to veteran status would make things less convoluted.

Also I tried becoming a developer partner yesterday but I guess it must have flown under the radar. So Venus of the Desert Bloom I'd like to become one if I can.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I'm in favor of the first option personally, I'm assuming we can work on veteran changes as time goes on so knocking one of our newcomers down to veteran status would make things less convoluted.

Also I tried becoming a developer partner yesterday but I guess it must have flown under the radar. So Venus of the Desert Bloom I'd like to become one if I can.

You have been added. I’m sorry about that.

I do want to take the time to explain briefly some intentions going into this thread:

1) Isaac is sort of a trial on how submitting, voting, and developing a character. So far, it’s gone far better than I previously anticipated which is a good thing. We are still developing the character but I love the discussion and conversation. I hope we can continue forward into his moveset and other content without any hitches.

2) Due to this positive feedback when starting this thread, I think I will try to increase the output of content. Basically, we did really well with three jobs so we will be increasing this slightly in the future. I also plan on us not only submitting, voting, and development one character but several at once. We will have to see how it goes but I hope to start it gradually.

3) There many be periods of time where I will be unavailable to work on this thread so it would be great to have 2-3 people who can help direct discussion, start or finish our jobs, count votes, and so on. That would help with my own workload and perhaps make the thread a bit more productive.

4) I can probably get to to sometime tomorrow but, if anyone is good at editing photos, could you make these smash icons white by turning up the brightness?

File:MinecraftSymbol.svg

www.ssbwiki.com

File:PersonaSymbol.svg

www.ssbwiki.com

File:SonicSymbol.svg

www.ssbwiki.com

File:WiiFitSymbol.svg

www.ssbwiki.com

They are all found on the SmashWiki and I intend to use them for the assist trophy table. I normally would take care of it but I can’t until for a while so if someone could do that and post them back on here, that would be great.

 

[ahemtoday]

This is fair. This concept is about pushing it to the extreme as to how to represent the game as a whole. Kind of like Steve went to extra length with crafting, gathering materials etc. Whereas Sephiroth doesn't reprensent FF7 as much as Sephiroth himself with traits specific to him that do not even appear in his source game. As stated at the beginning of my concept, Isaac could be simplified with just using the Venus attacks, and djinns are just special moves+stats alterations. A mix of Hero's menu (without RNG) and Shulk's Monado arts.

That's a little more in the realm of complexity I wanted, but it still... doesn't quite feel necessary, in my opinion. For the record, I honestly feel the same way about a lot of the unique character mechanics in Smash. I think a lot of them aren't necessary, and in a lot of cases are just sort of made up or only vaguely based on the source material.

Actually, okay. Let me give a counterproposal. But before I do, let me just say that I'm not retracting my earlier statement that Isaac should be a relatively gimmickless character. But I do see the logic behind giving him a Djinn system. However, if we are going to give him a gimmick, it needs to accurately reflect the way battles work in the source material. So, with that in mind, here's a different take on a Djinn system for Isaac.

Just like I did with gimmickless Isaac, I'll begin by outlining the traits I would want to highlight about the Djinn system. Keep in mind I am unfamiliar with Golden Sun, and am basing this off of reading the wiki.

• Djinn are equippables that come in all four elements. When you go into a battle, your characters already have Djinn equipped. They don't change which Djinn are equipped mid-fight, so I really don't think this should be a mechanic based around switching between Djinn.
• Players will typically start a fight with a majority of their Djinn - if not all of them - set. Set Djinn can be unleashed to perform a move unique to that particular Djinni.
• Once unleashed, a Djinn enters standby mode. Djinn on standby can't be unleashed anymore. You can re-set one Djinni on standby at the cost of your turn.
• If you have enough standby Djinn of the correct elements, you can use them to perform a summon, an extremely powerful attack. After being used for a summon, Djinn enter recovery mode, effectively being on cooldown. After a short amount of time, one Djinni in recovery mode will automatically re-set itself, and can then be unleashed once more.

So with that in mind, if we're giving Isaac a unique mechanic focused around Djinn - which I will reiterate we don't necessarily have to do - here's a general outline of the concept I think would be best:

Each of Isaac's specials is tied to Djinn of a certain element. His neutral special uses Venus (earth) Djinn, his side special uses Mars (fire) Djinn, his up special use Jupiter (wind) Djinn, and his down special uses Mercury (water) Djinn.

When you use a special, you unleash a Djinn of that element. Once you do, that Djinn goes into standby, and is pictured above Isaac's damage meter. Then, you'll unleash a different Djinn of the same element the next time you use the special. The effect will be fairly similar, though there may be slight differences. Alternatively, you could have a setup like Dancing Blade or Octaslash, where there are multiple variants of each special that use different Djinn. You would lose access to those options as you unleash them.

In any case, if you try to perform a special while all Djinn of that element are on standby, you'll perform a summon. I'll admit that I'm unsure how this would be done in the option-loss variant of this mechanic. In any case, summons are powerful attacks that are nonetheless quite risky, as they leave you significantly open to attack at the beginning and/or end of the summon as a representation of recovery mode. Alternatively, there could be a more traditional cooldown after performing a summon, during which time that special button does nothing at all.

However, if you've used all your Jupiter Djinn, you aren't locked into performing a risky summon just to get back onstage. At least, not if you play your cards right. Your shield special is a less risky option that will re-set all the Djinn currently on standby. This, of course, means that you lose out on the Summon, but on the flipside, you don't have to take the risk.

Let's walk through a couple examples of using Isaac's neutral special, for a couple of possible variants. Keep in mind we could mix and match the traits of these.

• Hitting the neutral special once unleashes Flint with a sort of earthy sword attack. Hit it again, and it unleashes Echo, with another earthy sword attack. Hit it again, and it unleashes Sap, which is another earthy sword attack but this time having a kind of draining effect. One more time unleashes Steel, which is basically the same as Sap. Then, finally, pressing B again uses Judgement, an attack with a couple seconds of endlag where a knight dude shoots a beam out of a lion shield.
• The neutral special is chargeable similarly to Gigaflare. Depending on the level of charge, you'll use Flint, Echo, or Geode; who are all different flavors of earthy sword attack. One you use one, you lose access to it. After you use all three, the only thing you can do with neutral-B is summon Cybele, after which all your Venus Djinn will be on cooldown and unusable for a while.

 

[Speed Weed]

I also plan on us not only submitting, voting, and development one character but several at once.

I get the intention but I'm also worried that if we end up with too much on our plate at once, this project is gonna start feeling convoluted and unfocused

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I get the intention but I'm also worried that if we end up with too much on our plate at once, this project is gonna start feeling convoluted and unfocused

That is certainly one issue that we should be aware of. That’s why I want to do it gradually and make it easier rather than harder initially.

That's a little more in the realm of complexity I wanted, but it still... doesn't quite feel necessary, in my opinion. For the record, I honestly feel the same way about a lot of the unique character mechanics in Smash. I think a lot of them aren't necessary, and in a lot of cases are just sort of made up or only vaguely based on the source material.

Actually, okay. Let me give a counterproposal. But before I do, let me just say that I'm not retracting my earlier statement that Isaac should be a relatively gimmickless character. But I do see the logic behind giving him a Djinn system. However, if we are going to give him a gimmick, it needs to accurately reflect the way battles work in the source material. So, with that in mind, here's a different take on a Djinn system for Isaac.

Just like I did with gimmickless Isaac, I'll begin by outlining the traits I would want to highlight about the Djinn system. Keep in mind I am unfamiliar with Golden Sun, and am basing this off of reading the wiki.

• Djinn are equippables that come in all four elements. When you go into a battle, your characters already have Djinn equipped. They don't change which Djinn are equipped mid-fight, so I really don't think this should be a mechanic based around switching between Djinn.
• Players will typically start a fight with a majority of their Djinn - if not all of them - set. Set Djinn can be unleashed to perform a move unique to that particular Djinni.
• Once unleashed, a Djinn enters standby mode. Djinn on standby can't be unleashed anymore. You can re-set one Djinni on standby at the cost of your turn.
• If you have enough standby Djinn of the correct elements, you can use them to perform a summon, an extremely powerful attack. After being used for a summon, Djinn enter recovery mode, effectively being on cooldown. After a short amount of time, one Djinni in recovery mode will automatically re-set itself, and can then be unleashed once more.

So with that in mind, if we're giving Isaac a unique mechanic focused around Djinn - which I will reiterate we don't necessarily have to do - here's a general outline of the concept I think would be best:

Each of Isaac's specials is tied to Djinn of a certain element. His neutral special uses Venus (earth) Djinn, his side special uses Mars (fire) Djinn, his up special use Jupiter (wind) Djinn, and his down special uses Mercury (water) Djinn.

When you use a special, you unleash a Djinn of that element. Once you do, that Djinn goes into standby, and is pictured above Isaac's damage meter. Then, you'll unleash a different Djinn of the same element the next time you use the special. The effect will be fairly similar, though there may be slight differences. Alternatively, you could have a setup like Dancing Blade or Octaslash, where there are multiple variants of each special that use different Djinn. You would lose access to those options as you unleash them.

In any case, if you try to perform a special while all Djinn of that element are on standby, you'll perform a summon. I'll admit that I'm unsure how this would be done in the option-loss variant of this mechanic. In any case, summons are powerful attacks that are nonetheless quite risky, as they leave you significantly open to attack at the beginning and/or end of the summon as a representation of recovery mode. Alternatively, there could be a more traditional cooldown after performing a summon, during which time that special button does nothing at all.

However, if you've used all your Jupiter Djinn, you aren't locked into performing a risky summon just to get back onstage. At least, not if you play your cards right. Your shield special is a less risky option that will re-set all the Djinn currently on standby. This, of course, means that you lose out on the Summon, but on the flipside, you don't have to take the risk.

Let's walk through a couple examples of using Isaac's neutral special, for a couple of possible variants. Keep in mind we could mix and match the traits of these.

• Hitting the neutral special once unleashes Flint with a sort of earthy sword attack. Hit it again, and it unleashes Echo, with another earthy sword attack. Hit it again, and it unleashes Sap, which is another earthy sword attack but this time having a kind of draining effect. One more time unleashes Steel, which is basically the same as Sap. Then, finally, pressing B again uses Judgement, an attack with a couple seconds of endlag where a knight dude shoots a beam out of a lion shield.
• The neutral special is chargeable similarly to Gigaflare. Depending on the level of charge, you'll use Flint, Echo, or Geode; who are all different flavors of earthy sword attack. One you use one, you lose access to it. After you use all three, the only thing you can do with neutral-B is summon Cybele, after which all your Venus Djinn will be on cooldown and unusable for a while.

If we were to go with a Djinn aspect gameplay, I do think this would be the route to go along with the moves that Kalaam gave us in their previous posts. As I said earlier, this type of thing seems more like a moveset gimmick (Steve’s Mine and Shulk’s Monado Arts) compared to a gameplay gimmick (Bowser’s Tough Guy and Sephy’s One Winged Angel.).

I do want to see more emphasis placed on Isaac’s Venus Psyenergy in the moveset so, perhaps, even though he could use these Djinn and different elemental properties, his Venus ones would be the most powerful in terms of damage and benefit him the most.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I after browsing through the Isaac discussion, I feel like this is the most prevalent viewpoint on the character:

• midweight fighter who has extraordinary reach
• thanks to his sword and special abilities
  spellsword
  strong, defense-oriented fighter
• Largely relies on magical attacks as opposed to sword attacks
• Strong ground again with weak aerials
• Strong zoner

The biggest issue facing Isaac seems to be giving him a Djinn mechanic; that is to say to be able to use elemental creatures within his character to use powerful attacks and techniques. So far, a fair majority of the participants felt Isaac was best suited as a non-gimmick, simple fighter but a feel have expressed an interest in incorporating a Djinn mechanic.

Non-Djinn Mechanic Camp

This thread looks like it's exactly my style. Can I be a developer partner?

Anyway, let's talk about Isaac's moveset.

This may seem odd, but I've noticed characters that have been heavily requested since Brawl - for instance, Ridley, King K. Rool, and Banjo & Kazooie - tend to have simpler movesets that wouldn't seem out-of-place in Brawl. I suppose maybe it's about giving fans of the character a moveset that matches what they would have expected from the character all those years ago. With that in mind, I'm not particularly interested in giving Isaac some kind of XP or Djinn gimmick. The most I would go for is about Sephiroth's level of complexity.

When I make a moveset, I like to outline the core elements of the character that I would wish to highlight. So let's do that. Keep in mind that I'm not that familiar with Golden Sun.

• Above all, Isaac is a Venus Adept. In other words, he has earth magic.
• Isaac gets Cure at a low level in his default class series. (At least, that's what the wiki tells me.) In the early game, he's your healer.
• In addition to typical earth magic, Isaac also gets utility Psynergy like Move, which are actually used in the field.
• Isaac is considered a "warrior-style Adept" by the wiki, in comparison to "mage-style Adepts".
• I'm not confident in this having not played the game, but if Golden Sun is like any other RPG, you're gonna be using earth magic way more than your sword.

Now, I can construct a moveset with these in mind. Or at least a mere outline of a moveset.

Isaac fits the general mold of a swordfighter, but he doesn't do that much actual swordfighting. Instead, most of his disjoints are actually Venus Psynergy. They're not projectiles, so he isn't a zoner, but they do give him a decently large range. As an earth mage, it follows that his ground game is better than his air game.

• Isaac's down-tilt is Quake, which causes a column of earth to come from the ground and bounce an opponent upward. It's good to start combos, but its hitbox is directly on the ground, so it won't really hit airborne opponents.
• Isaac's down-smash is Gaia, which cause a pillar of energy to erupt from the ground beneath him. This is a powerful move that covers all around you, but it leaves you quite vulnerable if you miss.
• Isaac's down-air is Spire. It's a stall-then-fall attack where Isaac creates a variety of stalactites... then charges downward with them, sword pointed down.
• Isaac's up-B is Growth. It creates a tall plant that has a hitbox while it's growing. For the few seconds it's on the field, it can be climbed like a ladder.
• Isaac's down-B is Cure. This move heals Isaac about 5%, but is somewhat risky to pull off due to its high start- and endlag.
• Isaac's final smash is Judgment, It's a cutscene final smash that recreates the animation for the original's Judgment summon,

Option 2: Pro-Djinn Mechanic Camp

I personnaly am in favor of a gimmick mechanic with the djinns.
If it's allowed to go bonkers on it, here is my version of Isaac:

General Gameplay:
-Mid range area control to rack up % but needs to get close to deliver a killing bow.
-Somewhat high micro-management of the gimmick ressource: djinns.
- Stronger on the ground, but has a pretty solid recovery (will come to it)
-Possible change of some specials/other attacks depending on what djinns are equipped. Having 2 djinns set increases the range and charging speed for the specials. If no djinn is set, he'll default to the weakest version of his venus attacks. If too complicated, just resort to Venus attack (except when specified otherwise)
Special UI displaying Djinn status:

Specials:
Neutral Special: Uses the selected Djinn (2 per element, 8 total with different effects listed below)

Venus: Flint: A heavy knockback attack, one of Isaac's strongest killmove. Medium recovery time, no use outside of the attack. It comes out faster when isaac is on the ground.
Ground: Buries opponent close to Isaac to create an opening. The range is rather short and there is a delay before the gravity orbs comes down, it can be shielded or dodged. If used in the air, it will spike.

Mars: Forge: increases Isaac's physical damage (but not knockback) by 25% for 10 seconds, in team versus, affects his nearby allies as well.
Flash: Reduces the damage and knockdown of the next attack taken by 90%, the shield lasts 5 seconds but comes out instantly. Long recovery.

Jupiter: Kite: The next used special will be doubled. Replaying instantly without recovery frames. Some can be triggered midway through. Long recovery.
Luff: Seal's all the opponent's specials for 5 seconds, expect recoveries. Long recovery, midrange projectile, the djinn rushes forward, if it touches, it will take a short animation to seal the specials, during which the opponent can still use them. Long recovery

Mercury: Sleet: Short range projectile that reduces the damages inflicted by the affected targets by 25% for 10 seconds. The projectile is a fluid affected by gravity, similar in visual to Inkling's ink.
Eddy: Fasten the recovery of all other djinns currently in recovery, longest cooldown by far.

Side Special: The function stays relatively the same, but could change depending on what djinn is currently set on Isaac.

Venus: Quake, a short stone "wave" on the ground. Does not work midair, unless there is ground directly below Isaac. It'll be disjointed and the height will be unchanged. Medium damage, but strong vertical knockback.
Mars: Flare, a spray of fire forward. High damage but weak knockback.
Jupiter: Ray a longest lasting hitbox of electricity. Almost no knockback, but it does keep the targets in place thanks to the multihit. Giving a change to dash attack or grab.
Mercury: Frost, an icy wave on the ground. It shatters once it reaches its max range, doing a second, weaker, hit. All of the same range. Just different properties. Chargeable, increases the range.

UP Special: Vary strongly depending on the current djinns. If simplified, go with the Jupiter version.

Venus: Rockfall. Isaac steps on a large boulder materialising under his feet and use it a step ladder for a small jump. Upgraded version has him jump twice. Boulder falls and damages those under it. This is is weakest recovery, but is the best for ledge guard, as it can spike opponents recovering low.
Mars: Planet Diver/Planetary: Similar to Incineroar UpB, planterary causes a large explosion on impact, and goes higher and further. High risk high reward recovery, more intended to be used for aerial mixups to get to the ground quickly.
Jupiter: Hover. Isaac's conjures a platform restoring all of his aerial mobility (double jump, air dodge), with 2 djinns it can be reused indefinitely. He is vulnerable while on it. Strongest recovery, especially with 2 djinns. But easily punishable. Unlike Steve's block, Isaac cannot do a smash attack while on it.
Mercury: Froth: Isaac forms a bubble around him, giving up a multijump similar to kirby's. The jump are higher with 2 djinns. The bubble can be destroyed by attacks. While pretty slow, the bubble protects Isaac from one hit (if it doesn't exceed a certain %, for example 15%) he would be stuck in freefall after it is destroyed.

Down Special:

Djinn selection. It opens a menu in which you'll choose which djinn to set for your Neutral Special. You cannot move while selecting, and each element will affect Isaac's stats (weight, fall speed, ground and air speed...) swapping in the air can change how fast he'll continue to fall.
When a djinn finishes cooldown, a colored light will flash on Isaac along with a sound effect and his HUD updating.

Final Smash
Summoning: Isaac will perform a cinematic FS doing a summon that depends on his current djinn setup. It is purely a visual change and a damage type change (so some summons may not damage pikmins).
The possible summons being Judgment, Meteor, Thor and Boreas.
It starts by the djinns swirling around Isaac, upward, scooping opponents even behind. It puts half of his djinns in recovery.

Normal Moves:
Neutral/Jab: Three hit combo. Downward slash, upward slash ending with the sword above his shoulder, then using "Move" to push the opponent away a SET distance (not affected by damage, djinns etc).

Dash Attack: leaping sword strike, emulating his GBA attack animation. The leap has a pretty long reach and hits fairly hard.

Side Tilt: Slap, a psynergy hand slap that deals low damage but can reflect projectiles and turn still opponents arounds, has a pretty long recovery to avoid spamming.

Up Tilt: Simple arcing sword slash.

Down Tilt: Psynergy changing depending on djinn setup:
Venus:Spire: A stone spike rises in front of Isaac and strikes diagonnaly away from him. It has physical existence on the field and will stop projectiles during the animation. It can be destroyed by strong attacks/projectiles
Mars: Blast, short range explosion that launches far at a very low angle.
Jupiter: Whirlwind, small tornado that launches straight up but does very little damage.
Mercury: Cool, same as spire but reflects energy based projectiles, shatters on physical ones.

Side Smash:

Venus: Ragnarok. Similar to Bayonetta's Side smash, but conjuring an energy sword from a transmutation circle instead. Isaac's farthest reaching "physical" attack. With 2 djinns, becomes Odyssey, a 3 hit attack, first are two smaller blade impaling the opponent in place before striking with a giant one, lower reach for more damage.
Mars: Juggle/Fiery Juggle. conjures a circle of fireballs, with 2 djinns it conjures more, faster. They appear behind Isaac and are launched forward on release, slightly toward the ground.
Jupiter: Astral Blast/ Thunder mine: A colorful starshaped projectile strikes in front of Isaac. With 2 djinns it launches a giant thunderball which explodes on impact.
Mercury: Cutting Edge/Plume Edge: A short lived shockwave, which becomes a two timed attack with two djinns, the first trapping the opponent in water if it connects, before isaac strikes.

Up Smash:

Venus: Gaia, several small rocks lift from under isaac and are launched up right above him.
Mars: Fire, a swirl of fireballs are launched upward.
Jupiter: Wind Slash. A succession of wind blades over a short distance above Isaac, upward.
Mercury: Ice Horns, same as Gaia but with Ice Shards. Same range, different properties.
(Gaia keeps the opponent rather close to the ground, Fire can set them ablaze, Wind Slash pushes them further up and Mercury is somewhere between gaia and Wind Slash)

Down Smash:

Venus: Briar/Nettle, Thorny briar rises from the side toward Isaac, joining just above his head. Their thorns are bigger with 2 djinns, increasings the damage. It scoops opponents toward the center, similar to Roy's up smash.
Mars: Volcano/Pyroclasm Column of fire centered on isaac, two additionnal pillars if 2 djinns. Sets ablaze and has a low vertical/medium horizontal knockback.
Jupiter: Plasma/Shine Plasma: Lightning bolts striking next to isaac. Get bigger with 2 djinns. Knock straights down, making opponents bounce on the ground (could be techable)
Mercury: Prism/Hail prism: Giant ice blocks tossed on the ground, with two djinns a second one falls behind Isaac.

Aerials:

Neutral: A spinning slash, hitting first right behing him, before ending behind again with more range and power.

Forward: An horizontal slash from his left to his right, similar to Roy's but in one single strike.

Back: A jab behind him, purely horizontal hitbox.

A sweeping strike right below him with great horizontal reach, does spike at the exact center.

Grabs:

Grab: The "Catch" psynergy, fairly long range especially for a swordfighter.

Pummel: The hand squeezes the opponents.

Forward Throw: The "Force" Psynergy is used to punch the opponent away with a big telekynetic fist.

Back Throw: The "Grip" Psynergy pulls the opponent behind Isaac and launches them after passing by him.

Up Throw: The "Scoop" Psynergy launches them straight up!

Down Throw: The "Pound" Psynergy hammers them into the ground.


Classic Mode:

The Angarian Journey:
Reconstitute important fights from the first game. All are Endurance fights.

1st: Vault's Thieves. A fight against 3 thieves type characters (3 Sheiks for example) on a town map like Animal Crossing ones. Smokebombs appear regularly.

2nd: Kolima's Sacred Tree. A giant Ivysaur on Dreamland.

3nd: Saturos. A Duel against a blue color Roy atop of a tower stage (Mercury Lighthouse if Isaac's stage is the Lighthouses are his stage and can be swapped between all of them), possible stage could be the Plateau's Sheikah Tower. Fire Items spawn regularly, mostly Fire Flowers and X-Bombs. Roy's Fire attacks are increased.

4th: Mogall's great ape: A giant Green Donkey Kong and 2 Diddy Kongs. Screen could be reversed occasionaly to reflect the maze like-forest.

5th: The Colosso Finals: 3 Fighters in a row in the Arena. Likely Marth, Chrom then Ike. Some items (smoke bombs, food, Bobombs) can appear on the stage, that the opponents will rush.

6th: Saturos and Menardi: Blue Roy and Red Zelda. Zelda starts with a Death Scythe. This time the fight takes place on Venus Lighthouse.

7th: Rathalos Boss. Refers to Saturos and Menardi transformation into the Fusion Dragon.

6 and 7 could be replaced this way: 6th: The Ghost Pirate, Ganondorf on a Ship based stage with super armor.

7: Saturos and Menardi, but once Defeated spawns Ridley and Charizard to Emulate the Fusion Dragon.

Misc.

Palette would just be party members color. Colors 5 to 8 would be party members from the 2nd game.

Holds item with a small psynergy hand.

Taunts: Victory pose from the 3rd game, sword pointing to the ground, hands on the pommel.
Djinn acquisition animation.
One of the game's emote speech bubble pops above Isaac's head.

Victory animations: Isaac lifts an obstacle that was covery the camera with "Lift"
Isaac's runs after a djinn, trying to catch it.
Flint float's around Isaac before nestling in his scarf.


And here we are.
If I totally misunderstood how to do all of this, well...curses ! xD

Option 3: Non-Djinn Camp’s take on a Djinn mechanic

That's a little more in the realm of complexity I wanted, but it still... doesn't quite feel necessary, in my opinion. For the record, I honestly feel the same way about a lot of the unique character mechanics in Smash. I think a lot of them aren't necessary, and in a lot of cases are just sort of made up or only vaguely based on the source material.

Actually, okay. Let me give a counterproposal. But before I do, let me just say that I'm not retracting my earlier statement that Isaac should be a relatively gimmickless character. But I do see the logic behind giving him a Djinn system. However, if we are going to give him a gimmick, it needs to accurately reflect the way battles work in the source material. So, with that in mind, here's a different take on a Djinn system for Isaac.

Just like I did with gimmickless Isaac, I'll begin by outlining the traits I would want to highlight about the Djinn system. Keep in mind I am unfamiliar with Golden Sun, and am basing this off of reading the wiki.

• Djinn are equippables that come in all four elements. When you go into a battle, your characters already have Djinn equipped. They don't change which Djinn are equipped mid-fight, so I really don't think this should be a mechanic based around switching between Djinn.
• Players will typically start a fight with a majority of their Djinn - if not all of them - set. Set Djinn can be unleashed to perform a move unique to that particular Djinni.
• Once unleashed, a Djinn enters standby mode. Djinn on standby can't be unleashed anymore. You can re-set one Djinni on standby at the cost of your turn.
• If you have enough standby Djinn of the correct elements, you can use them to perform a summon, an extremely powerful attack. After being used for a summon, Djinn enter recovery mode, effectively being on cooldown. After a short amount of time, one Djinni in recovery mode will automatically re-set itself, and can then be unleashed once more.

So with that in mind, if we're giving Isaac a unique mechanic focused around Djinn - which I will reiterate we don't necessarily have to do - here's a general outline of the concept I think would be best:

Each of Isaac's specials is tied to Djinn of a certain element. His neutral special uses Venus (earth) Djinn, his side special uses Mars (fire) Djinn, his up special use Jupiter (wind) Djinn, and his down special uses Mercury (water) Djinn.

When you use a special, you unleash a Djinn of that element. Once you do, that Djinn goes into standby, and is pictured above Isaac's damage meter. Then, you'll unleash a different Djinn of the same element the next time you use the special. The effect will be fairly similar, though there may be slight differences. Alternatively, you could have a setup like Dancing Blade or Octaslash, where there are multiple variants of each special that use different Djinn. You would lose access to those options as you unleash them.

In any case, if you try to perform a special while all Djinn of that element are on standby, you'll perform a summon. I'll admit that I'm unsure how this would be done in the option-loss variant of this mechanic. In any case, summons are powerful attacks that are nonetheless quite risky, as they leave you significantly open to attack at the beginning and/or end of the summon as a representation of recovery mode. Alternatively, there could be a more traditional cooldown after performing a summon, during which time that special button does nothing at all.

However, if you've used all your Jupiter Djinn, you aren't locked into performing a risky summon just to get back onstage. At least, not if you play your cards right. Your shield special is a less risky option that will re-set all the Djinn currently on standby. This, of course, means that you lose out on the Summon, but on the flipside, you don't have to take the risk.

Let's walk through a couple examples of using Isaac's neutral special, for a couple of possible variants. Keep in mind we could mix and match the traits of these.

• Hitting the neutral special once unleashes Flint with a sort of earthy sword attack. Hit it again, and it unleashes Echo, with another earthy sword attack. Hit it again, and it unleashes Sap, which is another earthy sword attack but this time having a kind of draining effect. One more time unleashes Steel, which is basically the same as Sap. Then, finally, pressing B again uses Judgement, an attack with a couple seconds of endlag where a knight dude shoots a beam out of a lion shield.
• The neutral special is chargeable similarly to Gigaflare. Depending on the level of charge, you'll use Flint, Echo, or Geode; who are all different flavors of earthy sword attack. One you use one, you lose access to it. After you use all three, the only thing you can do with neutral-B is summon Cybele, after which all your Venus Djinn will be on cooldown and unusable for a while.

I would like to make this a community effort on deciding which path to take so please ineiciate which one you prefer: Option 1, 2, or 3

In addition, I want to ask these questions:

1. Would it be possible to have the Venus Psyenergy as a default but be able to equip another Psyenergy after fulfilling a certain criteria such as dealing high amounts of damage, getting damaged in return, shielding often, etc? This could reflect how players have to “earn” Djinn they encountered or they had to find them.
2. What if the player could cycle between a Djinn using the neutral special and then set it which remains in effect until they are KO’d? They can then reset it? Charging up the special will unleash different attacks and fully charging it up will summon a creature?
3. How do you guys feel about a Matthew alternate costume for 7-8 or 5-8?
4. What sword would Isaac use?

 

[Kalaam]

Well, obviously I would vote for a variation of my system, maybe not with all the specials changing, but at least the djinns to use with neutral B. So Option 2.

For the other questions:
1- It would take too much control out of the player's hand. If your opponent doesn't play a certain way it can make it harder if not impossible to get the djinns you want. This is too frustrating.

2- Cycling and selecting djinns with a single special (neutral) could clearly work, not sure making it a "chargeable" attack is very interresting though. Djinns are more than just an attack, they have lots of different properties. It would feel like a dublicate of Sephiroth Flare, Hero's Flame and Robin's Thoron. Having a wheel to select what djinn you want then tapping to use it would work better, imo.

3- I'd take it, I would prefer Felix or Adult Isaac buy Matthew is nice too.

4- That's a debate all in itself. Isaac does not have a designated sword that is very iconic. There is the Gaia/Sol Blade sure but their designs come from Dark Dawn (in which the Sol Blade is actually far more tied to Matthew by being a quest item). I'd say to rework the design of his basic sword to make it a bit fancier so it doesn't feel too bland, maybe taking some inspiration of the Gaia ou Sol blade, or his default Greatsword in Dark Dawn. But unless the weapon's special properties are part of his moveset, making it a "normal" sword works best imo. Maybe just making it a bit bigger/longer than on his normal artwork (since it seems he prefers longswords, given that in both instances where the game "gives" you an Isaac (TLA reunion and DD introduction) he uses the normal Greatsword.

 

[Perkilator]

I don’t mean to sound demanding, but…I don’t think I’ve seen too many people post a Classic Mode route along with their movesets?

 

[Kalaam]

I don’t mean to sound demanding, but…I don’t think I’ve seen too many people post a Classic Mode route along with their movesets?

I think the classic mode is meant to be explored later. I misunderstood and posted everything in one post like an idiot lol.