Super Smash Bros. Infinite Project (Finally Finished!???)

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

You mean as alts for each other?

We can cross that bridge when it comes. Alts, Mythra/Pyra option, Pokemon Trainer option, something else.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Both but Andy is Sami’s Side B to represent Infantry units.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Both but Andy is Sami’s Side B to represent Infantry units.

You're trying to provoke me now, right?

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

Same Both. I don't care how it would go.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

You're trying to provoke me now, right?

I’m trying to provoke everyone (in a discussion/thought-provoking way), but it’d be a Side B on a full set. Not exactly a high-concept summoner.

 

[ivanlerma]

You know if we're adding a fps character with an advance wars character in the roster, wouldn't it make sense for them to maybe summon soldiers, tanks, or spawn healing containers. while the fps shooter uses something else based on their moveset.

Say Doomslayer gets added, he would play with his different variety of guns alongside his sword, he would be all about guns while andy/sami would work like soldiers using different weapons in their own fashion or call supporting allies in battle.

This isn't something i'm sure of, but wanted to bring out my idea.

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

You know if we're adding a fps character with an advance wars character in the roster, wouldn't it make sense for them to maybe summon soldiers, tanks, or spawn healing containers. while the fps shooter uses something else based on their moveset.

Say Doomslayer gets added, he would play with his different variety of guns alongside his sword, he would be all about guns while andy/sami would work like soldiers using different weapons in their own fashion or call supporting allies in battle.

This isn't something i'm sure of, but wanted to bring out my idea.

Good one, we really need more FPS reps in Smash, even if it's Advance Wars!

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Say Doomslayer gets added, he would play with his different variety of guns alongside his sword, he would be all about guns while andy/sami would work like soldiers using different weapons in their own fashion or call supporting allies in battle.

You aren't solving any problems here, summoners are what we're trying to avoid regardless of character.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

You aren't solving any problems here, summoners are what we're trying to avoid regardless of character.

Man, I don't wanna be rude, but the only one really striving to avoid a "summoner" is you.

 

[Mamboo07]

What's all this talk about gimmicks and summoning?

 

[Mushroomguy12]

You aren't solving any problems here, summoners are what we're trying to avoid regardless of character.

Speak for yourself mate.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Speak for yourself mate.

OK, maybe "we're" was too general, but I'm certainly not the only one opposing summons here.

 

[Janx_uwu]

What's all this talk about gimmicks and summoning?

Two of our more recent characters (Eggman and Crazy Dave) had summoning-focused movesets that had them take an element from their games and have it be a part of their moveset that acted independently of them. Some people are saying that's what we should do for Sami/Andy, while others think we shouldn't as we just had two summoner characters in a row.
Then there's the broader "gimmick" discussion, saying we should not have any kind of overall element for Sami/Andy that is somewhat unique to them and is what their gameplay is focused around (a la Arsene, Pokemon Switch, Super Specials, auto turnaround, etc)

Personally I think we should stray away from summoners for a bit, just like many of us would have liked to stray away from mech characters after Eggman and Octavio-though I wouldn't mind the AW rep just having a gimmick in general. Giving them unique moves without making them central parts of the character is my ideal AW moveset-or as Addy put it, "Gun Byleth".

 

[Speed Weed]

Man, I don't wanna be rude, but the only one really striving to avoid a "summoner" is you.

I mean I'd rather we not do a summoner either

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Our last two characters (Eggman and Crazy Dave) had summoning-focused movesets that had them take an element from their games and have it be a part of their moveset that acted independently of them.

Those.... weren't our last two characters.

 

[Janx_uwu]

Those.... weren't our last two characters.

(But yes, you are correct and I will edit the post to reflect that.)

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

The problem with the argument against making an AW rep a summoner is Advance Wars’ gameplay. You aren’t a Rambo character you’re a General Patton. If we were talking Battalion Wars instead then sure we can make a run and gun soldier like character. But AW is turn based strategy where you fight through your military units. I don’t think any CO fires a weapon themselves

Ps - if I’m allowed to be a Nintendo snob - Advance Wars outranks all 3rd party characters, so saying eggman and Dave(?!) are summoners really doesn’t do much to sway my opinion. Sorry

 

[GolisoPower]

Honestly, a character can have the same gimmick as another so long as it's distinct enough between characters.

Like with Eggman and Crazy Dave. Eggman can have up to 6 robots out and often uses them to fight his battles like a warlord conquering the world, while Crazy Dave has a multitude of plants to pick from, but can only have 3 out at a time based on the category of plant, and he even is capable of fighting without them!

Or if we're going to go with characters already in Smash, then let's look at Ryu and Kazuya. They're both fighting game characters with complex inputs, but where Ryu has a different attack based on how long you hold the button and how close you are to your opponent, Kazuya has diagonal tilts and only a single FGC input to emulate the Tekken playstyle.

So again, we could get away with it if we make it different enough from what already exists.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

The problem with the argument against making an AW rep a summoner is Advance Wars’ gameplay. You aren’t a Rambo character you’re a General Patton. If we were talking Battalion Wars instead then sure we can make a run and gun soldier like character. But AW is turn based strategy where you fight through your military units. I don’t think any CO fires a weapon themselves

Well, we can just composite that in. Almost everything Fox does in Smash is original, same goes for a majority of Smash 64 and quite a few from Melee. Hell, Ness mostly uses moves from Paula and Poo so there is prescedent.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Ok everyone, here’s our Advanced Wars roadmap!

By tonight, we will be deciding who to go with. The top voted Character, plus Both within 6 hours wins.

After that, we will be doing Gameplay Submissions. You want our character to be a run and gunner without gimmicks? Submit it. You want the character to be a gimmick machine? Submit it. That being said, as some people pointed out, we will be avoiding an out-right summoner who calls forth a helper who does some action or something and then returns. Considering we have Dr. Eggman and Howard (to an extent) along with Crazy Dave in a way who does just that. If you want to make a summoner gameplay submission, the submission must use a summoning mechanic that feels, looks, and acts different than Dr. Eggman, Howard, and Crazy Dave.

We will the for which gameplay submission to go with (tomorrow)

Once we get a winner, we will then do our typical moveset submission period based on the winning gameplay submission.

I’m sorry I’m not coherent but I more or less I woke up at 3 am, taught eight classes today, and haven’t eaten anything since yesterday so I’m a bit cranky and loopy.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Well, we can just composite that in. Almost everything Fox does in Smash is original, same goes for a majority of Smash 64 and quite a few from Melee. Hell, Ness mostly uses moves from Paula and Poo so there is prescedent.

Now that is a better argument than - “we already have other summoners” - and is something we can build upon.

 

[Janx_uwu]

The problem with the argument against making an AW rep a summoner is Advance Wars’ gameplay. You aren’t a Rambo character you’re a General Patton. If we were talking Battalion Wars instead then sure we can make a run and gun soldier like character. But AW is turn based strategy where you fight through your military units. I don’t think any CO fires a weapon themselves

Ps - if I’m allowed to be a Nintendo snob - Advance Wars outranks all 3rd party characters, so saying eggman and Dave(?!) are summoners really doesn’t do much to sway my opinion. Sorry

I don't think CO's not firing weapons doesn't really matter, though. Because there are plenty of things in Smash like that, that just don't make sense-listen to any Earthbound/Mother fan for a few minutes and they'll let you know how Ness' moveset is far from 100% canon. Plus, Sami fires a weapon on one of the most popular Advance Wars cover arts, so there's precedent for her taking initiative on the front lines of the battlefield.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Then why don’t we combine these? Standard attacks and special moves can be run and gun weapon attacks. And charged smash attacks result in a quick appearance of a tank behind the fighter firing left/right, mortars launching up, and bombs dropping down. It “summons” the war machines for a second tops and doesn’t require any crazy mechanics to employ. That way Andy/Sami still call in their units but are also a combatant themselves

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Then why don’t we combine these? Standard attacks and special moves can be run and gun weapon attacks. And charged smash attacks result in a quick appearance of a tank shins the fighter firing left/right, mortars launching up, and bombs dropping down. It “summons” the war machines for a second tops and doesn’t require any crazy mechanics to employ. That way Andy/Sami still call in their units but are also a combatant themselves

I'm open to this. If summoning is just an aesthetic thing it's cool.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Allow me to apologize right now - I sorta was always leaning this way and was confused as to why we were arguing. In hindsight I now see the concern was literally deploying tanks on the stage. That’s my bad.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I do want to ask, and I feel like I’m beating a dead horse, but is there any interest or value of adding CO Skills to the moveset? Again, I don’t even play the games, but even I know it’s an integral part of the character. Leaving them out is like not including Copy Ability, Monado Arts, Mining, Switching Arms, etc. They are core mechanics to the character’s source and CO Skills are core mechanics to AW. I feel leaving those out for the sake of a more simplistic moveset is Highway robbery. Especially given what it could bring to the character.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I do want to ask, and I feel like I’m beating a dead horse, but is there any interest or value of adding CO Skills to the moveset? Again, I don’t even play the games, but even I know it’s an integral part of the character. Leaving them out is like not including Copy Ability, Monado Arts, Mining, Switching Arms, etc. They are core mechanics to the character’s source and CO Skills are core mechanics to AW. I feel leaving those out for the sake of a more simplistic moveset is Highway robbery. Especially given what it could bring to the character.

I’ve looked them up, but it seems like they are explicitly tied to any “units” summoned on the field. Not sure how to incorporate them if there’s a mandate against the units that effects them in the first place.

If we’re going for a Fox-like amalgamation, one can be a special. Sami’s CO Skill is Double Time, which increases movement of a given unit. A mobility-based Side B could be a cool way to implement that

 

[Janx_uwu]

Then why don’t we combine these? Standard attacks and special moves can be run and gun weapon attacks. And charged smash attacks result in a quick appearance of a tank shins the fighter firing left/right, mortars launching up, and bombs dropping down. It “summons” the war machines for a second tops and doesn’t require any crazy mechanics to employ. That way Andy/Sami still call in their units but are also a combatant themselves

Agreed! Maybe if a certain button is held during/after the smash attack, the tank would stick around and deal damage, but not for very long at all. Like Bayonetta's thing where you can hold the button to fire guns. In this case though, it summons tanks for a short amount of time and only applies to smashes, maybe a few other moves as well.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

“Double Time: Sami's soldier units get one extra movement space and their movement is unhindered by terrain. Standard CO Power boost for all units.”

Mobility Side B? Mobility Side B to me.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

My feeling is that while it would traditionally be applied to an unit, perhaps it could work if applied to Sami herself. Even more compelling, what if she could access multiple CO Powers from other ones…like she herself was an Unit. It’s not SUPER interesting but at least we are giving a core game mechanic justice by adding that in.

Speed increase via herself
Healing Power from Andy
Damage Output from Max
Chance of a Critical Hit Increase from Nell
Jump And Air Speed Increase from Eagle

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I do want to ask, and I feel like I’m beating a dead horse, but is there any interest or value of adding CO Skills to the moveset? Again, I don’t even play the games, but even I know it’s an integral part of the character. Leaving them out is like not including Copy Ability, Monado Arts, Mining, Switching Arms, etc. They are core mechanics to the character’s source and CO Skills are core mechanics to AW. I feel leaving those out for the sake of a more simplistic moveset is Highway robbery. Especially given what it could bring to the character.

I feel another military fighter is unique enough on it's own. (yes, even with Snake around)

 

[WeirdChillFever]

My feeling is that while it would traditionally be applied to an unit, perhaps it could work if applied to Sami herself. Even more compelling, what if she could access multiple CO Powers from other ones…like she herself was an Unit. It’s not SUPER interesting but at least we are giving a core game mechanic justice by adding that in.

Lest we go down the rabbit hole of giving Sami all sorts of buffs, I could definitely see a special where Sami speeds up in a horizontal line while firing her current weapon in a faster and stronger manner. Such a burst movement option would be dangerous if overextended (don’t go beyond enemy lines), but at the right time the better/faster/stronger/harder firepower could come in handy. No fuss, just strategy without going into sparkly Hero oomph territory

 

[Janx_uwu]

My feeling is that while it would traditionally be applied to an unit, perhaps it could work if applied to Sami herself. Even more compelling, what if she could access multiple CO Powers from other ones…like she herself was an Unit. It’s not SUPER interesting but at least we are giving a core game mechanic justice by adding that in.

Speed increase via herself
Healing Power from Andy
Damage Output from Max
Chance of a Critical Hit Increase from Nell
Jump And Air Speed Increase from Eagle

Under other circumstances I wouldn’t mind this one, but Stylist has a gimmick very similar to this already.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Lest we go down the rabbit hole of giving Sami all sorts of buffs, I could definitely see a special where Sami speeds up in a horizontal line while firing her current weapon in a faster and stronger manner. Such a burst movement option would be dangerous if overextended (don’t go beyond enemy lines), but at the right time the better/faster/stronger/harder firepower could come in handy. No fuss, just strategy without going into sparkly Hero oomph territory

Agreed. There’s much to risk in war so that could be one way to look at it. That is one possible way we could look into putting forth submissions is going from a “Smash is war”. How would a character, a seasoned veteran, act behind enemy lines in the heat of battle? In my opinion, she is different in Snake. Snake fights from the shadows and works in the areas of espionage historically. Sami only knows full out scorched earth war. Why wouldn’t someone with just military expertise and assists use them; even subtly.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Agreed. There’s much to risk in war so that could be one way to look at it. That is one possible way we could look into putting forth submissions is going from a “Smash is war”. How would a character, a seasoned veteran, act behind enemy lines in the heat of battle? In my opinion, she is different in Snake. Snake fights from the shadows and works in the areas of espionage historically. Sami only knows full out scorched earth war. Why wouldn’t someone with just military expertise and assists use them; even subtly.

Stage control would play a big role. Pushing the front-line, mobility in enemy territory vs a full-frontal assault etc.I like the challenge of that aspect of stage control being conveyed in simpler and subtler ways than “yeah heres ten tanks have fun”.

 

[GolisoPower]

Here's an interesting idea:

Sami will normally use Infantry and soldiers and the like for her tilts and basic attacks, almost like HYRULESHERO presents, but somehow, in some way, she can tap into Andy's CO power and the soldier attacks become vehicle attacks? I don't imagine this to be something for comebacks, but rather something that contributes to a snowball effect that actually rewards you for doing good. The vehicles would be the Pyra to a soldier's Mythra, to put it to perspective.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Stage control would play a big role. Pushing the front-line, mobility in enemy territory vs a full-frontal assault etc.I like the challenge of that aspect of stage control being conveyed in simpler and subtler ways than “yeah heres ten tanks have fun”.

I like the idea of the stage control aspect.

Ultimately though, I go by the will of the thread. My opinion doesn’t matter much in matters regarding to this. What interests me is what path the thread takes to reach it and the end result. If I was to go by my wants and desires for this thread, the roster would look and play very differently but that goes against the nature of this thread - a joint community project. I’ve always maintained the position that this is the community’s game and I hope I never strayed from that goal. I’m here to provide direction, meaning, and value in order to create a product we are all proud and happy with to some extent. All the work that goes into this game is by everyone in the thread - discussion, submission, and voting. I’ll be honest, I did not have a game plan down when I started it and largely had no idea what I was getting myself into. It was actually on a whim as I was bored and wanted an outlet for creativity instead of writing articles on possible newcomers. This was that outlet and something I was half-invested in became into a project this big that branched out to other threads. For that, I’m beyond grateful to make such an impact. That wouldn’t of happened without the work and support of everyone here. I value everyone’s input just as much as the other and I, while I don’t often do it, I feel very lucky to have had a hand in working with everyone.

I didn’t mean to take my post to where it went but it did. Thank you everyone from the bottom of my heart for making Infinite what it is today

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I like the idea of the stage control aspect.

Ultimately though, I go by the will of the thread. My opinion doesn’t matter much in matters regarding to this. What interests me is what path the thread takes to reach it and the end result. If I was to go by my wants and desires for this thread, the roster would look and play very differently but that goes against the nature of this thread - a joint community project. I’ve always maintained the position that this is the community’s game and I hope I never strayed from that goal. I’m here to provide direction, meaning, and value in order to create a product we are all proud and happy with to some extent. All the work that goes into this game is by everyone in the thread - discussion, submission, and voting. I’ll be honest, I did not have a game plan down when I started it and largely had no idea what I was getting myself into. It was actually on a whim as I was bored and wanted an outlet for creativity instead of writing articles on possible newcomers. This was that outlet and something I was half-invested in became into a project this big that branched out to other threads. For that, I’m beyond grateful to make such an impact. That wouldn’t of happened without the work and support of everyone here. I value everyone’s input just as much as the other and I, while I don’t often do it, I feel very lucky to have had a hand in working with everyone.

I didn’t mean to take my post to where it went but it did. Thank you everyone from the bottom of my heart for making Infinite what it is today

Thank you! I wish I participated here sooner, it’s a lot of fun and I love critically thinking about how movesets work and how they can convey a character and Infinite definitely allows me to do so.

 

[GolisoPower]

I like the idea of the stage control aspect.

Ultimately though, I go by the will of the thread. My opinion doesn’t matter much in matters regarding to this. What interests me is what path the thread takes to reach it and the end result. If I was to go by my wants and desires for this thread, the roster would look and play very differently but that goes against the nature of this thread - a joint community project. I’ve always maintained the position that this is the community’s game and I hope I never strayed from that goal. I’m here to provide direction, meaning, and value in order to create a product we are all proud and happy with to some extent. All the work that goes into this game is by everyone in the thread - discussion, submission, and voting. I’ll be honest, I did not have a game plan down when I started it and largely had no idea what I was getting myself into. It was actually on a whim as I was bored and wanted an outlet for creativity instead of writing articles on possible newcomers. This was that outlet and something I was half-invested in became into a project this big that branched out to other threads. For that, I’m beyond grateful to make such an impact. That wouldn’t of happened without the work and support of everyone here. I value everyone’s input just as much as the other and I, while I don’t often do it, I feel very lucky to have had a hand in working with everyone.

I didn’t mean to take my post to where it went but it did. Thank you everyone from the bottom of my heart for making Infinite what it is today

Dude, I may not have been here for as long as anybody else on this thread, but goddamn, if being able to contribute ain't fun to do! The fact that so many minds can contribute in a sort of "creativity trade" and then make something concrete out of it puts a damn smile on my face, to be honest.

 

[Janx_uwu]

This thread came at a time when I was hitting a writer's block thanks to quarantine, and this let me outpour a lot of my creative juices into things I truly care about. That's awesome.
But I do have to say, it's very good at distracting me. I've been home for two hours and just now finished my half hour of homework thanks to the summoning debate-gosh dang it!