Social Stuff that ends in fair..... A Sheik Social Thread!

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik is so good it's stupid.

 

[Krynxe]

I know Sheik's weakness

Admit defeat now.

 

[Teczer0]

I know Sheik's weakness

Admit defeat now.

omg

The pressure. What do I do?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Like hell if I know. I'm working on a Young Link as we speak.

 

[Teczer0]

Dude, Dave I wanna do that too.

 

[Krynxe]

No wait don't do that

That's a terrible idea

;__;

 

[Teczer0]

It can't be harder than trying to learn climbers =3

 

[unknown522]

Everyone should just go fox vs that stupid balloon

And yeah, copping out to sheik vs samus/peach all day. I may have lost my first loser's set at apex if I didn't use her

 

[soap]

sheik till the death of me

 

[bubbaking]

How do the ICs do against Jiggs?

 

[Tekk]

Really good according to choknater
but I still think it's even/slightly in puff's favor

 

[stelzig]

ICs are good against puff imo. Even moreso when wobbling isn't banned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpTCukW1I1I#t=3m10s hurrrr.

 

[bubbaking]

Why don't ICs beat everyone if Wobbling isn't banned?

 

[Tekk]

Because some characters are really good at not getting grabbed.

 

[stelzig]

And some characters are really good at disposing nana early as well. And while she isn't dead, she still has to be next/close to popo when he gets the grab in the first place.

Wobbling is really good, but it doesn't make ice climbers unbeatable by any means. Not for sheik either. It seems like alot of people, who never played against it, assume that wobbling just makes the character unbeatable.

 

[Krynxe]

Yeah, Oskar could have done a much better job of staying safe from Tomber's ICs. With puff, it isn't terribly difficult to separate them with patience, and if you keep up your momentum it's hard for the other player to reunite and be back on the offensive. Just don't get too greedy while the ICs are together - this applies for any character.

 

[Beat!]

Why don't ICs beat everyone if Wobbling isn't banned?

Because Wobbling isn't broken... ?

 

[bubbaking]

Because Wobbling isn't broken... ?

Tekk's answer made much more sense. Wobbling is completely broken.

 

[stelzig]

It really isn't. It is, however, very annoying.

 

[Jolteon]

Tekk's answer made much more sense. Wobbling is completely broken.

Which is why ICs beat everyone, right?

 

[Crooked Crow]

I don't think Sheik vs. Jigglypuff is that bad.

Screw Ice Climbers though. I'm always going Samus against them.

 

[bubbaking]

It really isn't. It is, however, very annoying.

IMO, if something equates to a free stock once it's pulled off, then it's broken. Same for Jigg's rest on a bunch of chars.

Which is why ICs beat everyone, right?

Hey, I was just asking a Q and that Q was answered. All I said was that wobbling was broken. I did not say that this broken tech made ICs beat everyone. As Tekk said, some chars do well at not getting grabbed.

I don't think Sheik vs. Jigglypuff is that bad.

Screw Ice Climbers though. I'm always going Samus against them.

Same here! I prefer Samus over Sheik vs the ICs.

 

[stelzig]

It's a bit iffy to say that it just equals a stock when pulling it off. As I told you, you have to have nana close to you and it is very avoidable. I guess all these throw combos at KO percent that characters have are broken too. Especially that uthrow > rest that jiggs has. Sure people can DI the uthrow if they react or are prepared, but once it is pulled off, it equates to a "free stock".

That utilt from ganon and roy's charge B is also totally broken. Don't care how avoidable these moves are, once they are pulled off they equal death. Wobbling may be slightly easier to set up (aka, it is actually useful), but by your definition, these moves are just as "broken".

Edit: Tbh, the single climber chaingrab actually probably bothers me more as sheik, lol. That chaingrab also making it easier to get the wobble because you can use it until nana is ready to set it up =L

 

[Jolteon]

IMO, if something equates to a free stock once it's pulled off, then it's broken. Same for Jigg's rest on a bunch of chars.



Hey, I was just asking a Q and that Q was answered. All I said was that wobbling was broken. I did not say that this broken tech made ICs beat everyone. As Tekk said, some chars do well at not getting grabbed.



Same here! I prefer Samus over Sheik vs the ICs.

Beat's answer is better.

 

[Beat!]

bubbaking, you have no idea what "completely broken" means. Something being broken means that it breaks the game, that it's (almost) unbeatable and makes pretty much everyone else unviable. If you think this is the case with wobbling then you're not following the competitive scene.

There are tons of stuff in this game that equate a free stock once you pull it off, and a lot of them are much easier to pull off than wobbling (not to mention that they are accessible to better characters), because landing a grab with ICs isn't exactly super easy.

If wobbling actually was broken, then ICs would be beating everyone else. That's the definution of the word.

So, as I said, ICs don't automatically win wobbling-legal tournaments, because wobbling isn't broken.

 

[unknown522]

just go fox vs ICs

 

[stelzig]

I love playing fox against ICs. Even though my fox is awful and inconsistent. Don't understand how some people can find this matchup troublesome for fox... Like I think fox might even be the best against ICs. :D

 

[Krynxe]

I remember hearing somewhere - I think somewhere in commentary - that wobbling shouldn't be looked at as a broken strategy but rather a gimp. Similar to resting resting and shine spikes, it's just a tool that helps ICs game significantly.

 

[The Good Doctor]

I remember hearing somewhere - I think somewhere in commentary - that wobbling shouldn't be looked at as a broken strategy but rather a gimp. Similar to resting resting and shine spikes, it's just a tool that helps ICs game significantly.

the problem with that is that it's out of a grab. They happen a little too often...

 

[KirbyKaze]

Gimping with every character but Jigglypuff (kind of) is done near the edge. And it requires a few things to go well for the gimping character in order for it to work (usually 2, sometimes more). Even then, a lot of (non-Sheik) gimping strategies are subject to teching and 50/50s and other nonsense. Cactuar has SDI'd my shine spike in a Fox ditto hard enough to be able to land onstage after. Granted, I could just keep shining him or switch to a different strategy, but people greatly underrate the way the gimpee can interact with the gimper; SDI is a lot more powerful than people realize.

Wobbling skips all of this. You can "think" of it as a gimp if it makes it seem less ridiculous, if you want. That said, it breaks a lot of common similarities shared by virtually every style of gimp.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Its not much different from a rest though

 

[Krynxe]

the problem with that is that it's out of a grab. They happen a little too often...

Uthrow rest is out of a grab. Jman's bthrow shine gimp crap is out of a grab. Most of the high tiers have some ridiculous chain/combo/gimp they can easily abuse from a grab, or other reoccurring moves. I understand most of these tactics don't go as far as taking a whole individual stock, and despite them often not being guaranteed, they still have their major effect in any match and occur far more frequently than wobbling.

wobbling is pretty opportunistic and isn't as easy as simply landing a grab - which is already very hard to do as ICs considering your opponent is usually trying their best not to get grabbed. I just don't think wobbling should be looked at as something terribly broken as people consider it - I'm not saying it should be classified as a gimp, that's just a different perspective of it that I thought was interesting. ICs have proven to be very viable in top level play without their wobble, it just greatly helps them be almost on par with the top tiers.

These are, of course, opinions. And this discussion should probably resume in the ICs boards.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Uthrow rest is out of a grab. Jman's bthrow shine gimp crap is out of a grab. Most of the high tiers have some ridiculous chain/combo/gimp they can easily abuse from a grab, or other reoccurring moves. I understand most of these tactics don't go as far as taking a whole individual stock, and despite them often not being guaranteed, they still have their major effect in any match and occur far more frequently than wobbling.

wobbling is pretty opportunistic and isn't as easy as simply landing a grab - which is already very hard to do as ICs considering your opponent is usually trying their best not to get grabbed. I just don't think wobbling should be looked at as something terribly broken as people consider it - I'm not saying it should be classified as a gimp, that's just a different perspective of it that I thought was interesting. ICs have proven to be very viable in top level play without their wobble, it just greatly helps them be almost on par with the top tiers.

These are, of course, opinions. And this discussion should probably resume in the ICs boards.

which are subject to DI and reaction, not just I grab you and you die. Also it's at any percentage, while every other gimp is to my knowledge.
Since when do we have to talk about Sheik, I was under the impression this was a social thread for sheik mains to talk?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Its not much different from a rest though

Rest has more conditional requirements and runs a big risk for missing. Jigglypuff also sucks at tech chasing relative to ICs. I used to feel similarly about the rest-wobble comparison; then I realized Puff has more limitations than that. You can't fish for Rests constantly with Puff unless you're fighting Peach or Sheik.

There's more stuff, but that should be enough.

Uthrow rest is out of a grab. Jman's bthrow shine gimp crap is out of a grab. Most of the high tiers have some ridiculous chain/combo/gimp they can easily abuse from a grab, or other reoccurring moves. I understand most of these tactics don't go as far as taking a whole individual stock, and despite them often not being guaranteed, they still have their major effect in any match and occur far more frequently than wobbling.

Up throw rest works on 2 characters, can be DIed, can't be done if you're on last stock at KO percent (and often isn't worth it even if it's not your last stock), requires precise jump timings at higher percents, can be interfered with by platforms, etc.

B-throw shine only works at the edge. And requires a guess or very precise reaction to work. And so forth.

CGs, combos, and whatever else you're talking about that occurs predominantly onstage are affected by platforms, DI, and various situational factors that occur on the stage (shy guys, wispy sometimes, etc). There's a lot of little things to consider; these can affect outcomes very heavily. Wobbling skips all of this. Gimps run into the same issues that I already outlined.

I don't really like the argument, "It doesn't happen that much in practice." Mostly because there are barely any tournaments that have Wobbles at it and wobbling legal simultaneously (since Fly doesn't wobble because he's bad at it and Chu refuses to do it unless he's losing). There are also extremely few ICs players anyway. In a similar vein, I don't think b-throw shines or up throw rests really happen all that much either at top level play. Largely because of the limitations I outlined.



Whether you find wobbling ultimately broken or not is your own discretion. However, I want you to realize that it removes all the options the defending player has during a combo (and there are many) and similar situations. It can occur virtually anywhere on the stage and will result in a stock guaranteed. There are no drawbacks for going for a wobble once you have a grab and it's much, much safer to whiff grab than the closest alternative in terms of on-hit simplicity and power (Puff's rest).

For all these reasons, no, you really can't compare it to anything else in the game (without it seeming much better, anyway). It's very unique for a lot of reasons.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Rest has more conditional requirements and runs a big risk for missing. Jigglypuff also sucks at tech chasing relative to ICs. I used to feel similarly about the rest-wobble comparison; then I realized Puff has more limitations than that. You can't fish for Rests constantly with Puff unless you're fighting Peach or Sheik.

There's more stuff, but that should be enough.


Up throw rest works on 2 characters, can be DIed, can't be done if you're on last stock at KO percent (and often isn't worth it even if it's not your last stock), requires precise jump timings at higher percents, can be interfered with by platforms, etc.

B-throw shine only works at the edge. And requires a guess or very precise reaction to work. And so forth.

CGs, combos, and whatever else you're talking about that occurs predominantly onstage are affected by platforms, DI, and various situational factors that occur on the stage (shy guys, wispy sometimes, etc). There's a lot of little things to consider; these can affect outcomes very heavily. Wobbling skips all of this. Gimps run into the same issues that I already outlined.

I don't really like the argument, "It doesn't happen that much in practice." Mostly because there are barely any tournaments that have Wobbles at it and wobbling legal simultaneously (since Fly doesn't wobble because he's bad at it and Chu refuses to do it unless he's losing). There are also extremely few ICs players anyway. In a similar vein, I don't think b-throw shines or up throw rests really happen all that much either at top level play. Largely because of the limitations I outlined.



Whether you find wobbling ultimately broken or not is your own discretion. However, I want you to realize that it removes all the options the defending player has during a combo (and there are many) and similar situations. It can occur virtually anywhere on the stage and will result in a stock guaranteed. There are no drawbacks for going for a wobble once you have a grab and it's much, much safer to whiff grab than the closest alternative in terms of on-hit simplicity and power (Puff's rest).

For all these reasons, no, you really can't compare it to anything else in the game (without it seeming much better, anyway). It's very unique for a lot of reasons.

 

[unknown522]

Get em kk

 

[Krynxe]

My point only went as far as saying that characters have tactics they abuse throughout matches and wobbling is one of those tactics - but it's to such a degree that it may be considered a gimp rather than a standard tool because of how guaranteed it is when set up, but just like gimps are situational. But I'm not trying to classify wobbling either, it's just a perspective I thought was interesting. Sorry, I didn't do a good job wording my thoughts clearly. :|

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I agree with you KK

 

[KirbyKaze]

My point only went as far as saying that characters have tactics they abuse throughout matches and wobbling is one of those tactics - but it's to such a degree that it may be considered a gimp rather than a standard tool because of how guaranteed it is when set up, but just like gimps are situational. But I'm not trying to classify wobbling either, it's just a perspective I thought was interesting. Sorry, I didn't do a good job wording my thoughts clearly. :|

It's a standard tool with the power of a gimp and none of the work once you get the setup.

It's really more like the best of both worlds with none of the usual drawbacks. The only 'drawback' is Nana sometimes dying, but I look at ICs as a character that changes as the stock plays out so I don't really feel that's a real argument.

 

[Krynxe]

Yeah, I see your point there kk.

To clarify, I was never trying to defend nor complain about wobbling, just some thoughts.