Stuff About Puff

[Fortress | Sveet]

if she is air camping a lot, i would treat her like peach. Iirc, its good practice to hit them after they land with fsmash and basically punish them for throwing defensive moves. If you can get below her, spam that uair. Check out mango vs chu from (i think) pound 4.

 

[idea]

just do this lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCwhf4Q4X2Q&t=4m30s

 

[Binx]

Guess I should learn the wobble lol, I hate using that **** though

Watched some Chu and Fly matches as well. I still don't see any real openings vs Puff without guessing. I saw some really cool blind grab tricks though and if I learn to wobble and I guess right it will be a big deal. 2 hours of vs Comp practice here I come... sigh ^_^

 

[idea]

even without wobbling, grabs are good. they let you do some solid damage and...i guess claim whatever amount of control ics can really have in that matchup.

also that set was a while ago, but i remember his wavedashing being scary. he would just wavedash in and out to try to bait something, and occasionally he would throw out an fsmash or something.

 

[Mahone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szFTYa_ZSLM&feature=feedu

Me vs Makenshi loser bracket
I'm really proud of 3rd match, but if anyone notices some bad things I tend to frequently do, please tell me (and I did play like a ****ing moron at some moments lol).

EDIT: vs porc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1EJxafA3kI&feature=feedu

Makenshi vs Tekk

Game 1

:20- Not sure why you turned around to nair instead of just bairing
1:08- So at this point i've seent that your main problem is that you are always trying to put too much space inbetween you and marth. Like you are right outside of tipper spacing (where you want to be in this matchup imo) and then you roll back, or you do a bair and get stage control and then you run away a little. I find that being at a far spacing is bad against marth since it allows him to put the wall up. Just hang out right outside of tipper spacing and wait for him to wiff a move, then put the pressure on him and keep him in shield or in your bair range.
1:24- It looks like ur diing in or not diing at all, you want to start diing out when marth gets those inside fairs otherwise you will eat a ****load.
1:54- You got tippered, but even if you didn't, what would a reverse nair at zero do? Even if you weaved it out, nairs aren't too great against marth, but especially at low percents.
2:26- After the nair hit i don't know why you jumped after you got on stage, you could have at least tried for an fsmash or dsmash edgeguard
2:47- Again, really awkward reverse aerials when you could just bair or face forward and do fair or nair
2:52- Probably just a obv. mistake, but you should go for a really low bair there to edgeguard, as it turns out any bair would have done since he upbd so high above the ledge, but practice the low one to cover more, ive seen hbox hit some rediculous low bairs that you can BAIRly see come out but they hit really low, mabye even below stage idk
3:03- Can just upsmash oos, instead of wavedash out to upsmash
3:12- thats the kind of bair i was talking about 2 comments up, but in this situation i would of just spaced at max bair range and made it hard for him to get on stage instead of hard predicting

Don't get too anxious when he's on the ledge, marth doesn't have any really good ways on against jiggs so just be patient

Game 2

So after watching the first minute, the issue is that you are too aggressive against marth, he outranges you so you can't just keep rushing him down like you are doing... as i said above you have to stay outside of tipper spacing and poke at him... run up shield his stuff to punishes and basically just annoy him with pokes until he starts overextending, and then you can get pounds and rest and stuff

5:07- Thats like the 3rd time thats happened, don't try to fall into him with aerials from above, its not worth it... just land and start spacing horizontally again



Alright, so... When i started playing my main training partner was a marth main and we both sucked, but we could wavedash and lcancel and basic stuff... so all we played was marth jiggs and i hated it so much that i would usually just marth ditto him... then i got really serious about the game and met some people at my college to play with... and my main training partner is still a marth main... and not only that but possibly the campiest marth there is and he has more patience than any human being alive. So the point of me telling you this is that I have played marth jiggs so long that i would say that it’s the matchup that i probably understand the most in this game, which is why i decided to stop critiquing at game 2 because all of your problems go back to what i was saying earlier about being too aggressive, but really you just aren't playing the matchup correctly. Luckily for you, the marth you are playing is also playing it very poorly but that doesn't change the fact that he has a huge sword and seems like a good player in general so its still gonna be hard for you to approach... So what you really need to do is just play a marth a lot to learn the spacing, it doesn't have to be a good marth, just one that is competent because jiggs spacing vs marth is different than against every other character by a lot. You can't go for all these falling aerials, you can't approach with all these nairs and fairs. You really just have to do what i said and hang out right outside tipper range and safely poke at him and make sure to shield his attacks often while not lingering in shield. That sounds hard and it is, i have always thought that marth is one of jiggs worst matchups, but luckily most marths don't take the time to learn the matchup so its pretty easy.
Anyways, the point is that all of your problems are sort of general matchup issues and there isn’t too much specific stuff to nitpick at, you just have to work at your overall game vs marth by playing a marth for an extended period of time, and watching videos always help… I’m sure you’ve seen this one, but its pretty applicable to all the stuff I was saying so here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNCPGgZ_3ak

Damn, critiques sound so harsh... i feel like such an ******* lol.... it goes without saying that you did A LOT of stuff right and your overall play is really good, but ya... critiques are harsh by nature i guess

 

[Keblerelf]

Hey guys how does Ice Climbers beat jigglypuff, is there any special distances or guessing games that are really unfavorable for her in the matchup? I'm trying to become the best in Oregon and this is basically the only thing holding me back right now, I'm sure I would figure out the matchup eventually by watching vids and analyzing my own play but would be helpful to get good advice.

Fsmash is pretty good against jigglypuff.

 

[idea]

yeah lol, he would wavedash in and fsmash, and i'd be like "where did that come from?"

tekk, i didn't see that first match...uhh...you are trying to approach marth in the air too much. and it's easier to bair marth from a neutral position; fair can weirdly beat his moves, but you have to be a bit closer to him to use it that way, and if you're that close you're not really in a "neutral" position, more like a "slight pressure on marth" position.

i mean, look at that video pretending you're the marth player. every time jiggs jumps and is facing toward you, doesn't that seem like she's BEGGING you to fair her?

and again, wavedash for movement. shield is good against marth 'cause every time he jumps it's a (small) commitment. the obvious solution to jiggs shielding a lot is for marth to start to grab; but you can counter that too, with aerial spacing and crouch. marth can still grab you when you're crouching but he has to dash grab and kind of overshoot it; basically they have to know what they're doing and it's worth it even on experienced marth players to crouch often.

in short: work on your ground game. (good matches otherwise though)

also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szFTYa_ZSLM&t=2m26s
i don't know why, but this was an obvious roll for a marth, you shoulda rested him :D

edit: oh, and don't fall toward him so much. i know it's boring when you get hit up in the air and have to float down so slowly, but he's just waiting for you to come anywhere near him.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Ugh. Marth/Jiggs is brutal. I've never played it, but I've watched Mango/M2K, and just from thinking about the way Jiggs and Marth work, that MU seems really bad for Jiggs. Although some people say it's not that bad, since Jiggs has stuff once she's in, but...

It's so hard to get in.

 

[Keblerelf]

IMO in the marth/puff mu whoever has the most patience will win.

 

[idea]

meh...unknown says it's marth's favour...i say it's even. i used to say it's jiggs' favour by a little but now it seems even to me.

'cause like, at least jiggs can kill him and edgeguard him and stuff.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I say Luigi wins.

 

[Tekk]

Hey thanks once again guys!

@Mahone: yeah it doesn't feel great to find out I did a lot of things wrong, but I think it's a great way for me to remember there's still a long road to go before achieving my goal, and therefore to find motivation to play this game even more. =)

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

I know this has been brought up ten zillion times, but what are some good things to practice by yourself?

I plan to practice staying right outside of tipper range against CPU marth.... (but he almost always does neutral A/ftilt/dash grab which isn't a realistic representation of marth players

Also I plan to practice weaving my nairs

This could get really boring really fast, other ideas???

 

[ShroudedOne]

I guess you could practice aerial rest combos on neutral DI? Like, bair, uair, rest, or some of the other weird ones (though I don't know that there are many variations). Practice your autocancel nairs and bairs.

Uh...

Practice shffls, and...wavelands, I guess? And dair > grab...

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Yeah I recently practiced aerial -> rest combos with neutral di, but it kills me how its so easy against cpu's and the opportunities never (or rarely) pop up against good players. Then I try to read the aerial into rest but they end up escaping where I could have landed a few more aerials....

I def need practice with dair tho. thanks. And what do you mean by auto-cancel? I thought all of Jiggs aerials need L-canceled

 

[ShroudedOne]

Her bair and nair do not. If you short hop, and immediately do the aerial without fasfalling, they will autocancel. Try it out with nair first, just cause I think bair is a little harder (in my opinion).

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Oh yeah I know what you mean, I just thought the aerial frame data finished during the time of a sh without ff. So it actually cancels?

And any other advice for playing by yourself?

 

[Massive]

Nair auto cancels on frames <5 or >29.
Uair auto cancels on frames <8 or >37.
Bair auto cancels on frames <8 or >25.
Dair auto cancels on frames <4 or >39.
Fair auto cancels on frames <6 or >34.

Check out the framedata thread for more info.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Oh...well, never mind then.

 

[idea]

edgecancelling aerials. it's fun.

being able to do so has come up like...3 times...in friendlies...in about a year. but it's fun.

 

[idea]

HEY WHAT'S UP GUYS

i'm kind of slightly inebriated.

JIGGLYPUFF IS PRETTY STUPID. in case you hadn't noticed.

i mean she can kill you in one move, wtf is that

but i love her anyway <3

 

[genkaku]

HEY WHAT'S UP GUYS

i'm kind of slightly inebriated.

JIGGLYPUFF IS PRETTY STUPID. in case you hadn't noticed.

i mean she can kill you in one move, wtf is that

but i love her anyway <3

what other reasons are there to love her?

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Edge canceled bairs definitely seem useful as pressure for short characters on platforms (I have more trouble putting pressure on shorter characters that are grounded with my bairs)

And I still don't exactly understand what auto-canceling is.... I mean it seems simple.. there's no landing lag after an aerial. But really? IF you aerial within a few frames from hitting the ground (like <5 with nair), the hitbox still comes out and there is no lag? Even if the aerial hits or hits shield??

Also, I NEED MORE SOLO PRACTICE IDEAS.. Keep em comin. Get creative.

I have trouble DIing Falcons downthrow, so I may put him on level 9, stay in shield til he grabs, and hope for a downthrow to DI.....

Speaking of which How do you guys DI falcons downthrow? (Im gonna look it up anyway) How about dealing with him above you and throwing continuous dairs at your shield?

 

[ShroudedOne]

I prefer DI'ing it down and away, but I've heard recently that you have to mix it up, between high and low. I've also noticed that if you DI Falcon's down throw up and in at higher percents (say 6 and up) you kind of go too high to be hit by anything. Down and away is generally harder for them to chase, but keep them guessing.

 

[-LzR-]

I hear about edgecanceling a lot, but I don't know what it is, how to do it, how to practice it or how to use it. Anyone able to help?

 

[FoxLisk]

im pretty sure falcon can follow up on any DI (at least at reasonable percents), so all you can do is mix it up and hope for the best.

edgecancelling is when you land right next to the edge of a platform (or the main stage) with some momentum off the platform. you just sort of slip right off into your normal falling animation, so it can be used to remove lag from aerials and stuff. CF players have gotten very good at edgecancelling their up B, for another example.

how to do it: just like throw an aerial and then drift towards an edge. youll get it to work eventually.

 

[idea]

And I still don't exactly understand what auto-canceling is.... I mean it seems simple.. there's no landing lag after an aerial. But really? IF you aerial within a few frames from hitting the ground (like <5 with nair), the hitbox still comes out and there is no lag? Even if the aerial hits or hits shield??

Speaking of which How do you guys DI falcons downthrow? (Im gonna look it up anyway) How about dealing with him above you and throwing continuous dairs at your shield?

first part sounds wrong to me...

falcon's dthrow legit combos to knee for...a while. all the percents he needs it to, really. that's why...

I've heard recently that you have to mix it up, between high and low.

this. except

Down and away is generally harder for them to chase, but keep them guessing.

this i disagree with, below high percents. my falcon is terrible and i find this one easier for hitting jiggs. i know why, too--falcon does everything by running and jumping, and to knee jiggs with that DI, you don't have to think about it at all, you can just run and jump naturally and it will automatically put your knee in her face. if she DIs up, you have to pay a little more attention.

that said, it's not a big difference, especially for a falcon main. they can easily hit you with either DI. mixing it up is much more important.

if you think you can DI to a platform and tech, do that, above all else. at least then he has to follow you.

I hear about edgecanceling a lot, but I don't know what it is, how to do it, how to practice it or how to use it. Anyone able to help?

do an aerial as you slide over a ledge, either at the end of the stage or the end of a platform. the move will completely cancel out. if you do this so that the hitbox comes out before the move ends laglessly, there's an obvious advantage to that.

the problem is that 99% of any stage is not an edge of something so it's very situational. even more rare is a situation where you actually HAVE to do this and couldn't continue the combo/chase without it.

...but it's cool!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDNJv92TCjk&t=7m29s

 

[Tekk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKlPN65Y-84&feature=youtu.be&hd=1

@0:45

me ****ing gusta

 

[Massive]

A good Falcon will almost always hit dthrow > knee. It's probably the easiest thing in the world for them. Jigglypuff and Kirby are the only two characters who cannot DI away and air-dodge out of it.

Also 99% of the time you will not successfully tech on the platform before they knee you, don't go for it. The best way to avoid a knee is to train the falcon to react in a certain way to his dthrows. Predicting is far easier than reacting for a character as fast as falcon, and a lot of them (even pros) have bad habits about following their d-throws with common DI routines.

I can advise you to DI away if you're ever knocked off the side though. Dudes like Jace/Darkrain love to chase people to near-magnifier with knees/uairs. If you DI away you will almost always float out of range and have the option of gimping their recovery with pound/bair.

 

[-LzR-]

Thank you, now I know the knee is pretty much guaranteed on us.
Also thanks for the edgecanceling stuff, I will try to work for it.

 

[Keblerelf]

What do you guys usually ban against falco?

I usually ban PS, but I'm thinking about banning YS instead.

THE PROBLEMS

PS
-Transformations
-Falco lives longer
-You have to chase him more if he runs away

YS
-you die faster
-Falco has better recovery w/ wall/cloud
-you die faster.

So can I get your opinions on what you guys do? I'm still leaning towards my PS ban, but YS seems like there's too much chance going on; I either do well on that stage or get *****.

 

[Tekk]

Depends on your opponent really:

Ban PS against a campy falco, YS against an "aggressive" one.
CPs and bans should be picked not only to counter one's character, but also to counter one's playstyle.

 

[Mahone]

The only way i have found to get out of dthrow knee is to condition your opponent, di the first 2-4 knees hard down and away, then the next time di hard up and in, and i find most decent-good falcons will start dashing on reflex and therefore miss the knee....

I think against really good falcons you should just di up and in and then get ready to sdi to maximize your survival rate

Edit: tekk answered that question perfectly

@RebOfHeaven: Im finally getting around to critiquing my 30 games vs. Dr.pp (hurts to watch lol) so im thinking of a bunch of things to solo practice, ill try to post a bunch here

 

[idea]

Also 99% of the time you will not successfully tech on the platform before they knee you, don't go for it. The best way to avoid a knee is to train the falcon to react in a certain way to his dthrows. Predicting is far easier than reacting for a character as fast as falcon, and a lot of them (even pros) have bad habits about following their d-throws with common DI routines.

if they knee you first then you COULDN'T have teched. i think we're imagining different situations. i'm pretty sure there are some percentages which allow you to tech before they can combo the knee. specific situations, meaning it can be risky, but it's risky to DI in either direction in the first place.

What do you guys usually ban against falco?

I usually ban PS, but I'm thinking about banning YS instead.

THE PROBLEMS

PS
-Transformations
-Falco lives longer
-You have to chase him more if he runs away

YS
-you die faster
-Falco has better recovery w/ wall/cloud
-you die faster.

So can I get your opinions on what you guys do? I'm still leaning towards my PS ban, but YS seems like there's too much chance going on; I either do well on that stage or get *****.

sometimes i ban yoshi's, but i like that stage in general, so other times i ban FD. 'cause lasers. that's more of a comfort thing...FD has no platforms, which limits his lasering and ability to attack you from above, but on the other hand FD has no platforms, so you have to jump really high to get above him too. and yoshi's lets you lock down his movement more easily...and you can kill HIM faster too...

stadium seems like an alright ban...he can use the platforms without them obstructing his movement. which they can do on FoD. i CP spacies there a lot just for the chaos factor.

more situationally...kongo is good for falco...so is rainbow cruise. if i'm unsure i might ban cruise just in case.

 

[Tekk]

About the DIing falcon's grabs issue...
You should be more focused on why you're getting grabbed in the first place.

 

[-Sinister-]

A good Falcon will almost always hit dthrow > knee. It's probably the easiest thing in the world for them. Jigglypuff and Kirby are the only two characters who cannot DI away and air-dodge out of it.

ok there's no way that's right. what about mario bros, marth, basically everyone else (besides spacies/falcon) and if they don't get dthrow knee'd, they get uthrow knee'd (sheik).

tldr: basically everyone gets thrown to knee. (afaik)

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

@RebOfHeaven: Im finally getting around to critiquing my 30 games vs. Dr.pp (hurts to watch lol) so im thinking of a bunch of things to solo practice, ill try to post a bunch here

Cool thanks a bunch in advance!!

And tekk you're right about falcon, the main thing is to avoid grabs. How about when he's dair'ing on your shield? Do you guys uair OOS?

ANd why is kongo good for falco's? I usually CP kongo if dreamland and brinstar aren't an option (I kinda hate fod)

 

[Mahone]

Cool thanks a bunch in advance!!

And tekk you're right about falcon, the main thing is to avoid grabs. How about when he's dair'ing on your shield? Do you guys uair OOS?

ANd why is kongo good for falco's? I usually CP kongo if dreamland and brinstar aren't an option (I kinda hate fod)

If falco really wants he can camp there... i've never taken a falco there so i don't really know how well that would work out, thats just the theory behind not cping it....

i'm not entirely convinced though, i've never had to think about it cuz i like fod and dreamland... and brinstar always gets banned, but now that brinstar is illegal, i might have to try out kongo and see how good it is

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Brinstar is illegal?!?!?!?! wtf so its the same cp's just without brinstar? Coulda at least brought back mute city

 

[ShroudedOne]

Brinstar is illegal?!?!?!?! wtf so its the same cp's just without brinstar? Coulda at least brought back mute city

That's what I'm saying! Bring back Mute City. We (Peaches) **** there, too. :D

But no one's having that, really.