Stuff About Puff

[Stevo]

was it that hard, sliq?

 

[Massive]

The silliest thing I've found with Jigglypuff so far is that Jigglypuff can rest Kirby out of Kirby's fthrow. She gets out of stun way before him until higher percents.

(So do a lot of characters, but they can't explode spontaneously)

Do you mean downthrow? (Fthrow and bthrow also work, mostly because you can just ignore the grab and walk over to kirby to rest him).

If you're using a character like Marth, Fox, or Jiggs, Kirby can't do any throw but uthrow below ~60% simply because you can do something awful to him while he's still recovering from the animation.

 

[idea]

i dunno, the only one i'm sure about is fthrow. well yeah and bthrow. i don't think you need to do anything besides float out of fthrow toward him though

 

[Mahone]

TEKK VS LEFFEN

So i wanna preface this by saying that I know i wrote a lot, but it's not because you did poorly, in fact you did really well and I learned some stuff from watching you... the reason i posted so much is cuz I looked really hard for errors because i know that if you fix them you'll be a top pro in no time...

Game 1

:28- You were still throwing out bairs even though he was coming from above you... i think you are just sorta autopiloting just for like a second, but you should make sure you check where they are before you throw out the next bair, an upair would have obv. been better here
:50- I think if you weren't planning on resting him (which makes sense since you would probably die.. idk about pal upsmash), then you should have just backthrow him there for a chance at a gimp... i know you were going for that bair after upthrow and it looked like you almost got it so it might just be a timing error idk, i probably would have gone for upair bair there (oh **** im ryming all over the place)
:53- I'm not sure many foxes would get hit by that fsmash because he just got out of a possible death situation... most foxes will just run away and start lasering, it looks like you predicted he would like turn around and go aggro right away which i just don't think will happen in that situation too often, then again he just grabs nothing so who knows what he was actually trying to do lol
:55- Obv. poorly spaced nair, not really sure what you were going for...
:58- I don't think the fsmash is worth it here, at 63 percent, even if it hit the fox hes probably diing and not going far off stage if at all... probably not worth the risk
1:05- I remember when i watched the set the first time, one of the only mistakes i saw at first glance was that you nair instead of bair for no reason... this is one of those times lol. I don't blame you, I do the same thing, we all wanna be mangopuff not hboxpuff, but i usually don't do them backwards, that seems like its just too easy for fox to **** with upsmash like leffen did
1:10- Not sure why you turned around to do a weak fair, nair or space away to bair seems better
1:14- I remember the other thing i saw at first glance when i first watched your set is that you didn't punish leffen for not knowing how to edgeguard puff... this time its ok not to punish, but you should of made a note that he likes to upsmash, cuz i get so many free pound->edgeguard kills on foxes that don't know what they are doing
1:22- Again, your getting on stage game is kinda awkward... i really like how you use platforms sometimes and I'm probably stealing that, but mixing in going for the edge is good too, and you haven't just grabbed the edge once, i feel like once you use to many jumps, you sort of have to do those fairs/nairs that trade and thats not good
1:31- You didn't need to predict the jump, you could have just hit with the fair
1:41- Lol like here... why turn around nair, why not just nair facing forward or bair
1:48- After you got back on safely here with the nair i'm suprised you didn't take some free upair pressure, you just sorta slowly moved to the center and gave him room
2:05- Pound was a weird choice, I think short hop upair would have been better but who knows
2:12- Nair obv. bad there at low percent
2:15- It worked out there but it’s just sort of scary seeing you recover high (above fox) when you could take the edge and/or recover horizontally with bair
2:20- At that percent I would have just tried upthrow rest, but backthrow is fine too I guess, however then based on where he went I feel like the fox is always gonna airdodge or bair on so I would look out for that in the future
2:33- I don’t know if it just looks slow, but I can tell from watching that, that it could have been a quick bair-bair-bair like hbox does, i don't know if the third one is a combo but he can't do anything about it down there except mabye shine you lol... basically what im saying is that you should of hit a little differently with the second bair and then instead of taking ledge go out there after him, i'm pretty sure it would have been guaranteed edgeguard, just watch it again and i think you'll see what i mean
2:44- Lol so silly, either space a bair or waveland grab, i don't really get that nair(but it looks ****)
3:23- You didn't do anything wrong at this time, but from like 3:00 til now, I've noticed that you are spacing really high, i guess trying to intercept fox's full hop nair, but you are putting yourself in a bad position: above fox... you want to stay horizontal as much as possible, even horizontal and a little above (which is what you are doing) is not good and if you predict they are going to do a full hop nair its ok to do, but leffen is just waiting and then going in after you do your move

Game 2

3:49- Those nairs at low percent get you a lot. I guess the upside is that you get back to center stage and just take a hit, but you can jus weave out the nair and force your opponent to retreat with bairs or something. I think against some opponents you might have to do plays like taking a hit to get back, but i think against leffen based on the last game, you could just space him out with bairs for a little and he'd retreat
3:55- It's might not be a mistake, but just to let you know if you don't, diing the upthrow full behind gets you out (unless they predict it mabye?)... sorry if you know that and just didn't di that time, i just wanna be thorough in my critique
4:00- Thats the really good nair that i was talking about, it seems much better
4:15- That pound didn't work out, but i think it was worth the risk, you just got shined but you could have gimped him so that was really good
4:29- I don't really like the shield there after the falling upair, i would have uptilted or grabbed, it seems worth the risk of getting hit
4:38- You end up having to shield right in front of him because you just don't weave back enough... gotta get more of those hbox bairs that are super safe
4:39- You can rest that lol... but really you should have teched it, you can react to the downthrow and tech in case you were expecting upthrow
5:12- I just occured to me that you don't dash attack at all, i can't point to specific points where you should have used it, but i can definitely tell that would help your game, try using dash attack sometimes when you predict they are gonna jump oos or some other situations, you will find that its pretty ****
5:27- Ok, so right after i say that you dash attack twice within 15 seconds lol, but one was techchase and the other was a combo, so i just wanna clarify that im talking about when you predict them dropping shield, obv. you know how to use dash attack for tech chasing, etc.
6:17- Lol, what happened there was you di'd the throw behind, and then thought you were out so you started moving in, but you actually di'd the lasers in allowing you to get comboed... remember to di the lasers away too
6:21- Thats the second time you did that exact same pound and got punished, im not sure what you are trying to punish, run of bair i guess, but ya, again upair would have been better
6:48- Leffen always shields at first in between stocks, you should of noticed and grabbed... although he does leave shield quickly and mabye thats what you were trying to catch with the uptilt.. idk
7:20- Eh, for the last 30 seconds i would have been going for the grab/rest setup, you are sorta just poking him a little with nairs which is not what you need at his percent on yoshi's


I'll probably do the other games later, but i figured i'd post what i had so you could read it

 

[SSBMLahti]

Do you mean downthrow? (Fthrow and bthrow also work, mostly because you can just ignore the grab and walk over to kirby to rest him).

If you're using a character like Marth, Fox, or Jiggs, Kirby can't do any throw but uthrow below ~60% simply because you can do something awful to him while he's still recovering from the animation.

What's so massive about you?

Spoiler

Other than your big toe.

 

[Massive]

Lots of things, I think it mostly comes from the fact that I used to weigh close to 300 lbs, lol.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Does tech-reading with SING (upB) seem like a logical idea? I've seen a lot of tech-reads that ended in missed rest

 

[Tekk]

Thanks Mahone, I'll work on all that. :D

(how do you pronounce "mahone" by the way ?)

 

[Mahone]

Does tech-reading with SING (upB) seem like a logical idea? I've seen a lot of tech-reads that ended in missed rest

only if they are at like a billion percent... otherwise they will get out of the sleep before your sing is done

Thanks Mahone, I'll work on all that. :D

(how do you pronounce "mahone" by the way ?)

ya np, uh.. its like its spelled sorta... MAH-HONE i guess

 

[idea]

only if they are at like a billion percent... otherwise they will get out of the sleep before your sing is done

yeah, this. not worth it.

(and those missed rests are just a mistake, better to practice the timing anyway )

(i say timing 'cause it's hard to space something with almost no hitbox so i usually just think of it as timing in relation to another move...like jump)

 

[FoxLisk]

Does tech-reading with SING (upB) seem like a logical idea? I've seen a lot of tech-reads that ended in missed rest

it depends. if your goal is to win, no. if your goal is to humiliate your opponent, definitely.

 

[Winston]

techchasing with ledgecanceled sing would be sick though

in the rare occasion that it might come up

 

[Tekk]

You can't ledgecancel sing, like you can't ledgecancel rest.

 

[crush]

You can't ledgecancel sing, like you can't ledgecancel rest.

I think he meant cancelling sing by grabbing a ledge.

Also this is off topic but im pretty sure shield breaks are ledge cancellable lol (not with puff though obviously)

 

[-LzR-]

Sup Mahone, can you critique mah Puff?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V1O13iVT2U&feature=related

I know it's a pretty boring set, but try to watch anyways. Both are matchups I had no previous experience in so keep that in mind.
Really need to get better to get into the bracket next time.

 

[Tekk]

Does anyone have any advice on using pound ? I can't find any clever way to use it, and anytime I do it feels random.

 

[-LzR-]

The long lasting hitbox with a disjoint is pretty nice. It's kinda like poking the opponent. It's really hard to explain, but I find the move useful when used correctly.

 

[Tekk]

Yeah sure, but I'd like to know how to use it correctly. :x
Gonna look at your matches tonight, I'm not as good as mahone on analyzing one's playstyle, but I'll try to give you some general puff advice.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Are there any good zones for Puff against Young Link? As in, where does she want to be relative to Y.Link? Certainly not directly above or below him, but he's got good horizontal game, too.

 

[Mahone]

Sup Mahone, can you critique mah Puff?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V1O13iVT2U&feature=related

I know it's a pretty boring set, but try to watch anyways. Both are matchups I had no previous experience in so keep that in mind.
Really need to get better to get into the bracket next time.

alright ill take a look later

Yeah sure, but I'd like to know how to use it correctly. :x
Gonna look at your matches tonight, I'm not as good as mahone on analyzing one's playstyle, but I'll try to give you some general puff advice.

Naw, I'd love to see other people critique, everyone has their own unique spin on stuff.

Also, pound is my favorite move to use, I'll try to think of more situations, but one i like to do is if Marth's are trying to cross you up and you hit them with a pound, you can combo it into a bair chain (they were di'ing in since they were crossing up) or sometimes it straight up combos into rest.

It's just important to remember that you have to space it like any other move... you can't do it on the ground cuz its hella laggy if you do that and don't do it like right into someone's shield so they can upsmash you oos with ease...

I used to suck with pound and used it way too much until mango posted somewhere in this thread that you don't ever approach with pound, you use it when you predict they are going to approach... thats a really good way to see it, you want them to run into it most of the time, but i think once you get the hang of it you can approach with it a little

Are there any good zones for Puff against Young Link? As in, where does she want to be relative to Y.Link? Certainly not directly above or below him, but he's got good horizontal game, too.

ya but i think horizontal is still your best shot... really you want to be close to him so he can't get his projectiles going

 

[Oskar]

http://www.twitch.tv/ssbm_oskar/b/294250459?id=294250459

Game 2 and 3.

Footage of my Puff from a small local tournament last week. Advice very much appreciated! I've messed around with Puff in friendlies for some time now, but only recently started using her for srs. As such there's probably a lot of stuff to improve on, but hey, gotta start somewhere, right?

Thank you in advance!

 

[idea]

Does anyone have any advice on using pound ? I can't find any clever way to use it, and anytime I do it feels random.

it's kind of character- AND person-specific...for instance it only really works on foxes that will occasionally attack you before you've committed to or missed something. you want to catch them out of their jumping at you. it can also be good for catching fox out of his dash dance. there are some people in my region against whom i might occasionally pound, and others where i consider it a mistake to use it even once. (more of them are the latter )

that's how pound works in general, you want them to run into it unexpectedly. it's never really "he's going to be there in half a second, i should pound"...too slow for that. you can never really be sure you're going to hit with it.

it can be good for edgeguarding sometimes, if the other person is between you and the edge, but i find that to be a bit unreliable. it takes long enough that they can see it coming and a lot of the time DI it to relative safety, even with fastfallers. (in those cases it gets better at higher percents)

i like it against marth, too. it seems to go through is moves pretty well, and trades with things it probably shouldn't. and anything that gets marth into the air is good...doubly so if he's behind you and suddenly in bair range. he can wavedash around and fsmash you in the lag if he wants, but if you pound deep into his dash dance/wavedash range he has a bit of a hard time getting away from it.

upthrow pound is alright on spacies when they DI too far to rest, but at lower percents upair tends to be better. it's up to you though, good chance of putting them near the edge vs. good chance of continuing a combo or looking for a rest.

overall, it's pretty situational and there's usually a better option. ESPECIALLY against fox. it puts you in unnecessary lag and your hesitation in using it is a good habit

edit:

I used to suck with pound and used it way too much until mango posted somewhere in this thread that you don't ever approach with pound, you use it when you predict they are going to approach...

oh good, guess i've been doing it right

 

[KirbyKaze]

oh good, guess i've been doing it right

But you never think I'm going to approach and do it anyway.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

I like using pound when Im off the edge and I know my opponent is coming out after me (such as when they do an aerial from a ledge hop) I can guarantee at least a trade, which usually sends them behind me into baireal zone =]

But you don't want that trade when you're at high percents

 

[idea]

But you never think I'm going to approach and do it anyway.

yeah, those ones are mistakes. i'd be doing it right if you were someone else.

except ledgehop pound, that one is always wrong.

 

[genkaku]

I always feel bad for using pound too much. It's like dash attack as falcon, I smack myself and say, do better next time.

 

[Tekk]

Thanks Mahone and Idea!
I'm close to becoming a top3 french player, I'm gonna rep puff HARD in the future.

 

[crush]

Why did the title of this thread change?

 

[-LzR-]

So guys why exactly should I fair over bair ever? When I watch videos, I see more fairs than bairs, but most of the time I just use bair =/

 

[Massive]

Fair stays out longer, and you can drag it down into spacies during their recovery.

Also, sometimes you aren't facing the right way and don't have time to turn for a bair.

 

[idea]

Thanks Mahone and Idea!
I'm close to becoming a top3 french player, I'm gonna rep puff HARD in the future.

who are the other two? actually wanna just make a list of the top 5 french players kind of curious now.

is anyone in france a contender for, say, top 10 in europe?

So guys why exactly should I fair over bair ever? When I watch videos, I see more fairs than bairs, but most of the time I just use bair =/

ohh there are a lot of reasons, i could write a huge thing on that, but i'm very lazy, you see.

Range: bair >>> fair > nair
Power: bair >> fair >> nair
Speed: bair << fair < nair

it's good for edgeguarding, especially spacies. it allows you to maneuver yourself more than bair but unlike nair the hit is useful on its own.

it can cut through marth's moves. from a neutral position bair (or shield) is way better against marth, but once you get a little bit close fair is arguably better. he can't set up his spacing if you have your legs in his face all the time, and he can't shieldgrab that either with good spacing.

weak fair combos into strong fair on peach. if she is spacing her float well she can probably react to you before you can get a bair out; fair comes out faster and you can move on top of her while it's out. you know how falcons will sometimes edgeguard with weak knee on purpose, 'cause it'll still work but is way easier to hit? same basic concept. fair to fair is decent for "edgeguarding" peach or just hitting her more than once onstage.

its staying out ability gives it a bit of vertical range, too. bair doesn't really have that. nair does, but again, it's often too weak for your purposes.

fair pressure works well on falcon, but again, bair is better from a neutral position.

onstage vs. fox you can wall him out with fair pretty effectively, but it doesn't, like, actually work, the way bair does still good, though.

fair is often better on falco because of the vertical thing and because ANY hit on falco can lead to a lot of things.

fair is also good because the F stands for Forward. you have more options when you face someone. jab, fsmash, slightly faster grab. i think fair is better for just...winging it.

this could be a lot hugerer.

TL;DR: fair is fast, stays out for a while, is good for edgeguarding and is good for putting on pressure in some cases and matchups.

 

[Tekk]

lol ashura

EDIT: I think weak fair is one of puff's best edgeguarding tools.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Weak Fair is amazing.

 

[Tekk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJMPbgeqMns&feature=feedu

Matches from NML18, a tournament in Lille which I won.
I think I played much better the 2nd match..
Btw, these matches are prior to your advice, Mahone and Idea, so my pound game sucks pretty bad in them lol.

The rest (lulz) is coming later

 

[Cactuar]

Good news everyone! I'm picking up puff! Anyone want to give me some blind advice?

 

[Tekk]

Ok so basically:
You want to throw aerials where your opponent is going to go.
WD back grab is really god vs midlevel players.
Be careful where you land (especially vs fox) or you'll get punished easily.
Put pressure on your opponent by floating around them and throwing a few bairs/fairs.
Use your airmobility to bait, a lot.

If I think of anything else I'll add it later, hope I helped.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Also remember that you're wearing your opponent down slowly. You want them to get frustrated with you, make mistakes, and those are what you punish. She doesn't fight straight up, she pokes and prods, and tests the patience of every other character in the cast. You have to be a wall of annoying, in a sense.

 

[Cactuar]

Wait, so you guys are telling me I should go 100% aggressive 100% of the time?

DONE

 

[Stevo]

why do aerial attacks when you can just straight up run up to them grab up-throw rest

 

[ShroudedOne]

=D

I laugh when up-throw rest gets people. Isn't that, like, '03 metagame? You should be DI'ing all of Jiggs' up-throws all the time.