Stuff About Puff

[idea]

yeah but there's more than one and i have no way of knowing which one you mean

 

[ShroudedOne]

It's so impossible it's like 6-4!

Anyway, Hbox just said what to do vs Fox like 10 posts ago. Maybe you should... try... reading...

So it's not 7-3? Man, my MU knowledge is so outdated. But it certainly feels like a 7-3 MU in his favor.

 

[-Darc-]

Can he fair you or something?

The one I'm talking about is that Marth can CG you to pretty high percents

 

[SummerSpeedyMix]

Darc, I hate you so much. I know this damn secret, and I hate the fact that it works so well.

 

[mers]

It's true.

Fox and Falco are the only characters in this game.

Peach on FD vs Fox and Falco is also a character sort of I guess.

Falco, Fox, and Peach are the only good characters in this game. The rest are all bad.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

It's so impossible it's like 6-4!

Anyway, Hbox just said what to do vs Fox like 10 posts ago. Maybe you should... try... reading...

I did.

"Shffl upair against fox a lot

jab randomly

don't stop bairing"

Not a lot of advice tho, doesn't really cover the matchup to me

 

[idea]

you kind of have to imagine there is this vertical line. if you cross it fox will hit you, or grab you, or something. if you stay too far away from the line he can laser you safely. you have to put bairs or whatever on that line.

that is the default setting for that matchup. from there you can do things like wavedash back + grab if you think he's going to approach, or weave farther in and bair him at the back of his dash dance, or upair him if you think he's going to come at you from above/a platform. or any other form of prediction/educated guess.

platforms are weird. he can't laser you really, so you don't have the same motivation to get closer to him, but he also gains positional advantage if you let him move around up there too freely. that one you kind of have to play by ear.

also, if fox moves a little too far back, the line moves with him, and you should move with it, until eventually he is close to an edge and his options are limited.

 

[unknown522]

aww, that's cute

*pats on head*

 

[idea]

why do you always do that!

 

[sanchaz]

lol puff main's trying to figure out how to beat fox.

it's like playing super meat boy, where if you get hit, you should die as puff. but for fox he can hit about 5 times, and be okay, but then that fire fox. lol.

but seriously, I feel sorry for puff mains. good luck

 

[unknown522]

why do you always do that!

I always have to do that

 

[Tekk]

There's no magical formula, you have to outsmart fox so you don't get ***** by his speed.

Just predict where he's going to go and hit him with bairs/uairs. Pressure him with bairs to the ledge.
WD grab/fsmash works for punishing approaches, just watch for that FH nairplane covering the whole distance between him and you.
You don't always have to WD backwards: WDing forward ***** nairplane.
Roll not to get grabbed (hbox is really good at that) but don't do it systematically or he'll punish you hard (mango vs hbox at G2 is a good example).

Sorry for not organizing my thoughts better than that, I just felt like writing some stuff that can work on fox.
Be smart.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Ok thanks everybody

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol puff main's trying to figure out how to beat fox.

it's like playing super meat boy, where if you get hit, you should die as puff. but for fox he can hit about 5 times, and be okay, but then that fire fox. lol.

but seriously, I feel sorry for puff mains. good luck

What the hell are you talking about are you cracked out or something?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I did.

"Shffl upair against fox a lot

jab randomly

don't stop bairing"

Not a lot of advice tho, doesn't really cover the matchup to me

Seems fairly comprehensive to me. There's not much to the MU. Do you really need to be told to up throw rest when you can?

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Seems fairly comprehensive to me. There's not much to the MU. Do you really need to be told to up throw rest when you can?

Of course it does, you don't main puff.

I'm sorry for being so horribly unreasonable asking for more advice. Why are you *****ing about it?

Thanks to people who were actual help for me.

E: I got ***** by a couple of foxes last weekend, Ill try to get the vids to youtube if anyone feels like critiquing them.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Maybe the problem isn't the matchup so much as you're bad.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Maybe the problem isn't the matchup so much as you're bad.

What a poor attempt to provoke me. I am not very good, I don't get to play a lot and I just recently started playing as puff, the matchup is still very hard for puff if Fox is laser camping, I'll try to get videos of myself playing so you can critique me.

 

[ShroudedOne]

You kinda have to catch KirbyKaze on a good day. Otherwise, you never know what you're going to get. I'm sure he didn't mean any harm.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

You kinda have to catch KirbyKaze on a good day. Otherwise, you never know what you're going to get. I'm sure he didn't mean any harm.

I always try not to draw conclusions about a person based on forum posts because it's often misleading, I'm sure he's a cool guy. No harm done.

 

[Massive]

In addition to the other stuff posted vs fox, work on gimping his recovery with fair/bair.

You can step him all the way to the bottom of the stage with some well timed fairs.
Also, if they try to illusion back on from the side, fair/rest/nair (nair is probably the easiest to connect reliably) it.

That or practice dsmashing recoveries, it's super difficult to tech for a lot of people.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

My biggest issue with the matchup is racking up damage from the neutral position, I can gimp and punish ok when I get the chance but I'm really bad at spacing from neutral position. Also I played s'more this weekend and realized that I really suck at the matchup -.-

 

[RyeJew]

Yo novice I totally feel you bro. I recently got bodied by a real good fox in my area named moose and couldn't get in at all vs his solid defense. If I learned anything from my loss is that you gotta play off their mistakes and/or habits. Focus!

 

[idea]

I recently got bodied by a real good fox in my area named moose and couldn't get in at all vs his solid defense.

yeah you can't really attack fox, the best you can do is like...defend aggressively

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Yo novice I totally feel you bro. I recently got bodied by a real good fox in my area named moose and couldn't get in at all vs his solid defense. If I learned anything from my loss is that you gotta play off their mistakes and/or habits. Focus!

yeah you can't really attack fox, the best you can do is like...defend aggressively

This is very complex imo
If putting bair pressure doesn't seem to be working (like if they're camping by dash dancing away from your bairs and coming back with usmash or a grab), you can do the same thing back to fox in a different way:

Test their patience-> Make sure you are landing in a safe place where you can jump again before they get there. Stay close enough while airborne that they think you could be approaching (but not close enough that your bairs are nipping their shield) and mix up your bair pattern (as always)... What do they do? You should memorize this, because this is probably what they will do for most of the match. (Camp alot, camp a little then approach, approach)

So in a way, you're doing sort of an airborne dash dance to see how/if they approach.. You may take a few lasers while learning their playstyle, but it should prove worth it in the whole scheme of the match/set. I really gotta learn to be patient and not approach as aggressively against camping foxes..... force them to make the first move (even if it is running away) and learn to effectively counter it. Forcing them to the edge is good. Learning how they typically get around me back to the center is even better.
..just my thoughts..not the best answer probably..

@Mahone You got any solo practice ideas yet? =D

 

[username12345678]

Hey guys how do you generally approach Ice climbers? i played one today and we pretty much went even. although it seemed like the only way i could get in was spacing bairs (and occasionally using pound which yielded very good results) but i got grabbed quite a few times after landing.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I watched mango vs jman and mango used alot of fair and nair, espesially shffl nairs seemed to work, for example mindgame them into grab and punish with grab or fsmash

 

[-LzR-]

Does dair have any use at all? I have tried to find some nice ways to use it, but it seems crappy and doesn't seem to be able to combo into pretty much anything at all.

 

[-Darc-]

for example mindgame them into grab and punish with grab or fsmash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb5_DVBWgwY#t=2m36s

 

[Tekk]

Landing dair -> works pretty well.
So does dair -> upsmash at high % (on floaty chars).

 

[Mahone]

@Mahone You got any solo practice ideas yet? =D

Sorry man, some **** came up and i haven't looked at the vids at all or played any smash since i made that post.


I would say one thing to practice is how you are planning on breaking out of grabs... i never thought it was worth it, but now that wobbling seems to be legal quite often, there is no question it is worth being good at mashing out... so i thought about what the optimal way to push the most buttons is and it really helped... i haven't actually played any ics, but i mash out of a lot of grabs at low percents now which is great... i definitely underatted getting out of grabs before.

I was surprised at how much there was to think about... like before i use to just mash casually by moving my left thumb like crazy and hitting all the buttons where my fingers were... but then i realized that i wasn't hitting all 8 inputs on the control stick by moving it wildly... if i just slow down and make sure i make a full circle, i hit more inputs per frame even though my fingers are moving slower... and of course you can train your fingers to move faster in that motion once you get the movement down. Also for my right hand, i found it better to move your hand quickly to perpendicular to the controller and tap all the buttons like you are playing the piano (badly, like you are just trying to make alot of noise lol), but remember to get used to moving your hand back to the right position (i claw so its kinda weird for me) in time once you get out of the grab.

PLUS (thats right, the grab advice still isn't over), you have to remember to plan what you are going to do after you get out of the grab... i hate watching people play chudat and break out of the grab, only to spotdodge and get grabbed again, so think about what works.

Ya... so thats a lot that i got just from thinking about mashing out of grabs, so try the same approach to different techniques that you might have neglected in the past like smash diing.

The only puff specific thing that i thought about so far is sweetspoting the edge with jigg's up-b. It can actually save you a lot because you can grab from surprisingly low... try to grab as low as possible and get used to that height... in tourney matches you might not wanna risk it but sometimes you will need to do it and it isn't too hard as long as you practice a lot.

Also, im sure you are thinking you have practiced that already, but one thing i didn't think about is that i don't practice it when i have less jumps... i watched some matches a while ago and realized that usually when i needed to sweetspot i only had like 2 jumps, and as you know, jiggs jumps give her less and less height as you use them, so i was used to the max jump height into up-b, and i ended up coming short and dying sometimes....

So just try that out, and use my basic approach, which is to take a tactic you know and think about certain situations that would make it harder (i.e. you can lcancel dair consistenly, but mabye you should practice on a shield and then an angled shield, etc.).

I'll get more into puff specific stuff when i watch the videos later, but hopefully this stuff was good enough for now...

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Does dair have any use at all? I have tried to find some nice ways to use it, but it seems crappy and doesn't seem to be able to combo into pretty much anything at all.

Sometimes I use a rising dair in midair to get to the other side of my opponent. I just jump and immediately dair while DIing horizontally and if my opponent tries to hit me as I pass over them, dair usually gets priority or at least trades.

Thanks Mahone I DEFINITELY need to work on mashing out of grabs. I have a bad habit of not even trying sometimes and just focusing on the throw DI and thinking ahead to using sDI. I will try your strategy and I am convinced it'll help me remember when I get grabbed.

As for the upB, does it give you invincibility when it starts up? I am sooo used to doing a vertical airdodge when Im on my last jump or two below the edge. Airdodge beats getting shined by a fox, but would the shine hit you out of the upB (basically the same question as to whether you are invincible)? Either way it is a good thing to practice to sweet spot if you are fight a character who can't easily attack below the plane of the stage.

Speaking of which, does falco's dair on the edge of the stage and marth's dtilt reach below the region of the ledge where you sweetspot?

 

[Massive]

Sing-ledgegrabbing lets jiggs sweetspot the edge, something he normally can't do. If the hitbox goes below the ledge you can get screwed because there is no invincibility, but it does give jiggs a deceptively long reach.

The ledgegrab range is actually the first large hitbox created when you sing.

It's probably most useful for the Marth matchup, although since I incorporated into my game it's been pretty useful on the falcon matchup too. Also, it lets you chase someone off the side with fairs and not waste a jump turning around (omnidirectional ledgegrab ftw!). Also, it lets you ledgehog people who think they're safe (think sheik) because it grabs from so far away. (You can also insta-ledgehog, but the execution is "challenging" to do reliably).

Dair is just awesome. You can use it for an all offense ledge approach. If you drop > jump > dair onto the stage correctly you will land in autocancel frames and be able to do any move as soon as you land.

There's also the dair > utilt and dair > rest stuff, that being heavily reliant on L-cancelling dair and thereby being pretty hard to preform correctly.

 

[hungrybox]

Fox isn't so much about comboing him as it is messing up his momentum

little pokes here and there that catch him off guard will make grabs and jab resets more viable







PUFFS


Please look into Dair. It has game-changing potential when cancelled correctly.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I've seen you do dair > grab, dair > usmash. Just waiting on that dair > rest, now.

 

[idea]

yeah dair is interesting...here are some situational uses i've found for it:

- when trying to float down from high above, fake them out a little then dair right onto their head. doesn't work if they see it coming since lots of things trade with dair. seems to work well on marth...but only once
- dair across someone's shield for safe shield pressure, also it's unclear to them where you're going to go afterward
- dair to grab
- dair to go behind them to...grab. is usually the best choice. sometimes uptilt works too. it's pretty obvious, but you never know. (and generally safe on shield anyway)
- move horizontally while dairing to cover a lot of range while edgeguarding. sometimes a good panic/last resort against spacies.
- dair so that it covers the edge when you're edgeguarding from onstage

some people say to ledgehop dair to get onstage, but that never ever works for me. the way people space moves to beat my other options seems to also beat ledgehop dair.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah, I'm sorry Novice. Baggage followed me onto the boards and I do feel one of the major issues that keeps SWF from really doing anything good or developing is the sheer volume of information regurgitation. I just wish people would do their own research for questions that have been asked so much, read the stickies, and be more specific about what they're looking for.

But I was undeniably way out of line and you didn't deserve that (although you didn't really seem affected by it anyway lol).

Anyway, my bad; I'm sorry.





.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox isn't so much about comboing him as it is messing up his momentum

little pokes here and there that catch him off guard will make grabs and jab resets more viable

To add to this, one of Puff's biggest strengths is that you can be wrecking her with <insert character> and then get disrupted, fail to regain footing or simply get read after being disrupted, and die to a Rest (or similar). Being able to knock the opponent off balance and kill with relatively simple, low effort punishes when an opening arises does horrible things to an opponent's mental stability and really puts a lot of pressure on their cognitive endurance. It's hard to not get frustrated.

That's part of why being safe with Puff, and trying to drag the game into a long match, is often so effective. You want to attack their brain, and their perception of what works and what doesn't. This strategy isn't too uncommon. Sheik kind of does this too if you play very edge oriented, like M2K sometimes, only Sheik can be edgeguarded really easily by most characters so it's not quite as good IMHO. But it still can be very good.

Anyway, people are also talking about needing to learn habit; I agree wholeheartedly. I think on the whole, Puff rewards you the second most (sometimes) for spotting a habit that's exploitable, or the opponent doesn't know about, and gets the second most (again, sometimes) for making a clean read (playing Puff effectively involves a lot of understanding how the opponent is trying to play; you must be able to recognize when they're using standard play, gimmicky play, and even outright trying to trick you [fortunately, as Puff, the amount of things they can do to trick your safe play is actually fairly small - and it's helped by the fact that, despite Fox's lasers, Puff generally sets the tempo because of her range/aerial mobility suite vs more passive or defensive ones]).

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb5_DVBWgwY#t=2m36s

Lol

Does dair have any use at all? I have tried to find some nice ways to use it, but it seems crappy and doesn't seem to be able to combo into pretty much anything at all.

Dair is actually a very good move, it has a pretty large hitbox underneath and the priority of the move is really good, here are some uses:

-Trying to get down from above against characters like Fox, use dair as a defensive move as you get down

-Dairing from the ledge as you get back to stage, it covers so much distance and it's a pretty safe way to get up. Only thing is not to do this too much because they can WD back and fsmash u, even still the range often surprises the opponent

-AutocancelDair to grab, just watch hungrybox lol

-Just ****ing with your opponent, dair doesn't do much damage but it's pretty safe so you can use it to force your opponent to shield and land behind them, you can use this move to frustrate them and to make them bad choices

-This move is actually bad edgeguarding IMO because the move lasts so long and your opponent can SDI trough it getting back to stage so it's actually counter-productive
, all of jiggs other aerials are better for edgeguarding imo

Yeah, I'm sorry Novice. Baggage followed me onto the boards and I do feel one of the major issues that keeps SWF from really doing anything good or developing is the sheer volume of information regurgitation. I just wish people would do their own research for questions that have been asked so much, read the stickies, and be more specific about what they're looking for.

But I was undeniably way out of line and you didn't deserve that (although you didn't really seem affected by it anyway lol).

Anyway, my bad; I'm sorry.

No worries mate =)

 

[sanchaz]

Fox isn't so much about comboing him as it is messing up his momentum

little pokes here and there that catch him off guard will make grabs and jab resets more viable







PUFFS


Please look into Dair. It has game-changing potential when cancelled correctly.

hbox. my puff freind has been trying to D.I. the up throw and then up-air from fox so bad, but we don't know why it sometimes works or doesn't? we literally have done this thousands of times. is their a specific method for avoiding the second up-air from fox? I just tell him to spaz on the joystick and hope for the best.

anyone else can answer, we like to have a method that works most of the time.