Starcraft 2 (Info on first post!)

[Nashun]

LOL at this game being one of the most competitive games ever. It's so poorly designed I'm almost surprised at how big the competitive scene is despite how much money was put into it. That is, if you're defining competitiveness by a game's design.

I'm assuming you are, because if you're defining competitiveness by money or # of players then LoL has SC2 beat by a longshot.

 

[Lore]

LoL has SC beat... in America. Besides that, you can't really argue that one or the other is more competitive by design merit; they are totally different games with totally different game mechanics and objectives.

 

[Nashun]

LoL has SC beat....worldwide. You can't exactly isolate one case for your argument and pretend it has any meaning. There is more money in LoL and there are more active players in LoL. Period.

The game mechanics and objectives are not totally different, but that's irrelevant either way. It seems, by their attitude and the game itself, that Blizzard purposely made what in other games would be poor design choices and tried to make them magically work together. Whether they did or not is still up to debate; the game's still new but there's a large consensus that the game's design leaves much to be desired.

 

[Lore]

I wasn't using one isolated case; I meant worldwide as well. I'd like to see where you're getting your numbers. I'm quite curious to know exactly the difference, haha.

And how are they not totally different? I was under the impression that LoL is DotA based while SC is a more traditional RTS.

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

I disagree with more money in LoL, in which way is there more money in LoL lol?

Also I truly believe the skill level and competitiveness in the SC series is far greater than LoL. LoL is no where close when it comes to SC1. I agree some mistakes where made in the design of SC2 but it is still the most competitive game imo. The skill level it takes to play LoL at the top level is almost humorous to the skill level it takes to play SC2 at the top level.

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

I play toss.

What builds are you using in your MUs?

 

[sakuraZaKi]

I've actually just started playing SC, so I'm fairly new to the whole build MUs.

If anyone could give me overviews and suggestions, that'd be dandy~

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

SC2 is designed terribly. Literally the whole online experience goes out of its way to deny information from individuals and restrict them from interacting with each other. The only seemingly redeeming quality of the game is the gameplay itself, but even that is somewhat trash. There are almost no interesting units, just A movers and spell casters. The races have all been nerfed to the point where each race is equally trash so they don't abuse the other trash too hard.

 

[Lazzarrath]

I've actually just started playing SC, so I'm fairly new to the whole build MUs.

If anyone could give me overviews and suggestions, that'd be dandy~

as others have said its usually best to just learn one build for each match up at first and focus on getting that build down and then add on others as you get better and feel like you want more variety in builds, play etc. pretty much every pvz these days opens with a forge fast expand, relying on the cannons to keep you safe while you get a good economy up. pvp at the moment is really weird, I see a lot of 4gates and collossus if it gets to midgame, blink play is also pretty popular. pvt these days is mostly just 1 gate fast expand, especially with the current map pool, although you can do other things like 3gate pressure, 2gate robo etc.

 

[Mogwai]

I just wrote a blog post that seems relevant to the SC2 vs. LoL nonsense going on in here: http://mogwaismusings.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/in-defense-of-lol/

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

LoL is actually a really good game. In some ways its more forgiving than DotA (i remember that for most of the game you can simply choose to run away and not be ganked, except by certain heroes; in dota you were already dead before you even saw another hero on your screen) but i think LoL has some really creative heroes and more interesting team battles.

The only thing that really bothers me about LoL is the out of game leveling system that gives bonuses and abilities based on how much you have played the game.

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

I just wrote a blog post that seems relevant to the SC2 vs. LoL nonsense going on in here: http://mogwaismusings.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/in-defense-of-lol/

... ... I'll never understand how some take this game seriously but I know this is a pointless argument and will stop at that.

I've actually just started playing SC, so I'm fairly new to the whole build MUs.

If anyone could give me overviews and suggestions, that'd be dandy~

For PvZ you wanna FFE on maps that have a narrow choke or ramp at the natural expansion. I like the LiquidHerO's version the best as it sets you up nicely for the midgame and late game
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287970

For PvT the standard is 1 gate FE, from there you lay down 3 gateways and a robo. The follow up is up to you but I would suggest the CreatorPrime style of play, it gets double forges early to get a large upgrade lead. This style is kinda becoming the standard.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292549

PvP is kinda tough, it is a strange MU, the 2 leading builds are blink stalkers, and phoenix. Personally I do a dt expand but I think it is better to learn a standard style for PvP
don't really have any links for this one sorry.

 

[Nashun]

I've played Brood War, League of Legends, and SC2 competitively at a reasonably high level and I can say with almost certain confidence that the difference of skill in high level SC2 and LoL is negligible. Brood War was an amazing game and probably the best competitive game ever, but that's not what we're talking about.

 

[Lore]

In all honesty, I would agree on Brood War being better if the UI was better (showing what is selected for hotkeys helps, among other negligible things) and if the unit selection cap pretty much didn't exist. I've gotten too used to those changes, haha.

Game design wise, yeah there's no question which is better.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

really the only things that bother me about bw are not being able to select multiple buildings and not being able to rally workers. So much of the game is just fighting those two limitations.

 

[Lore]

Yeah, same here. The unit cap is also annoying, haha.

I think the lack of rallying lets amateurs artificially boost their APM at the beginning in order to show off, so there's that.

 

[Zankoku]

Actually, the presence of rallying is what allows players to artificially boost APM. Lack of worker rallying means you actually need APM to get things done efficiently.

 

[Lazzarrath]

Actually, the presence of rallying is what allows players to artificially boost APM. Lack of worker rallying means you actually need APM to get things done efficiently.

true this, played bw for a couple weeks and my apm went up by a significant amount from what it is in sc2, just because in bw there is so much more to do, thanks to the limitations of the games interface

 

[Allied]

won a small sc2 online tournament today the guy forfietted after 1 match in grand finals was happy

 

[Frolossus]

don't check this thread very often but since i'm here and there's a bit of discussion about bw going on. one of the things that irritates me to no end about sc2 is how much units clump together as opposed to in bw where your army is spread half way across the map in something other than a blob of unit.

bw also feels a lot easier to watch, even if you don't play it much or only come from an sc2 background only look up some vods of some old bw games and you will be amazed

I disagree with more money in LoL, in which way is there more money in LoL lol?

Also I truly believe the skill level and competitiveness in the SC series is far greater than LoL. LoL is no where close when it comes to SC1. I agree some mistakes where made in the design of SC2 but it is still the most competitive game imo. The skill level it takes to play LoL at the top level is almost humorous to the skill level it takes to play SC2 at the top level.

5 million dollars given out for events over the course of season 2 of LoL

I wasn't using one isolated case; I meant worldwide as well. I'd like to see where you're getting your numbers. I'm quite curious to know exactly the difference, haha.

And how are they not totally different? I was under the impression that LoL is DotA based while SC is a more traditional RTS.

~6 mill in EU
11 mill in china
more LoL players than scbw players in the korean PC bangs

 

[rathy Aro]

I just wrote a blog post that seems relevant to the SC2 vs. LoL nonsense going on in here: http://mogwaismusings.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/in-defense-of-lol/

I like impressive mechanics. A lot of people do. Sports like basketball and tennis are dominated by mechanics. I would prefer chess if it had the same complexity plus harder mechanics. A game being mechanically easy is a legitimate criticism.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Technical proficiency is not mechanics. Mechanics are the base skills needed to play the game. In sc2 thats micro, macro, etc. In LoL its much more vague (mostly because they don't have terms like micro and macro, afaik) but things like last hitting, proper spell usage, spacing, etc.

Technical requirements to play the game are totally different. Button presses for the sake of button presses adds no depth to the game. Lcanceling in melee is an example of this; there is never a time when you would rather not lcancel than lcancel. In this way, sc2 is an improvement over bw's interface since you no longer have to needlessly waste your actions selecting buildings or manually rallying workers to minerals.

 

[rathy Aro]

Technical proficiency is not mechanics. Mechanics are the base skills needed to play the game. In sc2 thats micro, macro, etc. In LoL its much more vague (mostly because they don't have terms like micro and macro, afaik) but things like last hitting, proper spell usage, spacing, etc.

Technical requirements to play the game are totally different. Button presses for the sake of button presses adds no depth to the game. Lcanceling in melee is an example of this; there is never a time when you would rather not lcancel than lcancel. In this way, sc2 is an improvement over bw's interface since you no longer have to needlessly waste your actions selecting buildings or manually rallying workers to minerals.

Its not clear to me what your cutoff from mechanics to technical proficiency is. Either way the two seem to be closely related and I see no reason to distinguish.

Based on you L-Cancel example you don't like it because it is always the best option. That is to say, there is no decision made, but if there was a decision to be made then it would be appealing for a reason related to the depth of the game or skill tests of intelligence. That's exactly what I'm not talking about. I like depth of course, but what I'm talking about is just ones ability to execute a difficult action. There's a lot of decision making those goes on before hand, but when you are making a 20 foot, contested, fade away jumper you are attempting a difficult shot and if you make it, it is impressive and you always want to make these. In a traditional fighting game if you hit with the first part of a guaranteed but difficult to execute infinite you always want to do the infinite, but it is impressive when you are able to do this.

I'm not dissing LoL, I just think people should acknowledge that technical skill or mechanics or whatever you like to call it is something people enjoy mastering, executing, and watching. For LoL there isn't much of that going on. Doesn't mean its a bad game.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Its not clear to me what your cutoff from mechanics to technical proficiency is. Either way the two seem to be closely related and I see no reason to distinguish.

In starcraft terms, mechcanics are micro/macro and technical proficiency is being able to preform those actions at 200+ APM. Basically the difference between someone who is playing the game and someone who is just playing. Games that require a lot a button pressing in order to compete mentally are not intended to be played by the masses.



Technical barriers are good for spectators sports, then, but are terrible for games that are intended for everyone to play. Especially in video games, I find creative decisions, perfect timing, and otherwise a well executed strategy to be the most exciting and fulfilling parts. I've played a lot of melee, and the button presses do not excite me. Maybe its because i've already crossed that boundary, but I know that technical proficiency is simply a product of time; it takes basically no thought. Basketball, Tennis, Melee, SSF4, SC2, BW, WC3. Judge the game only by the strategical value, not the technical.

 

[Lazzarrath]

In starcraft terms, mechcanics are micro/macro and technical proficiency is being able to preform those actions at 200+ APM. Basically the difference between someone who is playing the game and someone who is just playing. Games that require a lot a button pressing in order to compete mentally are not intended to be played by the masses.



Technical barriers are good for spectators sports, then, but are terrible for games that are intended for everyone to play. Especially in video games, I find creative decisions, perfect timing, and otherwise a well executed strategy to be the most exciting and fulfilling parts. I've played a lot of melee, and the button presses do not excite me. Maybe its because i've already crossed that boundary, but I know that technical proficiency is simply a product of time; it takes basically no thought. Basketball, Tennis, Melee, SSF4, SC2, BW, WC3. Judge the game only by the strategical value, not the technical.

this is true to some degree, but the technical barriers are largely responsible for the game's skill ceiling, bw had a really annoying interface, but it was because of that interface that the game demanded such a high level of mechanics. One of the big worries I hear about sc2 from old wc3 and bw players is that the game will have a very low skill ceiling thanks to the fact that it is so much easier to have good mechanics in sc2. In part because of the lower mechanical ceiling in sc2 you see a lot of amateurs and "ladder" players being able to take games off of pros, where in bw or wc3 you would almost never see something like that happen. while the mechanics of the game may not be interesting to execute, for me personally there is a great sense of excitement or pride when I can see my skills increase in these areas. For example I am a noob at smash but when I can execute a tough move/combo or see myself improve in the areas of "mechanics" I feel really proud of myself. If nothing else mechanics allows you in some capacity to measure your progress as a player up to a certain point.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

actually, BW was a great game because its strategical value was very high. I don't think anyone complains about chess skill ceiling (whatever that means) and its the least technical game imaginable. Even monopoly has more tech skill than chess.

The only thing the technical barrier does is say "you can't begin to out think me, and thus beat me, until you can press as many buttons as me". As that is minimized, smart players can beat other smart players, more by understanding the game and less by having to press a million buttons. Skill barriers are just a way to keep the casual player down.


Also, anyone who says there is a low skill ceiling in sc2 simply has no clue wtf they are talking about. For one, sc2 is actually a faster game than BW. Two, Simply from an APM standpoint, any APM that is no longer needed for macro due to a better interface can now be used on better army control, positioning, etc. Basically, since there is less filler APM being burned, players can now do more actual strategy and tactics. Btw, word on the street is april is the month the BW players are switching to sc2.

 

[Zankoku]

imo the issues of SC2 stem from a number of minor things, like units being too good at killing things fast and potentially broken mechanics such as Warp In causing balancing nightmares that force said mechanics to become a necessity to standing a chance. It's not so much a low skill ceiling as interesting tricks and tactics just being sheared away by overwhelming efficiency of certain things. Dunno though, I'm not at a level of play where I can claim to know these things for sure.

I agree with Sveet that people complaining about SC2 being too easy to play are being fuddy duddies. An interface should not be intentionally difficult to use just to create some artificial measure of skill.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah i agree with those complaints Norn. Units in SC2 are kinda... boring. HotS might solve these problems tho, between new unique units and the remade engine.

 

[M@v]

Lol, my marine/tank/medevac playstyle is complete and utter trash . So bad at it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Did anyone catch the update blog thing thats on battle.net website? Basically, blizz is promising a LAN substitute, chat windows similar to old bnet and custom game system similar to wc3's.... Am i dreaming?

 

[Lazzarrath]

Did anyone catch the update blog thing thats on battle.net website? Basically, blizz is promising a LAN substitute, chat windows similar to old bnet and custom game system similar to wc3's.... Am i dreaming?

yeah I heard about that a little while ago, sounds pretty interesting, personally I am just hoping they bring back the wc3 clan system. I miss that system so much...
plus the bnet tournaments for wc3 were also pretty cool. no idea when they would do this though, I have to imagine it would probably come out with hots :/

while the depth of strategy was pretty extreme in bw, in the foreign scene you had a number of players who got by purely with mechanics, by their own word. While technical barriers do drive away casual players, it does make for a better competitive scene at the highest level.

 

[sakuraZaKi]

So how long does it take for you guys to max out?

Its really hard for me to, lol.

 

[Zankoku]

Max out in a vacuum, or against a real player?

 

[sakuraZaKi]

Both, I suppose.

 

[Lazzarrath]

you can usually max out by 12 minutes with just about every race but it's not very realistic, stephano maxes out around 11 minutes in zvp but that is assuming the toss puts on no pressure

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

ZvP is the only MU that a race can max in 12 mins (realistically). And Stephano can max in 12 even with pressure. His build is designed to keep Zerg safe from all harass and pressure without having to sacrifice any droning or econ. His build is only viable against FFE and the main goal is just to trade your army for either the Protoss third or the Protoss entire army. Pretty unstoppable at high levels, Stephano only loses to like MC and few other Koreans. For everyone else on ladder it seems manageable because most can't do it correctly or still let pressure effect/delay.

But yeah max out timing really isnt saying much. in a vaccuum you could do it real real early since you could just get 3 bases nothing but econ and once you have 70 - 80 workers pump out nothing but units. However this isn't realistic in any MU but ZvP if the toss FFE.

 

[sakuraZaKi]

Update with new units for HotS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=q4nNfZwwhYg

Damn it.

 

[Life]

Just got the game a few weeks ago and I'm taking my time with it.

Is it worth sticking around Practice League or no? The game's slightly different there 'cause of the rocks and less speed so I'm not sure if it's actually worthwhile practice compared to just doing something like filter's benchmarks or other such drills in a custom game, or just laddering even if it sticks me in bronze.

 

[Zankoku]

I believe even Coop vs AI is better practice than Practice League. Practice League is good for seeing all the units in the game first, I suppose.

 

[F1SHY]

dont play practice league the speed ruins the game for you, just find a few builds you like and ladder / play customs