Starcraft 2 (Info on first post!)

[Fortress | Sveet]

Play through the campaign to learn the units then skip to league play. Don't focus on your record at all. IMO bronze thru mid-diamond are "playing the game wrong", or at least thats how it was last i played. You will make mistakes and probably lose a million games. If you can look past your bottom line, one day you will suddenly stop losing and shoot into masters.

 

[Life]

Alright, thanks for the answers, think I'll just get a build down and then do my placement matches.

 

[Zankoku]

That's definitely one of the best approaches to learning competitive play. Good luck!

 

[sakuraZaKi]

So I finally summed up the courage to ladder today, and I say with confidence that I lost every single match, lol.

Got 4-gated, 6-pooled. Got played by a masters with a bronze account, lol. Now all I need to be is cannon rushed xD

I actually don't mind losing, but do you guys have any personal steps that you take to get better? Do you write down certain things to work on, etc.?

EDIT:

I guess after this post, I won 3 matches in a row. Had my first base race in those, too. My heart couldn't stop beating hard.

Kinda scared though, lol. I felt better losing.

 

[Pakman]

The best advice I can give you is always take something away from any losses that happen. Did you get too greedy and expand too soon? Did you lose because you didn't scout well? Was your army composition missing something?

If you can't pinpoint what lost you the game. Watch the replay and try to figure it out. Watch what your opponent did and think "What could I have done to beat that?" Learning from each game is more important than winning.

 

[sakuraZaKi]

Thanks, I did notice in my other games that I need to scout for expansions.

It's kinda hard to pay attention to everything going on.

 

[Frolossus]

Thanks, I did notice in my other games that I need to scout for expansions.

It's kinda hard to pay attention to everything going on.

put a marine zealot or zergling at each base they can expo to

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

Anyone here still play? I wanna work on some new builds/timings in a few MUs. Anyone down for some games sometime? (preferably AT LEAST plat 1v1 skill level), if anyone is down hit me up, KingLumps.931

 

[terr13]

What matchups in particular?

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

need to work on my PvT mainly, transitioning from 2 base collosus for the 10 min medivac push to 3rd base + ht/storm is a little tricky. Terran seems to have a window where ht with storm isn't done and can either take out the third or just win.

I guess I could work on PvP against stargate/phoenix openers since that is extremely annoying to deal with.

 

[Jane]

hi guys. have become a really big fan of sc as of late. going to attempt to get into the game as a competitor, but of course i'll be garbage for a long time. its ok though. main zerg. i enjoy watching both sc2 and bw.

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

so who's pumped for HoTS!?! Can't wait to play it in 5 years....

 

[Jane]

i am very excited for regular speed off-creep hydras, lol.

also excited because it gives me a reason to buy another full copy of the game because i want to change my name (again).

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

you get a free name change every so often, I've changed my name like 4 times now for free.

And I can't wait for protoss air, ****'s gonna be broken, Tempest having a 22 range... 22... 22!!!!! TWENTY TWO!!!!!!!!!!!! T W E N T Y - T W O ! ! ! ! ! soooooo broken. I mean, collosus with range have 9 lololololololololol. Can't wait to take my 6 tempest to a corner of the map use the new broken ability toss has to basically scan like terran does and then just **** on bases from a mile away in a isolated corner hahahahahahaha

Also getting my 'mothership' at 20 supply is awesome ahaha

Ah but really anyone who is complaining about balance in HoTS (everyone in the blizzard forums) has a low IQ.

 

[Jane]

interesting. do you know how often exactly? because i changed my name like, a month ago.

 

[Zankoku]

I think the Tempest is crap, personally. Like, sure, it has absurd range, but its DPS is bad, it costs 300/300, takes forever to build, and takes up 6 supply. It doesn't even have splash, so if the Terran decides to just build a bunch of bio and kill you, the Tempest isn't really in a position to save you.

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

well aisight, your first mistake is even trying to debate sc when you don't play competitively, kinda like when you said 'it's impossible to perfect macro'.

Second off, every terran and their mother is going to go mech in HoTS, they all hate bio play now and terran is facotry dependent in HoTS.

Third, Protoss *****, and I mean ***** Terran bio hardcore... Have you ever seen what it looks like when Toss lategames engages a bio heavy army? **** that is all, storm collosus, chargelots under guardian shield, archons...

Fourth, have fun running all your bio through my zealot shield 6 range stalkers 9 range collosus, all to get to my 22 range units... if you have any left that is.

fifth, you play computers

:Kobe:

 

[Zankoku]

I'd feel more like responding to anything that might be valid in that if 80% of it weren't just ad hominem.

Suffice it to say if a Terran is stuck on nothing but bio against a Protoss who's fully traversed two separate tech trees into different tier 3 units then he deserves to get massacred.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Do they even have a ****ing beta out for HotS yet?

I don't think you can say that any of the three factions are going to be doing much of anything yet. This is a Blizzard game, a lot of **** could change from point A to point B.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Zankoku]

True enough, the Tempest was an anti-Mutalisk unit with massive splash back during the Blizzcon preview, and the Replicant existed.

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

soooooo what is your argument here again then? Tempest is not gonna be an type of early game unit at all. It is gonna be a late midgame, lategame unit....

The fact that you seem to think people are going to just open straight into tempest without any other units just proves a lack of understanding when it comes to an RTS.

Also you mentioned 1... 1 MU of 3. Banelings suck against Protoss, guess they are completely worthless unit and have no use in ANY mu.

You really should just have actual experience playing a game competitively before you talk about it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

And I think you should actually play the expansion before you tout things as absolute fact!

Smooth Criminal

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

Whether or not the expansion is out is not relevant. This is merely a 'do you actual play, understand the RTS genre' issue. There is no RTS where you can rush a top tier unit and win (consistently), that's a giving. So the fact that I have to clarify this is sad.

Also Smooth Criminal a beta has been out for a long time, long long time. If you haven't been watching any beta streams and are trying to talk about HoTS, even more sad.

Sorry should clarify I meant closed beta, but a while ago they were giving out 250 passes for the open beta, which I'm not sure if it's out yet, but I'm guessing it is or will be very shortly seeing as this was a while ago.

 

[Zankoku]

You seem to have put more effort into making points instead of just attacking me, so here I'll go.

soooooo what is your argument here again then? Tempest is not gonna be an type of early game unit at all. It is gonna be a late midgame, lategame unit....

The fact that you seem to think people are going to just open straight into tempest without any other units just proves a lack of understanding when it comes to an RTS.

Yes, the Tempest is a late-game tier 3 6-supply unit that requires a Stargate and a Fleet Beacon. The Colossus is a late-game tier 3 6-supply unit that requires a Robotics Facility and a Robotics Bay. To put things into perspective, when reaching max supply (and ignoring mineral/gas expenses), each Colossus or Tempest produced is three fewer Stalkers, Zealots, or Sentries that can hold up the front line. Even in the endgame, putting the time and supply into both would likely spread the army supply rather thin, unless you only made one or two Tempests (more likely), or only made one or two Colossi (less likely).

One or two Tempests would certainly spark an opponent to act, but it doesn't seem like a very strong checkmate; so late into the game, Terrans can probably afford to spend a scan to snipe the Observer spotting for the harass, Zerg can make a detector for virtually free with a Viper, and Protoss obviously have Observers.

In a direct engagement, the Tempest doesn't sound particularly strong defensively compared to another Colossus, or another three Gateway units (though this is just guesswork based on its stats given to us), though the offensive side certainly would enjoy having initial fire both when advancing and retreating... In effect, I feel that the Tempest might have some use for breaking the late-game split-map stalemate, but who knows? Would just as much supply invested in Colossi/Archons/HT and a Mothership be just as effective? I mean, we are replacing the nearly completely unused Carrier here, but still.

The other use I see for the Tempest is countering Brood Lords and Vipers, but that's kind of an expensive and slow path to build a counter.

Also you mentioned 1... 1 MU of 3. Banelings suck against Protoss, guess they are completely worthless unit and have no use in ANY mu.

iirc Banelings have seen use in ZvP, just not until late game with a bunch of ground units supporting the Overlords dropping them.

You really should just have actual experience playing a game competitively before you talk about it.

If my experience with competitive SC2 briefly laddering and playing with CSL players back at UofM and various Smash players in this thread is so outdated that it's now the norm for Protoss to craft a death ball of Colossi supported by Carriers, or Zerg to strike with a mass of Ultralisks and Brood Lords at the same time, then I'll concede my points. However, as far as I've seen and played, people usually focus on one tier 3 before tech switching into the other.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

He didn't make much of a point to me considering that there isn't a global, open beta for the game yet and all he has to go off is theorycrafting HotS units and how they'll be implemented. It's okay to say that you have an idea of how something might work, but it's another to say "x is going to work like this."

A lot of stuff is going to change.

Smooth Criminal

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

You seem to have put more effort into making points instead of just attacking me, so here I'll go.


Yes, the Tempest is a late-game tier 3 6-supply unit that requires a Stargate and a Fleet Beacon. The Colossus is a late-game tier 3 6-supply unit that requires a Robotics Facility and a Robotics Bay. To put things into perspective, when reaching max supply (and ignoring mineral/gas expenses), each Colossus or Tempest produced is three fewer Stalkers, Zealots, or Sentries that can hold up the front line. Even in the endgame, putting the time and supply into both would likely spread the army supply rather thin, unless you only made one or two Tempests (more likely), or only made one or two Colossi (less likely).

One or two Tempests would certainly spark an opponent to act, but it doesn't seem like a very strong checkmate; so late into the game, Terrans can probably afford to spend a scan to snipe the Observer spotting for the harass, Zerg can make a detector for virtually free with a Viper, and Protoss obviously have Observers.

In a direct engagement, the Tempest doesn't sound particularly strong defensively compared to another Colossus, or another three Gateway units (though this is just guesswork based on its stats given to us), though the offensive side certainly would enjoy having initial fire both when advancing and retreating... In effect, I feel that the Tempest might have some use for breaking the late-game split-map stalemate, but who knows? Would just as much supply invested in Colossi/Archons/HT and a Mothership be just as effective? I mean, we are replacing the nearly completely unused Carrier here, but still.

The other use I see for the Tempest is countering Brood Lords and Vipers, but that's kind of an expensive and slow path to build a counter.


iirc Banelings have seen use in ZvP, just not until late game with a bunch of ground units supporting the Overlords dropping them.


If my experience with competitive SC2 briefly laddering and playing with CSL players back at UofM and various Smash players in this thread is so outdated that it's now the norm for Protoss to craft a death ball of Colossi supported by Carriers, or Zerg to strike with a mass of Ultralisks and Brood Lords at the same time, then I'll concede my points. However, as far as I've seen and played, people usually focus on one tier 3 before tech switching into the other.

You don't know what your talking about... First to get more than 3 collosus in any MU besides PvP is dumb and is asking to lose.

Second, your never gonna straight up fight with nothing but tempest, that's like getting only tanks....

Third, PvT is a perfect example of 2 different tech paths, ht and collosus... soooo yeeeeeaaaaa..... also for a while in PvZ collosus VR was a powerful tactic. Current PvZ lategame for Zerg is BL/Infestor/Corrupter, lategame terran in TvP is MMMVG, lategame PvZ is archon/stalker/ht/mothership (maybe 1 or 2 colossus), so clearly multi tech paths is the norm. Sure not in the first 10 minutes, but if the game goes to lategame (which basically always happens when it comes to good players), and tbh ultralisks are reaaaaaallly bad which is why zergs rarely get them. Terran has no real tier 3 units other than ghosts which are more 2.5 (BC are as realistic as Carriers, yes they **** but only when you start to mass them, that's why carrier and BC aren't gotten until super super late game when you have resources spilling out your ***) The problem with Terran tier 3 is that it requires you to go mech which is very frail and hard to reproduce in WoL

and again when I'm talking about the tempest shooting your base there is no need for an observer at all, i think it is the oracle that has the ability to grant you the vision that any building has. so you just use the ability to look at a building in your opponents base and shell away.

Lastly, banelings are still considered bad against protoss, sure you can try to bane rain but its not good, archons destroy bane rain drops as they soak up tons of damage and can usually destroy all the OLs holding the banes. The only 'viable' comp with banes in ZvP is lategames ultra/infestor/banelings but even this isn't that great as immortal/ht/archon is pretty big counter. The standard for lategame Zerg is BL/Infestor/Corrupter

 

[Zankoku]

You don't know what your talking about... First to get more than 3 collosus in any MU besides PvP is dumb and is asking to lose.

A 2-base 3-Colossus timing is certainly strong, but if aiming for an endgame composition I'm not sure why you would stop at 3 unless they're already making Vikings/Corruptors to stop it. Making more Colossi would punish a Terran putting too much into Ghosts and not enough into Vikings, or a Zerg morphing too many Brood Lords and not leaving enough Corruptors.

Second, your never gonna straight up fight with nothing but tempest, that's like getting only tanks....

Not sure when I ever said otherwise, but I agree completely. I'll also note, however, that "only tanks" probably heavily trumps "only tempest" in viability, even as a complete joke of a build.

Third, PvT is a perfect example of 2 different tech paths, ht and collosus... soooo yeeeeeaaaaa..... also for a while in PvZ collosus VR was a powerful tactic. Current PvZ lategame for Zerg is BL/Infestor/Corrupter, lategame terran in TvP is MMMVG, lategame PvZ is archon/stalker/ht/mothership (maybe 1 or 2 colossus), so clearly multi tech paths is the norm. Sure not in the first 10 minutes, but if the game goes to lategame (which basically always happens when it comes to good players), and tbh ultralisks are reaaaaaallly bad which is why zergs rarely get them. Terran has no real tier 3 units other than ghosts which are more 2.5 (BC are as realistic as Carriers, yes they **** but only when you start to mass them, that's why carrier and BC aren't gotten until super super late game when you have resources spilling out your ***) The problem with Terran tier 3 is that it requires you to go mech which is very frail and hard to reproduce in WoL

HT and Colossus is the only example of mixing two completely different late-game techs, but the HT is 2 supply. VR only needs Stargate (and is roughly as much of an investment as Immortals), Infestation Pit is kind of a requirement to reach Brood Lords, etc. Multiple tech paths are definitely the norm, but I don't think multiple late late game techs happen that often. The closest I've seen lately has been massing Brood Lords against Terran and then immediately replacing the lost supply with Ultralisks now that the Terran's supply is so heavily invested into Vikings; which as you mentioned, Ultralisks are kinda underperforming lately. And HTs with Colossi, of course, but HTs aren't as slow, supply-intensive, or expensive to replace as Colossi, Tempests, or Motherships. Well, this might change, if they reduce the Tempest's build time from 75 seconds.

and again when I'm talking about the tempest shooting your base there is no need for an observer at all, i think it is the oracle that has the ability to grant you the vision that any building has. so you just use the ability to look at a building in your opponents base and shell away.

I forgot about the Oracle's vision granting ability, so this might have some merit.

Tempests shelling away at a base is rather awkward; 49 damage is pretty dangerous for a unit (and one-shots workers), but it's certainly not going to be ruining structures any time soon. Not quickly enough to force an action, anyway. Maybe worker harass with, of all things, a capital ship, has some use? ....Maybe.

Lastly, banelings are still considered bad against protoss, sure you can try to bane rain but its not good, archons destroy bane rain drops as they soak up tons of damage and can usually destroy all the OLs holding the banes. The only 'viable' comp with banes in ZvP is lategames ultra/infestor/banelings but even this isn't that great as immortal/ht/archon is pretty big counter. The standard for lategame Zerg is BL/Infestor/Corrupter

Okay.

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

no, sorry I know where you're coming from but more than 3 colossus is considered bad, 3 is the magic number, lategame PvT Terran sacs about 40-50 workers builds mass orbitals and gain a huge army lead so colossus don't help too much endgame, they are needed but aren't the real damage dealers, Colossus in PvT are used to stop the 10 - 11 minute medivac push, after you hold that you wanna get your third and ht with storm asap because with just colossus and tier 1 gateway units your colossus get pummeled by vikings, and you need archons and storm to help. In lategame PvT it is ghost vs high templar, feedback vs emp. It's quite fun and challenging actually.

PvZ colossus are good up until hive tech, they can help a little at the beginning of the BL/Infestor/Corrupter transition, but BLs are actually kind of a counter to anything that doesn't shoot up and even a lot of things that do shoot up especially combined with infestor FG (I wince just thinking of the BL/infestor army)

I'm not saying Tempest are gonna be some uber broken the game is pointless unit. I just think it is nice that protoss finally have a siege unit. Terran have siege tanks, Zerg has BL and now the swarm host, its nice that protoss has a something like that, the closest thing they have is colossus which are great but not in mass like tanks/BL/ and possibly swarm host. In theory (and with a 22 range, in reality) you should be able to make maybe 5 and never lose them unless you lose the game. you can just keep them really far away and let them shell away in an engagement. I mean with a 22 range I'm sure a lot of interesting strats will be seen.

I made the mistake of not seeing that your were talking tier 3 tech paths, yes it is true that you don't often see multi tech choices outside of colossus/ht/archon, but I do not feel that the reason to this is the cost/time, more the 'is it viable' factor. Ultras get owned by almost everything, terran tier 3 is mech which is frail and hard to reproduce (although literally unstoppable if they start to get close to max). Mech is just bad in low numbers which is why it isn't good.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

LOL you don't need to play a game competitively to know what you're talking about, that's like saying that only players in the NBA have any credibility when discussing the NBA. That's just obviously untrue. Get a different argument.

 

[JonathantheMeSa]

LOLOLOL that's the dumbest thing I've heard and makes no sense. You're comparison would only be valid if I had said 'only Code S players in the GSL could talk about it'. I simply said only those who play the game should try to argue about it. Would you say someone who has never played basketball or played 2 pick up games when they were a kid can offer valid arguments about player strength and team strategy in the NBA? lol think before you speak, just cuz you have some fancy little smash title does NOT mean you know **** about other games... from what I can tell, arrogance comes with the smash mod territory...

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Way to take his point way out of context, bro.

P.S.

He's not a moderator or anything like that.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Zankoku]

Admittedly if I'd never played the game competitively and my entire history with the game was grinding Coop vs AI I wouldn't have much place discussing it, but even that's not the case here. The only one displaying arrogance right now is you.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

LOLOLOL that's the dumbest thing I've heard and makes no sense. You're comparison would only be valid if I had said 'only Code S players in the GSL could talk about it'. I simply said only those who play the game should try to argue about it. Would you say someone who has never played basketball or played 2 pick up games when they were a kid can offer valid arguments about player strength and team strategy in the NBA? lol think before you speak, just cuz you have some fancy little smash title does NOT mean you know **** about other games... from what I can tell, arrogance comes with the smash mod territory...

You're a ****ing idiot.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If my experience with competitive SC2 briefly laddering and playing with CSL players back at UofM and various Smash players in this thread is so outdated that it's now the norm for Protoss to craft a death ball of Colossi supported by Carriers, or Zerg to strike with a mass of Ultralisks and Brood Lords at the same time, then I'll concede my points. However, as far as I've seen and played, people usually focus on one tier 3 before tech switching into the other.

turned on catz' stream and remembered this post

 

[Jane]

catz does silly things though

 

[Lazzarrath]

it's not that uncommon tbh, a lot of zergs going for super quick hive(12-13 minutes) on 3 base will often throw down an ultra den and greater spire at the same time, drg does that almost every zvt he plays. It is true though that they won't usually begin broods and ultras at the exact same time, but it's far from unusual to see broods and ultras in the late game

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

'cause one you got infestors you cant lose

 

[sakuraZaKi]

So from what I've personally tried out (and read) the VR owns Carriers. Yet I've seen Her0 mass Carriers against Zerg in the late game, in which he lost.

I know that I must be overlooking something. Why would he opt for Carriers over VRs?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

some people think they are useful


They can be pretty **** if you happen to get like 15 of them somehow (idk how u can afford the supply)

 

[sakuraZaKi]

Had the sickest ending to a 4v4 (Monobattle).

Feedback rain on mass Phoenix. Most beautiful thing I've ever seen in a Starcraft game, IMO.