Stage Information Database and Q&A

[Ghostbone]

And I proposed that I could get a 256 man tournament to have Mario Bros. legal.

I should still try that.... to the AVCon forums!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

AVCon is the largest Smash tourney in the southern hemisphere I think, lol.

 

[Ghostbone]

It gets more people than MLG could...

 

[T-block]

Man I just tried looking for this in Brawl In-Depth =x

 

[Raziek]

Subscriptions are the way to go.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So uh... how about cleaning up those stickies? Half of them can probably be coalesced into "stage builder central" or something like that or just be nuked ("stage builder" is so outdated, and did OS's thread ever go anywhere?), a few of the rest could probably be combined... There's just a ridiculously large number of them.

 

[Raziek]

Yeah, I was kinda thinking that the other day, when I realized I had to SCROLL to get past the stickies.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So uh... how about cleaning up those stickies? Half of them can probably be coalesced into "stage builder central" or something like that or just be nuked ("stage builder" is so outdated, and did OS's thread ever go anywhere?), a few of the rest could probably be combined... There's just a ridiculously large number of them.

I'll work on this another time.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I loved the Mario Bros. thread. We can only hope that Rumble Falls will be arguable. :D

 

[Life]

Glad to see we've moved into a good home now.

Also, we get two character postbits now? When did that happen?

 

[Spelt]

a few days ago

 

[-LzR-]

I would like to research all stages and I know a lot about dumb stages too.

 

[PMC66]

excuse me i need an answer to an honest question.

why on god's green earth is brinstar legal and please give me an answer which isn't 'because we say so' I want to know what kind of horrifying logic went into the decision making process.

in my opinion Brinstar covers the excessive skewed match-ups(over-centralizing)
part of the ban criteria Meta Knight is incredibly dominant there Wolf vs MK is basically unwinable for wolf , from what i've heard other characters get screwed the way wolf does as well such as DK and Fox and alot of MK's closer to even MU's become alot more in his favor like snake, falco, the list of characters (from my knowledge) that are hindered by having this stage legal far outweigh the list of characters that are beneffited from this stage. To me this stage's only real reason for existance is to help meta knight and make Jigglypuff suck less, I know wario is good in certain MU's here as is Zero suit samus but Meta knight does alot better than they do.

I don't consider myself conservative with stage lists i like the idea of having alot of stages and if more were legal i wouldn't mind as much that brinstar was still legal as it opens up tactics and a variety of ways of playing and encourages competetive smashers to adapt to a different environment and make use of different skills. But with Frigate and Rainbow cruise also Legal theres little wonder why Meta Knight dominates the US meta game the way he does, but on those stages though the MU's for characters become alot harder it's not as if someone who does respectable against meta knight suddenly gets an unwinable matchup. But on Brinstar I feel this is definetly the case i'm not just saying it's because i'm a wolf main and i don't want to fight MK on this stage, but if any character goes from being able to do respectable against someone like MK to going straight into 'may as well forfeit' territory then something is seriously wrong.

 

[Ghostbone]

Why shouldn't MK get a strong counter-pick? He's a character that is very good on certain stages.
Also there are other characters that could counter-pick Brinstar, not just MK. (G&W, Wario, Kirby, a bunch of characters against IC, etc.)
You also have your stage ban, so you can ban it against him. (similar to how you can ban FD against Ice Climbers) Though I'll admit having both Brinstar and RC legal with only one stage ban can be a little ridiculous.

And finally evidence has shown that while MK is indeed very strong he is still beatable on Brinstar.

 

[Tesh]

You'd probably wind up with just as much evidence that Sonic and Fox are beatable on Temple Hyrule.

 

[BSP]

excuse me i need an answer to an honest question.

why on god's green earth is brinstar legal and please give me an answer which isn't 'because we say so' I want to know what kind of horrifying logic went into the decision making process.

in my opinion Brinstar covers the excessive skewed match-ups(over-centralizing)
part of the ban criteria Meta Knight is incredibly dominant there Wolf vs MK is basically unwinable for wolf , from what i've heard other characters get screwed the way wolf does as well such as DK and Fox and alot of MK's closer to even MU's become alot more in his favor like snake, falco, the list of characters (from my knowledge) that are hindered by having this stage legal far outweigh the list of characters that are beneffited from this stage. To me this stage's only real reason for existance is to help meta knight and make Jigglypuff suck less, I know wario is good in certain MU's here as is Zero suit samus but Meta knight does alot better than they do.

I don't consider myself conservative with stage lists i like the idea of having alot of stages and if more were legal i wouldn't mind as much that brinstar was still legal as it opens up tactics and a variety of ways of playing and encourages competetive smashers to adapt to a different environment and make use of different skills. But with Frigate and Rainbow cruise also Legal theres little wonder why Meta Knight dominates the US meta game the way he does, but on those stages though the MU's for characters become alot harder it's not as if someone who does respectable against meta knight suddenly gets an unwinable matchup. But on Brinstar I feel this is definetly the case i'm not just saying it's because i'm a wolf main and i don't want to fight MK on this stage, but if any character goes from being able to do respectable against someone like MK to going straight into 'may as well forfeit' territory then something is seriously wrong.

Raziek get at 'im

But seriously, again, complaint stemming from MK >_>

 

[Spelt]

we make complaints stemming from individual characters all the time.
why is mk so special?
if anything mk related arguments should be MORE relevant.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

All right, name me a non-MK, warranted character complaint.

 

[WindMajor]

Snake's tilts are a mistake and they make Toon Link shake in his boots.

 

[Ghostbone]

All right, name me a non-MK, warranted character complaint.

Dedede's infinites.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I mean stage-related.

 

[Ghostbone]

Wario on Hanenbow maybe?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Pit on Mario Bros, possibly.

 

[PMC66]

Why shouldn't MK get a strong counter-pick? He's a character that is very good on certain stages.
Also there are other characters that could counter-pick Brinstar, not just MK. (G&W, Wario, Kirby, a bunch of characters against IC, etc.)
You also have your stage ban, so you can ban it against him. (similar to how you can ban FD against Ice Climbers) Though I'll admit having both Brinstar and RC legal with only one stage ban can be a little ridiculous.

And finally evidence has shown that while MK is indeed very strong he is still beatable on Brinstar.

yes but the characters that do well on that stage are a minority Meta Knight is way better than everyone else there, your argument for the fact that I complained meta Knight does too well here so he should be allowed a strong counterpick well thing he has 3 and one of them makes it so certain characters have flat out unwinable matches against him. did you listen to the after match commentary of Ally VS M2K before Apex 2010? Also i ban this stage every single time because i think it's unfair and the thought of playing on this stage is laughable when stages which benefit ground based characters are all banned it creates in balance in the meta game alot like what has already happened. I am aware the stage isn't random as the timings for when the acid comes up is specific but wouldn't characters with more than 5 jumps just be able to stall the hell out of this stage. You want a complain other than MK how about Jigglypuff she can stall the hell out of this stage by just planking and flying away.

MK beatable on brinstar depends on which character you are but like i said some characters purely and simply can't win and thats literally down to the stage mechanics and how it benefits Meta Knight. and one argument i heard is 'if we allow Jungle Japes then it balances it out' well thing it 2 wrongs don't make a right but i'm not going to argue for banning japes right now i want to focus on the reasoning for allowing brinstar in tournament play.

Also the main argument for banning shadow moses stemmed from DDD well DDD is beatable there depending on who you are but the majority of the cast get screwed over alot like how MK screws characters over on brinstar (albeit not as extreme) so why would you ban shadow moses purely because one character breaks the game and allow another stage be legal for a character that breaks the game there? (it's what it seems like to me I am perfectly aware there are other reasons for banning shadow moses and i am not saying it should be allowed I agree that it should be banned but hopefully you understand the type of argument i am trying to convey to you).

right thats my counter argument who's next?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

There are characters who beat MK there.

Personally it's where I go as GaW.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If MK is so unbeatable there, could you please link me to the results of a tournament (preferably tournaments) with that stage legal to prove it?

Oh, and Jigglypuff can plank most characters to death on any stage, Brinstar isn't that amazing for her.

In regards to your Shadow Moses Island example, SMI should be legal too. Every stage should, in fact.

Brinstar isn't a very good G&W stage, SD o_O Frigate and Rainbow Ride are much better.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Y'know, if MK is completely unbeatable... perhaps it's the character that's the problem.

 

[PMC66]

If MK is so unbeatable there, could you please link me to the results of a tournament (preferably tournaments) with that stage legal to prove it?

Oh, and Jigglypuff can plank most characters to death on any stage, Brinstar isn't that amazing for her.

i don't have a link for results but i got this Ally went from being around even with M2K in the other matches to being flat out destroyed by nado spam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97DyM1mWD10

she does better on Brinstar though as she can stall within the rules very effectively when the acid isn't there she can hide under the stage, if it rises up she can camp in the corners on most stages she only has planking and going underneath the stages on brinstar she can literally camp the corners as well with the acid is at certain levels against alot of the cast. i'm afraid i could pick any tournament in US where MK dominated the results with brinstar allowed I don't think that argument would really go anywhere. Besides the majority of people I know feel that having RC Frigate and Brinstar with only 1 stage ban is very biased towards meta Knight indeed in this thread one response i got against my argument for brinstar just expressed this sentiment.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Are you really telling me how to play Jigglypuff? LOL.

And... yeah, it's one of Snake's worst stages, lol. He should've banned it.

If these results are so numerous you should be able to easily find them, I'm happy to wait for you to do so.

And it isn't "biased towards Meta Knight", Meta Knight is just a REALLY good character who is good on a lot of stages. I could just as easily say that having FD, SV and BF legal is biased towards Falco, Diddy Kong and Ice Climbers.

 

[PMC66]

Are you really telling me how to play Jigglypuff? LOL.

And... yeah, it's one of Snake's worst stages, lol. He should've banned it.

If these results are so numerous you should be able to easily find them, I'm happy to wait for you to do so.

And it isn't "biased towards Meta Knight", Meta Knight is just a REALLY good character who is good on a lot of stages. I could just as easily say that having FD, SV and BF legal is biased towards Falco, Diddy Kong and Ice Climbers.

yeah but what would getting all the results where meta knight won prove? that and if i did i'd be sat there getting links for a whole afternoon which at the moment i don't feel like doing.

MK is broken on brinstar he's the only character in the game whereby wolf gets an unwinable MU literally because of fighting him on brinstar it's just wolf, but DK,Fox can't beat him there at all, Mario can't win DDD has it incredibly tough but barely winnable Diddy is in the same boat as snake, DDD. In that their matchups are almost unwinable as opposed to unwinable in this current meta game MK is the only character whereby a non banned stage benefits a character to such a horrifying extent. thing is people won't practice the characters they got that don't do well against Mk there they'll just go meta knight alot like what TKD did against Tyrant a while back. This stage benefits Meta Knight TOO Much i'm willing to admit that not every character has an unwinable MU against him and the ones that go to pretty much 90-10 with MK are low tier or wolf but surely everyone must have an MU against MK there which is at least as bad as 60-40 i'd imagine that if wolf and fox did that bad then surely Falco would could possibly be as bad as 90-10 (I apologise if that figure may be an exageration). Poor Olimar as well I can't imagine him having anything around 70-30 and I remember someone once posting 65-35 is winable if your opponent sand bags and 70-30 being put the controller down or forfeit. Also a stage that hinders about 27 characters in the game but benefits about 6 situationally and makes 2 amazingly annoying/broken would come under over centralising.

Also your a jiggs main of course you'll want brinstar legal

I main meta Knight and I aprove above this message for banning of brinstar

 

[Raziek]

All I have to say to this line of argument is....

You considered Frigate a hard CP for MK. Your argument is invalid.

 

[Blacknight99923]

All I have to say to this line of argument is....

You considered Frigate a hard CP for MK. Your argument is invalid.

All I see from this post is you thinking you know more than someone else for what reason? You disagree? You think anyone who disagrees with you is dumb LOL?

"your argument is invalid"

Do you actually KNOW what metaknight can do here? In several match ups such as olimar(although olimar does get more purples here so this may be subject to debate) Diddy Kong, maybe falco match ups metaknight gains EXTREMELY powerful tools to name just a FEW advantages.

 

[Raziek]

Darn, someone got to it before I could make a serious response.

In actuality, the simple reason not to ban Brinstar is because there's absolutely nothing wrong with the stage itself. As a quality of the stage, it enables sharking, and rewards stage control.

The problem that arises is that MK as a CHARACTER gains heavy advantages from the stage, to the point of "debatable" degeneracy. I personally disagree with that notion, but it is the common argument.

Further, MK already breaks virtually every stage in the game, but we've limited SOME of that with arbitrary rules like the LGL and the scrooging rule.

Point being, if MK is the reason to ban a stage, I'm not really convinced, since he breaks everything.

Frigate is NOT broken for MK, Soren, that's really dumb to even say that. It's a CP, but not even CLOSE to auto-win.

 

[Ghostbone]

Counterpicking Olimar to Frigate isn't really a good idea.

He ***** on the second transformation which is generally the one that's going to be on most of the time.

And his recovery is bad generally because you can just grab the ledge, all Frigate does is allow you to not grab the ledge, as it's not there.

Brinstar isn't a very good G&W stage, SD o_O Frigate and Rainbow Ride are much better.

Brinstar is a great G&W stage lol. It's better than Frigate though RC is better than it yes.

 

[Tesh]

I find MK to be somewhat manageable on Rainbow Cruise and Delfino, And I know some characters can handle him fine on frigate. If you ban Brinstar vs MK, you can probably still beat him on his CP without going MK.

 

[Chuee]

I find MK to be somewhat manageable on Rainbow Cruise and Delfino, And I know some characters can handle him fine on frigate. If you ban Brinstar vs MK, you can probably still beat him on his CP without going MK.

Frigate and Delfino are much more manageable than RC.

 

[Tesh]

Well for my main, I find RC more favorable than frigate because I need the space. But my point is that Brinstar is pretty much super gay all around when MK is involved, but his 2nd best varies from matchup to matchup imo.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ghost, Brinstar isn't that great for G&W. If he goes there, his opponent will use a pocket MK in most cases, and then he dies super early to shuttle loop and MK doesn't get gimped because of the lava.

Lol, MK ruins CPs.

 

[Ghostbone]

Ghost, Brinstar isn't that great for G&W. If he goes there, his opponent will use a pocket MK in most cases, and then he dies super early to shuttle loop and MK doesn't get gimped because of the lava.

Lol, MK ruins CPs.

No not really

Brinstar's better than a bunch of other stages that's for sure.

And MK dies super early to everything from G&W on Brinstar as well lol.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Eh, I can see where you are coming from, I guess it's more of a player preference thing.