Stage Information Database and Q&A

[Tesh]

The main issue with MKs CPs is just....its for MK and he is aerial based. They aren't broken CPs for Pit, GnW or Wario. The 3 characters that have been shown to do best against MK are Diddy, Snake and Falco. To a lesser extent, some might consider Olimar and ICs. MKs biggest threats as far as matchups are heavily ground based characters. He ***** all the other aerial based characters so it doesn't really matter if Pit or GnW or Wario like MKs CPs.

 

[PMC66]

All I have to say to this line of argument is....

You considered Frigate a hard CP for MK. Your argument is invalid.

I didn't call it a hard cp but he does do well there. The problem is this: MK's evenish MU's are against ground based characters like Falco,Snake,Diddy. By allowing this stage with the other two cps you basically create overcentralisation as the characters that do well on brinstar all get screwed by MK and all the characters that do well against MK get screwed on Brinstar.

And if MK does break every stage in the game shouldn't he be banned in your metagame? personally i'm against banning meta Knight as he is managable on neutrals, though overpowered wherever he goes MK does not equal instant win. In my opinion a stage list with alot of stages but balanced so that every character has a cp means though MK has the horror of brinstar you could pick a stage yourself which will really help. But the current stagelist is MK only Brinstar,RC and Frigate ftw. I'm not arguing against the choices made for banning the stages like Pirate ship, Distant Planet and all the other ones I respect that decision and understand the logic behind those decisions.

But Brinstar please ban this stage MK is a character that is winnable against Brinstar breaks him too much it's already got to the stage where everyone has quit because they've known the agony and extreme annoyance of being nado'd camped, planked, sharked, gimped and up b'd and killed at super low percents for Mario,for Donkey Kong, For wolf, For Fox, For snake, For Falco, For Ice climbers. Don't compound this error or Brawl will eventually get to the state where matches are nothing but a boring mess like the vid i just posted and every talented non MK played gives up. I'm not saying banning brinstar will make it so everything is fair and we're in an ideal world but it's a good step in the right direction, and is probably one of the biggest steps to making comptetive play fairer so what if it's 'winnable' you no matter which character you are on this stage it's a horrific uphill struggle. BBR have had tons of rulesets yet at a regional and national level this character has dominated too badly for the wrong reasons.

If allowing this stage is really what you all want then i won't criticise that move this community has made alot of logical and good decisions which on the whole i do agree with personally not banning Brinstar is quite possibly one of the worst decisions a competetive fighting game community has ever done. But i do understand that many like playing here and it adds variety to the game. If you did allow it then i'd strongly suggest a 2 stage ban rule because atm you've got a hard but manageable CP (Frigate) a very hard CP (RC) and a situationalls unwinable matchup for alot of mid tier characters (Brinstar).

Thank you for listening I apologise if my response was a bit too long xD

 

[ぱみゅ]

What I can find in that post is a problem with perspective, hence, conflict on the argument sequence (derailing by misunderstanding).

By saying "MK is manageable in neutrals" you're not only implying there are true "neutrals", you're implying your stance that starters are the norm to be played with, and while grounded characters does not gets any advantage by counter-picking, MK gets counters so he has more advantage than he needs/deserves.
Basically, we all agree that MK breaks the system, but since we all see it from a different stance, we all think on different ways to solve it. Some are more objective or more extremists, or more like me and "I can not care less about MK, I don't think stage is bad, so deal with it".

 

[PMC66]

^
well no stage in brawl is 100% neutral but it's not as if the balloons in smashville cause problems it's not as if the shy guys on Yoshi's island change the outcome of the game. You all argue MK isn't given an unfair advantage and he's not unwinable on brinstar go tell Wolf your opinions on brinstar. I'm going to say something quite extreme Wolf flat out cannot win against Meta knight on brinstar it is as hard as Ganondorf vs snake on any stage. A minority do well there and the ones other than meta Knight and Jigglypuff are only for certain Matchups. every character i can think of that is mid or below has it almost as bad as wolf his fellow space animals find it pretty hard as well.

I'm not just stating this argument just because MK is horrific there, Jigglypuff is pretty damn annoying there as well. This stage degenerates play simply because though it's small it's so easy for Jiggs to stall there within the current rule set but MK who's 1st on the tier list is broken he has got to be 65-35 against everyone in the game on that stage not many people pick here so there isn't much evidence to back up any opinion expressed on it but I know alot of people who feel the same way on this, and I have a feeling that you'll all keep this stage going anyway because well lets face it everyone uses Meta Knight so why ban a stage you've got an advantage on?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If it is such a bad stage for Wolf vs. MK, why don't you just use your stage ban?

If you're going to tell me that MK can still take Wolf to 'x stage', which is just as bad, that either means that:
a) Meta Knight is broken
b) Wolf is ****
c) There aren't enough stage bans

I'm going to guess a little bit of all of them, but mainly C.

 

[Ghostbone]

Complaining about a low tier is dumb.

It's a ****ing low tier.

Jiggs on Brinstar might be gay to play against but imo Wolf is gay to play against anywhere so ban Wolf right?
No because they're both beatable.

So don't act like Jigglypuff is a contributing factor to Brinstar being broken at all......

It's pretty much only MK
And that's a problem with the character imo.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

MK isn't broken on Brinstar.

MK is broken on any stage in the game.

Why do we tolerate a character with positive MUs against every other character? A character who makes a number of character almost unviable (seriously, it is imo the one thing keeping a few characters, like Toon Link and Pit, down right now. Also Dedede pretty much vanished as being strictly mained for a while.)

 

[Raziek]

So I had a really disgusting thought this morning.

I was lamenting about how an AMAZING stage like Kongo Jungle 64 didn't make it into Brawl, and then I realized that conservatives would probably want it banned JUST because of Wario's run-away on the top platforms.

 

[WindMajor]

Can't Peach do the same thing in Melee though?

 

[Raziek]

Yeah, and they *****ed about it then, too. However, it did stay legal.

They'd also probably ***** about the barrel cannon being random-esque.

 

[Tesh]

Basically what PMC and I were saying is.....kind of the big deal with the whole Brinstar/RC combo. MK is THE god tier aerial character. The only other good ones are Wario and GnW, both being so far from broken that no one cares much about their ability on one or even two counterpicks. MK is being barely held at bay by a meager resistance of heavily ground based characters. The fact of the matter is that giving him any CPs at all pushes everything DECISIVELY into his favor and in most cases its skill diminishing. Keeping high level play remotely fair is revolving around keeping MK from ****** Snake, Diddy and Falco too hard. The sad thing is that some people are seriously advocating 2 stage bans universally. Nerfing every single character in the game just to stop the RC/Brinstar combo or even worse, banning one of both of the stages simply because of MK.



Frigate isn't really bad for ground characters, the size of the stage and ledgeless side can help them at times.

Just ask yourself if any of this is really a problem without MK? Do we have a rule banning Peach's turnip tricks, or Sonic's spinshot, or Ganondorf's super jump? No, because down B exploits aren't broken universally just because it is for MK. Do we ban going under the stage with Zero Suit Samus or Ivysaur? Nope. Rules should target the real issue here, MK. Ban HIM from using RC or Brinstar. gives people 2 stage bans against HIM.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yeah, and they *****ed about it then, too. However, it did stay legal.

They'd also probably ***** about the barrel cannon being random-esque.

You have no idea

That barrel is ******** and stalling is worse on it than Norfair.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The barrel cannon is HORRIBLE for stalling. Gives Peach and Jigglypuff a free escape option which wastes 5+ seconds whenever they want.

 

[John12346]

Just ask yourself if any of this is really a problem without MK?

I ask this to myself all the time whenever a new rule is proposed.

And the answer is usually no. -___ -;

.
.
.

Anyway, yes, the Brinstar/RC combo is the most ******** thing in the game right now. What are our current solutions to it?

- Ban MK
- - - Likely won't happen, at least for a very long while. I'm trying to get a few strings pulled to start a super secret project, but for now, let's just assume MK never actually gets banned and sally forth.

- Two Stage Bans
- - - You already stated the problem with this. While everyone finally gets to escape the dreaded Brinstar/RC combo, MK still gets very strong CP options in Frigate, Delfino, and Norfair(if legal). And even worse, at the same time, MK is busy killing off the only two stages he doesn't like, FD and Pictochat(if legal, otherwise it's a free stage ban), along with DSR killing off the only stage you might've beaten MK on Round 1.

- Remove RC or Brinstar from the stagelist
- - - A legitimate problem-solver, but it seems like there isn't much wrong with both stages when MK isn't in the game, so I'm not exactly sure if we should be removing stages from the game solely because of one character...

Anything else I might've missed? Opinions, opinions, people.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'd vote for Two Stage bans.
It arguably affects a lot of characters, since they do not have many CPs to take opponents to... But I consider being unable to handle many stages a character trait. Personally, I'm okay with that...

Limit MK maybe?
He's a problem, but stages are not. Banning him is out of question. So, just do not allow Metaknight to pick one, so opponents can just ban the other one, and everyone's happy (but MK, but he still have a lot of stages).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Limiting him is the best solution.

 

[chaosmaster1991]

I'd vote for Two Stage bans.
It arguably affects a lot of characters, since they do not have many CPs to take opponents to... But I consider being unable to handle many stages a character trait. Personally, I'm okay with that...

Being able to adapt to many stages is a character trait.
Being able to perform exceptionally well on a stage and use that stage to it's full potential, even if it's only on a very small amount of stages, is also a character trait, isn't it?

You are already testing the first trait through stage striking, assuming a large enough starter list, the character that can adapt better will have an advantage. Then you test it again on the opponent's CP, when a character can handle a lot of stages well, he won't be at that much of a disadvantage.

On the other hand, the more stage bans you add, the more you ignore the second trait. When a character has stages that work well for him, why is he not allowed to play there on his own CP? As long as the character-stage combination is not ridiculously overpowered (i.e. MK+Brinstar/RC), there is nothing that warrants banning acceptable combinations like IC+SV.

In other words, give MK 2 stage bans and leave everyone else alone.

 

[John12346]

Well, 2 stage bans for MK specifically is a solution that's been wandering in my mind for a while now, but then I just realized the confusion this might cause in a tournament set.

Assume Player 1 uses Snake and Diddy and Player 2 uses Falco and MK, and take a look at the scenario that comes to mind.

Spoiler

Player 1 uses Diddy.
Player 2 uses Falco.
Match 1 is played on Smashville.
Player 1 wins.
Player 1 gets to ban 1 stage; let's say Rainbow Cruise.
Player 2 counterpicks Brinstar.
Player 1 switches to Snake.
Player 2 switches Meta-Knight.
*rest of the set is played out*

The same issue occurs if the winner of Match 1 is Player 2, although Player 2 does have to hold off of using MK until the last match. Either way, this seems like an annoying circumvention of the MK-specific double stage ban, as Player 1 can only ban one stage at that juncture, because Player 2 hasn't brought MK into play yet even though he is clearly going for the Brinstar/RC combo with MK in Round 2(3).

What do you guys think?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

So I'm planning on running a MK banned tournament in my region.

Going to have the most liberal stagelist I can get away with.

I'll let you guys know how it goes.

 

[chaosmaster1991]

Well, 2 stage bans for MK specifically is a solution that's been wandering in my mind for a while now, but then I just realized the confusion this might cause in a tournament set.

Assume Player 1 uses Snake and Diddy and Player 2 uses Falco and MK, and take a look at the scenario that comes to mind.

Spoiler

Player 1 uses Diddy.
Player 2 uses Falco.
Match 1 is played on Smashville.
Player 1 wins.
Player 1 gets to ban 1 stage; let's say Rainbow Cruise.
Player 2 counterpicks Brinstar.
Player 1 switches to Snake.
Player 2 switches Meta-Knight.
*rest of the set is played out*

The same issue occurs if the winner of Match 1 is Player 2, although Player 2 does have to hold off of using MK until the last match. Either way, this seems like an annoying circumvention of the MK-specific double stage ban, as Player 1 can only ban one stage at that juncture, because Player 2 hasn't brought MK into play yet even though he is clearly going for the Brinstar/RC combo with MK in Round 2(3).

What do you guys think?

Extended scenario

Spoiler

Player 1 uses Diddy.
Player 2 uses Falco.
Match 1 is played on Smashville.
Player 1 wins.
Player 1 gets to ban 1 stage; let's say Rainbow Cruise.
Player 2 counterpicks Brinstar.
Player 1 switches to Snake.
Player 2 switches Meta-Knight.

As P2 switched to MK, P1 may choose to ban the selected stage

If he decides to do so...
1) repeat the process of choosing a stage and characters with RC and Brinstar banned
OR
2) P2 has to select a different stage and P1 may change his character whereas P2 has to stay MK
OR
3) P2 has to select a different stage, but neither player can change his character

If P1 is fine with the scenario, they obviously play Snake vs MK on Brinstar

*rest of the set is played out*

Maybe?

 

[John12346]

Maybe... but it seems like a lot of trouble.

How about if we made it so RC and Brinstar could both be banned at the same time by one player, regardless of characters being used? Like, the rule could say:

"During the counterpick process, the winner of the previous match may ban one stage from the legal stage list. If the stage Rainbow Cruise is banned, the winner may also opt to ban Brinstar, and vice-versa."

 

[BSP]

Or just ban switching to MK if either stage is picked?

 

[chaosmaster1991]

Maybe... but it seems like a lot of trouble.

I don't see how exactly, but what do I know.

How about if we made it so RC and Brinstar could both be banned at the same time by one player, regardless of characters being used? Like, the rule could say:

"During the counterpick process, the winner of the previous match may ban one stage from the legal stage list. If the stage Rainbow Cruise is banned, the winner may also opt to ban Brinstar, and vice-versa."

Any justification for this besides the fact that it'd be easier to implement?

 

[John12346]

Not really, your way is honestly pretty better.

But you just know a rule like that is gonna make the pro-ban extremists cry out "stop surgically nerfing MK and ban him already." I mean, of course I hold that same sentiment, but I just figured the way my rule is worded, it doesn't directly target MK and will keep them quiet for a bit.

 

[Tesh]

We can ban characters from doing things in specific situations. Its been done. We tell Link mains they have to hit Diddy if the boomerang glitch happens don't we? We can just say "MK is not allowed on Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise". YES, that means you can CP an MK to Brinstar and they have to switch. IDGAF!!

don't need convoluted rules like "if you were MK game 1 or 2 its okay but blah bla blah".

 

[ErikG]

We can ban characters from doing things in specific situations. Its been done. We tell Link mains they have to hit Diddy if the boomerang glitch happens don't we? We can just say "MK is not allowed on Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise". YES, that means you can CP an MK to Brinstar and they have to switch. IDGAF!!

don't need convoluted rules like "if you were MK game 1 or 2 its okay but blah bla blah".

That is a terrible idea.

"You may not counterpick your opponent to Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar and choose to play as MK yourself. Furthermore, if you played Metaknight earlier in the set, and your opponent counterpicks you to Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise, you may choose Metaknight"

 

[Ghostbone]

That is a terrible idea.

"You may not counterpick your opponent to Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar and choose to play as MK yourself. Furthermore, if you played Metaknight earlier in the set, and your opponent counterpicks you to Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise, you may choose Metaknight"

Don't even need the second bit.

Just
"You may not counter-pick your opponent to Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar and choose to play as MK, unless your opponent is also playing MK"

 

[Tesh]

Nah, just ban the use of MK on Brinstar and RC PERIOD!!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It should be a choice thing.

"You may not counter-pick your opponent to Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar and choose to play as Meta Knight, unless your opponent agrees or also chooses to play as Meta Knight."

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'd rather have that rule for MK-Brinstar only, some characters (like Wario or GW) actually LIKE to play against him on RC...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Which is why I put in the "Unless your opponent allows it" thing.

 

[John12346]

Just for the record, this gives you 3 stage bans against MK. Brinstar, RC, plus your own personal stage ban. You also get a 4th stage ban if DSR's rule is in effect and you lost Round 1. That's 4 advantageous stages for MK down the gutter.

Just saying...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yet he is still S Tier, go figure.

 

[Ghostbone]

Just for the record, this gives you 3 stage bans against MK. Brinstar, RC, plus your own personal stage ban. You also get a 4th stage ban if DSR's rule is in effect and you lost Round 1. That's 4 advantageous stages for MK down the gutter.

Just saying...

Well if the stages are going to be banned otherwise it doesn't make a difference.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

LOL

Yes it does.

Now you can actually strategically ban against him. The only character who doesn't really mind his two standard CPs, RC and Brinstar, is pretty much just Mr. Game and Watch. For other characters, this means you can not only avoid RC and Brinstar, but also avoid something like Delfino Plaza or Frigate Orpheon.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Jigglypuff doesn't mind those CPs

 

[Supreme Dirt]

No he doesn't. I just used GaW as an example.

Though where do we take MK as Puff?

*EDIT* Damnit missed my 2500th post.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I take Meta Knight to these stages in this order:
1. Halberd
2. PS2
3. PS1
4. FD
5. DP

 

[Laem]

sup quick question
is the amount of time Frigate O spends on one transition random?

 

[T-block]

As far as we know, yes.