Stage Information Database and Q&A

[sunshade]

Each of those grabs had a risk to them. The walk off campie can apply constant safe pressure since the only think they have to worry about is an attempted grab. If they land anything they get the kill so both players have equally massive rewards for succesfully doing anything, only difference between the two players is that the walk off camper can only kill with a garb.

It makes for high risk/high reward for both players and I personally feel the deck is leaning away from the camper in this scenario. Run away when you get the lead is a much safer way of getting a victory once a lead is gained.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The "pressure" will be negligible unless the campee puts themself in a dangerous position.

Trying to safely pressure against a character like DDD with such a large grab range and brilliant spot dodge doesn't really give you an advantage, it is just a neutral reset. The same applies to Olimar, who can out-camp most characters and has a ridiculous grab range and fast, strong Up Smash to cover him diagonally.

If you try and pressure safely, there is both the chance of you screwing up and the DDD player. But I'd say that shielding attacks and then grabbing when the opponent is clearly vulnerable is much easier than having to constantly perfectly space attack(s).

So the DDD has the lead, and to take it from him you need to put yourself in a position where the DDD has a much higher chance of landing the hit than you do.

You have partially convinced me though, I'd like to try some of this stuff out.

 

[sunshade]

I suppose pressure was a bad word. It is like you said a neutral reset if neither player makes a mistake but if either player makes a mistake then they die. If both players continually don't make mistakes and the walk off campie continually attempts the reset eventually the walk of campers shield will be capable of being poked or in the most egregious cases broken. This will eventually force the walk-off camper to seek another option which causes our scenario to have mix ups and potential back and forth to it. I think walk-off camping is strong, but broken is not where I would place it.

Until I actually see competent players who are practiced in the scenario fighting each other, I can't say walk-off camping is broken. Its a weighted game of mix-ups for sure but nothing else in my book.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Given what you've said, I'm happy to give it a chance in a competitive environment.

Though I still believe that it is broken, theory-crafting isn't the way to prove that.

 

[sunshade]

If only I could play this game at a proficient enough level to preform play testing indicative of top level play. I would have so much testing to look forward to.

Unrelated, does anyone know of any good ways to at least partially heal scars? I have a nasty one on the back of my left hand that previously didn't bother me but has recently made me want to look into fixing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Err... Vitamin E, Aloe Vera, and some oils, off of the top of my head.

 

[Life]

My only beef with walkoffs is that, when both players are offscreen just next to the blastzone, it's very difficult to determine spacing.

Random thought: offsides is something that should be legal in soccer IMO, it encourages smart play and opens a new option--if someone is "camping" offsides do you leave a defender back there to keep him covered or do you risk leaving a massive weak spot in order to have a numerical advantage on the other side of the field?

(Originally I was going to draw a comparison between walkoffs and offsides, but I decided the analogy was kinda meh)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301032

Unity Ruleset

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301033

Discussion thread for it.

Important for stage peoples.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I hate to pull a BPC here, but I am pissed.

I am sick of NO ONE listening to us, despite easily being the most knowledgeable people in the community when it comes to stages. We constantly prove our points and still people cling to their own flawed beliefs.

We need to compile something big in my opinion, that covers every potential argument in one place...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

They listen and consider, there are people who are on the fence with FD being a starter for those who think it shouldn't and other stage issues.

They said it can change on a notice, so let's wait and see.

 

[sunshade]

I support that idea strongly. I think we as a group need to select what we want to advocate for and collectively lobby for it.

 

[Life]

I plan on posting my own ruleset in a few days if I can get the time together to compile it. If I could get you guys to sign onto it, it could be huge.

I'll post when the rough draft is finished, you guys can PM me if you want to proofread it, and I'll post when it's ready. Kinda don't wanna spoil it here, IDK. Then again, not like anyone but us shows up here...

 

[ぱみゅ]

@InCom: I will post mineas well when I finish my write-up. =P

 

[sunshade]

I wouldn't mind seeing the ruleset. PM it to me if you get a chance.

 

[Life]

@InCom: I will post mineas well when I finish my write-up. =P

Hold up on that. We should compare notes beforehand and only post ONE ruleset.

We don't want to see open-stagers split on issues. This time, unity actually IS important.

Anyway, I went ahead and wrote the intro. Only complaint is that I talk about myself too much. And I named it after myself because we don't have a name.

Since it's not an actual part of the ruleset, I'm comfortable posting it here.

Spoiler

The Incom Ruleset

Greetings, fellow Smashboarders. I'm Incom, a relatively inexperienced player (if not by choice) but more importantly a much stronger Brawl rules theorist. On behalf of my fellows from the stage discussion boards, from whom I draw much inspiration (and also proofreading), I'd like to present a ruleset.

When the BBR-Ruleset Committee (hereafter BRC) was first announced, we met it with rather varied reactions. Some of us were excited that a ruleset could actually be enforced. But then I looked at the rules as they stood. I won't speak for the others, but I for one was not amused. All the hard work we had put in, all the logic that nobody could refute, all the people we had convinced (of which I am one), but more importantly, all the work the BBR (which is unrelated to the BRC despite BBR being in the latter's name) had put into THREE official rulesets was officially down the drain. Several stages which were permissible under BBR rules were suddenly illegal in BRC rules, with no obvious logic to their inclusion or exclusion (notably Jungle Japes being banned but Pictochat being legal). I tried to look to the bright side--at least PS2 made the cut--but I couldn't shake the fact that five people selected because they were tournament organizers (though the organization has admitted more since) had just overruled dozens who had been selected due to game knowledge, without a single shred of logic explaining why.

After a while, I realized that simply arguing about it was not going to earn myself or my open-stage colleagues any respect or progress. Ever tried to push down a wall? It's not easy. So I quieted down for a while, still making comments where I could, and all the while staring at that thread and wondering what I could do.

Recently, the BRC finally released the full Unity Ruleset. To their credit, they didn't do so bad a job--one or two clauses they've newly suggested are here as well.

Except that stagelist. It had not changed.

Yes, five starters, including the infamous Battlefield/Smashville/Final Destination combination. Yes, Pictochat still legal over Jungle Japes. Yes, both Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise with only one stage ban, despite FD being included in the starters--as I understand it--primarily because of MK. No mention of the likes of Norfair or Port Town Aero Dive or Distant Planet, despite those being fine counterpick stages.

I realized that if we were going to argue over stages, we might as well argue over rules as well. Again, the BRC didn't do terribly here.

But I think we can do better.

And so, on behalf of like-minded members, I present to Smash World Forums a ruleset. Crafted with an ideal in mind: that through careful management of the rules of engagement, we can create a more varied, more competitive Brawl.

Anyways, I just came up with a rule idea. It might be a little scrubby, I'm not sure, but I want your opinions on it. If it works, it gets in. If not, it gets scrubbed, no pun intended.

Lucario Clause
Players may choose to increase their handicap at the start of a game. If they do, they must maintain at least that handicap for the remainder of the set.

The reason it's named Lucario Clause is that I'm using one-stock with food which, while awesome, nerfs Lucario pretty badly. The point is that Lucario can get up to full power at the start of a match without having to worry about potentially getting gimped before aura sets in. I'm not sure how much it helps, but eh. Obviously everyone gets it so it's less scrubby. Maybe other characters will find uses for it, throwing off CG percents and whatnot. Although it might just be considered an extension of Gentleman Clause, IDK.

Consider this post a preview.

 

[Kantrip]

Haha the Lucario clause, I love it! Well not the actual rule but maybe that's just because I don't play Lucario. I would rather risk a gimp than gimp myself by raising my percent, regardless of the aura.

I like the idea of a larger stagelist with full striking of them and 2 stage bans, but that may just be me.

 

[sunshade]

Lets not argue for 1 stock with food please. I like the idea as well but baby steps need to be taken.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Basically, you'repropossing us to make OUR Unity Ruleset based on theorycrafting and well-backed arguments?

I'm fine with that. It may worth the try.

Spoiler

Considering how many people here hates Picto, it most likely will be banned...

 

[Tesh]

Don't worry kyo, it may seem like there is alot of Picto hate, but there are still alot of people that think its fine legal. They just know we are fighting and uphill battle and they won't really need to defend the stage to keep it legal. Just like MK. Its just "too late" to change most things now. ESPECIALLY when people cite melee for their reasoning on things. Like FD stage legality.

In other news, should we try to get Pipes legal now with universal lgls? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12495148#post12495148

 

[T-block]

I will hopefully have a huge post on Pictochat prepared for tomorrow.

I'm kinda curious as to how big the fires sparked will be.

 

[ぱみゅ]

In other news, should we try to get Pipes legal now with universal lgls? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12495148#post12495148

Why would it be not in the first place? Other than personal preference and bias, I have no problem with it....

 

[BSP]

I will hopefully have a huge post on Pictochat prepared for tomorrow.

I'm kinda curious as to how big the fires sparked will be.

I'll check it out when it's up. Are you still in favor of it or against it or borderline?

 

[T-block]

Heavily in favour.

Wonder how much free time I'll have at work tomorrow...

 

[BSP]

Good luck then, but I'm going try to show why it's bad and unacceptable for competition

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't think we should be proposing a 1-Stock Food ruleset, considering some of us (Read: Me) don't even support it.

 

[Tesh]

I don't think there will be any point in trying to seriously convince the BBRRC of anything. Its hard enough to even convince one TO that his/her ruleset isn't perfect. Now its 100x harder and any time you prove them wrong they will just bring up unity, practicality and say "we have considered this, but we still think our way is best".

 

[WindMajor]

Quick interruption: I'm gonna be updating the OP soon. Anything new that you guys would want on your profiles? Personal rulesets? Revised tier positions? Etc.?

 

[Ghostbone]

We really shouldn't propose 1-stock food >.>
Anything extreme will ruin the whole effort.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Quick interruption: I'm gonna be updating the OP soon. Anything new that you guys would want on your profiles? Personal rulesets? Revised tier positions? Etc.?

Change mine to this, please:

Grim Tuesday
Name: Mason Spangler (Grim Tuesday)
Location: Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
Stance: Liberal Extremist
Tier: High
Mains: Jigglypuff, Meta Knight
Secondaries: Ice Climbers
Favourite Stage: Mario Bros.
Other: I support Mario Bros.

 

[Life]

Change my secondaries to "pretty much everyone else" <.<

As for one-stock food I'm curious what the problem is (besides "it's too extreme and we shouldn't push for too much"). Remember that OSF is basically our replacement for a LGL--they both exist because of MK's planking. We kinda have to argue for one or the other, or else ban MK. I figure that OSF is the best of these options as it nukes all stalling options, not just perfect planking.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The only non-negligible downside is the "too extreme" one. Which is why I don't support it currently.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yea but people's logic goes something like this...

"ITEMS? LOL THESE GAIS SO BAD THERE CASUALS LOLOLOLOL"
/purposeful misspelling of they're

And there goes any consideration of the ruleset

 

[chaosmaster1991]

Quick interruption: I'm gonna be updating the OP soon. Anything new that you guys would want on your profiles? Personal rulesets? Revised tier positions? Etc.?

You could acknowledge that I post here every now and then and add me?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think we should vote on tier positions personally.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I think that we, the stage gang, really ****ing should make a ruleset. And it should not be BBR 3.0. In fact, what I'm imagining is literally about one stage away from the BBRRC "Unity" ruleset. Nothing huge. No big jumps, nothing that anyone this side of Moronville (Inui, DMBrandon, M2K, etc.) would point to and say, "Eh... no thanks". I'm thinking pretty much just 7 starters, Picto swapped for Japes (or just adding it), and 2 stage bans. That is what we should be aiming for. Not revolution, just a slight shift. That's all.

And yeah, the project really should happen. It's a really ****ing good idea. I'm sick of being ignored.

EDIT: also it should not have my name, Ghostbone's name, or Grim's name anywhere near it. Maybe not even Twinkie's. It needs names like amazingampharos, DMG, RedRyu, and T-block. Not those "insane" stage debaters. Not me (with my rage issues), not Ghostbone/Grim (with their publicly extreme views). Even if we help work on it. >.> It would simply discredit the entire project. We need people to support this. **** being ignored. **** people saying "eh, stage discussion, who cares". It's DONE.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

MY REGION JUST ADOPTED THE UNITY RULESET.

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE.

On the bright side, now my hacks don't have to be competitive any more, since I won't be attending any more of my region's tournaments.

*EDIT* I don't think I've ever been this pissed off over something in Brawl, EVER. I'm so ****ing mad.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Tell them they're stupid?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

My main TO, T.i.n M.a.n thinks that stage BGs are banworthy.

Logic does not work against him.

I've decided to switch to Diddy/ICs and abuse the hell out of this ruleset.

Unfortunately, this means I'm getting dangerously close to switching to MK. Though I would have switched months ago if Shuttle Loop didn't stale.

*EDIT*

btw, Twinkie, since suddenly I really really care about stage discussion (mostly because I REALLY want Pirate Ship legal and a decent Starter list)...

Supreme Dirt
Name: Damien Figueiredo
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Stance: Everything without walkoffs or circles legal
Tier: Smash 64
Mains: Game and Watch, King Dedede
Secondaries: Jigglypuff/Yoshi/Ganondorf/Fox
Favourite Stages: Pirate Ship, 75m (which is obviously banworthy, don't get me wrong), Norfair, Yoshi's Island (Melee), Port Town Aero Dive
Least Favourite Stages: Final Destination. This is smash, stages should be dynamic. Also Brinstar. It's a wannabe Planet Zebes 64.
Other: Hands off my bread.

 

[Tesh]

Yea but people's logic goes something like this...

"ITEMS? LOL THESE GAIS SO BAD THERE CASUALS LOLOLOLOL"
/purposeful misspelling of they're

And there goes any consideration of the ruleset

This is pretty much what happens when you suggest almost anything. The BBRRC doesn't have to listen to anyone. The BBR didn't listen to anyone either. They aren't elected, we don't pay then etc. Its not like any of us are going to stop coming to this site because of them, so advertisement money is no difference. They are a group that appoints new members through subjective criteria. The BBRRC isn't subjective in admission at least. I'm 100% certain that the bigger TOs have far more say than the smaller ones, but at least if you comply with a small task (running an event their way), they let you in to watch.

I think that we, the stage gang, really ****ing should make a ruleset. And it should not be BBR 3.0. In fact, what I'm imagining is literally about one stage away from the BBRRC "Unity" ruleset. Nothing huge. No big jumps, nothing that anyone this side of Moronville (Inui, DMBrandon, M2K, etc.) would point to and say, "Eh... no thanks". I'm thinking pretty much just 7 starters, Picto swapped for Japes (or just adding it), and 2 stage bans. That is what we should be aiming for. Not revolution, just a slight shift. That's all.

And yeah, the project really should happen. It's a really ****ing good idea. I'm sick of being ignored.

EDIT: also it should not have my name, Ghostbone's name, or Grim's name anywhere near it. Maybe not even Twinkie's. It needs names like amazingampharos, DMG, RedRyu, and T-block. Not those "insane" stage debaters. Not me (with my rage issues), not Ghostbone/Grim (with their publicly extreme views). Even if we help work on it. >.> It would simply discredit the entire project. We need people to support this. **** being ignored. **** people saying "eh, stage discussion, who cares". It's DONE.

I haven't seen AA in a while. Do people even listen to RedRyu and T-block? And ofcourse DMG doesn't agree with the stage rage crew on much of anything. He believes in the static=neutral stuff and won't go with 7 stage starter thats for sure.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

So guys, SDBR?

(Stage Discussion Back Room, not Supreme Dirt Back Room).