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Stage Information Database and Q&A

Life

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
5,264
Location
Grieving No Longer
Tell him that under his philosophy, the only random thing that's happening is what your opponent is doing. Then tell him that he should ban the opponent from the game since he's random.
This is getting sigged. Maybe. Probably just the last sentence out of context.

Let met put it this way: The more factors there are to consider (stages in the list, features on the current stage), the more potential strategies there are, therefore higher learning curve, therefore more competitive depth. All that a hazard like Klaptrap does is alter the risk-reward balance of your moves--now when you approach Falco, depending only on WHEN you do it (which is mostly under your control), you may be KO'd instead of taking a couple dozen percent from the CG. Nothing uncompetitive about that. For slightly-random/slow features (Smashville platform, PS1/2 transformations most of Norfair) the same thing applies. For more-random/faster features (Norfair spouts, GG blocks, arguably Picto) you can still plan (example: "what am I gonna do if a lava wall is going to appear?" the answer being "if the opponent's at kill percents, hit them away from the wall so it won't block the KO, and if they're not hit them towards the wall so you can combo off it; alternatively, powershield camp inside the wall to kill time if I might win by timeout, or if I'm being edgeguarded use it to hit me towards the stage and refresh my up-B, or abuse it to bring down a camping Wario or Sonic or a planking MK/GnW/Pit/DK" or maybe some other strategy--see why it's a good thing?), but you also have to adapt those plans to the current situation (who's in the lead and by how much, where you and your opponent are, which characters you're using) and execute them within a relatively brief window--whether this makes it more or less competitive is a matter of philosophy. It doesn't get uncompetitive until arguably-Picto and Warioware where those "features" reasonably decide games, ie. the better player loses unusually often.

Also, Temple. And debate him if one-stock + food on medium is worth using to solve stalling.
 
Joined
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That type of "random" is the type of thing people don't understand or put effort into understanding. Kind of like mid level players saying "lol random tech" . Your TO might just be bad at the game or trying to cater to bad players. Its not uncompetitive to have dynamic events help or hurt player SIMPLY because they weren't inteligent enough to plan for them.

Japes is as predictable as SV. Just as you might hold your opponent on japes for a second or two, waiting for the correct moment to spike them into the croc, you might wait for the platform on SV to avoid grab releases. They are both of a VERY simple timer.

I don't see how you can argue a philosophy to him though. He thinks static is better than dynamic for competition. You can't really logic your way past a core belief.
Ouch. BURN.

Tell him that under his philosophy, the only random thing that's happening is what your opponent is doing. Then tell him that he should ban the opponent from the game since he's random.
This is in fact very funny. :laugh: I gotta show him this thread.
 

Blacknight99923

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
2,315
Location
UCLA
falco chain grabbing you then spiking you with the klap trap is effectively random.

the players never dictated when the klap trap comes out, so suddenly 4 minutes into the match falco gets profited with a grab= stock rather than a grab equal lots of damage when 9/10 of the time in the match he wouldn't be rewarded with that.


it really just depends on how important the skills directly related to defeating your opponent are.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
Ah, no, it isn't effectively random unless we assume that neither player is at the top of the current meta-game (i.e. no idea of how to use the NON-random stage elements).

And the top of the current meta-game is what we design rule-sets for... >_>
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
falco chain grabbing you then spiking you with the klap trap is effectively random.

the players never dictated when the klap trap comes out, so suddenly 4 minutes into the match falco gets profited with a grab= stock rather than a grab equal lots of damage when 9/10 of the time in the match he wouldn't be rewarded with that.


it really just depends on how important the skills directly related to defeating your opponent are.
Its incredible stupid to say that something is random when its clearly not random. Its one thing to feel that the reward is too great (hyrule, corneria, bridge of eldin), which is a legit arguement. But, its just incredibly stupid to call a scheduled event random.

Is landing on the Smashville platform? Because most of the time during a match, its not right next to you. Avoid a grab release by mashing out when the platform shows up? RANDOM!!!

I sort of agree that Japes is a stupid stage, but its not random at ALL. I don't know what you mean by "effectively random" but you are still wrong.
 

Life

Smash Hero
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Jul 19, 2010
Messages
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The players dictated when the Klaptrap comes out by picking Japes.

"effectively random" = neither player is good enough to keep track of a nonrandom but moving element. We design rulesets assuming people know the stages.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
Snake's Uptilt is effectively random because I mash buttons when I play Snake.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
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Considering the best retort they gave me was, "your an idiot." I'd have to agree with that comment about AiB.

I generally only go there for the ladder.
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
10,050
Normally I avoid AiB like the plague, and abort mission whenever we're arguing subjectivity, but I put my sunglasses on, and now I don't give a ****!

Send me the link I AIN'T SCARED!

:cool::cool::cool:
 

Life

Smash Hero
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Jul 19, 2010
Messages
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Creationists are being totally honest BPC. Use a better analogy.... honest like Nigerian banks? Or would people call that racism? /shrug
 

ぱみゅ

❤ ~
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
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Under your skirt
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Creationist does well: do something different, and let people prove it right or wrong.
IMO, Rulesets are subjective. Yet, every criteria must be well supported with solid arguments, and applied objectively.


AiB sucks, tho.
I really got tired of arguing with TKD....
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
4,665
Location
Australia
Dammit smashers in Australia can be ********...

Some of them want Castle Siege banned because D3 can walk-off chain-grab you >.>
 
Joined
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They should ban Ice Climbers too because they can walk-off chain-grab you too.

Without walk-offs.
 
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Creationist. Like, specifically, dogmatic young earth creationists like Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, and Ray Comfort. When I refer to creationists being "dishonest and flat-out wrong", those are usually the ones I mean.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
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Ok thanks for that.

I'm pretty open to religion as long as it holds and supports good moral values. Even with Atheists, if I was God I would let them into heaven even if they didn't beleive in me, as long as they were good people and not satanic evil or something.

Uh oh religious talk, better keep my yap shut about that, lol.
 

Life

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
5,264
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Grieving No Longer
I don't have an AIB account and don't feel the need to get one (link them here if you must).

That being said:

1. That extra stage ban does NOTHING to help with FD because you don't use bans until after Game 1. FD to counterpicks. Either PS1, PS2, or CS would be acceptable in its place (the same logic that says FD is okay because it's "only 1" polar stage--even though it isn't--says that one transforming stage is okay because it's only 1 and players with a problem with that can strike it [YIB/Lylat barely move]) unless you want to expand the starter list.
2. CS is only a problem in a few matches due to phase 2 having walkoffs and a light circle--the former benefits the same characters that FD does, and the latter only matters to Sonic/Wario/maybe a couple obscure slow characters; neither of those have their by-far-the-best CPs available (Sonic because Picto and Norfair are banned, Wario due to two stage bans and Norfair)
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,649
Location
Finland
AiB sucks, but I still visit it every damn day >_>
Why am I being tortured like this!

The best thing, the absolute best thing someone said in AiB, ever:

"Final Destination is the best stage in the game because it's an even ground, a fair fight for everyone" :D
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
Both Apollo and Nova, the two Brawl TOs, agree that it is one of if not the most balanced stage in the game, they are just deciding whether to include it based on conformity (none of the other states in Australia have it as a starter).
 
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