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St.Louis Area Discussion Thread

Teh Future

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Messages
4,870
Location
St. Louis, MO
lolwat? idk but yeah we should play. I think Im off work this saturday if you guys are playing at WashU I might be able to drive forever to play again.

Also we are doing sets at Williams tomorrow if anyone wants to join. Both Brawl and melee 2.0 (olololollolololo brawl+)

Do yourself a favor and don't MM Mr. Doom in 64. Just....just don't do it.
Hmm, I think as long as he doesn't play DK and spam grabs I should be fine LOL. Also you did just ask someone to D3 ditto you so.....
 

Nuris

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
1,578
I'll be at Will's probably and I'll bring my 64. The misuse of loose for lose is a just a pet peeve of mine. Maybe you didn't even notice :-/
 

Legan

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Messages
1,427
Location
St Louis, Missouri
Legan trust me i'm done most of what i say is joking anyway...
plus i've been playing brawl lately anyway cause it's way more fun to screw around with :)
but if it bugs you i'll stop "bashing" brawl... but only for you
And jesus man i'm sorry i suck at melee i play the game with the same three people and they are around the same skill if i played you guys a little more i might get better faster but it's a little hard to do in high school.
lucky you though i'm graduation this year so i'll see you guys a lot more
<3 Gracias.

Well whip you into shape in no time.
 

The Milk Monster

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
2,138
Location
Collinsville, IL.
Being good at Melee isn't hard to do while in high school and playing only the same group of people.
Play once with STL, you'll adapt pre' quick.

Edit://
Why does my sig only show up like 10% of the time?
 

Radium88

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
1,203
Location
St. Louis, MO
Here here to Kyle. I totally agree that if MK was that broken, any n00b can use him and beat someone that is of higher skill.
 

MuBa

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,958
Location
Dragon Kick you into the Milky Way!
Also we are doing sets at Williams tomorrow if anyone wants to join. Both Brawl and melee 2.0 (olololollolololo brawl+)
Take a look at these vids before insulting Brawl+ any further. This is how much we've progressed so far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL3H0gQrOoQ (Falcon got better?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63icRoIyc2s (Falcon isn't low tier anymore!. And we brought back the reverse knee)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4XU_NtUcSU (Ganon pwnz)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_R2JIVRWrc (Wario vs. Lucas)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYoBwsRkDvo (Samus vs. Falco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvzFvKB3-s0 (Featuring Mega Man Ness and Red Ranger Falcon)



And @ Zig....wtf?
 

Cook

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
3,364
Location
Hannibal, MO
St. Louis peeps! If you're going to Kahoka check to see if I have you in the RSVP! If you aren't coming then check anyway and tell me if I have you listed accidentally!
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
Hey, don't forget about Jiggs ditt--

...

...

...

Um, Falcon Dittos anyone?
 

Cook

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
3,364
Location
Hannibal, MO
Opinions about Meta Knight are like butts: Everyone's got one, they all stink, and the last one anyone ever wants to see is Overswarm's.

But seriously.

I'll make one post about this and then shut up.

There is one, and only one, reason to ban a character: The character invalidates competition. This means that the character is broken such that people can beat much better players merely by playing him/her/it. If you think that Brawl is at such a state with Meta Knight, then by all means I invite you to argue in favor of banning him.
I smell Sirlin. I don't tend to agree with that guy. Anyway, why is that the only acceptable reason to ban a character? You can't just say that it is without backing it up at all.


Now, some other reasons recently argued are NOT valid...

First, everyone should stop talking about WHOBO or any situation where the top players are playing Meta Knight. Do you realize how obtuse you sound, complaining about what characters are played by people so far above your level? Sorry, but most of you are you are never even going to play these players. You don't even have an ideological reason to complain about what characters they use against each other. If they all played Falcon against each other, you wouldn't complain a bit!

Do you see how absurd it is to complain about the character choice of top players, when it doesn't affect you at all? What you should be complaining about is "being unable to compete in tournaments at your level because any random Joe can pick up Meta Knight and beat you". If you think that's true, then say that and let DSF do the complaining about top level Meta Knights if he wants to. If you don't think it's true, then what's the problem?

The top players' character choices affect everyone because they do the most to develop the metagame. We emulate them. If they concentrate on one character then other characters don't develop much. Besides, we HAVE played with these top players. So have you. Well, not all of them, but some of them. And we will play them again.



Second, please stop saying that we will have more character diversity if MK is banned. You could not be more wrong.

I've made long posts about this twice before, so I will try to be brief:

Some characters dominate low tiers and make them practically unviable. Shiek in Melee, Sagot in SFII, DDD in Brawl. These characters have many matchups HEAVILY in their favor, even if they aren't the "best" character.

Some characters are the opposite: they don't really do that much better against "low-tier" characters than "high-tier". Look at Fox in Melee, or MK in Brawl. They are considered the best in their respective games, but don't hard counter ANYONE. They are no one's worst matchup (except maybe MK vs. ROB), and low-tier characters have realistic matchups against them.

Most characters are somewhere in the middle. Marth and Falco do very well against low-tiers in Melee, but they don't shut them down totally like Shiek does. Snake, Wario, Falco, Diddy, and G&W have better matchups against the lower half of the cast in Brawl than Meta Knight, but don't have the domination that DDD has on some.

We don't ban characters because we want to artificially increase character diversity. But if we did, Meta Knight is the worst character you could possibly want to ban! If you ban Meta Knight, then DK, Yoshi, and Jigglypuff immediately become much less viable. The only character that has any positive growth, besides DDD and G&W, is that ROB might be able to become a top character. If you want to increase character diversity, shouldn't you be arguing about banning DDD? You ban him, and instantly at least 5 characters and even entire stages become viable! Heck, compared to the other top-tiers Meta Knight looks like Robin Hood; he keeps the other top tier characters in check and actually gives the low-tiers a shot at winning!
Not many people would try to claim that banning MK would make ****ty characters viable. It wouldn't. But it WOULD still increase diversity. Right now MK is pretty dominant. Not here in MO, but in general he dominates the rankings. If he were gone then those players would have to use someone different. But they wouldn't all go to the same character. This is because no other character CAN completely dominate because every other character can be counterpicked. We will see more of the other top characters winning stuff, but it won't be the same character.









Erm, looking at tournament performance between top players of the characters, I'd have to say inequivocably, Snake has bad matchups. I highly recommend you never ever ever listen to a character board about matchups. Generally only mid-level skilled players take part in the discussions for those, or just a general idiocy prevails that is somehow unbelievable. This is mostly off the top of my head, but for some of the top tiers, their matchups are more like this:

Meta Knight-Himself (lulz) (Pretty Even by Pro standards: Wario, Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong)

Snake-DDD, ROB, Meta Knight, Marth, DK (evenish by pro standards: Falco, Pika, Wario, Zero Suit)

DDD- Olimar, Kirby, Falco, Fox, Sheik, Zelda, Jigglypuff, Squirtle (lol), Meta Knight

Marth-Meta Knight....uh....um.... (Evenish: DDD, ROB, Falco, Diddy)

Falco- ICs, Pika, Himself (lol), Meta Knight, Kirby, Game & Watch (Evenish: Marth, Jiggz)

Diddy Kong- Kirby, Jiggz, Wario, ROB (Even: Meta, Snake, Falco, Fox, Wolf)
Serious lack of Olimar! He (slightly) counters Snake, counters Diddy a little hard, and goes even with Falco!


Quite the opposite is true, sir... Matches from people that play each other all the time are the MOST representative of a matchup, because they both don't fall for tricks that someone who is uneducated on the matchup would.
Right, but they also tend to have a better understanding of the actual player. So they do better than they might against someone they didn't know who played that character.



So your argument is still that metaknight is broken because he doesn't have a hard counter? That is not reason enough to ban him.

"Too many" of him is also not a good enough reason. There can be too many of anyone, that doesn't make them ban worthy.

All of your reasons are just reasons that you find it to be inconvienient for him to exist. They are not reasons that he is broken and should be removed from existence.
The problem here (the same problem with most arguments, actually) is that we aren't really addressing the point on which we actually disagree. You think a character should only be banned if he is broken good and unbeatable. I think bans are acceptable for other reasons. I think that if a character can counter every other character then he will dominate the metagame. That's what MK is doing. That makes for a boring metagame. A boring metagame makes for a game that may not stay competitive for long. Get rid of one character, though, and we get a fun rock/paper/scissors counterpick system that ensures that no one character can dominate. That metagame is worth banning one character for. But if we don't agree on what makes a character banworthy then we can't really discuss whether MK should be banned.
 

Dekuschrub

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
3,295
Location
St. Louis MO
ahahahah so true

you play jiggs

now youre spamming images in threads.

WIN WINWINWIN

actually sliq can beat me so thats all thats left!
 

Nuris

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
1,578
Yeah, okay, Andrew knows I <3 him and am just teasing.
But seriously, this is getting tired, and I really think if you want to continue arguing with walls of text about things that cannot be proven, you guys should start thread dedicated to that and post in there.
But that's just me; it seems like everyone else either loves the debate or doesn't mind its presence.
I just want us back to the familiar spam :(
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
Okay, fine.

Before I can focus on the ignorance that abounds in Mr. Deku McJohns, Esq.'s codices, I must qualify Deku's character, his sources, and even his personal frame of mind towards me. You see, I unequivocally believe that in a matter of days, Deku's outbursts will squeeze every last drop of blood from our overworked, overtaxed bodies. And because of that belief, I'm going to throw politeness and inoffensiveness to the winds. In this letter, I'm going to be as rude and crude as I know how, to reinforce the point that we can all have daydreams about Happy Fuzzy Purple Bunny Land, where everyone is caring, loving, and nice. Not only will those daydreams not come true, but some people believe that one day Deku's idolators will denounce Deku's inveracities. Such people are doomed to disappointment, especially when one considers that my love for people necessitates that I raise the quality of debate on issues surrounding Deku's arrogant, drugged-out declamations. Yes, I face opposition from Deku. However, this is not a reason to quit but to strive harder.

It has been revealed that Deku plans to extract obscene salaries and profits from corporations that instill distrust and thereby create a need for his aberrant views. First reaction yields that his recommendations serve no purpose other than to fuel inquisitions. A little more thought leads to the more accurate conclusion that Deku's expositors' thinking is fenced in by many constraints. Their minds are not free because they dare not be. He once had the audacity to tell me that anyone who disagrees with him is ultimately diabolic. My riposte was that he will probably respond to this letter just like he responds to all criticism. He will put me down as "bleeding-heart" or "slovenly". That's his standard answer to everyone who says or writes anything about him except the most fawning praise.

To get even the simplest message into the consciousness of the worst sorts of bloody-minded cretins there are it has to be repeated at least fifty times. Now, I don't want to insult your intelligence by telling you the following fifty times, but I want to provide some balance to Deku's one-sided expostulations. I want to do this not because I need to tack another line onto my résumé but because if Deku's thinking were cerebral rather than glandular, he wouldn't consider it such a good idea to convince others that bumptious politicasters are the "chosen people" of scriptural prophecy. Deku supports a wide variety of metanarratives. Some are spleeny; others are cankered. A few openly support Lysenkoism. To be honest, he is extraordinarily brazen. We've all known that for a long time. However, Deku's willingness to make a big deal out of nothing sets a new world record for brazenness.

I find Deku's cacoëthes loquendi most irritating. Think I'm exaggerating? Just ask any of the most valuable members of our community and they'll all tell you how the purpose of this letter is far greater than to prove to you how stubborn and grotty Deku has become. The purpose of this letter is to get you to start thinking for yourself, to start thinking about how prudence is no vice. Cowardice—especially his vulgar form of it—is.

Produce a large number of thoroughly wayward extravagancies, most myopic indecencies, and, above all, the most superstitious blasphemies against everything that I hold most sacred and most dear if you like, Deku, because I simply don't care. Much of his behavior is not rationally calculated to be of benefit to the confused swaggerers whom he claims to be trying to help. (Note the heroic restraint stopping me from saying that I find Deku's bons mots rather minatory.) Which brings me to my point. Deku's favorite buzzword these days is "crisis". He likes to tell us that we have a crisis on our hands. He then argues that the only reasonable approach to combat this crisis is for him to marginalize and eventually even outlaw responsible critics of postmodernist devil-worshippers. In my opinion, the real crisis is the dearth of people who understand that Deku claims to have data supporting his assertion that obstructionism can quell the hatred and disorder in our society. Naturally, he insists that he can't actually show us that data—for some unspecified reason, of course. My guess is that he's hiding something. Maybe he's hiding the fact that many people have witnessed him convict me without trial, jury, or reading one complete paragraph of this letter. Deku generally insists that his witnesses are mistaken and blames his gin-swilling double standards on the most brainless wheeler-dealers you'll ever see. It's like he has no-fault insurance against personal responsibility. What's more, Deku may have access to weapons of mass destruction. Then again, I consider him to be a weapon of mass destruction himself.

Deku wants to create a Frankenstein's monster. What's wrong with that? What's wrong is Deku's gossamer grasp of reality. His morals serve as a stepping stone to world government. And who will compose that world government? A ruling class consisting of stultiloquent, obtuse jackanapes and dissolute scroungers. It is true that he wishes he could buy "ethnic cleanser" at the grocery store, but society must soon decide either to place a high value on honor and self-respect or else to let Deku rally for a cause that is completely void of moral, ethical, or legal validity. The decision is one of life or death, peaceful existence or perpetual social fever. I can hope only that those in charge realize that Deku once said that he knows the "right" way to read Plato, Maimonides, and Machiavelli. Oh, please. I'm just glad I hadn't eaten dinner right before I heard him say that. Otherwise, I'd probably still be vomiting too hard to tell you that Deku plans to subject human beings to indignities. The result will be an amalgam of overweening ruffianism and contentious communism, if such a monster can be imagined.

Please don't ask me to promote group-think attitudes over individual insights. I simply can't do that. It's not just that smarmy grizzlers have traditionally tried to piggyback on substantive issues to gain legitimacy for themselves but also that someone has been giving his brain a very thorough washing and now Deku is trying to do the same to us. Mark my words: his pleas are based on hate. Hate, immoralism, and an intolerance of another viewpoint, another way of life. Deku presents one face to the public, a face that tells people what they want to hear. Then, in private, he devises new schemes to pit the haves against the have-nots.

One need not look any further than Deku's viperine maneuvers to see that the cardinal rule of Deku's pronouncements is that intrusive parasitism is the only thing that matters. He vehemently denies that, of course. But he obviously would because he has no discernible talents. The only things Deku has definitely mastered are biological functions. Well, I suppose he's also good at convincing people that all it takes to start a rabbit farm is a magician's magic hat, but my point is that I defy the mutinous annoying-types who deflect attention from Deku's unwillingness to support policies that benefit the average citizen and I defy the powers of darkness that they represent. If I didn't sincerely believe that some of Deku's lickspittles once admitted—after considerable tergiversation—that yes, he had secretly plotted to shatter other people's lives and dreams, then I wouldn't be writing this letter. Isn't it interesting which questions Deku dodges and what tangents he goes off on? Those dodges and tangents make me think that Deku used to be a major proponent of collectivism. Nowadays, he's putting all of his support behind mercantalism. As they say, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Due to the power relationship between the dominator and the dominated, Deku's mentality reminds me of the stereotypical bureaucrat who cannot function unless he can "find it in the manual". Get that straight, please. Any other thinking is blame-shoving or responsibility-dodging. Furthermore, name-calling and a general lack of respect for the opinions of others are a clear indication of insecurity. I trust that I have not shocked any of you by writing that. However, I do realize that some of my readers may feel that much of what I have penned about Deku in this letter is heartless and in violation of our Christian duty to love everyone. If so, I can say only that some people have said that the grossly fallacious reasoning behind Deku's invectives can be confirmed by some simple fact-checking. Maybe. But I'm more inclined to believe that besides being blatantly sexist towards the female gender, Deku is completely shallow. So what's the connection between that and Deku's ballyhoos? The connection is that mass anxiety is the equivalent of steroids for him. If we feel helpless, Deku is energized and ramps up his efforts to damage the self esteem and physical health of millions of young men and women.

I have the following to say to the assertion that it's okay if Deku's taradiddles initially cause our quality of life to degrade because "sometime", "someone" will do "something" "somehow" to counteract that trend: Baloney! The whole premise of Deku's hijinks is false, and his arguments are specious at best. I indisputably want to talk about the big picture: I have never read anything Deku has written that I would consider wise, logical, pertinent, reasonable, or scientific. His statement that he is beyond reproach is no exception. What's more, he has been trying for quite some time to convince us that he has mystical powers of divination and prophecy. I suggest he take this rotting ordure and dump it where he and his fellow goofy perverts congregate. At least then we could protect the interests of the general public against the greed and unreason of the most mawkish grafters you'll ever see without having to worry that he will make self-satisfied fault-finders out to be something they're not. Summa summarum, Mr. Deku McJohns, Esq.'s publicity stunts turn the stomachs of those who know even a little about the real world.
 

KY_Des

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
775
Location
Wichita, KS
Speaking of Dittos. I want Link dittos with Legan too =O
BS. I called him in the Kahoka thread. Plus my Link is better than your Link. It can kinda recover now XD

On top of that, our Link ditto is in remembrance of Arkive.
<-<-LP Get over here T.T
I miss that foo.

Here here to Kyle. I totally agree that if MK was that broken, any n00b can use him and beat someone that is of higher skill.
I'm Kyle... and I **** MK's. Only MK that wrecks my **** is M2K. I hold up pretty good against Dojo, Domo, Infinity, and Affinity (lol rhymes).

MK is broken. He's just not so broken that a ban is necessary currently.
Lol whatever. I'm done with that. But Future started it >_>.


PS - Anyone else in STL mains Snake? Or is it just me?
I second Snake. It's pretty good... I think.

i just wanna trash talk people more.

hey kyle you suck LOL
Not nice T.T

awwww yyyeeeaaaahhh!!!
Greatest thing evar. Saved.

KY <3's St Louis.
 

MetalMusicMan

Sleepwalk our lives away.
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
5,643
Location
St. Charles, Missouri
OMFG HAI2U KAI. Remember when me and Legan played you and Domo in Teams and we went to Corneria...

and you were all like "I'M GONNA INFINITE LINK AGAINST THE WING-WALL AS PIT" (only you didn't say it out loud, so it was all like, a surprise and stuff)

and Legan was all like "HALP! I'M BEING INFINITED AGAINST THE WING-WALL AS PIT!"

and I was all like "WAIT. YOU CAN BE INFINITED AGAINST THE WING-WALL BY PIT!?!??!"


Then Legan died. Then I died.


Quite the revelation.


Yeah, that was good times.
 
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