St.Louis Area Discussion Thread

[Zozefup]

Snake would definitely win most of the tournaments if MK was banned. Diddy would be much lower tier if MK was banned (Snake is his worst match up, and everyone would play Snake). There aren't many Falco mains in the US, and I doubt many would pick him up. Wario would be a solid character, but he has a very high learning curve, so I doubt many new players would pick him up. Marth still has trouble dealing with Snake and DDD (which would be 80% of the players), so he still wouldn't be winning many tournaments.

The only character that would do well besides Snake, is DDD. So DDD and Snake would win 80% of tournaments if MK was banned.


edit: Actually, I just looked at olimar's match ups. Olimar would be an extremely solid character if MK was banned. Probably like 3rd tier. THAT'S WHY COOK WANTS MK BANNED!!

 

[Nuris]

they should just make it the standard at brawl tournaments that every character is banned except captain falcon

 

[TP]

Snake would definitely win most of the tournaments if MK was banned. Diddy would be much lower tier if MK was banned (Snake is his worst match up, and everyone would play Snake). There aren't many Falco mains in the US, and I doubt many would pick him up. Wario would be a solid character, but he has a very high learning curve, so I doubt many new players would pick him up. Marth still has trouble dealing with Snake and DDD (which would be 80% of the players), so he still wouldn't be winning many tournaments.

The only character that would do well besides Snake, is DDD. So DDD and Snake would win 75% of tournaments if MK was banned.

I disagree. All characters except MK have hard matchups. Snake has a hard time with DDD and to a lesser extent ROB. DDD still has to deal with Falco. Diddy, as you said, has Snake. ICs also have Snake. Marth has DDD (I disagree with Snake countering him, but this is a small point). What you end up with is a LOT more people actively using secondaries. Obviously people like Ally are fine with going all Snake, but I would not be surprised if Snake/Falco became the smartest move you can make.

 

[Daniel_the_Seraph]

they should just make it the standard at brawl tournaments that every character is banned except captain falcon

That's an odd way to spell Ganondorf.

 

[Nuris]

no one likes ganon but his gay little fanboys gtfo loolololololololollolololollololol

 

[TP]

That's an odd way to spell Ganondorf.

Man I tell you, there is nothing I would rather see than-

no one likes ganon but his gay little fanboys gtfo loolololololololollolololollololol

Falcon-only tournaments.

>_>

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I disagree. All characters except MK have hard matchups. Snake has a hard time with DDD and to a lesser extent ROB. DDD still has to deal with Falco. Diddy, as you said, has Snake. ICs also have Snake. Marth has DDD (I disagree with Snake countering him, but this is a small point). What you end up with is a LOT more people actively using secondaries. Obviously people like Ally are fine with going all Snake, but I would not be surprised if Snake/Falco became the smartest move you can make.

Marth has no bad matchups. DeDeDe is not a threat to Marth. Marth's matchups overall are actually better than MK's overall.

DeDeDe has a lot worse time with IC's than he does with Falco. DeDeDe vs Falco is maybe 35:65, but probably just 40:60.

A character having all 50-50 matchups makes him BALANCED, not BROKEN.

 

[Teh Future]

marth has like two 55-45 matchups at the wooooooooooooooorst imo probably better br00ken lets ban him oh wait no one plays him nevermind

Obviously the solution to the problem is................

play smash64

and ban pikachu f******

 

[Nuris]

smash 64 is def a bad game, banning pikachu would just make fox b0rken

 

[Teh Future]

well obviously all smash games are horrible

 

[Nuris]

ya we should just all play street fighter...
wait...
fuuuuu-

 

[Tmacc]

Ganon has great fan boys!! Yes.

 

[alt-F4]

ya we should just all play street fighter...
wait...
tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger

there you go... fixed

 

[Nicole]

I can't guarantee anything, but it would definitely be close. Snakes usage % alone would sky rocket with MK not taking up such a big part of that chart.

If you think that if MK was banned, the majority of those players would flock to someone besides Snake / Wario / Falco / Diddy / Marth, then you're crazy. (random side argument, make Marth S tier already, jesus)

That would still leave a VERY large chunk of the usage %'s in Snake's favor. Not like MK is now, but certainly "bannable" by the claims that people make about MK's usage %'s.

The only character that would do well besides Snake, is DDD. So DDD and Snake would win 80% of tournaments if MK was banned.

Guys, LOTS of characters would do well besides SNAKE. Snake is really ****in' good, but he can be timed out/out camped...beaten, really. Someone like ROB, Peach, Falco...they can all resort to time outs if need be. I don't know that doing that would be necessary, but Snake will never dominate the way MK does. All the characters Will listed would be popular, but so would several of the mid tiers - ROB, Toon Link, GW (who, though he'd still have to deal with Snake and Marth, would actually be somewhat playable with MK gone), Zamus, Kirby, Peach. If you think that character diversity would be contained to 5 characters, you're crazy.

Snake and DDD? DDD would not be that big of a problem - not by a long shot. He still has to contend with Falco, Olimar, and several other EVEN matchups. He does not and could not dominate. As for Snake, I already said what I thought of him - yes, he is really good and totally gay. But there are characters than CAN take him head on, such as Marth, Wario, and Diddy, and those that can't can time him out or out-camp him - Snake does not have the superior speed, aerials, or tornardo that MK does, which allows MK to thwart opponents trying to time him out with a much higher success rate than Snake possibly could have.

 

[Cook]

Plus, if everyone that plays MK now went to either Snake, Diddy, Falco, Wario, or Marth then that would at least be FIVE characters instead of ONE. Not that I think that would even be the case. What about DDD and ICs, for instance? Plus, it's not like the people who used to main MK would be the only ones winning tourneys. People who currently main other characters could have a chance of winning tourneys.

Also, Marth can def be counterpicked. First of all, I know DDD, ROB, and Snake are all considered to be 55:45 at least against Marth by a lot of people. Some people think Marth has the advantage against all these characters. I personally think that Snake for sure is a slight advantage for Snake, and the others COULD have a slight advantage. I dunno about other characters, whether anyone else beats Marth or not. Anyway, Marth can also be counterpicked by stage. MK can't. So yeah, I really don't think Marth could dominate in the same way. Nor could Snake, since he can be counterpicked with characters and stages. Without MK the counterpicking system would actually WORK.

 

[MentokJebus]

Also, Marth can def be counterpicked. First of all, I know DDD, ROB, and Snake are all considered to be 55:45 at least against Marth by a lot of people. Some people think Marth has the advantage against all these characters. I personally think that Snake for sure is a slight advantage for Snake, and the others COULD have a slight advantage. I dunno about other characters, whether anyone else beats Marth or not. Anyway, Marth can also be counterpicked by stage. MK can't. So yeah, I really don't think Marth could dominate in the same way. Nor could Snake, since he can be counterpicked with characters and stages. Without MK the counterpicking system would actually WORK.

just out of curiosity from an non-brawl perspective, why is MK not stage counterpickable?
pick someone with projectiles and FD and proceed to camp? pick stage with small blastzones to kill him at 80%?

 

[Cook]

MK is great on FD against characters like Olimar and Falco (projectile characters) because he can camp the air so easily and platdforms don't limit his approaches. Small blastzones HELP, yeah, but it also just means that character gets killed earlier. Halberd is really the only level where the lower ceiling makes a big difference, and MK will usually ban it against characters that kill off the top. If you want a stage with short blastzones on the side (like Pictochat, maybe) then MK also kills faster with d-smash and shuttle loop. Actually, even with a low ceiling shuttle loop and glide attack will kill faster off the top. It can help a little, but doesn't really make a big difference. But yeah, FD is great for MK against projectiles (except MAYBE bananas).

 

[MentokJebus]

MK is great on FD against characters like Olimar and Falco (projectile characters) because he can camp the air so easily and platdforms don't limit his approaches. Small blastzones HELP, yeah, but it also just means that character gets killed earlier. Halberd is really the only level where the lower ceiling makes a big difference, and MK will usually ban it against characters that kill off the top. If you want a stage with short blastzones on the side (like Pictochat, maybe) then MK also kills faster with d-smash and shuttle loop. Actually, even with a low ceiling shuttle loop and glide attack will kill faster off the top. It can help a little, but doesn't really make a big difference. But yeah, FD is great for MK against projectiles (except MAYBE bananas).

camp...the...air? is that what the game is like now? How can a Falco(for example) not hit MK with a flat stage and infinite bullets?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Falco can hit him on FD. Air camping isn't the problem there. As Mentok said, infinite ammo and being able to jump as high as MK can makes it not a problem to hit him out of the air there. It's sometimes hard to get around MK's dair while he's air camping, but you can do it and it's not that bad.

The problem on FD is how easy it is for MK to approach because he doesn't have any platforms to get in his way. That's not a huge problem, but it makes me have an easier time fighting MK on battlefield--I'm not sure that all Falcos feel that way, though--some may have a fine time against MK on FD. I'm not sure on that.

Anyway, MK is counter-pickable. He has stages he does bad on. Japes, for instance. He's not terrible anywhere, but there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Ripple]

Anyway, MK is counter-pickable. He has stages he does bad on. Japes, for instance. He's not terrible anywhere, but there's nothing wrong with that.

coughrainbowcough

10s

 

[Cook]

Lol, Japes. Unless you go to another IA tournament, Hot Dickings is the last tournament you go to that will have that stage legal. What stage is MK bad on that is actually used at tournaments?

And air camping is basically just jumping around and avoiding everything; having infinite air dodges makes it way more possible in Brawl than in Melee.. MK's d-air and multiple jumps make him really good at air camping. Anyway, yeah, the lack of platforms makes FD not very good for projectile characters against MK. Or at least Falco and Olimar, for instance. Maybe Snake does better on it? I dunno, it's still even at best.

 

[Nuris]

this debate is getting real tired guys

 

[Cook]

It's not like there is limited space for posts in this thread or that anyone is forced to read anything that we write. Seriously, I don't understand when people complain about their threads being filled with stuff they don't want to read. Is there some rule somewhere that says we can only discuss ride situations and make fun of Brawl in the St. Louis thread?

 

[Nuris]

um... that's not what i said...

 

[Nicole]

Hey David, if you show up to this thread within the next 10 - 30 mins, go tell Hylian that Peach is S-tier.

 

[darkatma]

so who's planning to come tonight?

 

[_OraNoS_]

as in Friday? (or do you have your settings on PST?)

 

[Book!]

Binyan - When/where?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Lol, Japes. Unless you go to another IA tournament, Hot Dickings is the last tournament you go to that will have that stage legal. What stage is MK bad on that is actually used at tournaments?

And air camping is basically just jumping around and avoiding everything; having infinite air dodges makes it way more possible in Brawl than in Melee.. MK's d-air and multiple jumps make him really good at air camping. Anyway, yeah, the lack of platforms makes FD not very good for projectile characters against MK. Or at least Falco and Olimar, for instance. Maybe Snake does better on it? I dunno, it's still even at best.

He doesn't need to be bad on any stage. He's even on almost all of them. There are weird stages like RC etc. that he has advantages on, but on most CP's he's pretty even. It puts a lot of emphasis on winning the neutral against him, but MK is not the only character where winning the neutral is such a big deal.

coughrainbowcough

10s

lmfao, oh the pain, the agony!!!

 

[Nicole]

Hmm, nobody debated what -I- said.

IT MUST BE RIGHT!!

 

[Teh Future]

Hey David, if you show up to this thread within the next 10 - 30 mins, go tell Hylian that Peach is S-tier.

wat is this i dont even........

and you guys are arguing about the same thing going over the same stuff as before. Thats ******** on everyones part from the cats that have to skim over long pointless points to the cats writing it

 

[Nicole]

He said that ICs beat Peach .

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Hmm, nobody debated what -I- said.

IT MUST BE RIGHT!!

lol, i didn't notice your post, sorry. I didn't check all the previous ones because I'm writing an article for a new pro gaming site that might be picking me up as a freelance writer for Quake Live. Wish me luck!

 

[Nuris]

and you guys are arguing about the same thing going over the same stuff as before. Thats ******** on everyones part from the cats that have to skim over long pointless points to the cats writing it

I think this post is pretty intelligent.

 

[Hylian]

He said that ICs beat Peach .

No actually, I've never said that.

If you'd like to try and find where I said that to quote it feel free. I don't understand.


Edit: Even if I did think that(which I don't, I think it's even) I don't know why you care so much about my opinion to the point where you judge me for it. Chill.

 

[Cook]

This thread would be boring without any debating.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

No actually, I've never said that.

If you'd like to try and find where I said that to quote it feel free. I don't understand.


Edit: Even if I did think that(which I don't, I think it's even) I don't know why you care so much about my opinion to the point where you judge me for it. Chill.

Nicole is just a very caring person, lol

This thread would be boring without any debating.

Yes.

 

[darkatma]

give me a call when you guys wanna start.

 

[Nuris]

lets start now

 

[Dart]

so ripple says we may or may not be heading down today. I guess we'll know soon enough after he's shagging his woman. yeah, i said shagging, big whoop wanna fight about it?