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Smash Champion
I'd prefer NOT to have seventeen minute matches.
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SSBM: Stage Banishment and Reasoning
- Thread starter AlphaZealot
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True, but Fox is more agile, and can just shoot a laser at the start of the match and run. Falcon can't change directions as fast, or use projectiles.
SirPenguin
Smash Journeyman
Just wanted to let you know, I recently did an interview with AlphaZealot about this very topic, but for Brawl.
Check it out here: http://brawled.blogspot.com/2007/11/smashes-my-bros-feature-stages-and.html
Check it out here: http://brawled.blogspot.com/2007/11/smashes-my-bros-feature-stages-and.html
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
This is very nice, I will correct my stages slightly, what AZ said impressed me greatly.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
I edited some stuff in accordance to AZ's interview and what Jammer said.
****, I'm so sorry about the double post, I though I was editing my other post.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
zOMG! Hyrule is in Brawl!!! IT MIGHT BE TOURNY LEGAL! WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE!
And now that i got that out of the way, you guys don't need to spam saying it
Hyrule is not tourney legal, regardless. The small changes he was talking about is in considering to the physics/collision system. Just like DK 64 level in Melee. The ledges are slightly and a little harder to grab on to. It also states "for those who like pursuit" which we don't in tournaments.
And unrelated. I always understood Battlefield in melee as slowly rising up for some reason, which is why you miss the edges sometimes.
And now that i got that out of the way, you guys don't need to spam saying it
Hyrule is not tourney legal, regardless. The small changes he was talking about is in considering to the physics/collision system. Just like DK 64 level in Melee. The ledges are slightly and a little harder to grab on to. It also states "for those who like pursuit" which we don't in tournaments.
And unrelated. I always understood Battlefield in melee as slowly rising up for some reason, which is why you miss the edges sometimes.
SinisterLizard
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2007
- Messages
- 805
Tournaments based upon percentage wins are pretty dumb. Percentage is almost meaningless in Smash. It's just a matter of the likelihood of being KO'ed.
Having the entire match be about have a slightly lower percentage than the opponent is pretty lame if you ask me...
Having the entire match be about have a slightly lower percentage than the opponent is pretty lame if you ask me...
ihavespaceblondes
Smash Master
Exactly. That's why stages where that's extremely likely to happen are turned off. It almost never comes up on the legal tournament stages. I've had it happen to me personally only twice that I can remember, and both matches were Peach vs Samus on Dreamland 64.
Stupid Marth.
Stupid Peach.
Stupid Fox.
Stupid Marth.
Stupid Peach.
Stupid Peach.
seeing as I hate Marth and peach in favor of more manly characters anyway, (and Falco is conveniently not listed)that can be disregarded.
I do believe that SinisterLizard has a point. Tournaments should not be based on percentage leads, but by KO leads, just like in a time match (if you killed him more than he killed you, you win) I believe that also in time mode, it doesn't make a difference if P2 had 3% whilst P4 had 596%. it'd still say: SUDDEN DEATH!! GO!
Anwyays, I'm glad Hyrule's back, and there are some stages I'm glad are banned.
is Gay-nbow Cruise banned? I hate that level.
=2007=
Stupid Peach.
Stupid Fox.
Stupid Marth.
Stupid Peach.
Stupid Peach.
seeing as I hate Marth and peach in favor of more manly characters anyway, (and Falco is conveniently not listed)that can be disregarded.
I do believe that SinisterLizard has a point. Tournaments should not be based on percentage leads, but by KO leads, just like in a time match (if you killed him more than he killed you, you win) I believe that also in time mode, it doesn't make a difference if P2 had 3% whilst P4 had 596%. it'd still say: SUDDEN DEATH!! GO!
Anwyays, I'm glad Hyrule's back, and there are some stages I'm glad are banned.
is Gay-nbow Cruise banned? I hate that level.
=2007=
Sliq
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 4,871
It is a lot less lame than super sudden death mode.
Except that tournaments are played via STOCK matches.
What happens when both players have 1 stock when the timer runs out? What then?
You can miss the edges on BF by getting too close to them. There was a post around not too long ago that explained that all characters have two boxes attached to them. One in front and one behind. These I'll label as "grab" and "don't grab" (since this is the default assignment for the latter, in all but a few upB cases). When characters pass by ledges, they grab the ledge when their "grab" box lines up with the ledge. But they will fail to grab the ledge, even if the "grab" box lines up, if the "don't grab" box lines up with the ledge (again, except for some upBs), presumably to prevent characters from grabbing ledges from behind during free fall. Battlefield suffers from a lack of any sort of constraining wall below the edge that allows many characters to accidentally overlap the edge with both their "grab" and "don't grab" boxes, causing a failure. This will evidently be rectified in Brawl with the ability to grab ledges from either direction at any time.
SinisterLizard
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2007
- Messages
- 805
Quoted for agreement.
Yes, having to KO the other person for the lead is what makes it exciting. Just trying to get a little bit more percent, and then delaying defeats the purpose of the game. I know most people don't do this, but this is the kind of thing that turns a fun game into a lame elitist bore-fest.
How do you figure? It's the same thing...first hit wins. Just like in percentage. At least in this way, we know both players were close enough to have the same number of kills...
Sudden Death. Pretty obvious...then (see above).
ihavespaceblondes
Smash Master
Alright, so let's pretend that Sudden Death decides the match when both players have the same stock and time runs out. So now the person who has 90-100% damage on his last stock will run from the person who has 0% on his last stock, so that the match will turn even at 300% each as soon as the timer runs out. How is that any different?
NES n00b
Smash Master
That is way too random. One hit kills which heavily favor the faster character and makes everyone go to 300% no matter what the difference in percent both players had. Not to mention that bo-ombs start falling randomly in the general area around the players.
Plus, that also leads to delay type stuff once you think about it. I am at 200% because my opponent did not use a finishing move after comboing me and now has a hard time edgeguarding me or hitting me with a good kill move. With ten seconds left on the clock and my opponent at 10%, I decide to stall the match by making it so my opponent cannot catch me through whatever means. Now, we are at supper sudden death and I have a much better chance at winning now.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
You do know this is a tournament match, right? Fun isn't the issue, it's the fairness of it that matters. If you are in the lead, then you should be awarded the victory. Keep in mind though, these kinds of matches don't occur in friendlies and very very rarely occur in actual tournament matches as well. I will even agree that it's lame and that it's boring, but that is the only true fair way to deal with it.
thesage
Smash Hero
Where is the Sheik, IC, and Falco in that statement. Fox isn't gay. It takes a lot of skill to actually be good with him. And Peach is not that gay, srsly. D-smash is not the only thing Peach's do (and definetely isn't as broken as Sheik's).
Sliq
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
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- 4,871
Wow, IHSB just *****.
Red Exodus
Smash Master
I like the current way it is, by percentage, not by KO or whatever else.
If you took that long you must be doing something wrong anyway.
If you took that long you must be doing something wrong anyway.
Really? I have not once notice this happen to me. I guess a lot of the time I've gotten stuck underneath Battlefield, but I was sure that was my fault (and I still think it is).
Is Battlefield banned because of this? If so, then I am very surprised. I play on Battlefield all the time, and I've never had that problem.
ihavespaceblondes
Smash Master
No, it's not banned, it's one of the six stages on random. Also, most casual players don't notice it very often because they don't try to sweetspot the edge very often.
thesage
Smash Hero
Yah, I think it's the most banned random though, that or YS or FD.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Rofl, Peach's Dsmash owns Shiek's by a mile.
Fox is easy once you get his basic techskill down. Same goes for falco. IC's are hard to control, not gay.
gamer8
Smash Lord
Shouldn't this be in the Super smash bros melee discussion?
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 10,479
Well, it is quick lesson for those wondering how Brawl stages will be banned in tournaments. It is not meant for the Melee community necessarily.
Philosophize
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2006
- Messages
- 148
Alpha, could you be more specific when you say that characters like Marth and Peach can camp better than other characters on stages with divisions?
Also, I don't agree with some of your reasons for stages that stop campers. Like Onett...a fox doesn't have to jump or completely vacate his camping spot when a car comes along, he can just roll, shield, or sidestep without moving. Same with the claptrap in Kongo jungle.
Also, I don't agree with some of your reasons for stages that stop campers. Like Onett...a fox doesn't have to jump or completely vacate his camping spot when a car comes along, he can just roll, shield, or sidestep without moving. Same with the claptrap in Kongo jungle.
extremejon
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2007
- Messages
- 3
Hey, I'm new here, and I read through that list...
I'm a bit confused, all of the reasons you gave for stages being broken involved Fox. Wouldn't it be much less hassle just to ban Fox? Then you'd be able to play on just about any stage.
I'm a bit confused, all of the reasons you gave for stages being broken involved Fox. Wouldn't it be much less hassle just to ban Fox? Then you'd be able to play on just about any stage.
ihavespaceblondes
Smash Master
This has already been answered at least a few times. Summary:
1. On Hyrule Temple, banning Fox just means that the next fastest character becomes unbeatable. And most of the other stages just list him because he's the easiest example of why the stage is broken.
2. Most people would rather ban 10 stages than 1 character.
Pantsmann
Smash Lord
ok. i was going to go through and comment on almost every post complaining about tourney rules. but then i realised that there are important things that have been left out which i should comment on first. fox is just the easiest example. these stages are not just banned cause of one character. all walk off stages are also broken for people with good throws, DK, kirby. there are just too many cheap stupid tactics that you can use on those stages to win. sure you may say "oh but pros know how to get around those things" but the fact is, that they're still cheap and stupid and easy kills against pros. ganon can get a LOT of one hit kills on walk off stages. so a noob can just make 4 flukes, and he's won. it never happens, but we want to eliminate that possibility.
secondly, banning techniques happens. that's done with stalling. also, i think that running around hyrule over and over would be classed as stalling and would in a real match cost you the game. Hyrule is a huge map, and kills are hard to get on it. so matches are also more likely to run out of time. this simple fact means that you just need a slight lead and you've pretty much got the match. especially if you hide down the bottom, it can take minutes to kill you, therefore giving whoever in lead an even greater advantage.
Tournament goers all want the rules to suit them best. They don't want the possibility of losing because of random stage movement. they would feel cheated out of their victory. all my casual friends have the same thing. before going into competitive play, we all banned stages like hyrule and brinstar depths because they were obviously broken and gave people advantages which shouldnt' be there. even casual players want to win.
people generally don't ban stages because of one single character. in any matchup, hyrule is dominated by the faster of the two characters. if that is kirby and bowser, then kirby has a huge advantage. also hyrule gives players a large amount of time to position themselves, this gives another unfair advantage to the faster of the two characters no matter what the characters are.
pros are good with all chars. but this goes back to the thing about people wanting to win. everybody wants to win, so everybody wants to be able to use their best character. if everybody had to use random, the current pros would still be dominating. but like i said, everybody wants to be able to use their best character. so the rules want all the characters to be able to be used, and for them not to have unfair advantages. this way, people can use their best characters without the risk of getting unfair stages like hyrule which ruin their chances of winning.
you can't throw somebody out of a tourny cause you dont' like how they play. unless they break a rule, they stay in the tourny. so if you make a specific rule about a character, then people will find a way around it. so it's just much easier to ban the stage. one rule, instead of six, to fix the one problem.
tourny goers are more likely to complain about cheap than casuals. this is because tourny goers want to win more. we care about if the game becomes slightly unfair. we care about if it becomes random. because it affects how much we enjoy the game. we also don't force casuals to participate in tournies where this fun happens.
pros like to have fun. chu knew how to wobble for years, but you hardly ever saw him use it to kill in a real match. pros have sportsmanship. they're not necessarily the ones that would use the "cheap" tactics to win. it's everybody. even casuals do that sort of thing. i know all the casuals i played with tried every single cheap tactic they could to win a match. banning these things means that you have to be more skilled to win. which is what we want.
using damage to figure out who wins is just the easiest way to do it and still keep fairest matches. going into sudden death is just as fair as determining it by percentage. we have a limit on the amount of time a tourny can run for, so the rules need to fit it.
we don't care if you just play to have fun. these are tourny rules. what you say means nothing to this discussion if you aren't going to talk about tourny setting.
secondly, banning techniques happens. that's done with stalling. also, i think that running around hyrule over and over would be classed as stalling and would in a real match cost you the game. Hyrule is a huge map, and kills are hard to get on it. so matches are also more likely to run out of time. this simple fact means that you just need a slight lead and you've pretty much got the match. especially if you hide down the bottom, it can take minutes to kill you, therefore giving whoever in lead an even greater advantage.
Tournament goers all want the rules to suit them best. They don't want the possibility of losing because of random stage movement. they would feel cheated out of their victory. all my casual friends have the same thing. before going into competitive play, we all banned stages like hyrule and brinstar depths because they were obviously broken and gave people advantages which shouldnt' be there. even casual players want to win.
people generally don't ban stages because of one single character. in any matchup, hyrule is dominated by the faster of the two characters. if that is kirby and bowser, then kirby has a huge advantage. also hyrule gives players a large amount of time to position themselves, this gives another unfair advantage to the faster of the two characters no matter what the characters are.
pros are good with all chars. but this goes back to the thing about people wanting to win. everybody wants to win, so everybody wants to be able to use their best character. if everybody had to use random, the current pros would still be dominating. but like i said, everybody wants to be able to use their best character. so the rules want all the characters to be able to be used, and for them not to have unfair advantages. this way, people can use their best characters without the risk of getting unfair stages like hyrule which ruin their chances of winning.
you can't throw somebody out of a tourny cause you dont' like how they play. unless they break a rule, they stay in the tourny. so if you make a specific rule about a character, then people will find a way around it. so it's just much easier to ban the stage. one rule, instead of six, to fix the one problem.
tourny goers are more likely to complain about cheap than casuals. this is because tourny goers want to win more. we care about if the game becomes slightly unfair. we care about if it becomes random. because it affects how much we enjoy the game. we also don't force casuals to participate in tournies where this fun happens.
pros like to have fun. chu knew how to wobble for years, but you hardly ever saw him use it to kill in a real match. pros have sportsmanship. they're not necessarily the ones that would use the "cheap" tactics to win. it's everybody. even casuals do that sort of thing. i know all the casuals i played with tried every single cheap tactic they could to win a match. banning these things means that you have to be more skilled to win. which is what we want.
using damage to figure out who wins is just the easiest way to do it and still keep fairest matches. going into sudden death is just as fair as determining it by percentage. we have a limit on the amount of time a tourny can run for, so the rules need to fit it.
we don't care if you just play to have fun. these are tourny rules. what you say means nothing to this discussion if you aren't going to talk about tourny setting.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Ayo bump! Noobs get confused easily.
Hrm. Tournaments are silly.
These stages were created for basically the same reason people are banning them for! Smash Bros is never about all skill in normal play...ever. There is always the luck factor. That's what makes it Smash Bros!
These stages were created for basically the same reason people are banning them for! Smash Bros is never about all skill in normal play...ever. There is always the luck factor. That's what makes it Smash Bros!
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
This is funny, considering that you were acting all high and mighty when you claimed to know what exactly made up smash bros. Read some Mookie, yo.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
When thousands of dollars are on the line the last thing I want defining my victory is luck. Competition is all about determining who has more skill. Those levels weren't designed to see who is better, they are designed to be fun and crazy. Some are more crazy and less fun though, and all in all fun is relative in the first place. Every competitive player I know has more fun with the game with tournament rules than any casual player I have ever known.
Agh! I'm a casual player and even I hate listening to most casual players speak. I don't think a single one of them has had a relevent or poignant comment yet. This discussion is for tournaments, not playing at home on your own. If you like playing on Hyrule then PLAY ON HYRULE! Who cares if someone you'll never meet doesn't like to play on Hyrule. Casual players please think before you speak. (remember please that I have never been to a tournament, and I play Hyrule with my friends all the time.)
And to be at all on topic, I think most of the speculation on the banned stages so far is about as accurate as it can be. Though I think I agree with whoever said that walk-off edges aren't automatic bans anymore.
And to be at all on topic, I think most of the speculation on the banned stages so far is about as accurate as it can be. Though I think I agree with whoever said that walk-off edges aren't automatic bans anymore.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
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Fun is not an element of tournament play. I cannot think of a single rule (correct me if I am wrong) in place to promote fun. "Taking fun out of the game" is a pathetically weak argument against any tournament rule. As Jarrs pointed out, casual players mock tournament rulings all while forgetting that they have no bearing on casual smashfests. Play the game how you want. If you decide you want to enter the competitive smash arena, start playing by the rules.
Corax The Cold
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2007
- Messages
- 324
this is brawl disc
- Status