SSBM: Stage Banishment and Reasoning

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I don't see any reason to ban a stage for it's hazards as long as they are not based on LUCK

the ones in eldin bridge sems easy to avoid and predictable...

If they are not set on a timer, it includes randomness. I'll leave Eldin Bridge up for debate, but until someone has proven that the moblins, King Bulbin, and the teleportation are on a timer (like the YS cloud) it stays banned.

 

[RDK]

What people don't seem to get is that at tournaments, you pay a lot of money to attend, and there is a lot of money on the line....

Wouldn't you want to actually have a fair chance at victory as opposed to getting exposed to a flawless strategy on a banned level?

I don't get people sometimes.

What you have to remember is it's not actual tournament-goers *****ing about banned levels in tourneys, it's people who probably haven't even been to a tourney once in their life. Which boggle my mind, because, like, why the hell do you care, then?

 

[Gilgamesh]

What people don't seem to get is that at tournaments, you pay a lot of money to attend, and there is a lot of money on the line....

Wouldn't you want to actually have a fair chance at victory as opposed to getting exposed to a flawless strategy on a banned level?

I don't get people sometimes.

This is right, though i want to elaborate on why some people defend item tournaments now (even if i don't share the idea anymore, it's just to make each side understand the other's reasoning -or lack of it-)

People tend to bring up the Poker comparison when trying to add the luck factor in games. I did the same for some time, then realized that (besides being completely different games) that's precisely why there were items-on tournaments for a while; for people who appreciated a little random in their smash battles. But i think we all see now that no-items became the most popular. So, if you carefully see the evolution of the tournament scene, you can't really argue with their rules, even more so considering that they don't affect how one plays at home. I don't know if there still are Items-On tournaments, but they definitely were overshadowed by those with No-items and banned stages. It was a sort of natural selection, if you wanna see it that way.

 

[Red Exodus]

I made that point in a different form earlier, I told the guy he should host a no holes barred [minus controller unplugging, etc.] tournament with a decent prize and see what happens.


Also note, we have stage builder now so we can possibly have thousands of neutral stages as well as some counterpicks.

We could probably post pics and descriptions of our stages [or just send them to a tournament organizer] and decide if it's unique and good enough to be used in tournaments everywhere.

 

[RDK]

I made that point in a different form earlier, I told the guy he should host a no holes barred [minus controller unplugging, etc.] tournament with a decent prize and see what happens.

Again, I don't see why they care so much. The majority of the people who argue this don't even regular the tourneys. At the most, they've probably only been to one, and it was enough to whet their distaste for a more "sterilized" version of Melee.

 

[Red Exodus]

That's so true. I play on counter and banned stages all the time, I don't play Fox anymore and I casually play Falco so it's not like the tactics work for me.

Although, I remember playing in Hyrule yesterday and this guy thought the area in the bottom would save him but all it did was help me combo him to death as he bounced back and forth.

 

[EpicE]

Again, I don't see why they care so much. The majority of the people who argue this don't even regular the tourneys. At the most, they've probably only been to one, and it was enough to whet their distaste for a more "sterilized" version of Melee.

100% signed!

I care because I do infact go to Tornys on the regular, going on 2 years now but I mean Brawls a new start and a chanmce not to get ***** by the best mabe all these peoples care because they actually plan to attend some shiz now and go pro, haha.

 

[volbound1700]

In tournaments, you usually want to play as your best character. You want the biggest chance of winning the tournament you've got.

BTW, we DO play outside of tournaments and we DO play with other characters. If I played with the same character over and over again I'm pretty sure I'd get bored. I don't think there's anybody who plays one character.



There are competitive Mewtwo players. People have discovered tactics on banned stages that are unfair. Ness has the potential to **** on the IC's stage and I'm pretty sure you have no idea why. If you're so well rounded explain to me plz. If you claim to know more about all the characters than I do about my mains please give me an in-depth character matchup of one character. Give a list of good and bad counter-pick stages and explain why.

And people do play multiple characters in tournaments... Some players are even famous for using a wide variety of characters (Azen, Captain Jack, and to a lesser extent Redd). I play Ness, Peach, and Jigglypuff in tournaments.


Strategy game /=/ Fighting game. Besides, at least from my knowledge of AoE2, the civilizations weren't that different. Like only Byzantines were bad... It also depends on what tournaments you're talking about. Like if the players are actually competitive and playing for money. It doesn't sound like you were...



You obviously do not know about stalling, camping, and how important positioning is in smash bros. Those are the reasons why there's a 8 min. time limit on stock matches. The banned stages make these tactics broken. And no you can't ban these tactics. There's too fuzzy a line between using a tactic, and not using a tactic.



Now I'm confused. You pick random when other people play with "mains"? And why do you think pika is a good character?



I don't see how that's anything to brag about. Pikachu has disadvantages in all of those matchups. That's like saying I beat Bowser with Sheik.

You misread my posts. I stated that a lot of people I play against play as Pikachu and I tell them not to because Pikachu is bad. Most of them played 64 a great deal.

Also Byzantines rock in AoE if you use them right (cheap Castle and Imperial age upgrade). Mayans, Aztecs, Teutons, Celts, and sometimes the Spanish are terrible to play as. However, I played Age of Empires Rise of Rome mostly competitive and in their tournaments you had to pick random civs, even if you ended up with a crappy one like say the Greeks, that was just the way the dice rolled.

Also you can turn off the time limit or make it an hour or so. That stops camping. In Goldeneye everyone camped in the Complex stage when they took the lead so we banned it and people stopped, instead of banning the Complex.

 

[Bajef8]

then why did you make the rule where if it's a tie, the player with the lowest damage wins? just get rid of that rule or play the sudden death that comes up. then most of those stages would be playable.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

then why did you make the rule where if it's a tie, the player with the lowest damage wins? just get rid of that rule or play the sudden death that comes up. then most of those stages would be playable.

Sudden Death favors the worse player, because of the homicidal bob ombs. Also, can we please forget this whole arguing and discuss the brawl stages?

 

[Takalth]

then why did you make the rule where if it's a tie, the player with the lowest damage wins? just get rid of that rule or play the sudden death that comes up. then most of those stages would be playable.

I countered that point on page 8 with this comment:

In that case, you use lame laser tactics to get them to about 200% while you're at 0%, fight until you get the kill (as you will get the first kill unless you REALLY suck), then revert back to lame tactics with a 1 stock advantage. It's a bit harder to win but still gives you a ridiculous advantage.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I countered that point on page 8 with this comment:

Also, Sudden Death is not fair. Bump.

 

[Egret]

Well, if you are playing at hyrule in the match where the sudden death occurs the cave becomes a "bomb shelter" which is pretty funny but doesn't do much for balancing sudden death. Anyways the fox player could just learn the run away tactic and practice only good sudden death strategies in which case they'd still have a huge advantage over the other player. (Or all players could prepare for sudden death but then you just have sudden death tourneys.)

 

[AlphaZealot]

then why did you make the rule where if it's a tie, the player with the lowest damage wins? just get rid of that rule or play the sudden death that comes up. then most of those stages would be playable.

I'm going to bring up a really old example that Chillin brought up in another thread recently. At DCSS 1 (back in 2003) Wes was losing to ChuDat 3 stocks to 1. Wes managed to make a comeback and when Chu was at 1 stock 0% he was at 1 stock 120% and the time ran out. It went to sudden death and Wes won. ChuDat clearly outplayed him during the entire match, but because of sudden deciding that 0% = 120%, ChuDat lost.

I've seen a tournament here and there use a "one stock sudden death will be played in the event a match ends with each play on the same stock and being seperated by no more than 30%".

 

[volbound1700]

I'm going to bring up a really old example that Chillin brought up in another thread recently. At DCSS 1 (back in 2003) Wes was losing to ChuDat 3 stocks to 1. Wes managed to make a comeback and when Chu was at 1 stock 0% he was at 1 stock 120% and the time ran out. It went to sudden death and Wes won. ChuDat clearly outplayed him during the entire match, but because of sudden deciding that 0% = 120%, ChuDat lost.

I've seen a tournament here and there use a "one stock sudden death will be played in the event a match ends with each play on the same stock and being seperated by no more than 30%".

Turn off time for stock matches. I did on my Cube. We never run out of time in stock matches.

 

[Red Exodus]

Turning off time would make tournaments take longer on certain matches, basically it's a way to ensure matches, and in turn tournaments, don't go on too long.

EDIT: Man this post sounds stupid, I hope it makes sense.

 

[volbound1700]

Also you could have called the match pre-sudden death as well. Fact is though if that guy won in sudden death then he deserved to win. In sports all the time teams out play the other and then sometimes lose it in the last second.

 

[greenblob]

The problem with sudden death is that it evens out the playing field. If you made a comeback, great, good for you. But if the game helped you make that comeback by suddenly evening out the playing field, that's something that we don't want.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Come on, let's get back on Topic:

Since we're supposed to be discussing Brawl stages, I'll give my take:

Battlefield: Random, same as in melee, the glitchy edges might be gone.

Lylat Cruise: Random, Seems a lot like Battlefield.

Yoshi's Story: I hope the clouds are on a timer. Random or CP, though I think Random

Delfino Plaza: Like Mute city, but without cars. The walk off sides aren't bad since there's no waveshining. Counterpick

Skyworld: counterpick, because of hyrule teching, and the overall weirdness.

Smashville: Very Balanced, Random

Eldin: Banned, hazards seem like a big deal

Norfair: Banned, MASSIVE hazards.

WarioWare: The whole stage is about randomness and randomness = bad

PS 2: From what I hear, there are some hazards, so maybe counterpick

Halberd: From Gimpyfish's report, the hazards aren't that big of a deal and it could be counterpick

Shadow Moses Island: I have no Idea, but I would go for banned because of the walls, and hazards (there are some, right?)

New Pork City: Banned, Camping squared.

Picto Chat: Banned, seems like a lot of hazards

The Summit: Looks like a counterpick stage to me, as it moves in cycles and not randomly. Looks sorta like Dream Cruise or whatever it's called in melee.

Fire Emblem: Counterpick or Banned. If it changes as much as it did in the demo, I think that this will be banned, but otherwise probably counterpick

Did I miss any? Discuss.

Can we pleeeeeeeeze discuss the stages? All we seem to be doing is arguing about rules that are nigh perfect and don't matter much anyway as Brawl is coming out soon. I want other peoples' opinions on the way I banned stages.

 

[Gilgamesh]

I don't know how camping will turn out in New Pork City, it seems like if you stay in one platform for too long, the Ultimate Chimera will get you. But i guess that would fall into the random and hazard categories instead. and it would end up being banned too.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I don't know how camping will turn out in New Pork City, it seems like if you stay in one platform for too long, the Ultimate Chimera will get you. But i guess that would fall into the random and hazard categories instead. and it would end up being banned too.

Even if that didn't fall under hazards, you could camp without staying in the same spot because the stage is so huge and has so many platforms.

 

[Wazoo21]

Almost every stage in Brawl so far moves in some way. It'll be down to Battlefield, Poke Stadium and FD 2.0 thrown together in stage builder in 30 seconds.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I can't read.

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

[Sliq]

I can't read.

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

[Red Exodus]

I can't read.

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Almost every stage in Brawl so far moves in some way. It'll be down to Battlefield, Poke Stadium and FD 2.0 thrown together in stage builder in 30 seconds.

1) A stage moving does not mean that it should be banned.
2) Only a few stages move; your statement is BS
3)PS2 is looking iffy because of hazards

 

[Malkun]

we will see what happens i guess

 

[xelad1]

We shouldn't forget that stages can be built, and I see no reason why some intrepid designers can't come up with some interesting tourney neutral stages which can be easily shared through wiis, and become tournament standards.

 

[Geno_Fanboy777]

well that makes me sad

 

[Infinite-one]

If a player was truly good, they could play on any stage and win.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I also can't read.

You poor fellow. How are so many unfortunate, illiterate people finding these boards lately?

 

[Infinite-one]

You poor fellow. How are so many unfortunate, illiterate people finding these boards lately?

Sorry, I'll read through it now, I guess.

 

[Infinite-one]

I just hope you don't expect me to read through the entire topic.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I just hope you don't expect me to read through the entire topic.

Actually, I expcet you to do not only that, but also not double post.

 

[Infinite-one]

My apologies.

 

[Jammer]

Woah, everyone here is in a bad mood. I guess that's kind of normal, considering we are debating about Brawl stuff, but still, it doesn't look very good.

I didn't read the whole thread (only the last few pages, which had pretty much no real information--just bickering), so sorry if this has been said before (as in, don't be a jerk and quote me as saying "I can't read", durrr):

First, did anyone else notice that two-thirds of the stages in Melee are banned because they give too much advantage to Fox, if AlphaZealot is to be believed (and there's no reason not to believe him)? You gotta love Fox, but his shine, laser, and super-powered upsmash and uair have to make you wonder.

Second, it seems to me that Sakurai has addressed almost every problem with stages, except for randomness. I know we all hate random stages. There is a plus side, however: transforming stages break stalemates and make it impossible for a "defender" to keep his or her lead without a fair fight (read the first post if you don't know what I mean). While I thought it was annoying at first, I'm really starting to come around to the whole transforming stage thing.

If we don't immediately ban stages because they're "too random", I'm thinking we'll be able to use 90% of the stages in tournaments. Which would be nice.

 

[d0c926]

At least i know y that these boards are banned in tournys, but half the stages on this list all fun

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Come on, let's get back on Topic:

Since we're supposed to be discussing Brawl stages, I'll give my take:

Battlefield: Random, same as in melee, the glitchy edges might be gone.

Lylat Cruise: Random, Seems a lot like Battlefield.

Yoshi's Story: I hope the clouds are on a timer. Random or CP, though I think Random

Delfino Plaza: Like Mute city, but without cars. The walk off sides aren't bad since there's no waveshining. Counterpick

Skyworld: counterpick, because of hyrule teching, and the overall weirdness.

Smashville: Very Balanced, Random

Eldin: Banned, hazards seem like a big deal

Norfair: Banned, MASSIVE hazards.

WarioWare: The whole stage is about randomness and randomness = bad

PS 2: From what I hear, there are some hazards, so maybe counterpick

Halberd: From Gimpyfish's report, the hazards aren't that big of a deal and it could be counterpick

Shadow Moses Island: I have no Idea, but I would go for banned because of the walls, and hazards (there are some, right?)

New Pork City: Banned, Camping squared.

Picto Chat: Banned, seems like a lot of hazards

The Summit: Looks like a counterpick stage to me, as it moves in cycles and not randomly. Looks sorta like Dream Cruise or whatever it's called in melee.

Fire Emblem: Counterpick or Banned. If it changes as much as it did in the demo, I think that this will be banned, but otherwise probably counterpick

Did I miss any? Discuss.

@Jammer: You have a point. Transforming=Good. Random=Bad. What do you think of my stages?

 

[Jammer]

I would say that you're a little zealous when it comes to banning stages because of hazards.

I don't think Eldin should be banned because you'll be able to see the Orc thing coming from a mile away, unless if there's some kind of infinite shine-like combo that we can use to push someone off the side at 0% percent.

I agree that Norfair will probably be banned.

Wario Ware? Hmm... While it is random, I'm not sure if it gives much advantage to one player. Pokemon Stadium has random changes (but you see them on-screen first), and we still play that one. It'll probably be banned, though.

Shadow Moses Island: I really would like to see this one kept, at least as a counterpick. The only real problem I see is it favoring characters with good upsmashes and uairs (like Fox in Melee).

New Pork City: Yeah, probably banned.

Picto Chat: Probably banned, but if it follows a set pattern and doesn't move too quickly, maybe not.

Overall, I'm much more lenient than you, Witchking, when it comes to banning stages due to hazards. I think your idea is to ban all stages with hazards that greatly affect gameplay. While that is a fine system, I'm not sure if I agree.

 

[Popertop]

Have you seen the size of Hyrule?

You can run in circles around the stage... combine this with the fact that Fox is the fastest char out there, and you have a broken tactic.

Falcon is actually faster.