SSBM: Stage Banishment and Reasoning

[volbound1700]

Also the reason why a lot of Newbs choose link (for example in that library tournament) is because Link is dominate against the Comps, far more so then fox. I could play level 9s all day and kill them with Link. However, against people, Link is average... his tier ranking is about right.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Also the reason why a lot of Newbs choose link (for example in that library tournament) is because Link is dominate against the Comps, far more so then fox. I could play level 9s all day and kill them with Link. However, against people, Link is average... his tier ranking is about right.

Don't talk bull****. Link doesn't do any better vs. CPUs than other chars. Every character ***** cpus. There are no tiers vs. CPUs.

About learning to play all characters.... Not only are some matchups extremely unfair (Shiek vs. Bowser anyone?) but the characters are so different and some require so much different tech skill at higher levels that it's just not viable. Also, Age of Empires has less than 26 civilisations.

 

[volbound1700]

Don't talk bull****. Link doesn't do any better vs. CPUs than other chars. Every character ***** cpus. There are no tiers vs. CPUs.

About learning to play all characters.... Not only are some matchups extremely unfair (Shiek vs. Bowser anyone?) but the characters are so different and some require so much different tech skill at higher levels that it's just not viable. Also, Age of Empires has less than 26 civilisations.

Assyrian 15% speed rate for villagers was highly unfair in AOE but we still did random.

It is like Poker, people put money into that and it is chance.

Basketball is chance, sometimes you hit the shot sometimes you don't

Fact is, the pros have changed the rules of Melee to make a mode that suits their method of playing. If they were really that good, then they could overcome a Bowser v. Shiek matchup. Try different tactics no one uses. For example, Bowser needs to make power shots on shiek, shiek is a lot faster then bowser but if you get just a few shots off on Shiek you can KO her. Also look for items to help.

Also note: No characters ra.pe comp like Link (maybe Marth as well). However, you can dominate comps with most the characters (Pichu is one that I have a hard time winning with).

Plus no one I know plays Timed, stupid fox laser would not work in time. The reason we went to Stock is because Time is unfair.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Plus no one I know plays Timed, stupid fox laser would not work in time. The reason we went to Stock is because Time is unfair.

If you were truly skilled, you could overcome the "unfair"ness of time mode.

>_>

 

[XCWarrior]

I have seen some terrible thread topics in my time having used Nsider forums for a couple of years. But this, this might be the worst thread ever.

As EA said, "If it's in the game, it's in the game." Not using everything in the game is under utilizing the game.

Be ashamed of yourself for wasting so much time on useless nonsense.

 

[XCWarrior]

If you were truly skilled, you could overcome the "unfair"ness of time mode.

>_>

It's good to change it up. And time is BETTER than stock because if you screw up early on and kill yourself, time gives you a chance to recover. Stock does not as much.

 

[Classic-Black]

The problem with banning stages due to random events is that that is a part of sports. You can't help fumbles or random mistakes in football, that is just part of the game.

To ban Ice Climber's stage or the F-Zero Blue Car stage because unforeseen events may come is stupid.

your analogy fails. The field doesn't cause a fumble in football, it's the player. Most of the tourney stages are designed so that if you lose, it's your fault, not the stage

 

[XCWarrior]

your analogy fails. The field doesn't cause a fumble in football, it's the player. Most of the tourney stages are designed so that if you lose, it's your fault, not the stage

I can't tell if you are arguing for or against having Ice Climbers stage, but you are the one wrong about the fumbling and the field.

If it is super muddy or snowy, the field might cause the player to slip, which might cause them to let go off the ball, i.e. fumble.

So yes, the field at times can cause fumbles.

And stop using fail... you sound like a moron.

 

[Classic-Black]

I'm going by what I usually see, and I haven't seen/played many games where it was super muddy or snowy so it's boiled down to a player misstep or miscalculation. In which case the analogy did fail.

and for future reference, don't double post, you have an edit button for a reason

 

[Tony_]

Here's a **** good idea. Ban Fox and Falco from tournies. THEN its more balanced than before.

I await a BS response from anyone.

 

[Classic-Black]

Ban them and the next fastest character/spammable takes their place

 

[Tony_]

Ban them and the next fastest character/spammable takes their place

So? We get a ****ton of stages back and it becomes more balanced.

 

[Classic-Black]

how do you figure? most of the banned stages are that way because the faster character has a clear advantage. If you took Fox and Falco out of the equation, it'll be rinse repeat with someone like Shiek (or anyone with a projectile in terms of spam) or Falcon (in terms of speed). It does'nt become more balanced

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

So? We get a ****ton of stages back and it becomes more balanced.

Who's "we"? Do you even play in tournaments?

 

[Tony_]

Who's "we"? Do you even play in tournaments?

We means the players smart one. Not just tournament players.

how do you figure? most of the banned stages are that way because the faster character has a clear advantage. If you took Fox and Falco out of the equation, it'll be rinse repeat with someone like Shiek (or anyone with a projectile in terms of spam) or Falcon (in terms of speed). It does'nt become more balanced

ALso, I didn't mean ALL the stages I meant some. Like, alot of them would comeback. And yes it does. More later.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

We means the players smart one. Not just tournament players.

But you said "We get a ****ton of stages back". When did the non-tournament players ever lose stages in the first place?

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Since Flatzone had those stupid tools....



CURSE YOU STUPID TOOLS!!!

 

[Gilgamesh]

Yeah, i don't get it.

I don't expect pro-level players to tell me what stages to play and which items to use (or not to use, in this case). I play casually with my friends so they pretty much have to respect that.

Following the same logic, as a casual player i don't see why i should come here and argue about tournament rules. If i don't play at tournies, the least i could do is to be respectful of competitive players and let them play the way they have agreed to. If they're not messing with my gaming style, i shouldn't be messing with theirs. It's about respect.

This was actually a good thread made to explain the Stage regulations in tournaments. If someone is a casual player like me, and doesn't play in tournaments, then i don't see why you should come to argue in this topic; just leave each other alone.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Who's "we"? Do you even play in tournaments?

No, he doesn't. Tony likes to make fun of the "tourney-***s."

As Gilgamesh pointed out, both sides of the schism should just leave each other alone. Let casuals be casual and the competitive/"pro" people be...well, competitive/"pro." Video games are just meant to be played; whatever the players do with these video games is solely dependent on them. So, in essence, there is no right or wrong way to play them.

I don't know how many times this has to be said. I also don't know how many times people are going to come in here, start the same argument, and repeat it ad nauseam.

Smooth Criminal

 

[volbound1700]

Good point about time. I play with time but none of the people I play with like it. Usually we do 5-7 stock lives. So therefore you can make up for the lost life. However with timed, you can kill one person and then avoid fighting or just hold them off. You have to be aggressive and take the person out in stock or else the game doesn't end.

 

[volbound1700]

Under the logic of banning the stages... poker and blackjack should not even exist and no one should beat money on them because you cannot choose your cards and it isn't fair

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Under the logic of banning the stages... poker and blackjack should not even exist and no one should beat money on them because you cannot choose your cards and it isn't fair

For the love, stop using card game analogies! Smash is not Poker! Poker is obviously for those who like all the random chance.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

Since when do poker and blackjack have anything to do with smash bros? Yeah, thought so.

Anyway, I do play tournaments, not often (planning on MUCH more often when Brawl comes along) but I do participate in them and respect the official rules. If I wouldn't respect the rules, why would I bother to attend?
Likewise, as stated a trillion times before. We're not telling casual players how to play the game. When I play with my friends, half of the time it's tournament rules to practice. But the other half it's items on, all stages on and usually lightning melee or slow melee. Tournament rules never interfered with my playstyle outside of them... except for my practice sessions, but that's only natural since "competition" implies that you train your skills to be the better player.
As for all the "OMG if yur s0 pr0 why dun j00 b3 pr0 0n 4LL t3h st4g3s?" comments ; The real pro's would probably still win from non-professional players on every stage, simply because they have more experience. These ruleset is applied to "professional versus professional" matches. (or at least "competetive versus competetive") In these matches, players are often very close to each other in terms of skill and therefore the randomness of the playing field has a much bigger impact on the outcome of the match.

Example:
One player's "skill level" (there is no such as skill levels (I know I'm gonna get a 9000 joke here...) but suppose skill is something you can accurately measure just for this example) is 49 and the other player's skill level is 51. Then there's playing field in which certain random events can give any player a "+10 bonus." Random event happens, the player with skill level 49 get's the bonus, he now has an advantage over the other player where he normally wouldn't have of his own.
Now suppose one player's skill level is 10 and the other's is 90. Even with a "+10 bonus" the former player would be horribly owned by the other (4 stocked even, when you calculate this).
See the point? The ruleset is so randomness or chance would have less or no impact on players who are close to equal in terms of skill. (Hope this made sense)

As for "then don't be cheap!"... Well, the game "allows" me the opportunity to be cheap, so why wouldn't I take it? There is no deus ex machina game mechanic that will prevent me from using cheap tactics, hence, I use them because I can. Also, as stated again a trillion times before, the line to be drawn here would be a blurry one, opposed to stage banning where the line is as clearly drawn as you can get.
And hey, I'm a Kirby main, I use every cheap advantage I can get to win

And as for the fact that owns them all but many people fail to grasp: "Nobody forces you to come to tournaments or play by those rules in your own environment, we thank you for you understanding."

Also, nobody says you can't host your own items-on/all stages allowed/free for all tournament. If you want to, what's holding you back? Feel free to do so!

Now as for the actual main topic which is how the common sense applied to stage banning in Melee will be applied to Brawl stages...

I predict (EMPHASIS on PREDICT):
Battlefield = Legal (Besides graphics it's unchanged)
Smashville = Legal (Final Destination with an AC background and a platform)
Lylat Cruise/Pleiades = Legal (Final Destination with three platforms)
Delfino Plaza = Legal (It moves yes, but no real hazards or unfair advantageous spots)
Castle Siege = Debatable (The movement isn't a problem, the roof and basement aren't either, the middle room might be...)
Summit = Banned (A whole lotta whackiness going on here)
Mario Circuit = 75% chance banned (Shy Guys and ledgeless)
New Pork City = Banned (Hyrule Temple X2 with an instakill stage hazard)
Rumble Falls = Debatable (Depends on the speed of the stage's movement and it's hazards on the way up)
Norfair = Debatable (Tidal waves of Lava)
Skyworld = Debatable (I heard you can meteor smash/spike someone through the clouds)
Yoshi's Island = Legal (The Ghost doesn't give a real unfair advantage)
Pokemon Stadium 2 = Debatable (Much whackier than the first one)
Bridge of Eldin = Banned (Length, ledgeless, bombs, arrows, bridge being destroyed)
Halberd = Debatable (Depends on how the cannon works)
Helipad = Debatable (Depends on how much of a hazard the Metal Gears and Spotlights are)

There... Darn that was a long post O.o

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Banana_Dragon wins.
Double Flawless.
F A T A L I T Y

 

[Takalth]

Amazing how much you can learn about something by looking at their join date. Every time I see somebody attacking competitive players and asserting the moral superiority of items and banned stages, they've always joined within 3 months.

The casual vs. competitive war has been going on much longer than that, so why don't the casuals have any veterans?

It's a regular pattern. Whenever a thread has a lot of posts, there's always something to argue against that you at least have a shot at sounding 1/4 intelligent. Once it settles down a bit, the thread dies when a competitive player makes these points:

1. It's not affecting your games, so why do you care?
2. We have more fun this way. Why should we put the game on settings where we have less fun.
3. Competitives will beat casuals, regardless of stage or item settings. If you don't believe me, go to a tournament, repeat what you've said on Smashboards, and many people there will gladly educate you in an items-on game on Big blue (or any other banned stage).

These points have already been made (most recently by buzz, Banana Dragon, IHaveSpaceBalls, and Gilgamesh). I'm just putting them in their simplest form.

So, if you want to tell us how our playstyle is wrong or how we're only good if we're playing Fox on Final Destination, I dare you to directly challenge one of those three points. (more likely, though, I just killed the thread, at least for a couple weeks).

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

*prints off Takalth's remarks, signs it, frames it, hangs it on the wall*

The only weapon casual smashers seem to have is their smack talk in a forum. Competitive smashers bring up the fact that we have actually traveled to various states smashing, and casuals say "that means nothing". Everyone needs to cover a region and just travel around squashing inexperienced players. Setup a service where noobs can request a local competitive smasher to come educate them.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Yeah, I know, I read your article which linked me to that one. You need to relax. The internet isn't serious business until you make it so. =/

That article is the perfect troll for anyone on SWF that plays competitively.

lol I am relaxed, they pushed me when I was angry got a reaction and screenshotted all my responses. You could do that to anyone who's addicted to smashboards.

But yeah I let it get to me too much, and I was more worried about brawl before gimpyfish's impressions thread. now im looking forward to it and definatly trying to not be SERIOUS BUSNIESS.

Example:
One player's "skill level" (there is no such as skill levels (I know I'm gonna get a 9000 joke here...)

For sure. First thing that comes to anyones mind.


edit :

Guys dont forget this one :

"SSB is the tourneytard game for fa**ots who suck at every other Fightin' game in existence. Basically SSB tournaments are a desperate grasp for some kind of achievement in their pathetic lives."

We're the elitists remember.

 

[RDK]

lol I am relaxed, they pushed me when I was angry got a reaction and screenshotted all my responses. You could do that to anyone who's addicted to smashboards.

But yeah I let it get to me too much, and I was more worried about brawl before gimpyfish's impressions thread. now im looking forward to it and definatly trying to not be SERIOUS BUSNIESS.

Lol, that article they wrote about you was actually slightly funny, Dylan. Except all the crap they made up.

But if you think that was bad, you should seee the crap they wrote about me.

1. It's not affecting your games, so why do you care?
2. We have more fun this way. Why should we put the game on settings where we have less fun.
3. Competitives will beat casuals, regardless of stage or item settings. If you don't believe me, go to a tournament, repeat what you've said on Smashboards, and many people there will gladly educate you in an items-on game on Big blue (or any other banned stage).

1. Because they feel that everyone else needs to be lowered to fit their own standards, so that they have some sort of chance without actually applying themselves.

2. See #1.

3. It all kind of goes back to it's not so much that they don't like "glitches", it's the fact that they've either (1): tried advanced techs, and had such a short attention span that they gave it up and, instead, started arguing against using them, or (2): never used / tried to use advanced techs in their lives before, and are just arguing about something they know nothing about.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

For sure. First thing that comes to anyones mind.

Too bad the internet doesn't have an intonation feature because I can't really tell whether this was said in an amusing tone or a bothered tone.

If you were bothered by that single phrase, well, I've seen people on these boards where this actually "is" the first thing that comes to their mind whenever they read a paragraph that either has the word "power" or "level" in it. Just poking some friendly fun at those.

Now, to stay a bit on the original topic, I see that I forgot about discussing WarioWare and Pictochat.
Well, both will probably be banned in my opinion, seeing as how they are both very random... I mean, come on, characters getting blown away or burned by doodles? Or a stage that incorporates 5 second minigames? Yup, can't get much whackier than those (I'll heavily enjoy them in casual play though)

 

[thesage]

However, sounds like the experts and pros would not be good if you actually played brawl in other ways. They are only good at player their certain way with their certain characters.

In tournaments, you usually want to play as your best character. You want the biggest chance of winning the tournament you've got.

BTW, we DO play outside of tournaments and we DO play with other characters. If I played with the same character over and over again I'm pretty sure I'd get bored. I don't think there's anybody who plays one character.

Sounds like if I played them in a banned staged and we both had to play Mewtwo for example, I might have a shot. At least in my mode, you have to be well rounded.

There are competitive Mewtwo players. People have discovered tactics on banned stages that are unfair. Ness has the potential to **** on the IC's stage and I'm pretty sure you have no idea why. If you're so well rounded explain to me plz. If you claim to know more about all the characters than I do about my mains please give me an in-depth character matchup of one character. Give a list of good and bad counter-pick stages and explain why.

And people do play multiple characters in tournaments... Some players are even famous for using a wide variety of characters (Azen, Captain Jack, and to a lesser extent Redd). I play Ness, Peach, and Jigglypuff in tournaments.

That was logic behind Age of Empire tournaments online. True experts could play with any civ on any game mode (outside Deathmatch which was a very different gmae although you had DM tournaments seperate from Regular Mode and DM had their own experts). Now yes, sometimes experts would get a civ like Assyria for example or Choson but if you were good enough you could overcome them and beat them, if not then better luck next year, that was how the ball bounced.

Strategy game /=/ Fighting game. Besides, at least from my knowledge of AoE2, the civilizations weren't that different. Like only Byzantines were bad... It also depends on what tournaments you're talking about. Like if the players are actually competitive and playing for money. It doesn't sound like you were...

Same way with my mode in melee (btw we played stock matches not timed so fox run strategy would not have worked),

You obviously do not know about stalling, camping, and how important positioning is in smash bros. Those are the reasons why there's a 8 min. time limit on stock matches. The banned stages make these tactics broken. And no you can't ban these tactics. There's too fuzzy a line between using a tactic, and not using a tactic.

sometimes the ball just don't bounce your way. Sometimes I would end up with Pichu or Bowser against a player with Fox or Pikachu (for some reason a lot of people like to play him as a main that I was up against, I think it was from 64 smash,

Now I'm confused. You pick random when other people play with "mains"? And why do you think pika is a good character?

I would always kill people with Pikachu as Fox, Marth, or Link).

I don't see how that's anything to brag about. Pikachu has disadvantages in all of those matchups. That's like saying I beat Bowser with Sheik.

 

[FightingGameGuy]

I see no point in banning stages in Melee. So what if some opponent uses a cheap move. The change of that happening is about 5%. Also, I have been playing Melee for a long time and I use most of the characters. Why take out the fun stages? Melee is suppose to be a party game not a fighting game like Marvel vs. Capcom 2 or Neo Geo Coliseum. Also, people that actually go to the Smash tournaments are 1% of Smash players. Lastly, I think nothing should be banned in Melee or Brawl. If you see a fighting game like Marvel vs. Capcom 2, nothing is banned not even the God tier characters like Storm or Cable. And infinites are allowed in the touraments. Another thing is I do not get annoyed if people use cheap tactics to win. To me it is just a game. Also, this is my opinion about the banning of stages which is that no stage should be banned. The game is supposed to be fun not boring.

About banning stages in Brawl:
I also think that no stages should be banned. If nothing was banned then more people would go to Smash tournaments and more people would come to this site.

And if I get flamed for this for expressing my opinion and being called a noob, I don't really care what you say to me. There would be no point and I will ignore you.

Edit: Also, the percentages I made are guesses.

1. These are bans for tournament play. No one says you have to play by them when you play with your friends.

2. In tournaments percentages do matter. Since these are for tournament play, where matches are played with Stock but with a time limit where tie-breakers in stock are decided by percent every percent matters.

3. Plenty of things are banned in MVC2, dead body infinites are (where you kill someone then just juggle his dead body till the timer runs out, preventing your opponent's other characters from ever fighting). Its essentially the same uncounterable run-down the clock nonsense as what causes most of the banned stages to be banned.

4. This opinion stuff is nonsense. You put forward an argument not an opinion. You should expect and want people to debate it with you.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Too bad the internet doesn't have an intonation feature because I can't really tell whether this was said in an amusing tone or a bothered tone.

If you were bothered by that single phrase, well, I've seen people on these boards where this actually "is" the first thing that comes to their mind whenever they read a paragraph that either has the word "power" or "level" in it. Just poking some friendly fun at those.

Ah I regret the lack of vocal intonation via the internet myself friend.

I was amused, not bothred. Ovar 9000 makes me chuckle almost everytime, just not when I see it like 30 times in a day lol.

 

[RDK]

So much lose in just one post.

I see no point in banning stages in Melee. So what if some opponent uses a cheap move. The change of that happening is about 5%.

The chance of that happening is a lot more than just 5%. People can abuse it, and it can considerably alter a match.

Also, I have been playing Melee for a long time and I use most of the characters. Why take out the fun stages? Melee is suppose to be a party game not a fighting game like Marvel vs. Capcom 2 or Neo Geo Coliseum. Also, people that actually go to the Smash tournaments are 1% of Smash players.
Edit: Also, the percentages I made are guesses.

I would hope you had just guessed, and not passed it off as fact. But nonetheless, your percentages fail, and it is obvious you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

About banning stages in Brawl:
I also think that no stages should be banned. If nothing was banned then more people would go to Smash tournaments and more people would come to this site.

The point is to not get as many people to tournaments as possible. The point is to be able to play a higher level with other higher-level people. That's the spirit of competition.

 

[Thedude3445]

There's a few of those that are unjustably banned. Most though, I can understand why. The tourneygoers just better not ban Norfair for the lava, and Delfino for the moving whatsoever.

 

[thesage]

There's a few of those that are unjustably banned. Most though, I can understand why. The tourneygoers just better not ban Norfair for the lava, and Delfino for the moving whatsoever.

Lol Norfair is definetely banned. 1 person saved from receiving damage that is described as MASSIVE DAMAGE RAWR in the update, while the other person isn't?

I don't understand people think moving stage = banned. The only moving stages that are banned are IC's stage and Big Blue (cuz they give random position advantages).

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Come on, let's get back on Topic:

Since we're supposed to be discussing Brawl stages, I'll give my take:

Battlefield: Random, same as in melee, the glitchy edges might be gone.

Lylat Cruise: Random, Seems a lot like Battlefield.

Yoshi's Story: I hope the clouds are on a timer. Random or CP, though I think Random

Delfino Plaza: Like Mute city, but without cars. The walk off sides aren't bad since there's no waveshining. Counterpick

Skyworld: counterpick, because of hyrule teching, and the overall weirdness.

Smashville: Very Balanced, Random

Eldin: Banned, hazards seem like a big deal

Norfair: Banned, MASSIVE hazards.

WarioWare: The whole stage is about randomness and randomness = bad

PS 2: From what I hear, there are some hazards, so maybe counterpick

Halberd: From Gimpyfish's report, the hazards aren't that big of a deal and it could be counterpick

Shadow Moses Island: I have no Idea, but I would go for banned because of the walls, and hazards (there are some, right?)

New Pork City: Banned, Camping squared.

Picto Chat: Banned, seems like a lot of hazards

The Summit: Looks like a counterpick stage to me, as it moves in cycles and not randomly. Looks sorta like Dream Cruise or whatever it's called in melee.

Fire Emblem: Counterpick or Banned. If it changes as much as it did in the demo, I think that this will be banned, but otherwise probably counterpick

Did I miss any? Discuss.

 

[LavisFiend]

What people don't seem to get is that at tournaments, you pay a lot of money to attend, and there is a lot of money on the line....

Wouldn't you want to actually have a fair chance at victory as opposed to getting exposed to a flawless strategy on a banned level?

I don't get people sometimes.

 

[Hyrule_mauri]

now

now that there is no wabeshine, there is no reason to ban stages were you can walk off

 

[Kentalish]

why is this in rawl section?

 

[Hyrule_mauri]

Come on, let's get back on Topic:

Since we're supposed to be discussing Brawl stages, I'll give my take:

Battlefield: Random, same as in melee, the glitchy edges might be gone.

Lylat Cruise: Random, Seems a lot like Battlefield.

Yoshi's Story: I hope the clouds are on a timer. Random or CP, though I think Random

Delfino Plaza: Like Mute city, but without cars. The walk off sides aren't bad since there's no waveshining. Counterpick

Skyworld: counterpick, because of hyrule teching, and the overall weirdness.

Smashville: Very Balanced, Random

Eldin: Banned, hazards seem like a big deal

Norfair: Banned, MASSIVE hazards.

WarioWare: The whole stage is about randomness and randomness = bad

PS 2: From what I hear, there are some hazards, so maybe counterpick

Halberd: From Gimpyfish's report, the hazards aren't that big of a deal and it could be counterpick

Shadow Moses Island: I have no Idea, but I would go for banned because of the walls, and hazards (there are some, right?)

New Pork City: Banned, Camping squared.

Picto Chat: Banned, seems like a lot of hazards

The Summit: Looks like a counterpick stage to me, as it moves in cycles and not randomly. Looks sorta like Dream Cruise or whatever it's called in melee.

Fire Emblem: Counterpick or Banned. If it changes as much as it did in the demo, I think that this will be banned, but otherwise probably counterpick

Did I miss any? Discuss.

I don't see any reason to ban a stage for it's hazards as long as they are not based on LUCK

the ones in eldin bridge sems easy to avoid and predictable...