Squirtleknight is obnoxious obv :012:. - Marth+

[GHNeko]

Maybe you're just DOING IT WRONG.

But then again, I'm not grab happy with Falco.

I just utilt when Falco gets near and everything seems to work itself out.

 

[ChaosKnight]

yea maybe i'll start doing some more of what i would do against a falco xD

like dtilt but i'll see cause it seems almost impossible to get a grab in

but i can deal with falco besides those crucial grabs you might need from time to time

 

[GHNeko]

If you do get a grab, fthrow.

Unless you're under a platform.

 

[C.J.]

New Marth is amazing. Love the new SH. And to everyone saying he's too heavy.. I'm 99% sure you mean he falls too fast... heavy is good, you live longer. But yes, I'd prefer for him to be just a very small bit floatier. Definitely not enough to encourage weaving but a little more than now.

As for his hardest MU, it's probably still MK, even then with how light he is and the nado nerfs (which is what really wrecked Marth in vBrawl), it might be even/close to even.

 

[GHNeko]

No no. MK still wrecks marth.

Shiek prob does too. 55-45 at best in Sheiks favor imo.

 

[jalued]

yeah, sheik isnt quite as hard as melee though, since her fair isnt stupidly powerful with an OP angle. so marth has a bit longer to live generally

 

[GHNeko]

Too bad his increased weight makes him Shiek's ***** on the ground.

 

[jalued]

Too bad his increased weight makes him Shiek's ***** on the ground.

yeah but we all agree that his weight is slightly too much lol. but still, yeah, he's sheiks ***** on stage, just like he's falcons ***** onstage too

 

[GHNeko]

Marth != Falcon last time i checked. :V

but w/e. I will be testing out this Marth asap.

 

[E For Eugene]

Marth != Falcon last time i checked. :V

but w/e. I will be testing out this Marth asap.

5ive's marth loses tho

 

[GHNeko]

5ive's from Canada. He sucks automatically. :V

Though he isnt the only one asking for a slightly floatier marth.

 

[Demacrez]

Yeah, Marth is feelin' a bit heavy.

 

[leafgreen386]

Wow. Tough crowd. We can't lower the grav too much on him without ruining the whole purpose of raising it to begin with, but I'll see if it can be lowered a bit. The higher grav hurts weaving, which largely played toward a defensive playstyle. It also makes him easier to combo, thus offsetting his other buffs. He does get a faster shffl game out of the deal (shifting his game more toward offense rather than defense), and retains his ability to shdf and shfu (but with considerably tighter timing), so I'm not really sure what the big problem is here, unless you're just complaining that you can't play marth defensively anymore.

 

[ChaosKnight]

lol onnly like 2 people have said that hes feeling more grav but there shouldnt. so no dont change it just let them learn and adapt

 

[5ive]

lol onnly like 2 people have said that hes feeling more grav

More like...5? But it doesn't matter. Feedback is feedback.

@Leafgreen
Learning to adapt is not the issue. If you've seen my videos, both my Marth's are pretty much considered really good.
I'm just personally not feeling heavy Marth at all in terms of gameplay. But like I said, that's just me. That said, please do what you can to find a compromise.

 

[jalued]

no

@Leafgreen

Learning to adapt is not the issue. If you've seen my videos, both my Marth's are at a considerably high level.

I'm just personally not feeling heavy Marth at all in terms of gameplay. But like I said, that's just me.

So w/e

yeah he just doesnt feel right somehow. only asking for a slight reduction on gravity, or maybe his shorthop etc needs to be changed, im not sure.

 

[5ive]

yeah he just doesnt feel right somehow. only asking for a slight reduction on gravity, or maybe his shorthop etc needs to be changed, im not sure.

Agreed on everything. The shorthop idea actually sounds really good.

 

[leafgreen386]

I just don't get it. What is it you don't like about the higher grav on marth? So far, the only thing I've heard on the issue is not being able to weave as well, which is the whole point of the new physics. If I knew what you were looking for him to be able to do I could try to find a compromise, but if I don't know what to aim for, it's tough to do anything at all. I'm looking for something specific that these physics hurt that we want to keep in his game. As long as you're not trying to play him defensively, I just don't see what there is to complain about, besides getting combo'd harder and having a worse recovery... which are perfectly acceptable nerfs. It's not like he needs more air time in order to perform staple tactics... he can still do everything he could before, only faster (except weaving, which as I mentioned earlier... was actually a target of this).

 

[5ive]

5_5
First off, we don't need to give you specific things to fix. Frankly, we can't even get more specific than, "Make him a bit lighter," unless you want us to get into numbers. The attack buffs the WBR gave were good and the weight idea was also good. The point is, the WBR over-did it JUST a tad. Marth is a bit too ****ing heavy. That's all.

The problem is that Marth doesn't really feel like Marth. Blah blah blah about bringing Marth back to his Melee days. He wasn't that heavy to make his shffl uairs effective. Yet, shffl uairs are legit with 5.0 Marth. Marth just doesn't have that elegant (LOL) feeling he had before. It again, feels really Roy like. And okay, jeez, the weaving **** I mentioned wasn't even a big point. I just sort of mentioned it...once. Yet you keep repeating it. <_>

Compromise? We just told you a compromise. Higher short hop might work.

And for ****s sake, we weren't even complaining about removing his added weight all together. We just want him a little lighter. You said you'll see what you can do, and trying it out won't hurt. I don't think all this bickering is even necessary
/nessmains

Anyways, I think Jalued summed it up.

its more about him feeling fluid in his combos and actions. he just feels clumsy when comboing with him due to his gravity. It should be slightly less so that he can really commit. Also feel that his dash attack is more than useless now, and should really be changed so as to accomodate his more "OFFENSIVE AGGRO ACTION FIGHTING" playstyle

Again, sorry if I sound a bit rude. I didn't mean to be.

 

[Dark Sonic]

simply put leaf, I think their major concern is that he's lost some flexibility in when he can perform his aerials. You kept his SHDF, and SHFU, but he now spends much less time in the air overall and thus cannot simply delay his attacks as much as before. It's a little hard to explain, but half of playing Marth is simply limiting your opponents options by simply floating there with the POSSIBILITY of attacking. It's more of an elaborate frame trap than any set shield pressure method. Spending more time in the air helps with this.

Rather than raising his gravity so much to make him spend less time in the air, you could instead nerf his weaving ability by lowering his AIR SPEED ACCELERATION, which means that any forward momentum will take longer to cancel out, and gaining any retreating momentum will take even longer.

Not sure if I was really clear in my explination, but it's kind of a hard concept to just explain. It's what brings that "elegance" that 5ive is talking about and gives Marth his appeal. Faster shffls can be done by giving him a higher shorthop and higher fullgrav (allowing him to reach the peak of his jump faster), and then just FAST FALLING. Marth is supposed to feel fairly floaty as part of the stereotypical "light on his feet" feel.

 

[Shell]

That's what I suggested a long time ago, DS. Everyone agreed it seemed like a good idea, so I dunno why it wasn't implemented. >.<

 

[ChaosKnight]

More like...5? But it doesn't matter. Feedback is feedback.

@Leafgreen
Learning to adapt is not the issue. If you've seen my videos, both my Marth's are pretty much considered really good.
I'm just personally not feeling heavy Marth at all in terms of gameplay. But like I said, that's just me. That said, please do what you can to find a compromise.

wait you are considered really really good O.O xD

man anything yall can take huh xD

 

[leafgreen386]

simply put leaf, I think their major concern is that he's lost some flexibility in when he can perform his aerials. You kept his SHDF, and SHFU, but he now spends much less time in the air overall and thus cannot simply delay his attacks as much as before. It's a little hard to explain, but half of playing Marth is simply limiting your opponents options by simply floating there with the POSSIBILITY of attacking. It's more of an elaborate frame trap than any set shield pressure method. Spending more time in the air helps with this.

Rather than raising his gravity so much to make him spend less time in the air, you could instead nerf his weaving ability by lowering his AIR SPEED ACCELERATION, which means that any forward momentum will take longer to cancel out, and gaining any retreating momentum will take even longer.

Not sure if I was really clear in my explination, but it's kind of a hard concept to just explain. It's what brings that "elegance" that 5ive is talking about and gives Marth his appeal. Faster shffls can be done by giving him a higher shorthop and higher fullgrav (allowing him to reach the peak of his jump faster), and then just FAST FALLING. Marth is supposed to feel fairly floaty as part of the stereotypical "light on his feet" feel.

Thank you. This is exactly what I was looking for. Think we can work on getting the numbers sorted out over the irc tonight?

 

[Viquey]

I just don't get it. What is it you don't like about the higher grav on marth? So far, the only thing I've heard on the issue is not being able to weave as well, which is the whole point of the new physics. If I knew what you were looking for him to be able to do I could try to find a compromise, but if I don't know what to aim for, it's tough to do anything at all. I'm looking for something specific that these physics hurt that we want to keep in his game. As long as you're not trying to play him defensively, I just don't see what there is to complain about, besides getting combo'd harder and having a worse recovery... which are perfectly acceptable nerfs. It's not like he needs more air time in order to perform staple tactics... he can still do everything he could before, only faster (except weaving, which as I mentioned earlier... was actually a target of this).

I don't see why eliminating weaving and giving his playstyle a complete overhaul (from offensively defensive to straight offensive) is the whole point of the changes, when many, and in some ways/aspects MOST, Marth mains don't want it. Speaking for myself, I play him because I enjoy him, so why would I want him to change? <.>

But meh. I've given up on Marth+. Liking Marth the character is the only reason I play him in + at all, 'cause to me, he doesn't play like the same character at all. XD But many people switch mains between vB and B+, or drop some characters or w/e. So ah well! At least Zamus doesn't feel too different~

Oh also, I have a question: are the reasons behind the changes listed anywhere? For all of B+ and individual characters, I mean; not just Marth. There are some things that make perfect sense, but then there are some things that leave me going, "What?! Why?!" I've been wondering for a while, so I figure since it's semi-related to this convo I'll finally ask. XD

 

[ChaosKnight]

eventually all the vids of me playing the new marth will be up the first one is up where i first played this *heavy* marth xD

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Hopefully if JCz can figure out that when I said that the vids start with the first Falco/Marth matches, I completely forgot to erase the Falco/Marth videos that were already on quinnydinny's Youtube page (from 6/1/09 instead of the first Falco/Marth videos from 8/19/09).

<_<


Otherwise you'll be seeing more of the *light* Marth.

Again.

 

[JCaesar]

Nah I got it TH. The replay filenames have the date in them so it wasn't hard to figure out.

First 5 vids are up on my youtube now. 4 more should be going up tonight. All quality matches.

 

[leafgreen386]

I don't see why eliminating weaving and giving his playstyle a complete overhaul (from offensively defensive to straight offensive) is the whole point of the changes, when many, and in some ways/aspects MOST, Marth mains don't want it. Speaking for myself, I play him because I enjoy him, so why would I want him to change? <.>

But meh. I've given up on Marth+. Liking Marth the character is the only reason I play him in + at all, 'cause to me, he doesn't play like the same character at all. XD But many people switch mains between vB and B+, or drop some characters or w/e. So ah well! At least Zamus doesn't feel too different~

His playstyle was given an overhaul when players complained about his playstyle and said they wanted it revamped. And now they're complaining again after he's been rebuilt >_>

Oh also, I have a question: are the reasons behind the changes listed anywhere? For all of B+ and individual characters, I mean; not just Marth. There are some things that make perfect sense, but then there are some things that leave me going, "What?! Why?!" I've been wondering for a while, so I figure since it's semi-related to this convo I'll finally ask. XD

Unfortunately, no. Only some changes have had the reasons associated with them released alongside them. The majority just end up getting explained when asked about it.

 

[ChaosKnight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8YeHzXxC0M


this match makes me all tingly XD

next time instead of trying to spike him im UP bing that mofo to oblivion :O

 

[GHNeko]

His playstyle was given an overhaul when players complained about his playstyle and said they wanted it revamped. And now they're complaining again after he's been rebuilt >_>

Because everyone gets it right the first time. :V

 

[leafgreen386]

Because everyone gets it right the first time. :V

Well, when I played marth yesterday, I was looking out for the things DS mentioned, and I can't help but say... you guys are right. He is a little bit too ff'er-ish. Definitely gonna try to work on getting that fixed soon.

 

[ChaosKnight]

whoever wanted heavy marth failed hard XD

he was fine before he was heavy

 

[GHNeko]

I didnt want a heavy marth like this.

Also, before thsi change, Campy ****** Marth > Aggro manly marth. I explain this to you.

 

[ChaosKnight]

i would love to see that in truth a campy marth was j ust a ***** marth who prolly wouldnt win in a region that was actually good

 

[GHNeko]

lmao.

Campy Marth is probably one of the safest characters in Brawl+ man.

 

[VietGeek]

campy marth is very good theoretically

offensive marth is very good in actuality

obv

 

[Plum]

lmao.

Campy Marth is probably one of the safest characters in Brawl+ man.

Until he meets a campy MK.
That's the definition of safe <_>

 

[leafgreen386]

You people need to yell at me more in the irc to get marth's physics fixed. I keep putting it off =/

=p

 

[GHNeko]

I've been busy with my dreamcast.

Grandia II is really ****ing good.

And I just got 3rd Strike and CvS2 for Dreamcast. <_>

...Though I do <3 Marth and I DO have my console back so I can actually TEST **** rather than ask other people to do it.

e____e

Dreamcast
Marth
Dreamcast...
Marth....
DREEAAAAMMCASSTTTT....
MARRFFFFF....

;___;

Get at me tomorrow leaf. <_<

 

[Demacrez]

You people need to yell at me more in the irc to get marth's physics fixed. I keep putting it off =/

=p

I've been busy with my dreamcast.

Grandia II is really ****ing good.

And I just got 3rd Strike and CvS2 for Dreamcast. <_>

...Though I do <3 Marth and I DO have my console back so I can actually TEST **** rather than ask other people to do it.

e____e

Dreamcast
Marth
Dreamcast...
Marth....
DREEAAAAMMCASSTTTT....
MARRFFFFF....

;___;

Get at me tomorrow leaf. <_<

You bunch of lazy bums. You should work til you're blind! >: (